The great Evernote reboot

24:46I think that's right and I actually think with a lot of things, giving people tools to set something up for themselves is really cool and really powerful. I also think it leads to trouble because it's just really hard to do that in a way that is good and helpful. And also most people don't touch the defaults and so whatever weirdness is on by default, they're going to get regardless. But I also think realistically, your team is only so big. You only have so many things to do. everything you add is going to make the app bigger it's going to make it more complicated it's going to make it slower and so I think the question of especially I'm just like this thing where you're coming from this long history of Evernote where it kind of lost its way by trying to do too much back to you don't want to try to do too much but like one of my favorite things to do is go into the discords of productivity apps because I'm a loser who doesn't have any friends and just watch what people ask for and everybody asks for everything all the time, right?

25:47And everybody has the one teeny tiny thing that works for their use specifically. And if you give it to them, they'll love your app forever and ever. But for every person on planet earth, that thing is different. Yes. And I actually admire the impulse to give all those people what they want, but you can't, you'll ruin your app, right? And I think we've seen what happens when you try. Yeah. So like I, the strategy of sort of being democratic and giving people what they want makes a lot of sense to me. But I do wonder like, do you have to have boundaries in your head? Absolutely. Like if enough people asked you to make an email client inside of Evernote, would you make an email client inside of Evernote?

26:20It depends on how many they are and it depends on how good the UX that we can prototype is. So tell me what the boundaries are then. I think that the boundaries are always about what is Evernote, you know? And in order to answer that, you can just look at how many people use what inside Evernote. So of course, Evernote being what it is, the note editor is the most used part together with, I don't know, like lists somewhere in the app. So when we work on quality of life improvements, which is one of our biggest tracks, and on synchronization projects, which is also one of our biggest tracks, those are about note-taking.

26:55And to the core, I would say, I don't know, 80-90 % of the team is focused on the core note-taking experience. And so if you look at what we released this year, so this year we had this idealistic goal of releasing 100 quality of life improvements. We shipped, I think, 60 or 65, I don't know. That's pretty good. For now. And it's late August. That's pretty solid. I think we're kind of on track. Yeah. I think Evernote is going to be fine as long as we are very intentional with the fact that Evernote's focusing is on note-taking. Okay. I think as long as we recognize that and we work with that in mind, I think Evernote is going to be fine.

27:34Then if some people want to have a calendar client inside it, it's fine. But I don't think, I don't see a way for the team to be mostly focused on calendar going forward. Even though like, yeah, I would like to improve it. When you say note taking, I'm curious what's your sense of what that looks like for people in 2024? Because I look back to like Evernote at the very beginning of the App Store, right? And its thing was like, it was very easy to put stuff into Evernote. Yeah. And for years, the strangest thing about the productivity space to me was that nobody built a web clipper as good as Evernote.

28:08That was just like, I have a thing and I need to get it into my notes app. Evernote has always been better at that than everybody. Still is, which is bizarre all these years later. But my sense is as like we're in this space now where there's this renewed interest in second brain stuff and everybody talks about like Zettelkastens on the internet and personal knowledge management and all this stuff. And then with AI, there is this sort of renewed sense of like, here's how we organize our stuff and how we manage our digital lives. When you think about like what note taking means, how sort of broad or narrow is your definition of that at this point?

28:45It's super broad. Like I think we talked to hundreds of customers in the last year. And I don't recall two people telling me that they follow exactly the same like flow or system. Yeah, maybe some people like mentioned, I don't know, some frameworks like para, getting things done, etc. But then they always customize it because they have one slightly different thing that they need to do. And then there's people who handle everything like house related and Evernote, but also their work. People who are consultants, they have a bunch of projects, etc. And then people who are more or less interested in like saving everything they do.

29:25And so, yeah, it's super broad. It's like there is nobody who does it in the same exact way as somebody else does. And so for that reason, I think customization, again, is important, but also building tools for them to do it is also important. So what are the buckets you think about when you think about how to do note-taking really well? What does that require, even at a higher level? I think it depends on what you do. So we kind of identified a few families of categories of ways you could do note-taking. So for instance, there's a category that we call the archivers. And they are people who basically save everything inside Evernote.

