The better, smarter future of messaging

24:52Let's make a new app that incorporates all these 10 standards. Oh, and now we have 11 standards. And so we didn't want to be part of the problem. We didn't want to go and create yet another messaging standard. And so we looked at what was out there and the best open source protocol that kind of checks all the boxes is one called Matrix. Matrix is a protocol similar to, you can kind of think of it as a spiritual successor to Jabber or XMPP. Using no code from XMPP, it's just a brand new implementation. It's not perfect. No open standard is, but we decided to adopt it because it represents the best way for us to be part of a broader network without creating yet another closed siloed standard and contributing back to the problem.

25:38So we chose to use an open standard called Matrix. It is federated, which means that if you run your own server or if your account is on a different matrix server. You can still talk to someone who's on Beeper. It's very similar to email in that regard. Like you have an account on Beeper, you have an account on Gmail. You can still send messages to people who have different email servers. But Beeper is a private company. It's a non-open source application. And we're designed to be just an excellent experience on top of this open source standard. And similar to Gmail, you probably don't understand the intricacies of IMAP or POP or whatever.

26:14And God help you if you do at this point. Yeah, you don't have to. You just, you know, you could just chat with your friends. From a product perspective, you come into this and on the one hand, messaging is this incredibly entrenched thing that we've been doing roughly the same way for a very long time. You know, you mentioned you have the list on the left side and the conversation on the right. That goes back not just to how we message, but like decades of email, right? Like everybody's inbox is the same thing and has been forever. Yeah, all the way back to the beginning of the Internet. That is what conversation has looked like.

26:42Like, I think you could make a very compelling case that that is not the only or best answer, but it is the answer right now. And so I'm curious, even at the very beginning of deciding how do we want this thing to work and what do we want it to look like, you have to decide between reinventing the wheel in potentially very cool but really kind of jarring ways for people or doing the deeply boring old same thing that everybody does that is fundamentally how people expect to message all the time. How do you make that decision? So there's a couple competing veins here. One is that we have muscle memory for chat.

27:20Whether we like it or not, we've been using the same software for the last 10, 15 years. And that muscle memory is very strong. Like you have a physical, like picking up and unlocking your phone is a physical twitch that we all have. Totally. There's like the example of in the most recent iOS, when they moved the hang up button from the middle to the right, everybody freaked out because you just, you know where the buttons are. We found that with Beeper, even though there are improvements that we're making to the chat experience, people still have that need to have something familiar. Let me put a pin in that for a sec to kind of describe what our intention is.

27:57For the last 10 years, the app that you use to chat on a particular chat network is a one-to-one mapping to that network. Like you can only use the WhatsApp app to chat on WhatsApp. You can only use the iMessage app to chat on iMessage. There has never been a delinking between the network and the software that's used to chat on that. Now, I don't want to give the crypto people too much credit, but one of the ideas in the crypto world is this idea of separating the protocol from the application. And I think that's what we're doing with Beeper. We are, for the first time, separating the UI that you use to interact with a particular chat network from that chat network's first-party software.

28:40which gives us the ability to experiment in a way that these first-party chat apps basically can't do because they have 3 billion users and you can't experiment too much with an app that has that large an install base. Give me an example of something you could have done that might have been better, but you couldn't do because it's just not how it works. A very small example is over the summer, we had an intern build a widget framework for Beeper that lets you install widgets on the side panel of your chat, similar to how Gmail has, you know, plugins and, you know, you could download a Chrome extension.

29:16Never been possible. Like, no amount of money could have given you a widget on the side of your iMessage chat. Right. And we did it. He did it in, you know, a couple of weeks because we had already separated the protocol from the application. And some of the fun widgets that we made were like a summarization widget that used chat gpt or anthropic to summarize what the you know you log in in the morning to slack and you see a bunch of unread messages and you're just like what what happened what did i miss and here it's just a button in the side panel that you just press it and it just tells you what you missed that took like two days to build and it's only possible because we've separated that the protocol from the the application layer so that's the example like we're still early.

29:58I think we've worked really hard to get the foundation to work, to make sure that Beaver is reliable, to make sure that it sends and receives messages. Remarkably hard, took longer than expected, but we dedicated all of our effort just to doing that. And it's still taking quite a bit of our effort. So over time, we'll begin to use the fact that we have this kind of separation, but honestly, like some of the basics hadn't been done in messaging. Like, for example, Gmail over the last 10 years has evolved to have archive states and tabs and all of these tools that let you kind of manage the overflowing amount of email that you get.

