The AIs are officially out of control

27:03And I think Hamilton has been contextualized and recontextualized a thousand times since it came out. But because it is art, it is meant to be contextualized and recontextualized in that way. When people ask Google a question, their expectation is that they will get an answer. that is not meant to be recontextualized. There's a, David, I think you're right. There's a gap there. Like what is supposed to happen here? And when the answer is a picture, there isn't a right answer as we have talked about to death on the show. I did just Google what is art. It was just a dictionary response from Oxford Languages.

27:41Oh, good. What did Gemini have to say? This was just regular Google. I will say that I asked Gemini to review the Vision Pro today, just to see what happened. And it came up with a list of what I would categorize as concern trolling privacy questions. That's awesome. It was like, you should be worried about eye tracking. And it's like, good job, Google. Thanks. Can I just say one thing that's really wild about this? I mean, like just looking at the prompts people are talking about, like show me an image of a 1943 German soldier. Show me a picture of an American woman. Show me a picture of the founding fathers.

28:16You know what those are? Search queries. Like, this is the insane thing that we're doing is, and Google, I think, is more guilty of this than most. It's trying to smush two things together and pretend that they're the same when I am looking for a piece of information that exists. Like, I would argue the right answer to show me a picture of the founding fathers is like find a picture of the founding fathers on Wikipedia and return that as the answer. Like, that feels like the closest thing to the right answer that we have to me. But if you go into this thing, which explicitly fabricates things that don't exist and you expect it to give you something truthful and real and historically accurate, you're just out of your mind.

28:53Do you know what it's bringing back? Do you remember this came up earlier this week because when I was a little kid, I was told by my Spanish teacher that people in Spain who speak with a Spanish accent, they speak with a lisp, which isn't true. It's just a different accent. It's just a different accent. But I believed that until like this week when a Spanish speaking colleague was like, you know, that's not real, right? Aren't you the one who said Barcelona on a call and we all made fun of you? I did. That's how you say it. You say it, Barthelona. I said it correctly. But then the person pointed out, they're like, that's not actually a list.

29:29And I was like, okay, cool. Wait, I was lied to by my teacher in like the 90s pre-internet. There was a time where you would just go and you would be like, this is a real thing. And no one could tell you otherwise because it wasn't in the encyclopedia. There was no internet to just go look. And so you'd be like, okay. And we're just like, we're just boomeranged back there immediately. Where the AI systems can just confidently lie to you. Yeah. Here's my segue. What if instead of lying to you, they just do unexplainable gibberish for about eight hours? Yeah. I mean, that also happened pre-internet.

30:05You just talk to someone. Oh, you're a child. No, but in this case, OpenAI just did gibberish for eight hours. And I believe they have not explained what was actually going on in chat GPT yet. Yeah, the answer seems to be just some unknown weird error. And I think the most likely candidate that I've heard is that they rolled out something new or were testing something that had an unexpected effect and they were able to roll it back pretty fast. So I think that's a reasonably likely outcome. But oh my God, it's so funny. this is so funny like somebody asked for a biography of the jackson family and you should all read the screenshot we'll put it in the post with the links but it's it goes from sort of making sense at the top to just slowly losing the plot and by the end can i just read you the last paragraph yes okay so the heading of this very last paragraph is miss ianus unkissed michael janet germain number one a pandorus of global stoves and prolific shipyard premisey schwittedly the sparkle of tourmar on the crest has as much to do with the gulver of the moon paths as it shifts from follow tibuted from blush roance and stuck to the design henials and denoted ohms filled a niche morsel of global house novi from the incubant i just want to point out i read that perfectly yeah it is really well done there was not a retake there It just completely lost everything.

31:33It lost English. It lost syntax. It lost the plot of what it was talking about. It just completely derailed itself. It did make sense when you said it, though. I feel like I understood a lot more about the Jackson family. The Henielsen denoted ohms. I feel like that is Vogon poetry from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Yeah. There's something that that sounds exactly like. And I'm pretty sure it's Vogue Hunt poetry from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Unclear why OpenAI was generating this. All I'm saying is that if you want to turn over the mechanism of culture to these systems, they should not do that from time to time.

32:17Yeah. I mean, humans sometimes do that. Don't, don't, don't. But you can at least be like, well, Gary's having a bad day. Yeah, Gary's having a bad day and drink too much. That's why you sounded like that. I sound like that when I drink too much. I was like, that's what I sound like when I drink too much. It did highlight for me that like even the people who make these things don't fully understand how they work. And they've said that like they've all been pretty open about that. They're like, yeah, we've got this cool thing. We don't entirely understand it, but we're releasing it into the wild.

32:48Go forth and enjoy it. And like that's what happens when you don't entirely understand the thing you're releasing into the wild. Sometimes it's going to fursuit gandervort soother. That's good. There we go. Yeah. I was just a little chat GPT myself. All right. Speaking of pure gibberish, we should mention that Google's names for its products are pure gibberish. I hate them. All right. Get into it. I got to get this out. If somebody came out tomorrow and if we use the same nomenclature for chat GPT and somebody tomorrow is like, we're going to do a smaller lower left chat GPT thing, it would have to be called like Chuck or like Charlene.

33:30Like it's just like there's no relation between these two. This is my virtual assistant, Chaz. Chaz, yeah. Like what the hell is this? And it's like, OK, why is it a woman's name? It starts with a G. That's it. That's all you got? You couldn't stay in the Zodiac? As a Gemini, I was already offended you stole my name. Such a Gemini thing to say. Excuse me. Stole my sign. But yeah, still, basically, I have a lot of identity attached to it because Geminis are apparently the Antichrist. But we have to defend ourselves. But then to just be like, Gemma, which is explicitly a woman's name, a lovely woman's name, feels like, one, you're gendering it.

