The problem with Telegram

27:20Yeah, exactly. We cannot go to France. I was like, who are those CEOs? It's like Mark Zuckerberg. What? Elon Musk? They're fine. It's a lot of them, right? Like, you know. What if Andy Jassy could go to jail because something bad happened on Twitch? But all of us, yes. He should for Amazon Kindle app. Like, Sundar Pichai should go to jail for what happens on YouTube is like a pretty weird jump, right? Yeah. At the same time, all of those companies actively cooperate with law enforcement all the time. For sure. In ways good and bad. I think on our lightning round list is like Mark Zuckerberg sending a letter to Jim Jordan in Congress this week saying we caved to the Biden administration too much.

28:00I think that letter is like political theater. But like that's what I mean by active cooperation in the government on both sides. He's saying we cooperated with Biden administration and I was cooperating with Jim Jordan saying we cooperated with Biden administration. Like the big companies in this country at least are actively engaged with various governments around the world in various ways. and I think that insulates them from Mark Zuckerberg getting arrested in France. Here you just have this other thing. It is so different, like architecturally and how the app works, user experience-wise and the one to 200 ,000 kind of opportunities you have, moderation-wise in that they do literally nothing with the worst content anyone can possibly imagine, and then policy-wise in that they have structured it to make it impossible for the authorities to even arrest the people they can see with their own eyes.

28:49and kind of raise the middle finger to them in the process. And you just stack all that up. You're like, that is a lot of decisions that land you in French jail. I wonder how it's going to affect Elon because he'd really been trying to take the same path with X that Durov's been doing of just being like the free speech absolutionist. Is that how you say it? Oh, I completely disagree with that. I understand the argument. That's what he wants is all the thing. Yeah, he's always like, it's all about free speech. And he fundamentally is very different in how he actually does that because he's always like, oh, you want me to take that down?

29:22Done. But like – Yeah, I mean his definition of free speech and we – you know, look at the tweet is if people want speech regulations, they should pass laws and that's how democracy is supposed to work and I will follow the law. And you're like you're – that's the weirdest definition of free speech that exists because you're asking for government speech regulations. And what they have followed historically has been draconian speech laws in other countries. Yeah, right. Like India has draconian speech laws. X complies with them. Brazil has new draconian speech laws and he doesn't like the government.

29:55So you won't. It's like it's this weird balance of like, actually, I'll do whatever I want. But like, if I don't want to get into a fight with the government or I like the government there, I'll do what they say, which is just not a position. Right. That is just pure opportunism. And I think the noise around Durov getting arrested in France is like useful for him in his ongoing quest to be perceived as a free speech martyr. But if you look at his posts lately, you can tell he's like in an intellectual spiral because his position has no center. There's actually no ideological commitment to anything.

30:33So if you're like, I would wish to defy the government, but I might get arrested. Also, some of that stuff is horrible. also I'm still like I'm suing advertisers for antitrust there's nothing there like there's there's literally no center there's no intellectual center to that position and you can kind of see him be like oh crap this is what free speech might actually mean I don't want to I don't want to over intellectualize Elon's you know ketamine musings or whatever the fuck it is but it's like you can you can see it's starting like the pressure welcome to hell is basically I'm Like the internal contradictions of owning a platform like X and all of the demands that are placed on that, I think it's starting to wear on them a little bit.

31:11Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and I think we should probably move on from this. But the thing that keeps coming up to me as I read these stories and talk to people about this, there's been a ton of good reporting on this, by the way. Good week for the journalists out there, is how much that the sort of legal push against the tech industry is still going along the lines of we have to protect the children. uh like so much of this is about the c sam stuff that's happening on telegram and the laws that have been passed recently uh i think it was i think it was britain that recently passed a law last year uh that explicitly allows the executives of tech companies to be held personally responsible for c sam stuff and child safety stuff on their platform in general if they're told about it and don't do anything about it like that's that's now a law that exists and and this idea of uh We have to protect children being like the most bipartisan thing you'll find anywhere on any line of political reasoning.

32:12That's how we're getting towards all of this. And it's just it's just fascinating that that continues to be the thing that is like the deeper this goes, the more it's about child safety. That's that's always the argument for censorship. That's always like the first line of arguments for censorship is we must think of the children. Well, no, it's Hollywood first and then child safety. Yeah, it's never it's never not Mickey Mouse first. Yeah, Mickey Mouse and then child safety almost always. Like there's a great Simpsons episode about that exact thing. And then all of the big fights in the 90s over TV ratings and stuff like that where you had like Clinton.

32:44Yeah. And then all these Republicans getting together being like, won't anyone think of these babies? Right. You can get anything done if you can convince people it's about keeping children safe. Yeah. And I agree with you. And, you know, Tipper Gore put the explicit lyrics label on all the CDs. That was Tipper Gore. Yeah. It was Tipper Gore. Very weird. Tipper Gore versus NWA. Just imagine how far we've come. It's super weird. But the reason that you do that is if you can make the counterargument seem morally indefensible, you win. Right. But here, I just want to come back to, it is really there.

33:23Oh, yeah. The CSAM is there. It's very bad. and so like sometimes you just have to say it's there and it's bad and you have to do something about it and that's if you listen to this show or Dakota or read us for years like the free speech debate online has raged and we have struggled with it and we've done endless episodes about it but like you need an ideological center right that's what I'm saying and it's there ISIS is there like you don't have to overthink it you just have to make it go away and hold the people responsible for it? Accountable. And I think here it's like, well, that's an easy line.

34:01There are lots of gray areas and lots of much harder lines. That one feels pretty easy to me. Yeah. All right. We should wrap it up. I promise we'll talk about doing other more fun crimes in the next section. We'll be right back. Support for this show comes from LinkedIn. When you're a small business owner, your business is on your mind 24-7. So when you're hiring, you need a partner that works just as hard as you do. That hiring partner is LinkedIn Jobs. When you clock out, LinkedIn clocks in. LinkedIn makes it easy to post your job for free, share it with your network, and get qualified candidates that you can manage all in one place.