30:36That overflow is shifting to chat. You know, we are getting not just spam and junk messages, but we're just getting more and more of our daily communication flowing through these tools that haven't changed. And so a lot of what we did at Beaver was just add kind of basic inbox management stuff that email has had forever that make it a bit easier for you to deal with, you know, your inbox. And we've added things like being able to archive messages. You can move chats from your main inbox to other folders. You can mark things as low priority. And those have been just incredibly helpful for people that are using chat as their primary means of communication.

31:16okay we gotta take one more break and then we're gonna get into where beeper goes from here

31:25support for this show comes from linkedin when you're a small business owner your business is on your mind 24 7 so when you're hiring you need a partner that works just as hard as you do that hiring partner is linkedin jobs when you clock out linkedin clocks in linkedin makes it Easy to post your job for free, share it with your network, and get qualified candidates that you can manage all in one place. LinkedIn's new features can help you write job descriptions and then quickly get your job in front of the right people with deep candidate insights. Either post your job for free or pay to promote.

32:00Promoted jobs get three times more qualified applicants. At the end of the day, the most important thing to your small business is the quality of candidates. And with LinkedIn, you can feel confident that you're getting the best. Based on LinkedIn data, 72 % of SMBs using LinkedIn say that it helps them find high-quality candidates. Find out why more than 2.5 million small businesses use LinkedIn for hiring today. Find your next great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at linkedin.com slash track. That's linkedin.com slash track to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. Support for this show comes from LinkedIn.

32:39When you're a small business owner, your business is on your mind 24-7. So when you're hiring, you need a partner that works just as hard as you do. That hiring partner is LinkedIn Jobs. When you clock out, LinkedIn clocks in. LinkedIn makes it easy to post your job for free, share it with your network, and get qualified candidates that you can manage all in one place. LinkedIn's new features can help you write job descriptions and then quickly get your job in front of the right people with deep candidate insights. either post your job for free or pay to promote. Promoted jobs get three times more qualified applicants.

33:14At the end of the day, the most important thing to your small business is the quality of candidates. And with LinkedIn, you can feel confident that you're getting the best. Based on LinkedIn data, 72 % of SMBs using LinkedIn say that it helps them find high quality candidates. Find out why more than two and a half million small businesses use LinkedIn for hiring today. Find your next great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at linkedin.com slash track. That's linkedin.com slash track to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply.

33:50All right, we're back. Let's get back to talking about Beeper, which I really do continue to think is one of the most interesting messaging apps on the planet. And that's in part because its strategy is to like invade the messaging app ecosystem as it already exists. I've been using Beeper for a long time, like I said earlier, and I've kind of watched the company lose connections to services and get them back and support new stuff and drop support and re-add support. And in general, I just can't imagine that the messaging apps, which like we've been talking about, don't have APIs or developer platforms and really want you to stay in their walled gardens, are psyched that Beeper exists at all.

34:25So I just asked Eric, is this app a series of elaborate hacks designed to get around messaging apps that would rather you not do all these things? How much do these companies know or care what you're doing to their systems? You know, at the end of the day, these are your chats. These are your friends. These are your connections. This is your life. Our life is illustrated by the messages that we send to our friends and family and our colleagues. You know, a lot of the kind of AI one-offs that you've seen are people like training an AI on their chat messages. That's because, you know, your messages are you.

35:02Like they are an embodiment of kind of your relationships and your connections. I think what we're doing is saying like, you should be in control of your own messages. And it's remarkable how we take that for granted on other things like email or calls or Google Docs or whatever. Like all of the other forms of, you know, communication are your own. They're owned by you. But chat, we kind of have accepted this world where like there's these silos and those chats are stuck in the silo and we're going to be okay with it. I think what we're doing is saying like, no, actually, you should be in control of who you're chatting with and you should have access to your message history and you should be able to decide, you know, which client you use to send messages on each of these different networks.