34:12to your gendering like the free, less good one. And it's like, hey, don't do that. Stop. It's a bummer for a bunch of reasons. I totally agree. And I mean, you think about we went from the era of Siri, Alexa, Cortana, these like explicitly gendered assistants that were problematic for that reason and a bunch of others. Cortana was named after a Halo character, to be fair. uh amazon explicitly and aggressively gender selects it to be oh yeah which is very weird yeah but then we we were we were heading towards i think a slightly better place where like i still think it's ridiculous that we've allowed gpt to just become a thing people say like it just upsets me greatly that that's in the language now but chat gpt not a gendered thing not a very good product name, but not a gendered thing.

35:05Bard, eh. But then Gemini, not a gendered thing, unless you have strong feelings about the Zodiac. Yeah. Copilot. Copilot, same thing. And so it was like, okay, we're getting towards thinking of these as products, not people, which is the right strategy. And then, yeah, I agree. Gemma is a big bummer back in the wrong direction. Yeah. Also, no one can keep track of them. Yeah. On top of that. Can anybody name all of the current flavors of Gemini? Gemini Advanced Workplace. Okay. No, that's a subscription that gets you Gemini Nano. No, sorry, Gemini Ultra. But there's Gemini Ultra, Pro, and Nano.

35:44There's Gemma 2B and 7B. But coming soon, there's Gemini 1.5, which is in Gemini 1.5 Pro, which is different from Gemini 1.0 Pro. Gemini Ultra will eventually be Gemini 1.5 also. And I've lost it. That was as far as I can go. But then there's Gemini in several things. There's Gemini in Vertex, which is different from Gemini in the Gemini that you experienced. I can't, it just, you know, that thing where you like wish you could replace the nineties song lyrics in your brain with like useful information. This is how I feel about Gemini. I'm like, knowing this is making my life worse. I still remember the, the names of almost every single HTC phone.

36:22I can't remember people's faces and names, but I can, I can just rattle off. You're like, oh, the Droid Ares. That's sick. 128 gigahertz processor. It's like a real, I know it. It's in my heart. Kind of a cool phone. Kind of a cool phone. I can still do netbooks. Intel had 1.3 gigahertz processors and 1.2. But you can't do all the Gemini's. Can't do all the Gemini's. Got to go to David for that. All right, we got to take a break. This has been a very heavy first segment. We've had everything. We've had the future of the internet. We have Lin-Manuel Miranda. Just everyone, just pull over the car, listen to these ads, just breathe.

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40:22all right we're back now before i went to break i mentioned advertising yeah which i only do in the context of asking you begging you really to sponsor the lightning round which again we have yet to do but if you do it i will almost you can buy my very integrity yeah don't just say pay the money is what i'm saying but i'm aware that many listeners of our show have had some issues with our other advertising over which we have no control. But I'm happy to report that David mostly and Leon have gone and done some investigating and the problem of the repeat ads at least should be resolved. Correct me if I'm wrong.

41:04If you keep getting, I was, I mean, I'm going to say if you keep getting them, let us know, but like, oh boy, do you already? So if it keeps happening, get at me and we'll keep fighting the good fight, but hopefully it should start to get better. By the way, is that ever evidence that your phones are not listening to you? Yeah, right? Because if they were, they would stop.

41:29No, that's just ad tech gone wrong. Much like the AIs. Yeah. Just going off the rails. The ad tech is just off the rails. So we're trying to get it fixed. All right, lightning rounds doubled up. My idea was that we would just do everything on the list as fast as we could. But then David reminded me that I am the host of the show. do not have that ability. That's correct. We can't do a four-hour podcast today. All right. But I think, Alex, you and I could do four hours on your lightning round item. What is it? A hundred percent. So we talked about it briefly last week, but Vizio is definitely being acquired by Walmart for$2.3 billion.

42:07And they were really, really, really explicit that it's for the ad tech. Speaking of ad tech. Like it was not like, well, we love these TVs and just want to like improve our in-house brand and make everything better. It was this good ad tech, y 'all. We're going to make some money. And I believe even Vizio said, Walmart's approach is aligned with Vizio's mission and vision. And our technology will help bring a scaled connected TV advertising platform to Walmart Connect. So get excited. If you're a Walmart Connect fan. Can I try? Yeah. To put this in context. Attempt. That isn't bad. Yeah. I can't.

42:50But let me try. Can I try? I want to hear it. I want to hear the attempt. So we think of the big advertising companies out there on the internet as being Google and meta. I think largely. Google and meta are the big ad companies on the internet. Then there's a host of smaller ad tech vendors that don't have the technical ability to not play the same ad 500 times in a row. just putting that out there as a piece of information for you the category of advertising provider that is most competing with google and meta right now is not the small ad tech companies it's retail ad networks from amazon and walmart and best buy and others so the retailers have started to form their own advertising situations in particular amazon is one of the biggest competitors to google and meta out there right now in terms of data they're growing real fast but big companies like Best Buy and Walmart and what have you, Target, are all building these systems as well.

43:47So you go to walmart.com, a lot of what you see is basically advertising. You don't perceive it that way, but I think if you go to Amazon, you definitely have started to perceive it that way. Amazon would also love to show you more and more ads everywhere you go and do tracking and conversion so that instead of buying ads from Meta to run on Instagram that convert you into a sale on a website or a sale on Amazon. Amazon is running the ads everywhere and converting you at higher rates on its own platform. And buying Whole Foods. And buying Whole Foods. It's literally, that is essentially the same thing.

44:20Right. So you just see what's happening, right? At the end of this version of the internet is just someone's got to buy something. That is how the internet is organized. And the pressure to actually get you to buy things is going up and up and up as this version of the internet comes to whatever conclusion it's going to come to. And you can see that all over the place, that you're being pushed towards actually spending money as opposed to taking VC-subsidized free things everywhere. So if you're Walmart and you have a big retail ad network and you're looking at Amazon, which literally owns football, and everything else and has home hubs in your house, you're like, how do we get more money into our advertising system?