30:05And they, like as you mentioned, with the Web Clipper, there are people who automatically forward every email they receive to Evernote. Whoa. Every email. Even like newsletters and stuff. Every email. They have like a filter. Like LLB has a sale. It goes straight to Evernote. Yeah, absolutely. And so you see why there are some people who have like 100 ,000 notes on Evernote. So for them, you just need to build just like as if it was easy, but you need to build a very good organization tool. Then there are some people who are writers, and they don't even write that many notes, but they write long notes and complex notes.

30:41And they care a lot about the craft of how the note is structured and how it's written, what they can add to the note. and different, like for instance, when we created the quote block, which is nothing like incredibly particular, it's in every piece of software that I know of, but it's basically a different way to look at a bunch of text, a block of text, and you can just see as if it was a quote. And these people went crazy for it, even though it's so simple, you know, because they go crazy for how you can build a note. And then there are people who are particularly interested in like personal knowledge management, as you said.

31:16And so they want to see Evernote as their one tool. And they would like to have their own life running on Evernote. So if Evernote did, I don't know, something weird like banking, they would love it. They could just use Evernote for that. Of course, that's crazy. So yeah, basically we try to look at the interception of all these categories and we try to build the things that are as effective as possible for as many people in these categories as possible. And then if there's one of these groups that needs something specific to them, we'll still build it if it's important enough to their use case.

31:49Got it. Okay. And how much do you think about the work of doing some of that stuff for people versus sort of giving them a canvas to do it for themselves? And I think organization is one really interesting one, right? Where one of the things that's happening in a lot of these tools is they're like, don't worry about organizing. We'll use AI to suggest tags or we'll just magically do the search and all this stuff for you. And I think I sense this sort of schism in this space between people who are like, what I want is like a really fast, really nice, really pleasant tool that doesn't tell me how to use it, that I can just use however I want.

32:26And then there's another set of people who are like, what I want to do is spend a lot less time thinking about my notes. I just want to dump every email I get into Evernote and have it make sense of all of those things for me. And I kind of feel like you can't be both of those things at the same time. Yeah, I don't think there is a way to build something that works in the perfect way for both. So I think that the perfect approach is to build a product that supports both use cases. So increasingly, there are people who just want to dump stuff into Evernote and then ask AI search to retrieve the information they want.

33:07So for instance, one of my favorite examples is one person, I think, uploaded the manual for their kitchen clock, I think, on Evernote. And then they wanted to know how to change from Celsius to Fahrenheit in the clock. And they just asked the AI search and it just scanned the PDF and just told him, like, you should do this, this and that, which was interesting. Of course, this is not useful to somebody who uses Evernote, not even to collect stuff, but to organize it in a way that mimics their mental map of how their content is organized. And so for them, it's much more important to build stuff like, I don't know, stacks for notebooks, for instance, or like multiple levels of hierarchy and stuff like that.

33:57So you see how you need to build different things for different use cases. That first use case, the like, I want to upload stuff to Evernote and have Evernote just kind of know it. Yeah. It's so new and so interesting to me. And I feel like in a certain way is like the obvious next step of this, right? Where instead of searching for a note, I should just be able to search for information that I need. And it doesn't really matter where it is. Yeah. Like as a person who likes to organize stuff, that kind of makes me itchy. But I also understand why that's really valuable. Are we getting to that point?

34:33Is that a thing you're investing in a lot? Because that also causes some really interesting privacy and data security questions. It changes the literal cost of running the service. Is there going to be more and more of that kind of put everything in and let the app make sense of all your information for you coming in Evernote? Yeah, it's something that's trending. So it's clearly something that people are starting to explore more, both because they are seeing how it could work because maybe they are getting familiar with ChatGPT or other AI products, but also because I think that deep down this is something that people always wanted.

35:09You just want to talk to a computer and the computer just tells you what you want to know instead of going through this level of emulation which is like I have to click on a mouse and then open a page and then I read the information out of that. I just want to know that information. My favorite example is always I have a note with all of my account and loyalty numbers for different airlines and car rental places and stuff like that. And every time I do it, if I just search Delta, it brings up too many notes because it has everything with the word Delta in it. And so I have to remember like, okay, the thing is actually called accounts space slash space loyalty numbers.

35:45And then it's like, no, it's loyalty something else. And so it's like finding this is a pain. And what I want is just to say, what's my Delta frequent flyer number? And it just pops it up. A feels like a terrific use case for a notes app and B feels like in a funny way actually a thing AI is able to do. I think we're at a place where a lot of people are like, I'm going to throw all these interesting links and Evernote or something else is going to make new insights out of them. It's like, no it's not. But it might find information for you that would otherwise take you several steps to find. Does that feel like the right frame for how you're thinking about some of this stuff?