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37:59We're back with more crimes. Fun crimes. Antitrust crimes. Are these? They're less bummer crimes. I don't know if they're more fun crimes. I would say that. Not a lot of whimsical crimes. the the grok ai being so out of control that you can just make like hillary clinton do gta is legitimately very funny to me okay yeah fair enough i'll give you that like i have a lot of deep reservations about deep fakes and what is a photo and lies on the internet and then i'm like it's also hilarious to have elon musk go on an ayahuasca journey at the end of it have his deep fake character say i'm starting in soup kitchen which is a real video i watched today

38:46it's like you put your so brother oh my god i don't want to tell you uh it's all very good uh with an elon voice too all of it's great don't look at it respect the truth photography is sacrosanct i laughed i did lol uh let's start with the the big one david you said this is the story of segment two it's yelp sues google for antitrust violations so okay did you guys think that yelp had already sued google because i definitely thought yelp sued google like a long time ago yeah yelp at this point is a front for suing google right is that basically it's i think everyone who works at yelp is just lawyers now um yes but anyway so very recently earlier this summer a couple weeks ago uh google lost its antitrust search trial uh we're still in the remedies phase and then there will be appeals and then god only knows but for now it lost uh and so yelp clearly emboldened by that fact uh filed a suit of its own that basically brings up something that got thrown out of the last case against google which i find really interesting and essentially the argument is that google prioritizes its own stuff in google search results and thus deprioritizes yelp and trip advisor and other companies like it and has thus killed them this is an argument we've been hearing forever this is an argument yelp has been making loudly forever literally i assumed yelp had already sued google apparently it hadn't and now what yelp seems to be thinking like jeremy stoppelman the ceo said in as many words the winds on antitrust have shifted dramatically so this company clearly senses this is the moment to finally pick the fight it's been wanting to pick for many years which i think is very odd given that that particular fight has been thrown out of court in the same search trial that google just lost so i'm confused but also i think it's fascinating and uh yet again like google is just up against it man like the the epic stuff is happening the search stuff is happening this is happening like it's just it just keeps happening for google there's an ad tech trial yeah i say that like people know it is Google has yet another antitrust trial coming up over its ad tech stack, which is the money.

41:07I mean, wasn't this like Google strategy? They would spend 20 years fucking around and then now they're in their find out phase and that's why they have all the lawyers that they pay a lot of money to. Yeah. I mean, there's something I agree with Jeremy Stoppelman. The winds of antitrust have definitely changed. I actually can point to a very, very odd example of this. uh luther low who is yelp's old policy person recently left yelp he's doing all this stuff i think he's a y combinator now and they did uh like a meet and greet in dc you know like a little thing and uh jd vance before he was vice presidential candidate showed up at the meet and greet with all the startups talk about how he used to be an ad tech and he thought big tech was censoring everyone and the woke lab was out of control and in the middle of all that nonsense he was like I think Lena Khan's doing a good job yes weird like weird right like that's how much the winds of antitrust has changed he's like the only person that by demonstration is doing a good job is Lena Khan because we should break up and really his point was like because this woke bullshit is out of control and like maybe that doesn't all put together like that puzzle you put all the pieces together you're like that doesn't look like anything but he still said it right like that's where the mindset is is these companies have too much control and we should take that control away from them and do something else.

42:24What the something else is, I think all of us are very curious to find out. It's clearly going to be something else. But you look at Google, which is just taking it on the chin lately, right? In the search case, in the Epic case they lost, and the judge in that case has been very loud, like, you did it. I'm going to do something about it. And then the ad tech case, which we don't know what's going to happen. Every trial is kind of a coin flip. but we're going to get a documents about google's money in that case like it's gonna some stuff is going to come out because it's going to be the business side of google talking about the money yeah and i i think google's image is very cuddly as though the money just appears from nowhere and that's not true and that's also the trial let's not forget that google wrote a just without any questions just wrote a check for the maximum possible to avoid having a jury trial like innocent you know innocent until proven guilty but that's a tough look can we just sit on that for one second this is a real thing we have a picture of the check on the website i believe they just wrote a check to the department of justice for the maximum like a cashier's check yeah i believe it's drawn on wells fargo and they're like here's all of the money we could possibly owe you we would like to settle the case like out of the blue yeah it's incredible just to not have a jury trial.

43:41And I mean, it's at Wells Fargo, so it'll take about, what, 12 years before it gets cash. The blockchain solves this, Alice. Sorry, sorry. Have you heard of Lightning? Okay, so back to Yelp. I think the wins have changed is an opportunity for maybe not to win like Epic, right? Yelp doesn't have a Fortnite in the background to fund all this stuff. but I think maybe to claw out a settlement out of Google to somehow put some pressure on Google to open up and make this go away to appease the Europeans in some way whatever you think of Google's relationship the internet it is changing and I think that as we've said a million times that means the internet's going to change so you think Yelp wants to be to Google what like the Delta emulator folks have been to Apple which is just just sort of the one in there just like prying it open slightly.

44:36And they're in a position of weakness and going to have to start to make policy changes that are good for you, but also good for everybody. And so Yelp is like, we don't want to break up Google. We just think this is a chance to extract some of what we want from the company because they're going to decide it's easier to do that. It's kind of necessary for Yelp at this point because they've been struggling for a while, right? They have resorted to basically bullying restaurants and stuff and making sure that they're on their their platform and everything here's what we can do we can shake down millions of local restaurants or we can get a check from google which is yeah i mean it kind of feels like what it is for y 'all there's so many companies you can describe with that sentence good god well so uh there was somebody who was on thread say who uh who posted that i've i've been more cantankerous lately can i can i just describe my joker moment broadly because I love that these companies are having these fights.