45:03We need to get on TVs. Yep. We need a TV ad network. So we're going to buy Vizio, which is the TV we sell the most of. And we can say to our retail ad network customers, now you can place an ad for diapers, not only on Walmart.com, but we can sell you inventory on TVs too because we do all this tracking on the TV system. Is that good? I mean, if I was an advertiser, that's super compelling as just a regular person who wants less advertising. Yeah. Turn off the Wi-Fi on your TV. Less compelling. But that is 100 % the pressure on all these companies. And if you're Walmart, you're like, oh, we can't just give the entire advertising ecosystem over to Amazon.

45:46And that is very much where Amazon is going. And I talk to these CMOs. I talk to these folks out in the world. I have them on decoder. And they're all just looking at it. And they're like, connected TV is the thing. It is the next piece of the advertising puzzle that is going to sort itself out. It's a billboard in your house is increasingly the way it's being looked at. And it shouldn't be. There's telly, right? Or that has literally a billboard in your house. Yeah. And all the only thing they're doing differently is just saying the quiet part loud. They're just like, look, you want to look at some ads?

46:17We'll give you the TV for free. And you can either make that deal or you can pay for the TV and look at ads. Like every day that goes by, I think telly is a better and better idea because it's happening to you either way. And you might as well get the TV for free. I reject that. I mean, is my LG TV currently connected to the internet? Yes. Do I get a weird little banner ad at the bottom every time I turn my TV on? Really? Why do you not connect it to the internet? That's the thing. I'm just going to go, after this call, I'm going to go disconnect it. You did a mime of an ethernet cable. Is your TV on ethernet?

46:54You know what? I need good connections. I want everything connected well. My TV is on ethernet. I don't know why. It shouldn't be on the internet, but it has to be if I want to watch Bravia Core, Sony's premium 80 megabits per second. It has four movies on it. The other day I was effectively forced to watch Zero Dark Thirty on Bravia Core because it's the only movie that's available. And then I'm pretty sure when Max wasn't eating breakfast the next morning, I did some CIA shit to her. Like straight up, I was like, your behavior will determine how you're treated. I'm like, she's eating apples.

47:27That's what happens when you watch Z-R-Dark 30 and Bravia Core in crystal clear quality. They didn't buy the Lightning Round. I just really like high-bit rate streams. Do you get an advertisement on Sony? Yeah. For the CIA? Watch a movie about torture. It was a CIA advertisement. I do turn it off in my Eero profiles when I'm not using the built-in apps. That's smart. Because I don't want the TV talking about me. I should do that. Mine is the only thing blocked on my network is my Vizio TV, actually. Do you still get packets? My LG TV just hammers that firewall with packets, even if it's not allowed to.

48:06They love to talk. Yeah, it's just like, come on. Who are you talking to? The advertisers? They want to know all about what you did last night. It was nothing. I watched K-dramas and smoked a lot of weed. That's all I did. Enjoy that fact, LG. The local bodega owners are not in the connected TV market. Yeah, they're screwed, man. Just send me one and I'd be on my way. Just some tacos. Yeah. Oh, my God. I feel really – Vizio, we did a lot of coverage of Vizio. Yeah. I wrote a feature about Vizio. We had Matt McRae, who was the old CTO of Vizio, on the show many, many, many times. They tried to get into every big market they could get into.

48:43Was it phones, laptops? We talked about this last week. And to have them become just a commodity screen advertising vendor is pretty sad. I don't know if it's that sad because to some extent Vizio was pretty prescient on this stuff. Like they were one of the first into advertising. That's why LeEcho, I love it. One of them was because of the advertising tech. Like it was always – Vizio was really good at this. They figured it out before a lot of other people and then took forever to get acquired by someone who could actually afford it. Because they were being investigated for the shady stuff they were doing.

49:17Yeah. Like I said – They were so early in learning how to trick you into getting your data. But let me give you a counter example to this. Okay. This is the longest lightning round item in there. This is why we can't do lightning round. Yeah. But let me give you the counter example to this. You can feel a lot of ways about Meta. You can feel a lot of ways about Google. They took all of the excess profit of their actual functional advertising businesses and invented a lot of stuff. Just straight up. That's fair. Like Google's like, I don't know, the car should drive themselves. Pixel phones. That's a thing.

49:50And then Google's like, ah, that didn't work and they kill it. Like Google. Meta's like, we should do reality labs. Legs. We invented legs in the metaverse, everybody. We did it. It took$20 billion. Like all of that excess cash that their advertising put out, it made them give services for free or largely free. They invested in a bunch of core internet infrastructure technology. Let them buy into a monopoly on the iPhone. Let them buy into a monopoly. Like I said, you can feel a lot of ways about those companies. Yeah. But all of the excess advertising profits they made built consumer products that people value.

50:23What did Vizio use it for? This is what I'm saying. Yeah. Right. The idea of Vizio is we'll do all these excess profits from television advertising and then we'll like make really good laptops or we'll make really good – and they just didn't do the things. They didn't even start – like even the TVs got worse. Even the TVs got worse. Yeah. We had so many commenters last week reach out and be like, yeah, I had a Vizio TV. I loved it. But then it sucked. Yeah. I'm like, oh, that's a bummer. There's something there that is just it's just sad. Yeah, it's it's super telling that the end of that idea was not Vizio said, we're going to take your advertising dollars and use them to make the TVs better, which is what it should have been.

51:00Yeah, like, that's actually a reasonable trade that reasonable people might make. Right? Like, I will, I will sign up for some version of this advertising network that is coming to me anyway, in exchange for a better and or cheaper television. And that is like a flywheel that kind of works. And Vizio just went, never mind. We're just going to keep all of that money. And we're going to keep making the TVs worse. And this is what Roku is doing. This is what the Prime TVs are starting to do. Cheap TVs that are supported by advertising are not getting better. They're getting worse. And that sucks.