35:47and that's all we're doing. Like you can kind of think of it as a browser. You know, when you open up Instagram.com in Chrome or in Arc or in Brave, you're still just, you know, sending and receiving messages on Instagram. That's basically how Beaver works. Okay. I believe you that you believe that. I am less convinced that Apple thinks all of my iMessages belong to me and are mine to do with as I please. I think you're right. I'm just not sure that's a super popular opinion in the messaging world. I think honestly, it kind of doesn't matter what Apple thinks. There's 3 billion people who use chat in the world.

36:23There's a lot more of us than them at this point. And it matters what you think is right. And so it is, to a certain degree, up to us as users of chat protocols and chat networks to say, this is what I expect. This is my minimum bar. part of the reason why these companies can get away with it is it's practically impossible to change there is no free market right now in messaging yeah that's true if you have you know an android phone you can't send a message to someone on imessage if you are whatsapp you can't send a message to someone who is on telegram and these companies exploit that kind of social dynamic to make it harder for you to actually harder for companies like beeper or other chat providers to actually compete in terms of features or capabilities.

37:13The lock-in effect is real. And so what we're doing is giving people a choice for the first time, giving Americans, giving Europeans, giving people around the world a chance to actually choose which software they think offers them a better experience without having to worry about the lock-in effect. And if you look at the kind of winds of change in Europe with the Digital Markets Act, or in the US with the American Innovation and Choice Online Act, there are a few movements that are taking shape to say, actually, you know, for the good of us, for the good of, you know, the world, we need to be able to have the freedom to choose.

37:53And that's, you know, slowly happening. And I think it's going to be harder for these large companies to come out with anti, you know, free market, anti-competitive products like the current suite of chat apps in the future. Yeah, I was going to ask this question later, but since you brought it up, I'll just ask it now. The thing about the regulatory stuff, especially this idea in the EU that chat apps essentially have to interoperate, that is the road we are headed down. It's the law. I've wondered for a long time whether that essentially obviates Beeper over time because these apps you already use are going to be forced to integrate with one another, or if it gives you an actually level playing field to be on because instead of having your own - It's fantastic.

38:33It's fantastic. You're psyched about this. Oh, absolutely. Oh, yeah. The world needs to have the ability to communicate. But no, I agree with that. Give me the ruthless capitalist case for why this is good for Bumer. In terms of building a better chat experience, are you going to bet on the product management team at Apple who builds iMessage and makes small changes to the UI every year that don't really have too much impact on how you use it? Or are you going to bet on a company whose entire life is chat. And our entire goal is to build the best chat experience. Some of my favorite chat apps today are Telegram and Discord, you know, besides Beeper.

39:10I think, you know, Telegram has a 30-person team, theoretically, I think, you know, building what's arguably a much better chat experience than any of these, you know, larger, more well-used apps. And so given the freedom to message and interoperate, yeah, you know, Beeper is going to take off because we offer a better experience than the other ones. And people can't switch because, you know, they're currently locked in. One other thing I have, I don't know if struggled is the wrong word, but I've thought about this a lot as I've been a Beeper user over the years. One thing I keep doing all the time is turning on and off LinkedIn.

39:44And there's this thing that happens. It's made me realize like, yes, all these apps are chat, but they have very different norms and they have very different systems. And I have really different rules in different places for who's allowed to contact me and when, like if I got as many messages on WhatsApp every day as I do on Slack, my phone would explode, which is not like a brag. People talk too much on Slack, right? But is it doable, do you think, to have all of those systems and all of those norms and all of those unwritten rules about how we talk to each other and about what, like to some extent you're doing this like context collapse of all of these different places into one thing in a way that's really useful, but also really mind bending for me.

40:25And sometimes like I go from one chat window where I'm talking with my friends to another identical looking chat window where I'm talking to like the random person who just added me on LinkedIn. And that's really useful, but also kind of mind bending in a way. Is it possible to do all that? What I've discovered through chatting with users of Beeper and people who chat a lot is that we all have this internal heuristic that we've developed that helps us assign a priority to messages that we receive. LinkedIn sounds like it might not be a giant priority for you. Not super high, no. Slack, probably medium.

41:02Maybe iMessage is your top. If you get a ping on iMessage, you're much more likely to read it. you hold you hold this heuristic and you use that daily to kind of prioritize incoming messages you are unique no one else prioritizes messages in the exact same way that you do they should i'm right there's 15 different networks and everyone is unique everyone is a butterfly and what's interesting is that we all think everyone else has the exact same heuristic and so this this manifests itself in some complicated ways when you send someone a message on iMessage and they're in Europe. You think that you're now trying to be like the most important, like you think that because you assign a higher way to iMessage, if you send someone iMessage, this means like, hey, you should respond to this because this is an important message.