45:30I love the internet's going to be potentially more open. I love that at least we're in a season of change. All that's great. I do not for one second believe any of this is truly idealistic, right? I think this is a version of capitalism at play where a lot of very self-interested parties are looking out for their own self-interest and they're colliding in weird ways. Great. The reason I say it that way is because a long time ago I used to cover net neutrality like every other day. and the big player in net neutrality was Netflix. If you will recall, Netflix and Reddit were like out in front, like black out the internet, fight for net neutrality.

46:05We don't let Comcast throttle us disclosure. Comcast is an investor in this company. And boy, did they not like my net neutrality coverage. Just putting it all out there. And then one year, Reed Hastings was on stage at the Code Conference, so I believe Peter Kafka. And Peter said, you've been really quiet about net neutrality lately. And Reed Hastings looked at him and said, yeah we're so big it doesn't matter anymore and i turned into the joker that's honest wow and like fine right like fine and so i like the idea that yelp is a idealistic freedom fighter or even delta even though it's a smaller company i do think they are pressing their regulatory advantage to open up these platforms oh yeah but i don't think that like they're the they're gonna get theirs right and then all bets are off and i i think all of this change is like who's gonna get theirs at the end of this.

46:51And so like, we're going to shake down a bunch of restaurants or shake down Google is kind of the best in my mind, like the best way to understand it. Like everyone's just trying to get paid. Whether or not the legal system can shift the money around in a more equitable way at the end of all this totally remains to be seen. I truly do not know. In a funny way, what you're arguing for is capitalism working as intended. Everyone fighting for money is what it should be. What we've landed on is nobody can fight for money because Google took it all. yeah that's true capitalism has never been tried david i think that's what i'm trying to tell you yeah what if it was just a street fight for money let's find out is postmodern capitalism just google opening its wallet yeah you have like sorry you come all the way that's the horseshoe theory of internet capitalism is google is the planned economy director just handing money to people uh i'm not saying that's not what everybody wants okay so that's google we'll see what happens with Yelp and Google, but you can see, like, as we keep saying, whatever happens to Google is the internet, but you can just see the internet sort of like fracturing around, around that already.

47:55Uh, this other one I think is really interesting. Uh, it's a weird ruling. Uh, TikTok has to face a lawsuit for recommending the blackout challenge. And this is a very, very sad story. There is a 10 year old who died doing the blackout challenge. Um, the parents And so TikTok, you know, one of those cases where it's like TikTok didn't make the blackout challenge videos. They didn't. They're not telling you to do it. Right. The people are seeing the content on the platform. They're taking the action. Horrible, extremely depressing thing happened. And now we're going to try to hold TikTok liable.

48:32And throughout most of this, we are not holding platforms liable for what the recommendation algorithms do. except we just had a Supreme Court ruling which said maybe we should. Like more or less maybe we should. So one of the weirdest things about this case is that it's like a puzzle the Supreme Court put itself in. So there were content moderation laws passed in Texas and Florida. They went up to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court basically said, no, these are weird. You're just obviously conservative states being mad at Facebook. but you didn't think about what would happen to other platforms or smaller platforms.

49:09You have to go think about this before you have to like go back and figure it out. The one thing the Supreme Court was very clear about was that it is protected first party speech when they curate other people's content. Right. So section 230 says you Facebook are not responsible for what people post on platform for mostly. That's their speech, not your speech. the way you moderate that speech and present it to other people is your speech so that's protected by the first amendment you cannot the government cannot set content moderation rules because the content moderation itself is speech right okay that feels right generally that feels right that's how you're gonna market it from platforms that's how you end up with a truth social and an x and then whatever kindergarten subreddit rules you want to participate in right like that's how you get the whole range of expression the marketing can sort of decide how much content moderation they want.

50:02The court, the Third Circuit, evaluated in TikTok case, says, well, quote, given the Supreme Court's observation that platforms engage in protected first-party speech under the First Amendment when they curate compilations of other people's content via their expressive algorithms, it follows that doing so amounts to first-party speech under Section 230. So the algorithm is your speech. That means you're liable for your speech. So if you recommend a bunch of blackout challenge videos, that's your speech. that's a choice you've made now you're liable for your speech and it's calling that curation which is really fascinating so this is just like a long a long chain of reasoning that ends with okay some of this belongs to you so the government can tell you what to do but it belongs to you so now other people can get mad at you for it and that i don't know how that's going to shake out i don't know if tiktok is the right plaintiff for that they're tiktok after all we just talked about save the children is a theme uh the tiktok versus the united states government versus china that's all in the mix there.

50:58Whether or not TikTok can like mount a challenge to this, kind of a huge precedent to say these algorithms are not only your speech and can be protected from laws and can be protected from government interference, but also now other people can sue you for your algorithms. Yeah. I mean, that like breaks the internet, right? Like, because it doesn't just break TikTok, which arguably should be broken because I hate its algorithm right now, but it breaks Facebook. It breaks Google because Google is using an algorithm to recommend search results. Yeah. You're showing me bad stuff is now legally actionable is off we go, you know?

51:38And like, yeah, fine. But I don't think we're ready for that world either. So the other side of the coin, the non-Google side of the coin also sort of up for grabs because of what's happening in the legal system, which just, again, say this to you, I'm trying to have the end of summer here i'm trying to drink a pina colada and the pdfs just keep coming non-stop killing me all right let's do one more pdf and then we got to get out of here the p the pina colada's wait uh this one is is a tough one because it's not actually the law yet and i actually don't know if gavin newsom is going to sign this bill but the california state assembly passed an ai safety bill what's going on in here david so it's called the safe and secure innovation for frontier Artificial Intelligence Models Act, which just rolls off the tongue.