51:34All right. This is my hard pivot to my lightning round item, which is once again complaining about my frame TV. Oh, God. Speaking of sucky TVs. Can you tell that I've just bought a lot of stuff for this house? I just have thoughts about all of it. The good news about this one is it was very expensive. So you really played this perfectly. Well, so no, my lightning round item is actually Samsung is expanding Orocast support across most of its devices. We haven't talked a lot about Orocast on the show. At CES, I went and visited JBL, which has Orocast support across its line. Orocast is one of the coolest standards.

52:07Like we make a lot of fun of Bluetooth on the show generally. Similarly, Oricast is maybe the coolest upgrade to Bluetooth I've seen in a long time. So it is completely vendor agnostic. You have devices that support Oricast and Bluetooth. You just push the button. They all just start playing the same music. And I've seen this demo now across brands. I've seen this demo across speakers. JBL's demo was they just had speakers in a living room, some travel Bluetooth speakers, their new speaker that can do both Google Assistant and Alexa on the same device, which is really cool. And they just put them all in the room and they pushed buttons and the Bluetooth speakers, the little travel JBL Bluetooth speakers, became the rears in a home theater situation.

52:49Okay, that's cool. It's cool. Yeah. Like that's just cool. They're able to do this using a standard. It's not some proprietary stuff. And the idea is that you should be able to do it with all the speakers you have in your house. Very cool. So Samsung is bringing ORACAST to tons of its products. And then, of course, the TVs are getting 360 reality audio in case you need. Is the Frame TV going to get AuraCast? So the Frame TV is the weirdest kind of product. I could write 10 ,000 words about the Frame TV. You're going to have to at some point. I'm obsessed with the existence of the Frame TV. The Frame TV is an old panel.

53:27Yeah. That's one of the reasons they mark it up is they take an old cheap panel. Yeah, they're just – Put a cool bezel on it. Bam. So they do some cool backlight stuff. So it goes to sleep mode. The display dims. It's matte. They've got the art store. You just said something nice about the frame TV. There is a little bit of work in the frame TV that makes people want it. Yeah. Because people watch TikTok, they don't watch their TV, so they just want the artwork. Here's the thing that is driving me bananas about the frame TV right now. When you turn it off, it is not actually off. It goes into art mode, which is its special art mode.

54:00So then when you turn it off, it goes all the way off. And then when you turn it back on again, it comes all the way back on. No art mode. Very confusing. So you have to go to get to art mode. You have to power on once, then power on twice. None of this matters if you're a normal human being. Wait, it's like the thing where you pull the light switch once and it turns on, you pull it again and it dims and then again and it's off. But then if you pull it again, it goes all the way on. That's a perfectly normal setup. That's exactly how that should work. It's confusing. But none of this matters if you're a normal human being who buys a frame TV and puts it on the wall using the Samsung frame.

54:31If you buy any third-party frame, it is more than likely that you will cover up the actual sensors that make the frame TV work, which is, of course, what we did. There is now a$99 dongle from decoframes.com. It is an external. It's called the SRS2. It's huge. It's just a sensor dongle for the frame TV. No, people hate it. You have to run another wire to TV and then put a dongle out in the room because you've covered up the sensors. So then you might think if you're like me, what you're going to do is you are already, of course, running a Raspberry Pi with HomeBridge. You'll just put Tizen into HomeBridge and control the frame TV using the other sensors that you might have in your house.

55:10And then you'll realize that Samsung has taken the art mode API out of the 2022 and up frame TVs. So you cannot just tell the thing to turn on an art mode. You have to tell it to turn on, running into the problem in which your wife keeps watching the horrible couples therapy show on Showtime and she keeps turning the TV off at night so that when it turns on at 830 in the morning when your thermostat in your bedroom detects motion, it turns on and starts playing couples therapy at you. This is very bad. And the solution to this problem is there's only two. One, you can take the frame off your TV.

55:45But Samsung doesn't sell a black frame. Or you have to tell your wife, who is a divorce lawyer, that she's turning off the TV wrong. How you doing, buddy? It's bad. The TV is just off all the time. Like, we don't know what to do. You just don't use it anymore. We've reached an impasse. Like, I'm just turning the thing on manually in the morning and leaving the house. Couldn't, like, Home Assistant change the channel for you? There's no channel because art mode is not a channel or an input. It is off. Has somebody made, like, a third-party art mode? It's just like a USB stick It's like I just wanted to get like as janky as possible It's bad No one knows why they took the API out of All they need to do is put the endpoint back on So you can just say go into Artwork Maybe it was a bug You can sort of fake it Because you can tell Homebridge This is very dumb You can create a virtual power button And have HomeKit push it but then you have to guess how the TV was turned off at night.

56:48Beautiful. It's bad. All this is bad. Oracast is good. Frame TV. Nightmare situation. Before we move on, I just want to congratulate you. In the long history of The Vergecast, you have made what I would call many of Nelai's niche complaints. That was the most niche complaint I have ever. The total addressable market of that complaint is just Nelai. It's every Frame TV owner. Every frame TV owner has its phone. They all use Homebridge. Go on to the frame TV subcorpus of Reddit, and you will see an infinite number of people. There are people in this world who have bought bulk fiber optic cable and mirrors to trick the sensors of the frame TV into seeing light.

57:35That has to be more expensive than the$90 dongle. Also, defeats the purpose of the beautiful television that doesn't look like a television. No, no, because they're drilling holes into the frame, poking the little fiber optic cable out of the frame, then running the fiber optic cable to the sensor where it shines. And this is a quote from the subcorpus post into a disco ball of little mirrors that they've made so that the sensor can detect the change in light. Because otherwise you have to have the dumb sensor dongle out in the world. That solution kicks ass. It rules. It rules. I've posted this onto the website.

