The TVs, monitors, and laptops at CES 2024

30:44We have to shrink the butt. And so this year they like they took it completely off. They've still got it for their for their higher end ones. But for like the 4070 and below, they're like, we don't actually for the NVIDIA 4070 and below. They're like, we don't actually need to have all of that exhaust. We don't need all that heat and stuff. We're fine. You can do enough for gaming. And that's true. Like most games nowadays aren't as demanding, like the really popular ones, you know, the Fortnite, the Baldur's Gate, just not as demanding. It feels like after all these years of trying to make like the one laptop that could be all things to all people, ultra powerful and ultra portable and everything, they're finally finding like a pretty good middle ground that isn't for anybody at either side, but actually hits like the middle 80 percent.

31:25Yeah. In a way better way. Yeah. And like I consider myself a gamer. I play a lot of video games. I don't want the huge, giant laptop. Right. I don't want to carry it. It's super heavy. I don't want to try to power it. some of the times you can't even bring the chargers on the plane like i want i want something that i can play most of my games at reasonable enough that's why i like the steam deck that's why it's a really fun device that's why we're seeing a lot more of these like little handheld pcs where you can play that like the msi claw was the new one this time which i really really like not as much as sean sean loves the msi claw yeah but also i i don't like it because the controls on it have you seen the controls i haven't seen it okay so steam like the steam deck has the little the little touch pads and you can control it and it works like a mouse everybody else who's doing this right now has just joysticks and and a d-pad and it's just not as good i'm like part of why i like the steam deck is i have a bajillion inputs and now it's like and they're all super customizable so you can do any kind of weird thing you want with your steam deck yeah and said they're now like okay what we're going to do is pack in like a little intel processor we're going to make this thing really really fast and not give you super great controls but you are getting much better displays like the msi one the msi claw has like a variable refresh rate it's got a decently sized battery and it's got the hall effect uh joystick so you don't get the drift and stuff wait so there's something like intel processor news you said that the claws it's got a newer intel processor in it right so it's got its new 14th gen mobile processors here that's sort of yeah making all these gaming laptops they announced it like i think a week ago two weeks ago they announced it right before CES.

33:02And it's the new Meteor Lake. And they're just really, really good processors. I feel like for the last couple of years, you would always go to an event and everybody would be like, we're going to make really thin laptops next year, like fan-free, really cool laptops, just like Apple. And it's going to be awesome. And it never happened. And now it's like, oh no, they can actually do it. Like Meteor Lake gives you these really, really thin laptops. It's giving you these really, really cool handheld gaming devices where you can actually have a lot power in a fairly small thing and and still have the good thermals because that's also the big limitation like you can't do really fast gaming if the processor overheats which it will if your device is on fire it doesn't play games your hands are melting holding on to it that's bad and and they've they've it seems like with with meteor like they finally found that balance and like i'm we haven't gotten to check out a lot of these things i was gonna say i feel like I've heard that specific story so many times.

33:57Yeah. And Qualcomm is out here being like, we did it, guys. But I think our batteries last 37 hours. I think the difference is typically the laptop makers don't like buy into that hype. Like the Intel will come out and tell you this is a year. And the laptop makers generally will be like, this is not the year. We may release like one is like a pity. Right. They'll often run like a whole generation behind just for that reason, because they're like, we don't trust this new thing. We're going to wait this out a minute. Yeah, because they're the ones that are going to get yelled at. Everybody is ready now.

34:25But this year, everybody jumped on it. Everybody has stuff. They're really, really embracing it. So it feels like we're finally, like, I think it was 2017, 2018, where I was seeing these super thin laptops. And they'd be like, next year, this is going to come out. We're going to show you this for real. And I'm like, cool. And it never happened. And then this year, like, it really feels like it's happening. And it's not just with the gaming ones, too. It's also, like, Lenovo's got a new ThinkBook 13X, I believe it's called. And it is just, like, it's super, super thin. It only weighs like 2.2 pounds.