52:19Does that spell anything? S-S-I-F-A-I-M-A. No. Sifema. No. All good laws are backronyms. Everyone needs to remember this. If your law is not a backronym, it's not a good law. It's just, it's so important to me that everyone understands that. Just get the A-I-D-D-D-S-T-A-G-B to make a name, man. Yeah, right? Can you, like, the insane things people have done. I think the people writing this bill weren't fans of AI, though. That's true. They weren't going to have to chat GPT do it. This law, they should have found a way to make it spell out artificial with all the letters and it would have been amazing.

52:55But alas, it is mostly just called SB 1047. It's an AI safety bill that I would say concerns itself as we've been talking about in part with who is responsible for bad things that happen downstream of AI models. And it changes the way that companies need to test and train these things it changes the way that they need to talk to the government like it's it's kind of a sweeping like here's how we want to oversee and think about ai models uh there's been a lot of backing and forthing open ai kind of came out against it anthropic was like we love it let's change some stuff uh there have been a bunch of politicians who are against it a bunch of politicians who are for it i agree it seems very debatable whether gavin newsom will sign this thing as it currently stands.

53:46But it does still feel like a moment that it passed out of the assembly the way that it has. If he signs it, does that just mean like Google, OpenAI, a lot of these companies relocate? Well, California is still a huge market. Yeah. Well, that, but also one of the things a lot of the companies have said essentially is, why are you making a law to make us do what we've already promised to do, which is essentially make sure our AI is not going to destroy the world. And I would argue that's a very funny line of reasoning to be like, we said, we're going to be cool. Why are you going to make me be cool?

54:20Is, is, is an odd stance. Um, but my sense is, and again, all of this could change, especially as the law, you know, continues to change. And depending on how it gets implemented is that a lot of these companies are going to not like it, but we'll figure out a way to play along. I don't think this is the sort of thing that is like going to run anybody out of california yeah yeah anthropic sent a letter basically supporting it and to your point they're like yeah but then you read the letter and like we should definitely do something here's just a line from anthropic's letter we believe sp 1047 particularly after recent amendments likely presents a feasible compliance burden for companies like ours in light of the importance of averting catastrophic misuse yeah cool like yeah there's a real chance we might destroy the world so So let's do a feasible compliance burden.

55:13Whoops. Yeah. I don't know how this plays. You know, Biden had the AI order that just came out. A bunch of companies said they were going to join the AI model board that makes sure their safety testing and releases results. This one feels like, in particular, Gavin Newsom has to make a decision. and then that will decide whether a bunch of similar state laws get passed all around the country because once california does it it's it's like fine like new york will do it tomorrow right because now you're not making them do anything like you're just like off to the races and then and then alex your point the question is like whether texas does or doesn't do it and it doesn't matter because all the researchers are in california anyway right like and you have to sell to the California market and then there you go.

55:59So I'm very confused about this one in the sense that what you really need is a federal law and that doesn't seem likely and it's also election season and who knows what's going to happen. But it also seems like Newsom kind of doesn't want to sign it. He hasn't said anything. Like usually when you're the governor of the big state with the first in the nation AI safety bill, you're like pounding the pavement and he literally has not said anything to anyone. Like affects who gives him money for his presidential campaign in four years. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean, I also think like we're in a moment right now where all of the money on planet Earth is being thrown at AI.

56:42And there are a lot of very powerful, very rich people who will be happy to yell about you being anti-progress if you sign a bill that does anything perceived to be slowing it down. And I think it was OpenAI that was like, we need a federally driven set of AI policies rather than, you know, just a bunch of different state laws about how this and that's what will really foster innovation. And this is like the same thing everybody says about everything, which is like we would so, so love to have regulation as long as it's like the perfect regulation and doesn't slow anyone down or cost us any money.

57:15But it would be like so good. Like Mark Zuckerberg did this. The crypto industry has been doing this forever. Everybody wants there to be rules until there are rules. And then everybody's like, well, what if there was just like a simpler set of rules that I could just like do? Like that'd be fine. By the way, in case you're wondering what SB 1047 says, you have to make it possible to quickly and fully shut the model down. You have to – right? You just need to unplug the Terminator. That seems fine. Yeah. You have to ensure the model is protected against unsafe post-training modifications, which is hard.

57:45and then you have to have a testing procedure to see whether a model or its derivatives are especially at risk of causing critical harm. So this is a lot. Like some of that is pretty fuzzy. Some of it is like you just have to be able to unplug it. I was like those last two are super fuzzy. Yeah, the like how do you prove this isn't going to destroy the world is actually a really hard question. What is critical harm? But I would argue that if you're launching a product and you have to ask that question, we should ask that question a lot, right? Like Ford doesn't come out with a 2025 Bronco Sport and immediately be like, will this destroy the world?

58:17Neil, did you watch Oppenheimer? I'm just saying. The probability is near zero. There are so few products in the world where we're like, what is this going to destroy the world? If you are really crushing as a project manager, you're not going to ask those questions. You're going to be happy you're hitting deadlines. You got user stories to collect. You don't have time to worry about that. I'm just like, you know, the TikToker is doing like bottled water. It's not like... All right. By the way, there's just a reminder for me, mental note. There's like two or three TikTok gadget companies I think we should write profiles of.

58:50I won't tell you who they are, but if you have thoughts, email us at The Verge. There's one in particular. I'm like, where did they come from? Are they the next anchor? Just a little mystery drop. All right, we got to take a break. We're going to come back. Whetting around part two, the fun one. Huh? The fun one. Unsponsored. We'll be right back. Support for this show comes from LinkedIn. When you're a small business owner, your business is on your mind 24-7. So when you're hiring, you need a partner that works just as hard as you do. That hiring partner is LinkedIn Jobs. When you clock out, LinkedIn clocks in.