58:10Are you going to build a disco ball? I've thought. Our frame is metal, so it's like drill holes. It's not great. I don't know what to do. But I will tell you one option is not you're turning off the TV wrong. No. That's a tough one. Nope. You can't do that one. It's not appropriate. Mm-mm. But the TV turning on a 3 in the morning playing couples therapy at us, also not acceptable. There's just no winning that one. Pierce, what's your light here? uh mine is a better screen you can hang on your wall that instead of causing you infinite grief will solve quite a bit of your grief uh it's the amazon echo hub which was announced a while ago and the reviews of it are starting to come out and it's starting to ship uh i love this thing and it is also like deeply funny that the echo hub needs to exist it's just a screen that you put on your wall to use to control your smart home it is it is the simplest thing you could imagine amazon basically took like a fire tablet or an echo show and just took all the features out of it except the buttons for controlling your lights and then was like do you want this to hang on your wall and everybody said yes i do and gentoo reviewed it really liked it said it has like totally fit into her life and her family's and to me this is just like we we need to finally get past the idea that oh an app for your smartphone is the solution to this problem.

59:38Like, no, it's not. Buttons on my wall are the solution to this problem. Those buttons can be on screen. That's fine. But like voice assistants ain't it. Apps on my phone ain't it. Like we need new systems for this stuff. And kudos to Amazon for having actually pushed at that. Which do you think is going to like affect more marriages? The frame TV situation or the existence of the hub? Oh, it's the existence of the Echo Hub. the number of of beleaguered partners of smart home nerds who now don't have to like okay so my sister lives in a home with someone who is big into the smart home and she had to memorize the names of her lamps so that she could tell alexa which ones to turn on and it's like there's the living room lamp but then there's the big living room lamp and if you just ask for one and not the other you're and this is terrible but you know what's great is when you can walk up to the wall and flip a switch.

1:00:34And I will happily exchange that switch for a button, but a person can figure out how to use it. And that is terrific. I had to get one of those like Hue light buttons back in the day for when I had a roommate because after multiple times of me accidentally turning off all the lights in the bathroom while she was in the shower. That's not good. Not good. We should actually just have Jen on the show so she can describe how her family deals with her job. Carefully. literally her teenage children are like, we are just going to live in the dark. We're not going to try to figure out how to do it. There's a whole lot of Jen on the show the next two weeks, by the way, so get excited.

1:01:13Here's the thing about this hub that I'm thinking about. It doesn't sit flush? It sticks out a little? It sticks out a little. You've got to power all the normal stuff about the screen on the wall. It's a product made for the Matter smart home standard, but Matter isn't good enough to support this product. Because what you want is a bunch of smart home stuff in your house and you're like, okay, I control most of it with my Android phone, with Google Home, or I control it with HomeKit on my phone, on my iOS phone. And then I bought this awesome screen from Amazon. And it's also a great smart home controller.

1:01:42And the reality of this product is like, it's great if all of your shit's in Alexa. Yeah. It does have a Zigbee radio, right? It's a matter control. It is. It's got like a ton of stuff. It's ready for the future. Of stuff. Yeah. The way you want it to work, like the way I'd want it to work, I do everything at HomeKit because the idea of getting anyone else in my family to open another app besides Control Center is not happening. I feel like... I feel like you'll probably like somebody will have a solution pretty quickly for HomeKit users and other folks to use this thing through Matter. because Matter kind of sucks, but like Homebridge.

1:02:20But Matter should be the thing. It should be, but it's. You should be setting everything up in any one of these ecosystems, and then you're like, I've added a Matter device that can see all those rooms and see all those devices, and we're so close. I feel like Jen writes the we're so close with Matter story. It's the heart of every story about these devices right now. She sighs as she writes it. She actually has an automation setup where she just sighs loudly into a microphone and Chad Chippity writes, the matter isn't quite there yet story. It's very good. All right, we should take another break and we're back with a non-gadget lightning round.

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1:06:22All right, we're back. Let me tell you about Tizen, the software that powers the frame. No. We're so close. I'm telling you, I could write 10 ,000 words about what the frame TV represents in our culture. It's going to happen at some point. Yeah. We're going to be like, Neela, you can't work at all for the next week. Just write 10 ,000 words on Visio. I like the one for me, one for them thing. You're like, okay, I wrote Welcome to Hell, Elon. A lot of people read that. That was great. Now I'm going to write a feature about Tizen. This one's for me. I've heard this. I write to David David at the verge.com if you'd like me to write 10 ,000 words about the frame TV.

1:06:59Please do. Yes, please. I'm just going to say this. I think the frame TV is Samsung's most important product. I mean, I think you're right. It is. It is by far. It is the one that they invented. They invent like they didn't. It's not a copy of anything. I know some Samsung people. They invented a lot of stuff. For example, Samsung invented the concept of taking fake photos of the moon. Very important concept. but the frame TV they just invented. There wasn't a thing and then they made a thing and then the thing is very successful. Other companies are copying the thing but it is as a cultural object that people desire.

1:07:35The frame TV is top of the list for Samsung. Remember when it was in the MoMA? That and the weird bespoke appliances they make. Oh yeah. People like those but whatever. All right. Non gadget lightning round. David, I think yours, we've got an hour to do on this one. Go ahead. Yes, easily an hour to do on this one. We're bad at lightning. I know. This one actually, I don't think will be that long. And I am desperate to hear people's feedback because I have been hearing people's feedback nonstop for two days. And I'm just a glutton for punishment. Apple launched an app called Apple Sports, which is a very simple app for seeing sports scores.

1:08:12It's not a very good app. It's missing a lot of sports. It shows lineups in a sort of deranged, nonsensical way. but it does in fact for some sports sometimes show scores and there is either less to this app than i think and it's just kind of a weird side project that like eddie q found on somebody's computer and shipped or this is a harbinger of huge things to come and i posited that there are two things that are possible for Apple sports. One is that Apple is about to make even more big moves into sports streaming, which I think there are lots of reasons for and we can talk about. The other one is that this is the app you would launch if you wanted to get into betting in interesting ways.