41:49But that's not necessarily their heuristic. Take salespeople, for example. I'm not a salesperson, thankfully, but they love LinkedIn. Salespeople love LinkedIn. Recruiters love LinkedIn. And so if they get a ping on LinkedIn, wow, like this might be like move over the rest of the day. this is the most important thing that came across my desk. Think of demographics differences. Think of the difference between Snapchat and Instagram. Think of the subtle differences between friend groups that are gamers on Discord versus open source hackers on IRC. Everyone has a slightly different way of balancing that priority.

42:25And this is one of the biggest challenges that we face at We pull in messages from all of your different networks. And that's great for all the reasons that I outlined around, you know, having one search box, having one single app to install on each of your devices. It does sacrifice right now some of the metadata that's associated with the it's like the game behind the game, right? When you get a ping on Instagram or you might not even have notifications set up for Instagram, right? You might not assign any weight to Instagram. We miss that. And that's something that we are looking at how we can actually reintegrate that into our system.

43:01So it's on the to-do list. It's something that we're working on. But I would hazard a guess to say that those network-based heuristics that you've developed are only an approximation of the actual priority. They're good rules of thumb, but not 100%. Like, for example, LinkedIn. I get a lot of spam on LinkedIn, but it's one of the only open inboxes that I have on the internet. Like I have my Twitter DMs open, but for most people, LinkedIn is the only way that friends from high school could contact them because your LinkedIn probably shows up at the top of the Google search for your name. And occasionally I get really heartfelt and interesting messages sent to me via LinkedIn because that's the only way that people who don't have my phone number or email address can contact.

43:49And I think about that a lot, that the best system for relative priority ranking is one based on the person that's trying to contact you, the type of message, you know, and the meta kind of relationship that you have with that person. And all of that data is in Beeper. And so one of the things that we're working on is how we can use that metadata. How frequently do you talk to this person? Have you talked to them in the past, but you haven't talked to them in years? Have they sent their 30th message to you today? Like, how quickly do you respond to them? Do you respond to them on multiple platforms?

44:25Is this a person that you talk to on Instagram, iMessage, and Slack? Is this a work contact? Do they talk to you mostly during work hours? Are you part of groups with them? There's so much metadata that can be used to assign or help gauge priority. And I'm really excited that we are the first platform ever that has clear visibility into all of these different signals. And one of our big initiatives is figuring out how we can integrate these signals in a simple enough way to help you make better prioritization decisions so that you don't have to use a hard and fast rule, a clunky rule like LinkedIn is not useful to me.

45:03It might work most of the time, but I want to figure out a way that we can actually get that nugget of gold, that one old friend that sent you a LinkedIn message that you would not have actually read for years if you don't go to your LinkedIn inbox like I used to, and bubble that up. And at the same time, the heuristic that you've set up, which is iMessage is king, right? That is the main network. It's not as good of a high signal to noise ratio as you think it is. No. There's two-factor auth codes. There's DoorDash. There's Uber receipts. There's spam, there's SMS, there's all this crap. There's groups that people add you to that you don't really want to see at the top of your inbox, but you don't really want to leave.

45:43Yeah. So, again, this all goes back to the idea that, like, we want to make the best chat app on earth. And part of that means highlighting the people that matter, highlighting the relationships, the conversations that matter, and bubbling those to the top. Yeah. And that totally attracts me and also brings up, I think, one of these sort of great tensions of building an app like Beeper. I can't prove this, but one of the theories that I have that I think is right based on talking to people for a long time about this is that one of the reasons it's very hard to do things in chat apps is that it reminds people that you're reading their messages.

46:17When Google's assistant shows up and is like, oh, would you like to buy movie tickets? Part of that is annoying. Part of it is a reminder that there is a Google system that is aware of what I'm saying to my friend. And that feels bad. And so I think these companies go way out of their way to say, no, no, no, no. we're not looking we don't care we don't tell ads against it like no no no we're not we're not even gonna touch it your chats are your chats but do you believe that i mean no all of your instagram messages are on their servers and you're getting increasingly more targeted messages in your stories like oh yeah to be clear i don't i don't think that's actually true in many cases i actually think ironically there was this thing recently with elon musk and x they said we're going to use your posts including your dms to train ai and a bunch of people freaked out and our overarching conversation pretty quickly got to like, well, yeah, of course, this is what everybody's doing.