36:20It is exactly why we built AI Search a few months ago. like I think last year. I don't think we nailed it yet. I think we'll need to iterate again on that. But it's exactly the vision behind it. So you have some information there. You don't need to care about where it is. You just look for your Delta account number and it just tells you, yeah, it's XYZ. And it should already be able to do it. It's just a bit clunky. It's not easy to find inside Evernote because we want to make sure that we don't disrupt. Search is a very important feature on Evernote. So we didn't want to replace it. But it's already possible.

36:54You can already do it, I think. Okay. Well, and I think that goes back to the bundling and unbundling thing for me in a really interesting way because the last phase of software has definitely been unbundling, right? We're back. We're in this like best in breed, kind of take one slice of something, do it super well, and it's all just apps on your home screen. So it's not like the switching cost is super high from thing to thing. but when I'm working with an AI system having there be one place that knows everything, again leaving all of the like privacy and security and terrifying dystopian things out that's really valuable, right?

37:33And so for me to know every confirmation number every loyalty number, all of my email, everything is all, knowing all of that is in one place becomes really valuable. And so I think it seems to me that if you think AI is going to become a bigger and bigger part of this, that would sort of expand the boundaries of what you feel like Evernote has to do. Because in order for you to be able to return that kind of information, you just need a lot of stuff from me. Yeah. The cool thing is that you always have control over it, right? So if you're not comfortable with sharing some document, for instance, you can just not put it on Evernote or on any software and it won't be scanned, quote unquote.

38:13The other thing is that we take this stuff incredibly seriously. So one of the reasons why we weren't particularly bold into creating AI search is because we wanted to make sure that people who didn't want it on their content could just not use it and not worry about it. So that's one way to approach it. I think we're maybe a bit too conservative and too careful with it. But I think it's a good attention to have. Wait, actually, walk me through that. How do you put that in the product? Because again, you have a lot of people who use Evernote who have been putting stuff into it, including in many cases very sensitive things.

38:49Like you keep hearing about people who put all their passwords in Evernote and like, don't do that, people. Just don't do that. Or at least use end-to-end encryption. Like there is an end-to-end encryption feature on Evernote. Okay. If you have to, do that. Just don't do that. But then, so then to say, it's one thing to say, you know, we have a new layout for the formatting buttons. It's another thing to say, we now have an AI tool that is going to index everything you've ever put into Evernote and make it searchable. There's going to be a subset of people who are like, oh, neat. And there's going to be a subset of people who are like, you did what now?

39:24Like, how do you sequence that for those people? How do you roll that out in a way that doesn't terrify two-thirds of your users? Yeah. So this is a great example on how we take this seriously. So we literally didn't take this vision to its full potential because we didn't want people to be scared and to be frightened by what this could become. So we were very careful in building it. So right now, the way it works is if you don't opt in to use AI-powered search, your notes are not shared with any sort of third-party AI which is an interesting approach because we could have said yeah, don't worry the privacy policy of this AI tool is that they don't train anything on your content so you're still safe but we'll still do it so for now it works like this now we're always trying to ask people what their feeling for these things are because it would be so useful so I'm curious to know if there is a way to build it in such a way that it's both frictionless and it works super well, super easy to use, etc.

40:35And also remain super private and stuff like that. I think there are ways. We just didn't have time yet to work. You think there are ways? I'm not convinced there are ways, but I'm glad to hear that you think there are. Well, for instance, if you could run a model locally, you could do it without sharing it with anybody else, which is one way to protect it so that at least you know that everything is still on your device. And it's not like there is one model that is ingesting everybody's content. That's one way, but there are maybe other ways. All right, we got to take one more break, and then we're going to talk about price, we're going to talk about AI, and we're going to talk about the future.

41:12We'll be right back.

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42:32All right, we're back with the rest of my conversation with Federico Simeonato. But let's talk about the two things people hate about Evernote. Okay. Just the last two product things. And then I want to talk a little bit about the future and then we'll get out of here. All right. Again, as I said, I like to go on the subreddit every once in a while and just see what people hate about Evernote. Yeah. I would say thing number one is speed, real or perceived. I think in general it's very hard to build a fast app, but it also seems like Evernote has struggled to be a fast app over the years. Why is it so hard to build Evernote fast?