1:09:02One of the controversial things that has been in this app so far is you can see betting odds for all the games that you're looking at, which is powered by DraftKings, I would point out. You can turn it off in settings, but it's on by default. And I posited that this is what it would look like if Apple were to very slowly start getting into sports gambling. And many hundreds of people have told me how dumb I am for that take. And I continue to believe that I'm correct. I feel like you're probably correct, but also like that's the worst thing. I don't want you to be correct. But this is what I want to talk about, because I think that the Overton window on sports gambling has moved so far that the idea that this is somehow against Apple's brand to do is just no longer the truth.

1:09:47And sports gambling is just life. It's just mainstream life now. I saw the 60 Minutes episode about this a couple of weeks ago. Oh, really? Was there one? Neil, I had to listen to me talk about it. One of the things about working with Alex that I think the listener should know is every now and again, she comes up all revved up on 60 Minutes. it's just like it's just very confusing it is it is very much like working with a like a hot-headed retiree then i take my metamucil and have a nap it's great a dedicated viewer of 60 minutes which does make some very good journalism sometimes for some people but it's it's true that 60 minutes did do a gambling is bad it's very addictive uh i agree if you are tim cook and you're looking at declining sales, you know, emerging services revenue.

1:10:36Dude, what is the ultimate services business? Just taking money from people. Yep. Just directly extracting money from people. Give us some money and maybe this machine will give you some money back, but not all the time. In fact, not most of the time. And if you're in Las Vegas, you're standing in a monument to how little money the machine will give back to you and people still give money to the machine. And you have to imagine Tim Cook stands. He sat in the sphere looking at Bono going, I got to get in on this. And then we have the sports app. Isn't gambling not allowed in the app store? Like, is there weirdness about this?

1:11:14I thought it was not allowed. It depends. Yeah, there's like, there's little lines. So FanDuel and DraftKings are in the app store, right? You can just get those apps. So it depends. So FanDuel and DraftKings are just in the app store. You can just do it. It's legal in some states. I think Apple doesn't – Apple has some weird lines about what it allows when it's legal and not legal. But if I just wanted to play the digital slots. Nope. Games of chance are not allowed in the app store. And that feels weird to me. Like it feels disingenuous. If you're going to let gambling happen. Well, so here's – I think we should make this distinction right now.

1:11:50Okay. David, I think this is my pushback on your this is Apple getting into gambling. Even when gambling is morally frowned upon. Right when it was not legal in most places and whatever the newspapers would print the lines sure left and right old school football announcers at the end of blowouts would be like only a handful of people are interested in this field goal. And they were making very direct references to like whether your bookie is going to show up and break your arm. Yeah. That's basically what they were doing. So it was always part. It's always been part of sports culture. So to have a scores app where you can see odds is not at all a departure from what the local newspaper in Racine, Wisconsin did when I was growing up.

1:12:34But powered by DraftKings in an app store where it is part of the mainstream culture, where if you're trying to grow your services revenue, boy, that seems like a big, big pot of money. Yeah. And also, if you launched a newspaper in which one of the only two things you could do was look at the betting odds, don't you think you'd maybe think of that slightly differently? Well, I don't know. Like the New York Times owns The Athletic. The Athletic will straight up run articles that are like, here's how to bet today. Sure. I know some of the scores and stuff weren't accurate. Were the sports odds accurate in the Apple app?

1:13:10I haven't checked, to be honest. I have not heard complaints that they're not, but I couldn't tell you. John Gruber had a piece where he pointed out that DraftKings has weird odds. Because it's gambling. Odds are set by oddsmakers. People have different ideas. I think it is fascinating that they made this app. I think it's rushed because they needed to get out before the MLS season kicked off, which they own. So they have a huge opportunity to promote their own sports app ahead of it. Is this anything other than a toy for Eddie Q? remains unclear. Or is Tim Cook your new bookie? I love the idea of Tim Cook.

1:13:46In my head, he's wearing like a little hat. Do bookies still wear little hats? No, Tim Cook as a bookie would be an absolutely terrifying character. No hat, no costume, just actually Tim Cook in his sweater being like, go get the money. Yeah, he's the guy you like are in your house and you turn around and he's just been standing there for who knows how long. That's Tim Cook. The person who plays him in the film adaptation would win an Oscar immediately for their portrayal. He's not in your house. The heavies are in the house. Tim Cook is the guy where he's like, the heavies grab you, they throw you into the back of the van, you get thrown out of the van and you're in a very nice restaurant where he's quietly eating melon and he's like, sit down and have some melon.

1:14:28And then in that moment it becomes very clear to you that you're going to die. And you can either enjoy the melon and die or you can not enjoy the melon or die, but whether or not you're dying has been long since determined. All because he used the sports app. And that's how Tim Cook extracts excellent pricing on OLED screens. Enjoy the Melanin Die is a show that Apple TV Plus would run for sure. No, but we should move on. My only point is that I think people are overestimating the gap between where Apple is now and the Apple that just more or less runs a betting service. Like the stuff you're describing, the only difference between the digital slots that Apple won't let you do and the ones that it will let you do is that you can pay money to win virtual stuff, but you can't pay money to make actual money.

1:15:16And I don't think that's that big a gap. Like, do you want to play Monopoly Go and pour all of your money into getting more turns in Monopoly Go? Do you know what that is? That's gambling. You just can't win anything. Yeah, that's loot boxes. That's loot boxes. That is the same thing, except there's no actual real world monetary upside for you. And I think the gap between that and them saying, oh, just place Mr. Bet with Apple Pay is like this small. It's this small. DraftKings out there negotiating less than a 30 % cut. Are you kidding? DraftKings is a 50 % cut. That's what they call the melon cut.

1:15:53There's no way. All right. What's your non-gadget lightning round? It's still on the Apple front, and that's because Apple has just announced that they're doing post-quantum cryptography for iMessage. So all of our international listeners, I'm sorry this doesn't apply to you. Enjoy your WhatsApp and other services and continue to wonder why we all care about iMessage here in the U.S. But for U.S. users, this is kind of exciting. They're claiming it is more secure than signals post-quantum cryptography that it rolled out a couple of months ago. Unclear. You'll enjoy this. They also created their own, like, metrics for security.