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1:02:53Alright we're back no one can tell us what to do because they haven't paid us any money. And what I'm suggesting here is you could pay us money. I don't know how that works and I probably still won't do what you say, but you know, live a life of possibility. I have one verge cast listener slash startup executive who I will not name, who asked me very seriously recently, if we actually want people to sponsor the lightning round, or if we enjoy this bit so much that we actually don't want people. And I was like, no, to be very clear, I like money more than I like bits. We will take, please sponsor the lightning round.

1:03:27Can I do an aside about the influencer? I've been thinking a lot about journals versus influencers, the whole thing. Here's the problem that we have. When you give other people money, they do what you say. People come to our sales team and they're like, will they do what we say? And we're kind of like, no. Just like flatly, no. There's a real problem with journalism as a whole right now, fighting an uphill fight. But there's always a chance. Huh? I do think our enthusiasm for a sponsor of the lightning round might make it the greatest ROI in the history of the version. Like we will talk about whoever that sponsor is forever.

1:04:06Unless they suck, in which case we will see. See, you never know. Life's a game of chance. Roll the dice, people. Sponsor the lightning round. All right. True lightning round. I'm going to read a headline. We're all going to react to it. We're going to move on. Right. This is the idea. Yeah. Okay, here we go. Google Gemini will let you create AI generated people again. Remember the diverse Nazis? Those were the days. We're back. Google says they fixed it. Only white Nazis now. You all talked at length about what is a photo last week with reimagining the pixel. Yeah, I had a bit of a freak out that I still am getting a lot of notes from people about, and I feel very good about as time goes on.

1:04:44Yeah, I feel, by the way, yes, we're going to defend the sanctity of photography here. I feel nothing about this. my only question is it feels like Google's attitude about this has slightly shifted right like they diverse Nazis were a thing and they they killed it because now they're like actually killed it because a bunch of people were like we should be able to make diverse Nazis weird um and they took it down because like we don't want to say oh I we I don't know how Gemini is gonna work now but reimagine they're just like yeah let it ride right like it's more or less their attitude towards it yep well I just it feels like something has shifted there and I'm not sure what with Google.

1:05:20Was it six months ago that the Gemini thing first happened? Yeah. It was like earlier this year. Wild how much this has shifted in six months. Cause I totally agree with you. There's more safety rules there. Like re-imagine is not supposed to add a bunch of drugs to like, I don't think that's what they want, but you can't add people at all. And you can't add people. It won't touch people. We don't know how this one's going to work. So there's some shit. I'm saying there's a shift. It's not the next thing we're going to talk about, which is just a free for all, but there's some little shift inside of Google that says, okay, the market is willing to accept a little bit more crazy.

1:05:53And like, here we are seeing it free for all XAI is new Grok image generator floods X with controversial AI fakes. That is a very soft headline. Again, that's okay. Here's a little, little quick. We're almost like a little too nice. No, little, little quick, how the internet works thing. Um, that's actually the SEO optimized headline that goes to Google. Can I read you the headline that's on our website? Ah, this makes more sense. Yes. X's new AI image generator will make anything from Taylor Swift and lingerie to Kamala Harris with a gun. Yeah, we should. I don't know. That's what Google wants.

1:06:24Kamala Harris with a gun is all anybody searching nowadays, let alone the other thing. It's bananas. Like, again, I've watched hilarious videos of like Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton in an armed standoff on X. And the underlying technology is called Flux, which is an open source AI system. So even if X added the controls, he now sort of like opened everyone's eyes to Flux, which is open source. You can just do whatever you want with. And Flux is, by all accounts, very good. It's very good. You can just go watch the thing. It's just very funny that Grok, like Elon Musk, I mean, he wants to be a famous person, right?

1:07:01He released his own completely out of control deepfake tool on his own platform. And the number of deepfakes of him are out of control. What was the one you were saying you were seeing before? it's Elon Musk it's a long video okay where Elon Musk narrates his ayahuasca journey there's a there's like a nightmare dream sequence in the middle of it and at the end of it he commits to do like giving like free food to everyone like soup kitchens and also says he's going to build a public transport system and it is it's perfect like it is a perfect Elon Musk troll yeah that's amazing robot Elon Musk I defects should be illegal like Speaking of laws that are coming, a lot of people agree that deepfakes should be legal, especially non-consensual pornography deepfakes.

1:07:48This is going to be a weird fight. It's going to be a weird fight. Scarlett Johansson does not want her voice being used by OpenAI. She's filed that complaint. I do not know how these are going to go because it feels like we just let the cat out of the bag. Talk about feasible compliance. Here we go. We have a picture of Mickey Mouse smoking a cigarette on TheVerge.com today. It's so good. Yes. Next one, smart home company Brilliant has found a buyer. David, did you ever have a Brilliant? I did briefly. Wow. I knew it. I had one of the earliest, earliest ones I met with our founders before they even launched the product, and they gave me a prototype of one.

1:08:23I put it in my wall, and then I had a balcony at my apartment, and it turned on the balcony light permanently. It just wouldn't turn it off. And that was my experience with the first Brilliant. Brilliant stuff actually got very good. They made most of their business going into apartment buildings and stuff, but just never really made it work. Yeah. This is the, what if you had an iPod touch in your wallet that controlled all your smart home stuff? Yeah, exactly. And Jen Toohey, our brilliant smart home reviewer, reported they were going out of business, which they kind of denied, and then they went out of business.

1:08:59But rescued by those white knights of American capitalism, private equity. Ah, our people. We love them. The company is now called. Rescued us. The company is now called Brilliant Next Gen, which is just brutal. And it seems like what we know so far is that people who had brilliant stuff, their stuff is going to continue to work. What happens after that? I don't know. Um, the, the new leadership did say they're going to stop selling direct to consumer stuff anywhere other than their website, which I think is a pretty strong signal that they are going further and further into the like selling into new construction business, which makes a certain amount of sense.