47:03Like, how do you not think that's what's happening on all of these services? That's a separate problem. I agree. That's a problem. I think it's a problem worth solving. But I think the challenge is to say, we're going to give you lots of things on top of your chats. We're going to do all kinds of cool things based on who we know you care about, what you're talking about, the summarization stuff you're talking about, without making it feel like we're intruding on your private life, which is what my chats are and again i i believe there are lots of good reasons to not talk in all the places that we talk but we do and i think any reminder of that is always going to feel bad to people yeah how do you get people to make that trade or at least kind of agree to go along that ride with you over time i don't think it's a trade i think that most of the things that we're doing are bog simple things that should have been done 10 years ago like archiving right you You know, that's just a simple button in Beeper that says, I don't want to see this chat in my inbox anymore.

47:59Sure. Simple as that. But the thing where you're describing, like, I want to be able to bubble up the most important thing on your LinkedIn to the top, like objectively good, useful feature requires knowing things about me. It does. But the beauty of Beeper is that we're giving you access to your own messages locally on your device. Beeper is fully encrypted. We don't have a copy of your messages on our servers. We couldn't read your messages on our servers if we wanted to. Like your history is encrypted with a key that only you know. Did you set it up that way on purpose? Like, was it obvious to you that that was the way to do it?

48:31Okay. Absolutely. A hundred percent. And what's cool is that everyone has a phone. These phones have tons of storage. We can store a copy of your entire communication history on your phone. It takes a couple gigs. That's our plan. Store a copy of your messages locally on your device. We don't even upload your contact list. you know, your contact, like we're the only chat up in the world that doesn't upload your contact list, right? Like we use the contact list locally to be able to match like this person's phone numbers associated with this person's name. So eventually you'll be able to say this person on LinkedIn is the same as this person over here in iMessage.

49:09And those links will strengthen kind of the relationship in Beeper's eyes. And again, this is like, we're not planning to do rocket science here of like creating complicated AI models, you know, trained. It's like basic stuff. Like, is this name the same on iMessage as in LinkedIn? When was the last time I talked to them on Instagram? Like, how many stories have I liked of theirs? It's all local. It's all just in your message history. And it doesn't need to be uploaded anywhere. It could be all done inside the beeper app our phone numbers the like universal username at this point mostly ish but not exactly not not entirely are we good with phone numbers as as the universal username no i think it's it's it's pragmatic it's the best option that we have yeah but beeper is not built on top of a phone number it's built on top of more like an email address handle but yeah it's it's it is interesting because it doesn't seem like i'm just trying to think of what is the one piece of information that all of these services know about me.

50:12And it's probably my phone number. Yeah, unfortunately for some networks like Instagram and Facebook, that's not actually exposed. So Facebook and Instagram, no, for damn sure. They know everything about you. But that's not even exposed to you as a user. You have to upload your entire contact list in order to see which of your friends are on Instagram. There's no way to say, like, is this phone number also on Instagram? How broad do you think this goes? I think if I were to look at people right now, I would say you're in a place of sort of what I would call relatively synchronous chat. I don't know if you have a better term for it than I do, but it's like, it's relatively fast moving.

50:46It's not. I call it consumer chat versus something like enterprise or kind of community-based chat. It's like DMs, small group chats. Yeah. That's our core kind of bread and butter right now. That makes sense. But I also think a lot of the stuff we've been talking about in chat also exists in places like, I don't know, video chat. You know, speaking of things with a million different standards that all compete with each other. you could talk yourself into being an email client in a way that's useful without trying super hard. Like how far out from consumer chat do you think Beeper goes over time or it's useful to think about?

51:19What I love about chat and what gets me so excited about working on building this product is it's an ever present well. We can always come back to it because it's such an innate human tendency. We want to communicate. We are social beings. And so whenever we need things to work on, we just go back to the well and we say, how How could we make this aspect of communication better? I think we're definitely focused on chat. There's so many problems with chat that we have not, you know, even scratched the surface in terms of improvements and things that we can do. But if you extend this out 5, 10, 20 years, there is no other company, you know, besides us that is entirely focused on building an amazing communication experience.