1:16:37and they said, well, Signal's a level two, but we're a level three. Ooh, love to put yourself on the good metric that you've made up. Classic unmarked graph from Apple. Yeah, I was like, beautiful. Just imagine a line that just says security and Apple is up high and the other ones are lower, but there's no labels on any of the graphs. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's it. It is exciting because as we get closer to quantum computers actually doing something, which will one day happen, like it's going to happen, all the cryptography we have now will not hold up. You'll be able to just like brute force a lot of things one day.

1:17:16And so introducing post-quantum cryptography is kind of necessary for a lot of people. So it's exciting to see Apple doing that. But also we need to talk to like some security researchers. There's a lot more to be done here because Apple is just like, we did it. Everybody's like. This is two announcements from Apple this week on the same, with the same sort of valence. One is we've defeated quantum computers, which, well done. I've come in first in a race that I've made up. And then two, they announced that the iPhone 15 battery performs better than expected. But they didn't say how well they expected it or how much better than its expectation is.

1:17:50You know they're going to drop a chart. You can just determine your own ecstasy for it. Yeah. Yeah, it's going to be great. But this was just kind of a cool thing. I think quantum cryptography is going to become more important in the next 10 years, 20 years, whenever quantum computing actually becomes useful. But for now, it's just like, OK, that's nice. You should. By the way, if you're interested in this, we'll link to this. We just had the head of IBM quantum research on Decoder. We actually talked about whether or not you need a post quantum cryptography. And his answer was like, I wouldn't worry about it.

1:18:21Yeah. It's like it's not a big deal right now, but it's still like that's cool. Yeah. Did you ask me on decoder when I need to start actually learning what a quantum computer is? I did. I also asked him how he feels about the movie Ant-Man and the Lost Quantumania. And it wasn't positive. Seems right. Yeah. He was like, I'm happy people are thinking about quantum. It's like, but I don't think there are entire civilization. It's a very good answer. It was very politic. I got as far with quantum computing as like it can be both positive and negative at the same time. And somehow that lets it store a lot of data.

1:18:57And I just went, well, I don't get that. And that's the last thing I learned about quantum computing. Somebody said kubits. Go. We'll link that again. It's a good episode. He's very charming. Okay, cool. I'll listen to it. It's very good. All right. My lightning rounds, kind of some weird EV news. So Rivian is laying off 10 % of its workforce. Ford is cutting Mach-E prices. we're kind of in the second round of like the EV price wars at any moment Tesla is going to start giving away Model 3s like their Echo Dots they're going to show you Walmart ads and they'll give you a free car for it it feels like it's not so far off especially if Tesla gets itself driving first advertising the car is coming Twitter's got its own head somehow it does feel like the overwhelming demand for Tesla up Model Ys and 3s in the middle of the pandemic confused everyone into thinking that all anyone wanted was electric cars and it was like over.

1:19:56And so they all overproduced. And then in particular for Rivian, I think this is really interesting. You know, the R1T is a great truck. It's like a fun truck to drive. And the R1S is a nice SUV. They're so similar, it's hard to actually talk about them as they're different cars. Like one's an SUV and one's a truck. It's basically just like a camper shell was put on really, really nicely. Yeah. Yeah. But in an extremely well-done way. People of R1Ss love R1Ss. Pristine camper shell. But there's a reason they're R1s. They're the same platform, very, very similar vehicles. They're also hella expensive, right?

1:20:31They're like$100 ,000 at the top end trims. So Rivian just has this problem where they thought they had infinite demand for EVs. EVs and then pickup trucks, really expensive pickup trucks, were selling like hotcakes in the pandemic. So they were just like, oh, this is great. This is working. We'll overinvest in this. And then all of that cooled off. Even the pickup truck market is like way down right now. If you are the sort of person who thinks about buying a Ram truck, you can just get one in a way that you could not even a few years ago. So I think Rivian is just stuck because they don't have a cheaper car, which they're about to introduce the R2, which I think will be really interesting and exciting and hopefully is cheaper.

1:21:12And then Ford has the Lightning and the Mach-E. And I think every person who wanted to buy a Lightning or a Mach-E has purchased those cars and they got nothing else. And I think we're just at a moment where there were so many vaporware cars for a minute. And now there's like not enough kinds of cars. And like we're still in the middle of what you would call the vaporware cycle because all the other cars we're supposed to fill out the market aren't there so people aren't even cross shopping evs or cross shopping like two expensive platinum lightenings against other trucks that are on deep discount because they've been sitting in lots for forever and the and the companies are all like heavily lobbying the epa right now right to to reduce the the restrictions that force them to basically sell yeah they're like we nobody's buying them we don't actually want to make as many as we said we wanted to yeah and also interest rates are high and all that stuff.

1:22:04But I think in particular for Rivian, they just ran out of potential buyers for$100 ,000 pickup trucks. There does seem like there's like a cap on the number of people who do that. Yeah. Seems like there's a really obvious cap for that. Is there a bigger thing going on with just general EV interests not rising as fast as people thought? Like there was that interesting line from RJ Scrange, the CEO said during the earnings report, he said, his quote was, how do we get the 93 % of the market that's not buying an EV to get excited about the product? Which is not a problem I think anyone in 2020 would have thought we would have in 2024.

1:22:46Because the only car in the market in 2020 was Tesla. And there was apparently infinite demand for the Tesla Model 3. That's what I mean. But so are we at a point where they've run out of people to buy$100 ,000 cars? Or are we at a point where they've run out of people who want to buy EVs. So there are basically no head-up competitors to the Model 3 and the Y. There's the Mustang Mach-E, which is in a price war with Tesla because Tesla keeps lowering its prices. And you can feel about the Mach-E however you want, but that's a weird place to be, right? Where you're driving towards the bottom. And I think people who are interested in Teslas are not actually cross-shopping with Ford.