1:09:41A lot of these companies like Amazon has focused a lot on that with Alexa stuff. There's been this big race to be the sort of default choice for professional builders. I know that when I was still in the rental market, what I looked for in an apartment was a six-year-old unsupported iPod touch built right into the wall. It's the dream. So I was like, get these non-iPod touch apartments out of my face. Yeah, but I think it's, this company has always been, I would say, more sort of B2B than like a thing a regular person would consider buying. Like you go to Home Depot and you're gonna buy a Lutron, not this, right?

1:10:16Like I think that's pretty clear. But it'll be interesting to see if they can get it righted or if this just becomes kind of a slow death for a smart home company yeah i feel like if you have one of these in your wall you're you're running at the clock on that cloud service continuing to work yeah that's right yeah all right espn where to watch feature finds where to stream sporting events they basically made tv guide but for streaming that has ever happened to me in my entire life this is pretty funny i spent like a lot of yesterday trying to find the catch in this and i think there's like a big galaxy brain strategy but also this is just like a good nice thing for the internet uh espn released a thing that just gives you a list of all the games that are being played which is like a thing that every sports app has right except for apple sports which doesn't but you can go and you can see where all the games are what the score is whatever and now it just has a tv guide thing where you can it'll say it's playing on mlb tv or it's playing on tnt or this mls game is on apple tv plus like it just tells you where to stream sports which seems like a thing that should not be complicated or need to exist a picture of a pirate ship and a reddit logo anywhere in the sub yeah there's just one that says parentheses it's a russian website against like half of these you will be extradited exactly uh but i like espn did this whole big media day on wednesday this week and essentially made clear that it is making this pivot from being a cable channel to like a sports lifestyle brand uh that was how sarah fisher at axios explained it and i think that was really right uh they're about to launch a streaming service that shows you all the espn stuff like espn the cable channel is going to be a streaming service they're part of venue sports espn's whole thing is they're just like we want you to come to espn when you want to watch sports even if you go somewhere else because they have the rights if you open the espn app first we win right because that's how you bet that's how you get into fantasy all this stuff and so espn is like deep in the weeds of like how do we become a destination for all things sports all the time uh and this is both a very good idea in that vein and also just like a useful page that i am going to load every single day for the rest of my life i have a question was this originally supposed to be a venue launch party or something because wasn't venue like supposed to launch around now before fubo killed it it was another another antitrust lawsuit in the background yeah the entire internet economy maybe but venue was supposed to have everything in it venue is the opposite strategy right where espn is trying to send you to every other service and then he was like we're gonna buy everything and fubo's dead and fubo's like yes hold on a minute espn was gonna be a part of this so then you know you'd go and you'd look and be like oh what should i watch oh it's all on venue I sure should subscribe to Venue.

1:13:03It's a TV guide, but the answer is one channel. Just one channel every time. I can see it. But you know what's so telling about the sports industry is it wouldn't have been that way. The thing that is ostensibly the streaming service for all the sports is not actually the streaming service for all the sports. This is why it's so terrible. It was going to be like 60%, I think. Yeah, which is fine. And I think Venue, if it eventually launches, will be a useful thing that I'm sure I will give too much money to. but like the fact that you can go on here and it will tell you the game is on prime video or that the game is on apple tv plus is like a genuine user interface victory uh and i also think it makes a lot of sense for espn as like a big how low our standards have fallen this is what i mean tv guide literally it looks like all right we're moving on david i feel like that you're gonna try to convince some people to buy this thing and i'm telling you already immediately saying i have it this thing is called the plod note pin yeah uh and it's we're just in this phase of everybody launching little tiny voice recorders that then use chat gpt to summarize whatever they hear like they all have bigger ideas but that's essentially what it is uh this one is just cool because it's like a little it's a little guy it's a wearable it comes with a lanyard and a clip and something else oh and a thing you can wear on your wrist so the idea is like it's a it's a wearable you you tap it you talk to it it summarizes your notes is that anything i don't know but this is like this is the thing right like microsoft recall is a version of this the limitless thing which we've talked about is a version of this this idea of like how do we make it easy for you to input all of your stuff into an ai system and then it will make something out of that for you is like a the big new product question for a lot of these companies.

1:14:56I don't know if any of it amounts to anything. I have just been sitting here like yelling thoughts into this thing all day and it just keeps transcribing them being like, you need to remember that your meeting is in an hour. I'm like, is this useful? What did I get from this? This is like, what were those journals of the pens and the notebooks had the dots? Yeah. And I wanted to be a live, a live scribe person so bad, so bad and now it's a little chat gpt ai bubble device i look forward to your review i encourage everyone to wait for the inevitable in the review the good news is this is a thing ai can actually do which like summarize a but like voice to text to summarization ai is good at all of those steps unlike so many other things like i watched a very funny video of somebody reviewing the the brilliant frame ar ai glasses and i got such flashbacks to doing the review of the humane ai pin where you're just sitting there asking it really basic questions he was sitting there holding up like a uh i forget what it was a drink of some kind i think and it kept being like that's a bag of potato chips he's like no it's not and it's just like oh yeah this is where ai is but summarizing texts on point all right i look again i look forward to your review and if you don't have the chart of wearable bullshit in the review here's what i'm saying the maker of the books Palma has a new cheaper e-reader.