34:56It's got a magnesium body. So it's like stainless magnesium. So it doesn't get fingerprints at all. Everything else in the Lenovo booth was covered in fingerprints. And that one worked. I was like, hey, it does work. And it was just like, it feels like a toy, but it was a full laptop. And I was like, I just covered this. I just want to own this laptop now because it is so thin and so light. It was like the old MacBook. Yeah. And I was like, oh, it's that. I really hope that's true. because it's like to me running around looking at a bunch of these laptops there's been the sort of normal ces glut of just like weird ideas about laptops where there's some that they're like what if we had foldable screens and you saw a lenovo one that runs windows and android and sometimes they're just like what if everything about the laptop we just moved six inches to the left and then that was a laptop but there's also just a bunch of them this year that they're just like, oh no, we just made a better laptop that is good.

35:51And it feels like, especially what, the last three years, Apple has just like run away with the best laptop to use every day as a regular person. This is what I'm saying about the gaming PCs. If you want someone, if you want to knock someone off the default of buying a MacBook Air, you need to show up with video games. Right. Which is, I think, part of why Apple is now pushing the Mac as a gaming platform harder than ever because they're trying to undo that a little bit but that only works for the windows manufacturers to the extent that you have also made a pretty good laptop yeah because like i'll figure out another way to play games and like microsoft is doing game pass which is going to be playable on these other devices so like that specific thing is going to fall apart if these windows manufacturers can't figure out how to make just like an everyday very good laptop that is also better for gaming and like that is it's starting to spin but let me ask about the most incredible device here at css it's the lenovo thinkbook which i believe you've seen i've seen all of the lenovos yeah sorry can i just can i just stop you real fast yeah it's called the thinkbook plus gen 5 hybrid please it's very important my apologies the gen 5 hybrid family i'll be releasing this as a gen four can get out of here as you know i've always valued the contributions of the gen five hybrid family i i meant no disrespect i have so many gen five hybrid friends uh your best friend is gen five it's like somehow i'm gonna take this joke actually canceling myself i don't know how but it's coming no you saw this thing yeah It is literally two computers attached with a hinge.

37:39Yeah. Wait, really? Yeah. So it has a Qualcomm processor in the screen and an Intel processor in the base, right? Yeah. Yeah. The base of it is just a Windows machine. And then the top of it is a tablet. And when you pick it up, you're like, oh, yeah, that's a tablet up there. Because it kind of like has that little wobble. It's not as bad as sometimes. Remember the early ones where they put the tablet up and then the horrible little keyboard. and you'd pick it up and you'd be like, I could never use this. It's a little more balanced than that, but it's still got that like heft to it because it's got a 14-inch tablet like in the top of it.

38:12And what was interesting was you really just like pull it off. You don't have to press a button. You don't have to do anything. You just like grab it and yank. Because it's its own computer. It's got its own battery. It's got two batteries. Yeah, it's got two batteries. I love this product. Do you remember the Microsoft Surface Book? Yeah. That was one of those things that like I don't think anyone bought it except for like six people but those six people my niece and nephew had surfaced that had like a rabid fan base of people who liked it for exactly that reason it's like the base had a battery and a gpu right yeah so that's made this the base of the lenovo thinkbook plus gen 5 hybrid it's a windows it's just a full-on windows computer just a whole one i actually really love this it's like It's a weird, fun idea.

38:58We asked, hey, can you communicate between the two? If you're working on something and you pull the tablet off, you can keep working? They're like, no. It's two computers. It's like a full Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde computer. Yeah, you will have to transfer all of your files in order to do it. They didn't even build an app to fake it? They're working on that. They're working on that. There was also separating the two was a little difficult because it's a sample. It's not ready for release yet. They said it's absolutely going to be better when the thing finally comes out. So I'm excited to try that out.

39:31$2 ,000. And they haven't figured out the detach. I mean, just read from Alex. She's being nice. This is very nice. The converting process was also dead simple. Just yank on the tablet until it disengages. The sample version I tried would sometimes need some coaxing to separate it. Just a little. I was like, at one point, I was like, maybe it just doesn't come off. Maybe like this isn't the laptop I'm supposed to be looking at. Maybe this isn't the Gen 5 hybrid. And then the guy came over and was like, no, no. You just got to want it. Yeah. That's great. And then it worked fine after that. This is a classic CS product.

40:05As somebody who like rode really hard for the Asus Transformer lineup for years where you could dock your phone into a tablet and then dock that tablet into a keyboard and it was just all the devices all at once. I'm so happy this thing exists. CES exists, again, to sell TVs to the unwitting masses, and also to have the Motorola, what was it, the Axiom? The Atrix. The Atrix, the greatest phone of all time. The Atrix, which they had a lap dock in that open. I wanted it so bad. And then the Transformer, and then this guy. Just if you can shove two computers into one computer, CES is the place for you.