43:07So I'll give you an example. When we built the new mobile navigation, one of the reasons was people want to do two things when they are on mobile. They either want to create something new or they want to retrieve something that is existing, that maybe they created a few days ago on mobile, or that maybe they just created on desktop. The other reason why we did it is that the old homepage was painfully slow. And understandably, because it did a lot of things. Like you had, I don't know if you're familiar with it, but you had these widgets that you could customize, etc. But of course, every widget is a different query for content that needs to be populated.

43:46So every section needs to be populated through a query. So one of the big reasons why we did it is because we wanted to make it faster, especially at launch. It was like, I think, four or five seconds on good devices to launch in the past. And now it's down to less than a second on some good devices. So that's a big thing. So the other thing is just technology. We need to improve the technology and we did for the whole last year and we're still doing As I told you, today we're launching our end, which is this new synchronization engine, which also speeds up synchronization. So yeah, it comes down to the technology that you have and the way it works.

44:26I mean, it isn't. I both believe you and still don't care, and I still think all the apps should be faster. Is speed a trade-off to some of this other stuff that you're thinking about? As you build in all these new features and bring in lots of new kinds of stuff and activities people can do, like you mentioned every widget on the homepage, adds more response time. Does all of that stuff fight against making the app faster? Not necessarily, but I'll give you a close example. So there's this trade-off of I want everyone to be faster, but also for some reason I'm running like macOS 13, and for my own understandable reasons, I don't want to abandon that.

45:11And so that prevents us from abandoning that OS if there's a meaningful number of people using it. So it's not like to have an excuse. I'm saying that there are a lot of things that we could do even though there are no trade-offs, and we are doing them. But in some cases, there are trade-offs. And so we always have to balance, okay, like, how many people are we preventing from using Evernote in the future in order to be able to update a library that drops support for that operating system? So it's kind of complex many times. Okay. And then the other thing is the price. Most of the people who are mad at Evernote, especially right now, are mad because you just changed the price and you just changed what people get who don't pay for Evernote.

45:54And the number of people who are like, I haven't been paying for Evernote, I've been using it for 15 years and now I'm quitting because they're charging me money. I have found myself wondering if you're sitting there being like, yes, precisely, that's the point. We have to make money. if you use this for free we're just losing money part of what you did in a big way when you bought Evernote was you changed the business model it charges very differently than it did the free tier is very different than it was how do you think through the business, especially for individual note taking, which as we talked about is a business a lot of people run away from because they just can't figure it out how do you think about what it takes to make that a business right now?

46:34Yeah I empathize with those people because it's not something that I don't understand, right? So we all use many different software products and it's not like we are happy when prices increase. And the same applies to me. So it's not like we are here saying, yeah, we're going to raise the price and it's going to be great. It's more about identifying the way to make Evernote the most successful that we can in order for it to be sustainable so that we can guarantee the glorious future. That's the point, right? The whole reason we increased prices is so that Evernote would have a glorious future looking ahead.

47:12And so what we try to do in this situation is to have a rigorous scientific approach. If you think of the extremes, if you charge$0, everybody's going to be happy, but then Evernote is going to be dead very soon. If you charge$1 ,000 per month, nobody's going to use Evernote anymore, and so it will die. So, of course, you have to find a balance. What I mean that we try to be scientific is that Evernote's prices weren't raised for seven years before we adjusted the pricing. And so we tried to rebalance that in a way that basically attempted to piss off the lowest amount of people that we could while increasing the Evernote's revenue as much as we could.

47:58And so we had to identify that delicate balance. And we take this stuff very seriously because it's not like we're happy when we read people who are pissed at Evernote. And so that was a tricky thing to do. But eventually, the cool thing, I can give you two interesting data points maybe. One thing is when we talk to customers, as I told you, it's so cool to observe how reasonable they are. Like most people we talk to who use Evernote a lot, they are saying, yeah, I saw the new prices. It's not like I'm happy about it. It's okay. I get a lot of value out of Evernote, far more than what you charge me.

48:35Now, let's go back to talking about how we can make Evernote better. Very quickly, the conversation shifts to, yeah, but okay, the price is fine, but let's talk about how to improve Evernote. Right, which is the conversation I'm sure you want to be having, right? Where it's like, make it worth my money. Exactly. Let's go. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. The other data point is the numbers. So when we look at how many people left Evernote versus not, etc., of course, we are always looking at that number in order to make these decisions. And the cool thing is that Evernote's retention has never been higher than today.