1:23:27Tesla's still a very unique kind of buyer. and you I know people are going to say it's morally irresponsible to give you a lot but people who buy Teslas buy Teslas and they like them that is just a fact then everything else is like crazy expensive the Honda Prologue is that we have a review of the Honda Prologue on the site this week it seems like a great car it's based in the Chevy Blazer which had a stop sale on it but Honda insists they've done their own software so the Prologue will not have these problems but you're really looking at like a pretty small number of head up competitors to the three in the Y.

1:23:59And there are some, right? Polestar exists. You can go down the line, but they're all pretty small scale competitors. They're not like - When do we get like a Dodge Neon Dash E? So I think the Volvo EX30 will be, it won't be that cheap, but it's a small EV that people seem really hype about. So I just think like we're in a weird part of the market where the upstart car companies are all too expensive. And then there aren't any, there aren't down here, there are just like not a lot of - It's like the traditional car companies took all the wrong lessons from the success of Tesla. yeah just like every single lesson they're like no except make the software good yeah they forgot that one i will say that down the street for me there's a hyundai dealership and over the last six months so the dealership is in the middle and then they have a big parking lot on one side and a big parking lot on the other side they ripped up one whole parking lot to put in a bunch of ev chargers and now basically the only thing on the lot is ionic stuff oh yeah actually this you the Ionic 5 and the rest of them they're the obviously the exception yeah and well and now they're doing the same thing to the other side It's like it's a Hyundai Kia is like they are convinced They are going to solve this problem, but you look at where they're playing They're playing in mainstream segments at mainstream prices, right?

1:25:12They're they are not$100 ,000 super trucks, right? Even the Evie 9 which is the big three-row SUV not $100 ,000. It's expensive, but it's not out of the reach of most SUV buyers. It's just priced competitively. That feels like the... I feel like I'm saying something very obvious. Make the most popular kinds of products and price them competitively. No, that's not the lesson. $100 ,000 super truck. Got it. There you go. I think we're in a really weird moment in the EV transition, but also if you're in the market for an EV, like not a horrible time to buy one. Yeah. Terrible time to buy a hybrid though.

1:25:51Yeah. All of a sudden it's impossible to find a hybrid. My dad has been shopping for a hybrid for a while and everybody wants the new Prius prime. Cause it's like finally nice looking. Uh, and it turns out they're essentially impossible to get your hands on. It's crazy. Yeah. Uh, as somebody who owns a plug in hybrid that only gets 25 miles of range, I will say that is not enough. You want 50. That's not enough. If our car had 50, we would just keep it forever. Yeah. Um, but it doesn't. So the second there is one that gets. I'm all gas, man. I'm all in on gas. Here's what I'm doing. I'm pouring oil on myself every day.

1:26:24I'm from Texas. I love Texas. Frackin's awesome. It's okay. I just ride Lime scooters. So between Alex and me, we're good to go. Yeah. We balance out. All right. There's a bunch of other news here. Fubo was suing Fox and Disney. I mean, that's just a sentence I said. But also it was like, it was going to happen. Can I just say, by the way, that the fact that Spooloo has just become the agreed upon name for this service. We have to stop that. It's Sports Hulu. I want to be clear about what people are saying. Yeah, right. Sports Hulu. And A, Alex Kranz called this first, so Alex wins. Thank you.

1:26:55But B, it's just everybody just calls it Spooloo now, which makes me think it might be called Spooloo for real and we cannot allow that to happen. It's going to be called Sports Max. It should just be called ESPN. Yes. It will be ridiculous if they don't call it ESPN. ESPN Max. Sponsored by Hulu. if they start a giant sports streaming service and they don't just call it espn they will have made such a gigantic error like you are looking at one of the most legendary brands in watching sports that has ever existed and it's like the people at fox sports are like well you can't it's gotta it's gotta indicate that it's fox sports as well it's like no it doesn't you can just have a tile somebody posted the other day a screenshot of like a promotional thing for them to sign up for a streaming service.

1:27:46And it was Hulu with live TV with Paramount Plus with Showtime. That was the official name. It's so good. It's like, what have we done here? It's all very bad. Alright, we gotta wrap this up. We've gone way over. I want to call it two stories. One, we have a look back at Spike Jonze's Her, the movie Her, which is all about falling in love with AI. It's very good. You should go read the look back. You should watch the movie. It still holds up. And then we sent a reporter to King of the Hammers there's a big silly off-road race Burning Man for off-road vehicles she got to ride in the Ford switch gear the EV F1 the EV F150 off-roady thing this is what I'm going to trade my afternoon for so I'm very excited about this story and also there's pictures of a Cybertruck trying to off-road one of which broke itself so it rules that piece will link to the thing and then it's big news we at South by Southwest doing the show live on the Vox Media Podcast Network stage that will happen on March 8th.

1:28:45We'll have more details soon. There's other stuff coming. There's going to be a decoder, which will be very good. There's some other people. It's going to be good. So if you're going to South by Southwest, come see us on March 8th. David, what's happening next week on the Tuesday show? We are going to talk about Flip, this weird new shopping app. Miyasato and our team basically ruined her life to become an influencer on Flip. And she told us her story. It's really good. And then Becca and Viren from our video team came on to talk about the Fuji X100 6, which is the internet's favorite camera in a way I still don't totally understand.

1:29:19It's so cool. It's good stuff. I want it. Yeah. If I could buy every camera, I'd buy every camera. Yeah, same. Alright, that's it. We've gone just way over. If anyone knows the people at Samsung who control the art mode endpoint in Tizen, talk to this guy. Alright, that's it. That's for chest. Fuck and roll.

1:29:42And that's it for The Vergecast this week. Hey, we'd love to hear from you. Give us a call at 866-VERGE-11. The Vergecast is a production of The Verge and Vox Media Podcast Network. Our show is produced by Andrew Marino and Liam James. That's it. We'll see you next week.

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