1:16:17Don't get it. You don't get it. No, wait, you're saying not to get it. Okay. So it's$150. It's the Books Six Go and it's their new small, low budget, cheap e-reader that also runs Android. So you think, oh, these are all good things. Oh, it's cheaper than the Books Palma, but I get a wider screen. That sounds great. Then you look at how much RAM it has. And then you look at how much RAM the Books Palma has. Oh my God. It's only two gigs of ram only two gigs of ram don't don't i like i've had a couple of books products where they where they skimp on the ram and you feel it it's real real rough yeah that's the sort of thing that like on a kindle you don't really have to worry about ram because it's kind of only doing one thing yeah but like you're gonna accidentally have three apps open at the same time on this thing and it is just going to set itself on fire yep so don't like resist the urge i know books put more RAM in like it's not that you're not Apple it's cheap.

1:17:10At this point we are just directly controlling books this business. I'm trying. We will tell you what to do. All right. Speaking of RAM. Makes no sense. Sure. The Dyson Airwrap ID is a new smarter hair curler. So I put this on here because one is Alex has mentioned to us many many times the Dyson Supersonic that's the hair dryer and the Airwrap legitimate gadgets like insane gadgets. But it's in the classic Dyson mold of we made a fan. What can have a fan? And remember when they got all the way to the car and they're like, no fan. You know, they stopped fans. They got to do like a hair serum now.

1:17:49And I was like, where is the fan in this hair serum? Yeah, I'm calling it right now. Dyson, you're way out your lane. Yeah. Fans only. Yep. I really wanted the car to have a fan. Anyway, tell me about the air wrap. Okay, so this is the new air wrap. They've released a couple of different editions at this point. This one's got a couple of different extensions. One that like just is going to suck your hair slightly differently. I probably should explain what an air wrap does after saying that. It sucks your hair. I don't understand. Yeah, the air wrap basically sucks your hair. You go in one of two directions.

1:18:22It sucks your hair in one of two directions. And then you like you can put hot air on it or cold air on it. Yeah. And it's magic. And if you have ever tried to curl your hair or have thought about it, it's horrible. and this makes it easier. It's for those of us who don't want to worry about having hot metal near our faces. Okay, so I'm going to ask you this question about this one. Yeah. The addition to this one is that it has Bluetooth. It's got an app. What? What? I think the app could probably be, like you could just not get this and turn on, use YouTube or TikTok. It would give you the same thing.

1:19:00But yeah, it's supposed to kind of guide you through doing the hair and making sure you're holding it for long enough because a lot of people would just do it once and be like, it looks good. Is this like the smart oven theory where you have a QR code of a hairstyle and then it just does the settings for you? Yeah, it kind of walks you through it. I haven't gotten to play with this app, obviously, but that's kind of the idea. It's just supposed to help you make things a little easier through some Bluetooth in. Yeah. More gadget. But honestly, the extensions for it are the cool part. They're doing one for curly hair and one for straighter hair.

1:19:33So curly hair people get like more diffusers and stuff, which is very exciting. And it's just as stupidly expensive as the Airwrap was already. And it's worth it. So whatever. Somebody in your life is going to ask for one and get it. I bought one for Becky because Alex has been so high on these things for so long. And in the spirit of no one knows how to use it, I bought without the Bluetooth. The Bluetooth one wasn't on it yet. Also, if I bought Becky a Bluetooth device, she'd be like, no. No, thank you. I'm never using this functionality. But for like a week, both Becky and Max looked like full Texas cheerleaders.

1:20:08It was great. Just big hair every day. That's how you know somebody gets one. Yeah. And then the weird thing is our air purifiers light up every time we use it. And someone told me it's because of the hot air, like the hair products you use. It lights up the air purifiers. Yeah. That would make sense. Your hairspray. Yeah. Don't breathe that stuff. I mean, it smells great, but don't huff it. Here's what I'm saying. Dyson, find more things to put fans in. That's your lane. And I fully support it. Get to a car. Get to a hovercraft car. This is why your first car failed. It wasn't floating on a bed of perfectly produced air.

1:20:47Your next car. They got this. I believe in them. Everybody has such great hair. Do you think they were like, electric motors are kind of like fans, right? They're fans of the blades. And they're like, we'll do electric motors at scale. James Dyson. Sir James Dyson. Come on the show. I have only one question for you. It's not worth a full decoder. Did you think electric cars were fans without blades? Yes or no, sir? Just a yes or no. We're going to get James Dyson on the show and we're going to play. Can you put a fan in that? We're going to do that for one full hour of the first cast and it's going to be incredible.

1:21:18And I honestly believe he would say yes to doing that. This is my new goal. Can you put a fan in that with James Dyson? Gauntlet Throne. Yeah, let's go. Snapchat finally launched an iPad app. Good. Right. Huh? The little like the 13 year olds. They're like, they can use their iPads now. That's great. I feel like this belongs in our Is This Anything Hall of Fame. Snapchat for iPad. Right. It's like, it's a bunch of weird AI gadgets and it's like, snapchat. Like, is this anything? What people want is Instagram. Yeah. And they're never going to get it. and snap is like it clearly wants you to use it to like watch snap originals and stories and stuff uh i don't think this is going to be like a super kick-ass messaging system snapchat for the ipad not so sure all right speaking of instagram another classic all-time headline on theverge.com instagram adds what photos have always needed words

1:22:28it's good yeah it's a lot of photos and think what if it just had a letter on it basically you can now put text in the in photos in the instagram editor which is fine because you could already do that i was gonna say everyone has figured out how to do this anyway um but the fact that instagram is slowly becoming canva because instagram is slowly becoming craigslist very real oh that's okay so i the reason i put this in here is i was gonna ask are we headed towards a world in which threads and Instagram are just the same thing. Instagram is going to get texty and threads is going to get photosy and they're just going to be the same.

1:23:03But what you're saying is threads is going to become Instagram because Instagram is becoming Craigslist. No, threads isn't going to become Instagram. Yeah, I think they know that the point of threads is extremely leading questions about nothing. And they're just going to keep leaning right into it. I come up with lists of questions to ask threads like every day. that's like, I was walking down the street and I saw a guy wearing headphones. Has anyone seen one of these before? It's like, look at all day long. I could be the most popular person on threads tomorrow. You can just do it all day long.