49:11So, yeah, of course, if you look on Reddit, you might imagine something different. But actually, the situation is kind of good. So, yeah. So are you going to raise the price more then? Did you go too low? No, we don't have any concrete plans to do that. Well, part of the reason I ask is I think we're in a moment right now where A, everything is becoming a subscription. And so subscription fatigue is pretty real. And B, all the prices seem to go up all the time. And I think there is a sense of I'd be willing to pay for this, but the more I invest in it, the more you as the company are going to be able to essentially blackmail me out of my money because you have all my stuff.

49:53And the harder it is to get out, the more you're going to be able to take from me before I'm willing to leave. And I think the fear of that trade is very real because people keep going through it, right? Like I sign up for a streaming service and I've been using Spotify for 10 years and Spotify gets more expensive like every 15 minutes now. And it sucks, but I don't leave because it would be a giant pain to leave Spotify. And that feels bad. And I think with something like Evernote, especially you've gone through all this change recently. And like, do you get to the point where you say, okay, we've done this.

50:25This is how we set this thing up. it was a painful change and now we're going to stop making those changes? Or does it make sense to say, you know, we're going to do this slowly and raise prices as we need to but try to make it kind of less painful each time? Yeah. Like it's the sort of rip the band-aid off approach versus like hope nobody notices when you raise prices a dollar? No, it's generally expensive, quote unquote, to raise prices because you don't want to piss people off. And so you want to do it the fewer times you can. So we did it once and we hope to be good for years now. So that's the approach.

51:05Of course, like every once in a while, every service needs to adjust prices, even just for inflation. You know, every once in a while, like it compounds. And so it becomes important after a few years. but yeah they're like the other thing is that I'm pretty optimistic about how this kind of thing balances itself like competition is strong both on note taking but also on other softwares and people are starting to build a sense for how to handle these things so I don't think there's the case where you can just like sneak in a price increase and people will not notice. That's true. I think people will notice and will notice and they will be, I'm very optimistic that people know how much value they're getting out of a product and they are kind of intentional in how they behave and if they want to stay subscribed versus not.

51:58How competitive does this space feel to you right now?

52:05We see it as not very competitive because we focus a lot on our customers and we try to build stuff because they need it rather than, And, oh, look what that other product is doing. We should build that. At the same time, there's no denying that there are a lot of products that compete in the same arena. So we need to be careful about both things. The cool thing is that by using the approach of only caring about our customers, quote unquote, is that you can build something unique. So you don't necessarily need to participate to the race, which is cool. Who else do you look at that you feel like is doing cool stuff right now?

52:43I take a lot of inspiration from stuff that is not necessarily note-taking software. So for instance, I'm a big fan of Slack. Oh my God, you are going to build WorkChat again. No, no, no. Don't build WorkChat again. I don't think we are. I think there's very little reason to do that. Especially because getting a feature parity or even just to a reasonable percentage of the feature set that softwares like Slack have is hard. So I don't think I want to compete with them. But for instance, slash comments, it's such a great UX that it's just obvious that every software should have it. Another thing I'm a big fan of is, I don't know how it's called, maybe quick switcher.

53:25You know how on Slack you hit CMDK and you can switch from one channel to the other? The same thing exists on Evernote. It's just CMDJ instead of K. It should be J everywhere, by the way, to anyone who's listening. Do you think so? It should be J because K is how you insert links in most apps. and J should be for switching, K should be for links. You don't know how many people tell me the opposite. I have deep religion on this. There are a lot of people who believe it's K and they're wrong. We can switch links if we want to, but one should be J and one should be K and the fact that one is K when you have some text selected and the other one is K when you don't have text selected, bad UI.

54:00I agree. I think it should be the same everywhere. I don't have any strong opinion on which one it should be. Then it should be J. Get on board with me. Let's do this. Team command J. It's already J. So I've heard it's good. Perfect. I think it could be even more powerful. So first of all, people don't know about it. And I think it's so powerful that they should. And so I would like for people to know about it. The second thing is that I think it could do so much more. Like right now on Evernote you can use the quick switcher to navigate to a note or something like that. But I think you could use it to like delete a note, for instance.