40:40I was describing CES to somebody this morning as half just a place to show off things that Best Buy might want to buy. and then half just companies saying is this anything it's just they're just like uh v song wrote a whole thing about like a wood paneled litter box that will also weigh your cat it's like that is the most is this anything gadget i've seen in forever and i love cms for that i have a question you just walk by and it's people who are like i'm from france is this anything does it weigh your cat before and after like given the nature of a litter box really good question by all accounts you could also back into weighing something else.

41:21Right, it would know what's left. It's a really good question. I don't know what that data is for. Why would you need that? I just know her cat's apparently too large to use it. Samsung Tail will tell you. My apologies. Yeah, she's going to have to hold it up to Samsung Tail. Okay, so I want to ask about two more things. Every year, Razor usually - They do a thing. They do a thing, right? It's like a project, but it seems like they're pretty chill this year. Pretty chill. They did have a pad that you can sit on for your seat, and it will like kick you in the butt when you play video games. You would say it's a haptic cushion.

41:52Yeah. I think they called it. And that's, Sean was kind of impressed by it. He was like, this is fun. But that technology has been around for a while. Like a lot of people have done that before. And as with a lot of these Razer CES things, they never come to fruition. They're very good at getting attention. Yeah, they're very, I mean, I love it. Like the year they brought in the Razer laptop and it had three screens. And I was like, next year, this is going to exist. It never. No. speaking of things you'd love to take into chemistry class yeah hell yeah and then there's a samsung flip phone called the flip ball okay what is this once again nila i am in the position of having to correct you on very important naming things there are two new samsung display folding screens uh i am on the record as i believe flip phones are the future and folding phones are mostly stupid samsung has two new flip phone concepts both of which basically go not quite 360 degrees because it runs into each other but it like folds all the way open uh one is called the flex in and out all one word yeah and the other is called we should we should talk about this the other one is either called the flex lipple okay or the flex lipple i just want to point out that flipple is a better name it is a better uh it is i believe a portmanteau of the words light and simple oh no so lipo has to be it because lipo's hysterical it does have to be lipo yeah you're right it's not better lipo sounds like a medical condition doctor like that's what you take for your heart lipo's like the thing you get diagnosed with yeah i think that's right but these things are like it also rhymes with something I think we all know what's getting diagnosed when you have lipple, okay?

43:38We all know a part of the body is getting diagnosed. We got David. We broke David. We broke David. It's day one of the CS show. We broke David Pierce. It's gone. I just... But so you like the phones? Yeah, you like them. The L-I-P-L-E. Yeah, just again, it's like on the is this anything scale. Everybody comes every year to CBS and is just like, look at this crazy thing we made a screen do. LG has a big booth of the bending OLEDs. The competition for like wildest array of screens this year is kind of a bummer, actually. Yeah, they really toned it down. LG and Samsung have really toned it down. Yeah, normally they're just like, we have a wave of 600 televisions that you can walk through.

44:23And this year, LG's thing was just like, I don't know, 20 of the transparent TVs that just move back and forth. Not a single tunnel. Not that cool. Yeah. But anyway, so I think Samsung is doing stuff with phones that I continue to think is really interesting. And part of the appeal of something like this is that because it can fold all the way around, you don't need an outside screen and an inside screen, which could in theory make this thing cheaper and easier to manufacture. But then what happens to the inside when you unfold it? It becomes the outside. So it's just nothing. You can customize it.

44:57Yes. Beautiful pictures of Will.i.am and his Mercedes. I do and we'll talk about this on Thursday Alex is doing some important foreshadowing here yes will I am wrote a song about infotainment systems CS everybody we have until Thursday to figure out a fair use way to play the whole song on the first cast alright we gotta take a break we should talk about the vision pronouns it did hit this week we'll be back we'll talk about that

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46:42All right, we're back. CS, day one. It's day one. One-ish. Yesterday was day zero. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. I get this wrong every year. I've been coming here. This is like my 15th year, and I still don't quite know what day of the show it is. I think it's day one. Lots to talk about at CS. We've got another show coming later this week with all the rest of it. There's still news happening. We should end, though, this episode by talking about the thing that didn't happen here, but that will probably dominate the year in tech coverage, no matter what, the Apple Vision Pro. Yeah, which is a screen gadget and thus fits the rubric of our episode.