1:23:36You just look at things. Has anyone ever seen this before? I saw one today. Today. Person posted, they were on an airplane and sometimes they're on an airplane and you're boarding and there's condensation coming off the plane. And I don't know who, they were just like, I've never seen this on a plane before. and I fly all the time. My plane is wet. What's that about? And all of the, just like millions of replies of people being like, you've never been on a plane before. Oh, that's great. Yeah, a lot of people were asking, she was asking if she was gonna die. And people were like, no. But I'm just telling you, the fact that like millions of people will fall for the worst engagement bait on threads means we've learned nothing.

1:24:10You know how like we just did the like, you're here because you think people are smarter than Photoshop, you know? And everyone's like, we are, you know this? I'm like, I'm gonna show you this picture of condensation on a plane and millions of people bringing one of our biggest tech companies algorithms to its knees over the dumbest engagement bait in the world. It is fun just as like an intellectual exercise to look around and just think like, what engagement bait-y question could I ask? You can just post a picture of anything. Like, what is this? Yeah, like my water has bubbles in it. How did that happen?

1:24:41This is what we're doing from now on. I'm just getting ready. It's coming. Anyway, my point is, I think they know they want that thing. They want a bunch of calm tweets during NBA games, right? Like that's not actually like a visual communication moment, but it's a place for people to engage and they just want the engagement. They can put the ads there. Whether or not that's photos or not, I think they're happy with what they've got. I'm just saying Instagram is becoming a marketing platform. It already was a marketing platform. And increasingly what they're marketing is small business services.

1:25:09So being able to just put that picture on your yoga studio with the text, it's like yoga class. Like they're just going to do it. and that I think that that's why I was like it's Canva because that's what Canva does for people. Great. Cool. Soon it will just be AI like generate me a photo of a yoga studio. It'll be fine. All right. Last one. We've gone this whole time without talking about it. We're just going to talk about for one second in the slide around because I'm confident next week we'll have a full preview. Apple's iPhone 16 launch event is September 9th. It sure is. Glow time. Right.

1:25:41That's the tagline. That's got to be for the Siri, right? the the siri effect yeah which i'm excited about okay i have i i see this going one of two ways and i'm curious which you guys think it is one this is just another ai show there's going to be some new hardware they're going to but all they're going to talk about is how like the new whatever chip inside of the iPhone 16 gives you more AI stuff. Or this is going to be like a massive new hardware rev. We're going to get the camera buttons. We're going to get new designs, new colors, all kinds of stuff. Like I could see this being either incredibly boring or incredibly huge, cool, exciting new iPhone year.

1:26:28And I kind of feel like it's nothing between. And it all seems to me it depends on how exciting Apple really thinks Apple intelligence is. I think it'll be in between because they threaded that needle at WWDC where they took all the really cool stuff that was going to happen and they're like, this is happening. AI. So we're going to be like, button, cool new phones, AI for the rest of the show. That is true. WWDC was actually very good and totally overshadowed by the weirdness of Apple intelligence. Yeah, I think they've got to talk about it. It's the thing that's coming next year, and this phone will be the bleeding edge of it.

1:27:03I think the real question is whether they bring those features to the base model phone, for lack of a better word. Does the iPhone 16 get Apple Intelligence or just the 16 Pro? Because only the 15 Pro is getting it. If the 16 is getting it, the regular 16, that's the big upgrade cycle, and they're going to reintroduce all of the features. Because they know that general consumers do not pay attention to WWDC. Right. That's that's the tech audience. That's developers. Apple releases new iPhone. It's going to have the features coming later this year. You'll be able to tell Siri to do whatever you can tell Siri to do.

1:27:39That's your good morning, America. Yeah. We've seen some rumors, I think, that it was going to come for the 16, right? I assume so. But I'm just saying that's my guess that like this is that's how they balance that out. I'm excited for a bunch of other stuff. I think we're also expecting new watches, new watches, new headphones, new AirPods. M4 Mac mini maybe, right? Is it weird that that is the thing I want by a mile? We're not going to get any computers. I can keep everything else the same for another year, but an M4 Mac mini to replace the M1 Mac mini that is sitting here, I want it so bad.

1:28:13If that is here in two weeks, I don't know. I don't want to pay you guys money. All right, we got to stop. This was the lightning round. We're going to have a full preview next week. All right, go do some reporting, think some real thoughts. Preview, that's next week's episode. That's why we ended the lightning round. the unsponsored lightning round tim cook you could have you could have you could have tried could have been you could have been you could have been that's actually that's the big announcement on september is finally iverge is here they're gonna put it up iverge is real that's a deep cut that's the very cast i want to shout out one uh big story uh we did a deep dive into open sea this week it is a great story with some incredible quotes in it um and also one of those one of those moments that like fills an editor-in-chief hearts with joy.

1:28:58Part of our story is we didn't know if OpenSea had gotten an SEC investigation notice and they tried to front run our story by announcing the notice the day before it published. Sure did. It was pretty good. Always a win. Go read that story. It's really good. We should also say, by the way, we're off Sunday and Tuesday. The third episode of our productivity series is actually going to run September 8th. So we'll be back Friday to do an iPad preview. Or iPad. We'll be back Friday to do an Apple preview and then Sunday with that and then all kinds of Apple stuff the week after. It's going to be wild.

1:29:25All right, that's it. That's the Vergecast. Rock and roll.

1:29:31And that's it for the Vergecast this week. Hey, we'd love to hear from you. Give us a call at 866-VERGE-11. The Vergecast is a production of The Verge and Vox Media Podcast Network. Our show is produced by Andrew Marino and Liam James. That's it. We'll see you next week.

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