52:02And that is our entire goal. Like we will continue to build things that we think make it easier for people to communicate, make it more seamless, make it lower friction. And then, you know, after we get kind of a handle on what we have today, what are different modalities that we could use for communication? You know, hardware dies hard with a hardware person like me. If you look at every computing platform, the killer app has always been chat, if not, you know, communication to a certain degree. and, you know, playing the clock forward a little bit, we are, you know, I am floored by the fact that I have seven Google homes in my house and I can't send a damn text message from them.

52:44Or I can't send a message to my wife who has an Android phone and like, you know, seamlessly start voice chatting with her. Like maybe if she had Duo, we might be able to, it's just like, there's no way for us to do kind of simple communication. There's all these different apps and there's all these different devices, but there's no one way to communicate. And I think that one of the things that, again, going back to this idea that we have of separating the protocol from the application, from the experience, we have this unique ability to say, we can communicate to anyone on any chat network. Could we build an app for AirPods, you know, that lets you just, you're driving and instead of having to mediate things through CarPlay or through Android Auto or something like that, like what if we could just override that and become your earpiece that, you know, connects you to other people through Beeper.

53:37Same thing with around the home, but that's kind of boring. And, you know, you could already predict that. Like, I'm excited to think like in five years, what will we be doing? You know, what new devices will we have and how will we communicate on them? Yeah, I think that's really interesting. And it also sounds like the road we're headed down, which I think is the right one, but it's going to be a really tricky one to pull off is to separate the person from the app, right? Like you're talking about the lookup table. It seems like the end result is just that if I want to call you, I just call you and I actually don't have to think about how it's calling you.

54:10It can call you on any number of platforms. And ultimately I don't have to care. Is that where we go? Yeah. Like, I mean, the end result here is telepathy. Like, how can I send a message to you as a person rather than you as an inbox in, you know, Facebook or iMessage or whatever? And you can do that without building yet another standard on top of all the other standards? I mean, I hope so. And I think that, you know, once this gains steam or gains momentum, I think that other people will realize that as well and hopefully join in the fun. Because the real ticket here is building a better experience rather than a network that just locks you in.

54:48How is it going convincing people to pay for this? This is the kind of thing people have never paid for, except for like email sickos who pay 30 bucks a month for superhuman. But this is not, consumer chat is not a thing people are used to paying money for. And I grant that you're offering, you know, different kinds of features and power user stuff that people are willing to pay for, but ultimately long run, can a paid chat thing work? I would say that people do pay for communication. communication we pay for tools that help us communicate we pay$80 a month for our phone plans sure we pay for any number of video chat pieces of software you know that we use it's a smaller budget than it was in the 90s where we all had long distance plans as well but there is a chunk of money that people will put towards improving their communication that's what we're going after but we're also looking to grow the pie fair enough all right well we're gonna have to come back and do this again because this like you said this stuff is not done changing it's going to keep getting weird and in fun ways but thank you for doing this i really appreciate this this is really fun no anytime it was good to chat all right that's it for the verge cast today thanks so much to eric for being on and thank you as always for listening the show is produced by andrew marino and liam james the verge cast is a verge production and part of the vox media podcast network we will be back with episodes on wednesday and friday there's lots of news to cover this week more gadgets to talk about, believe it or not.

56:14And we're going to have the long-awaited MetaVergecast episode coming really soon. And we'll be back next Monday with the third in our four-episode series all about connectivity. We'll see you then. Rock and roll.

56:35Support for this show comes from SC Johnson. We've all been there. Choosing not to wear your new white shoes because there's a 10 % chance of rain? Bending awkwardly over the tiny coffee table to enjoy a sip of your latte? Not ordering the red sauce. Those feelings of dread are what we call Stainziety. But now, you can break free from your Stainziety with Shout's Triple Acting Spray that has stain-fighting ingredients to remove a huge variety of stains, so you can live in the moment and clean up later. Just breathe and shout with Shout Triple Acting Spray. Learn more at ShoutItOut.com.

57:35virtual cards, and even automate supplier payments. Scale with confidence. Backed by American Express. Visit americanexpress.com slash corporate. Terms apply.