47:17It's like mini screens. The most screens. Right. I heard a rumor, like I said at the top of the show, people at CS are just full of speculation over the screens in the Vision Pro, how much this thing costs to build, whether Apple is making any money on it, whether they're not making any money on it. So we already knew the price. Yep. Industry should take it out from Apple. Apple announces things like here's a price in a release window. They said early 24 and they meant it. Yeah. So they said early 2024 and they meant it. End of January, they announced February 2nd, this thing's shipping. Yep. $34.99,$3 ,500 for a 256 gigabyte model.

47:57Unclear if you need more storage in your face computer. Who knows? To be fair, that's going to be like four minutes of spatial video, as far as I can tell. Spatial video on iPhone, you can record it right now. It's 130 megabytes per minute. It's real big. Yeah. It's not small. You've got to think in TikTok minutes. I see. That's fair. Okay. Real minutes. Right. Yeah, I would say that the press release announcing Vision Pro, deeply confusing, does not have any AR or MR apps really mentioned. Apps mentioned in the press release include Fantastical and Slack. It really seems like this is an iPad for your face.

48:37And what we've heard from developers is that Apple is going way out of its way to tell them not to call it AR or VR or MR or XR or any of the other thousands of things. Like Apple is very specific that these are spatial computing apps. And I don't think that's going to work. I've been wrong about Apple's ability to make things into buzzwords before. But that one doesn't really work for me. But it really does seem like, at least at the beginning, I've been talking to developers really for the last six months about this, and the number of folks that I've talked to who are either sitting it out at the very beginning because they haven't spent enough time with it and aren't sure what to do with it and don't want to ship a crappy app just to have something there the first day, or people who are saying, basically everything we're doing is based on an iPad app anyway.

49:27That's kind of the starting point for these Vision Pro apps. We're just going to ship the iPad app and we'll figure it out from there. Yeah. But I just want to give you the list. So Apple's own press release. I'm just going off very directly. Here's how Apple is communicating about the Vision Pro. They say it's shipping. It's coming out. Revolutionary operating system and user interface. Vision OS. You can use your pinchy pinch to select things. Eye tracking. Eye tracking, when I saw it, was amazing. Then they're like, you can immerse yourself in environments, which is a straight up VR feature.

49:57Yep. Right? That's interesting. The first thing that they tell you about it is that you can put yourself somewhere else. So it's a VR headset. Fascinating to consider. It's the first thing I say. Then they say, here's all the stuff you can do. Bullet list. An infinite canvas for productivity. First bullet in the list. Fantastic All Freeform, Jigspace, Microsoft 365, and Slack. It's like, all right, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to go to Haleakala and I'm going to Slack. Right? If you just read the press release, that's where you land in Apple's own messaging. I think this is fascinating.

50:31Maybe this is the best Slack experience anyone has ever had in their entire life. It's just interesting that this is what they're landing on. Then, the ultimate entertainment experience. They're very proud of these displays, more than 4K TV, free try. Apple TV +, Disney +, Max, all their services on a screen that feels 100 feet wide. Okay, that's with HDR video. Can I tell you a fun conspiracy theory I have about this? which is that Apple deliberately doesn't mention Netflix because Apple and Netflix are beefing over all the stuff in the Apple TV Plus app. I have no evidence for this. That's how I feel.