54:33Like you're inside a note, CMDJ, Dell, you write like D-E-L and you hit enter and it deletes the note. and you could do a bunch of different things with that, like share or something like that. That's a cool idea. That's another one that you mentioned the kind of universal slash command thing that's starting to happen. That sort of thing is starting to happen more and more places where you bring up the kind of universal command bar and it lets you do stuff. Exactly. I think that's very cool. Like Raycast, right? Yeah, exactly. I'm a huge fan of Alfred Raycast and that archetype. But that is the kind of stuff that is so power user-y and I think about a lot of people who use tools like Evernote who are the folks who are like not even necessarily learning the keyboard shortcuts for like copy and paste most people don't do that stuff and so I think with any tool like this and it goes back to kind of what you were saying about customization trying to build something that starts very simply and then scales all the way up to what the most power users want it's like that's the dream but I feel like from an actual interface perspective it's so easy to make that into just a gigantic mess that actually helps no one.

55:45I think in that direction I think we did kind of well the mobile navigation. I think that you want to give A, a good default that people who are not power users and don't care about being power users they can still use it in a satisfying way. And then you can customize it if you're a power user and you don't want the create page to be your default homepage, then you can just customize it and make it so that the note list is your homepage. And it took a while to nail it because I think we tested nine different iterations, I think, of the new navigation and homepage. And then after those nine iterations, then we added the customization setting.

56:27So you can customize which page opens when you launch the app and how the nav bar looks. you can switch between notebooks and shortcuts in the navbar. So I think that's a good approach. It's not necessarily perfect or finished yet, but it's good. I think that we should aim at doing the same thing everywhere, like where you have for every feature you have a strong default, and then those who want more customization can customize it. Okay, I buy that. So it feels like you're in a good place where kind of the basic infrastructure of Evernote is in a solid place. You've built a bunch of new stuff, you've shipped a bunch of new stuff.

57:00as you think to like the next 18 months, what are some of the big, not, you don't have to tell me about features, you can if you'd like to, but sort of big picture things that are like top of your mind right now. Either the things that are still at the top of the list that customers are asking you for or just like interesting things you want to work on in the next year or so. Any note-taking software, but especially Evernote, needs to like nail the basics really well. And it doesn't do it every time. And I would like it to be perfect every time. And then you have collaboration and AI. I think both are promising.

57:33Both are not necessarily core to Evernote. So I would like to split between things that are core and sort of non-negotiable almost, like the two that we just mentioned. And then things that if done well could be very cool. And you kind of want both, right? You want stuff that's non-negotiable to be done perfectly. And then you want some stuff that's just cool and you want to have it in your tools. And so stuff like one-click sharing, Do you think any of those things are the thing that go out and get all the people who don't use a notes app? Because I think it's easy to forget when you care about this stuff that most people don't.

58:13And that most people don't use any of these tools. They just live in chaos and like monsters. And I don't like any of them. You just like live your life with a million open tabs until your computer falls apart. And there you are. So I think, like, is the next phase of this, like, if AI search gets really good, maybe that's how we start to get to those people? Like, have you started thinking about the non-Evernote users much yet? Yeah, I think for them, the most important thing is, as we were saying, ease of use and a strong default. I think that they were not trying Evernote because it was a bit cumbersome to learn.

58:49like you land on Evernote and then if the first thing you see is a page with widgets and you're expecting to write notes, you're a bit like uncomfortable, you're thinking yeah how do I write a note here and like why is it so complicated so I think that in order to attract them you need to have strong use cases that they might not find elsewhere but especially like a very good user experience and so we're also working on that I'm excited to try it well we should go, but thank you so much for doing this thank you very much all right that's it for the verge cast today thank you to federico for coming on and nerding out about productivity apps with me and thank you as always for listening thank you by the way for all of the nice feedback we've gotten on this series i've had fun and i've learned a ton and it's been great to hear from everyone else who has as well as always if you have thoughts questions feelings or evernote alternatives that you swear are better and i should totally try you can always email us at vergecast at the verge.com or call the hotline 866 verge 11 we love hearing from you productivity.

59:47We got other mini series stuff coming up this fall. Lots going on. Keep all your questions coming. This show is produced by Liam James, Will Poore, and Eric Gomez. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. The Verge Cast is a Verge production and part of the Fox Media Podcast Network. We'll be back on Tuesday and Friday with our regularly scheduled programming. We got a lot of reviews to talk about. We got a lot of Apple stuff to talk about. We got a lot more events coming up. Lots going on. We'll see you then. Rock and roll.

1:00:45We'll see you next time. Dave. It's up to you. We'll take the laundry. Rinse. It's time to be great.