51:03I would believe that, 100%. Users can also enjoy new interactive experiences like Encounter Dinosaurs, a VR app. So, again, I'm just reading their press release. I'm not saying these things are good or bad. I'm just saying if you just read how they're talking about it, they have described to you a VR headset. Yep. Yes. fascinating uh then gaming experiences access games in the app store including 250 250 titles on apple arcade this is where i think the ipad for your face comes in yeah because what what do we know about the quest the thing that sells a quest is games fundamentally games and uh supernatural which is a fitness game yep that's what even matter refers to the quest as games console it is by far that you might think the vision pro is going to blow the quest away but it is currently the market leader so it's the thing you compare to super fruit ninja what the golf these are ipad games right like yeah it's just i'm just and then the next one is memories brought to life uh spatial videos and photos this is fascinating the people i know who have tried this thing say it is very convincing i'm very excited to try it i've been taking some spatial videos excited to try it when we get our hands on one of these things but that's limited to people who own an iphone 15 pro right so that very like it mean the thing costs 3500 i'm assuming that's a pretty big overlap of apple customers and then it's the then it's the stuff right spatial face time where you get your avatar you can talk to but you need two vision pros to pull this off fascinating if a user is wearing vision pro while on facetime they appear as their persona while others joining from mac ipod ipad or iphone appear in a tile okay like we just have to see this stuff work but that's still like this is the cutting edge stuff and you can't really use it yeah because you yourself will not experience this right right right it's actually possible the persona to someone else right if you're on a vision pro and everybody else is on a different apple device for face tiles it's it's actually not going to be a great experience right it'll be fine but like it won't be again it's it's a face ipad that's what that will feel like what will you look and then uh that's it by the way uh then then we get breakthrough design and we can talk about that stuff.

53:10But that, in terms of experiences you can have in the headset, that's Apple's list. So iPad stuff and VR stuff. And it's, yeah, it's just funny that the first thing they describe is you will go somewhere else, just totally VR. And then they describe productivity. Then you can play games from the App Store. And then this Personas thing. You know, like I, again, I've worn one of these things. It was very compelling when I wore it. It's the best VR experience I've ever had. Yeah. But if Apple wants to break through into the spatial computing and they think the future is augmented reality, actually very unclear where the augmented reality part of this headset comes in.

53:45Yeah, I think the productivity is probably going to be the closest thing that we see there. Yeah. I mean, one thing I noticed, and again, it's possible this is just like the way that it's written in the press releases, Apple mentions that there are sort of specific spatial games like made for the Vision Pro and doesn't say that about any other app. So it's like, I think there's a decent chance that what we're going to get is like fantastical with a different border in the vision pro and i think that's going to be a lot of these apps where like translucent they're just going to get rid of the chrome in their apps so that it feels more like a floating rectangle and that's going to be the vision pro app yeah and i think this question of like what does a spatial calendar look like is going to take a while and i don't know if that's a thing people want or if that's worth working on or if it's going to be meaningfully better than an ipad app in front of your face but it doesn't seem like anyone has really cracked that yeah and i think apple is betting that some combination of facetime and just like the interface is going to be the killer app for people because like to your point the eye tracking is awesome yeah the pinchy pinch thing at least in the demos that we've gotten is fantastic like it's just fun to use the thing and i think for at least this first version of a$3 ,500 gadget, that might get Apple far enough?

55:03Yeah, my theory is that Apple does not really want people to buy this one. Like, it's scale, right? They're going to make$500 ,000, maybe? I think that's the rumor I heard in terms of like... I was like, that's a lot. I was going to say that's the thing I've been hearing a bunch this week is how many does Apple think it's going to sell? Yeah. That's the other number everybody's talking about. And the thing I heard yesterday is they're actually capped by how many displays that can be made. We'll see. They're at the bleeding edge of display tech. uh so we'll see i just think that apple does not want this to be this version of this thing to be a mass consumer because it's it's a developer's kit like yeah they just polished it up to yeah that's why we don't that's why everything in it is is kind of weird and and we don't know what the killer app is because they don't know what the killer app is so they're like here's our thing please don't call it vr or ar even though that's what it is yeah and and i i get why they're doing that they want to like they're late to that game and so they don't want to be feel like they're late to that game so spatial computing is the thing and it sounds like it is really really cool but it's also just very clear that they don't know what they're doing entirely yeah and so let me just tell you what you get for your 3 500 bucks you get uh the headset you get the solo knit band and the dual loop band sick which are the headbands put around your head a light seal and two light seal cushions the light seal seems like a thing that you gotta finagle with and get exactly right because you gotta block out all the light the vision pro cover very important uh polishing cloth don't just skip over that it's like 20 bucks it's a lot i know free polished cloth the battery the usbc charging cable and the usbc adapter i think we continually forget vision pro is two and a half hour battery life with an external battery pack that you wear on in your pocket on a cable i'm just saying i agree with you i think this is a developer kit i think they need developers to get their hands on this thing they need people to start using it they need to collect some data about what it's for why it's why it exists and i think that is just the most unlike apple i've seen any product in quite a while even the watch which i criticized heavily at the beginning and it took them three tries to figure out the watch yeah and now it's a huge success everybody knows it's a huge success but the watch was like a shotgun blast of ideas about what you could do with a computer on your wrist down to you will flirt with people in school by sending them your heartbeat but that was like a complete johnny ive thought yes not a good thought it's a fun thought not a thought that landed anywhere but he was like here's what you're gonna do you know put your fingers on your wrist then you're gonna read your heartbeat and someone else is gonna feel your heartbeat and they will know that you want to go to the movies the vision pro is like comparatively a little is this anything yeah it's got that vibe yeah and what's weird is there's nothing at ces trying to compete with it like there's a couple of things so he announced a fake headset that doesn't exist in real but that that they're just imagining as like a content creation device it's it's a camera more than it is anything but then yeah we saw xreal which is making the sort of like ar display glasses it's doing more like degrees of freedom and they can see depth and all this stuff like they're pushing towards this thing but everybody else is still on this like we're gonna take something that looks passively like glasses and then try to make it more and more powerful over time no one at least as far as i've seen is trying to do the whole swing so far i mean meta is very clear like meta is right oh sure but meta's not really here doing stuff either i think the thing is apple we're looking at it as like oh is apple why is nobody competing with apple here and that's because apple is late to the party and apple has to actually compete with everyone else already launched their failed vr headsets two years ago.

58:37And three and four and five years ago. Yeah. But no, and I also think what I've heard from a bunch of people this week that the fact that the Ray-Ban Meta smart glasses, the ones that actually look like real glasses, have been such a hit with people is changing a lot of folks' mind about actually the way to approach this. And I've gotten a lot of confidence from people over the last couple of months, but even including at this show, who think the Vision Pro is wrong in a way that people don't usually bet against Apple products and are convinced that if we can take something that is closer to looking like a normal thing you'd wear out at a place like CES and not a pair of ski goggles on your face, we can get that to powerful faster than Apple can get the Vision Pro to like socially cool.

59:21Yeah. And I think Apple usually wins that race, but this is kind of the hardest it has ever had to try to do that. And I just think it's going to be so fascinating. but i am sort of bummed that no one here like this is the year samsung should have been like there's a rumor that it's it doesn't have local dimming uh but it'll show you artwork anywhere you want uh there's a rumor saying google and samsung are gonna do something again yeah we'll see because that went great the last time like i said everybody had one of those we've run this we've run this experiment before maybe we'll see but that is i will say we're cs is great I love the gadgets.

59:59I love talking about TVs and laptops that are actually two laptops bolted together. Put them together. Exhibit would be so happy. But I suspect we're going to spend the year talking about the Vision Pro. I think that's right. Because it really, you know, Apple's betting on it. It's their big new category. A lot of ideas contain that thing. And I agree. I think there's something to the fact that the Meta glasses are doing well and people like them in a way that I usually don't see this. Sean Halster is here. He's taking a lot of videos at a lot of the little events. He's been wearing a phone sort of like on a chest mount so he could like show people with his hands.

1:00:32And our commenters on TikTok and on the social platforms are assuming that he's taking with the Meta Glasses. Oh, interesting. Which is super fascinating. Like they've already broken into consciousness such that people think that that's the camera he's using. And like Vera and our director is like, no, that's an iPhone on his chest. All right. I think that's it for day one. Is it day one, Liam? Day one. Day one of CS. It's always day one. there's lots more on the show we got to do an entire show about not screens yeah uh and alex has to talk about a 3.0 some of the non-screens we haven't talked about a car yet right yeah and they're all it's all cars here at cs uh which have are not screens for david's rubric they're not screen gadgets but they do have screens shut up don't worry about it it's gonna be fine things that roll and things that don't that's the news but we'll be back a little later this week with that episode.

1:01:23In the meantime, if there's stuff you want us to go check out at CS, you have questions about some of the stuff you're seeing, we're here. Like I said, from a tech reporter standpoint, this is fish in a barrel. We can go find out almost anything you want, except what the Vision Pro is for. That'll be for later. All right, that's it. That's VergeCast. And that's it for the VergeCast this week. Hey, we'd love to hear from you. Give us a call at 866-VERGE-11. The VergeCast is a production of The Verge and Vox Media Podcast Network. Our show is produced by Andrew Marino and Liam James. That's it. We'll see you next week.