Your favorite musician's favorite TikTok show

23:12And in this case, it's a heck of a lot simpler than showing up and eating hot wings and talking about your feelings. All you have to do is show up, put on headphones, and listen to some music. But there is one other thing about Trackstar that's really clever and I think kind of unique in this space. It's also a game for the viewer. There's like a couple different aspects of it. There's playing people snippets of songs, like when you're driving around in the car on the radio is a game that everyone's played. Like this is not a new idea. So it was more taking this concept of guess the artist and putting it in a framework that's going to make sense for social media.

23:45And I think the biggest lesson that we took away was people like watching the guest. They like watching the interaction, but they also like to be actively participating in what's happening. So a lot of the comments are, oh, you shouldn't put the album cover because I guessed it too soon. Or I've watched people watching it on their phone, looking over their shoulder, and they're saying the answers as they're watching it. That happened when I showed it to my mom for the first time. She's like, oh, that's Bruce Springsteen. And so then I realized we were on to something because there's this active participation instead of sitting back and watching it.

24:20Right, which is different from your average, like, even celebrity interview or something where you're just sort of in the audience. Like, you're trying to invent something that you're both watching and playing simultaneously. And I think because of that. Which I guess is a game show. Like, you just made a good game show, basically. Well, when you watch Jeopardy, right, you're trying to answer the questions as quick as Ken Jennings or whoever's on. And so I think what's cool is because of the celebrities and the regular people mix, everyone who's watching feels like, if I'm in New York, maybe I could end up being on this show and maybe I could win a lot of money.

24:56That's why we watch Who Wants to Be a Millionaire, all these other shows. We could win a million dollars. At this point, I think I get why the show works. It's fun to play this kind of trivia game. It's fun to watch strangers succeed, and frankly, even more fun to watch them fail. And there's also something about just all kinds of man-on-the-street content that is compelling. Like, do you ever see those videos where a bunch of dudes set up a basketball hoop or a soccer goal, and then they throw the ball to a bunch of strangers who either shoot it or kick it or get hit in the head or fall on their heels trying to do it or whatever?

25:30That all works for the same reason. I honestly, I swear to you, I think I could make that shot. I hope that I get to try someday, and I will watch every single one of those videos when they cross my timeline. So I get why the show works, but I'm still wondering why all of these big-name musicians keep showing up on Trackstar. It's not the biggest show in the world. It's doing well, but it's not, you know, earth-shattering. And frankly, a lot of these artists are vastly more famous than Jack or Trackstar. It kind of seems like he has more to gain than they do. And plus, when they do come on, it's not like they do some nakedly promotional version of the game, where they talk about themselves the whole time, or they only listen to their own songs.

26:11There's tons of that kind of thing on the internet, and it's all fine. But on Trackstar, they really are just another contestant playing the game. Sometimes literally the only promo they do is just saying their name. And obviously, even that is not a new idea at all, of course. every late night guest who plays a game with Jimmy Fallon or does like the thing where they test British snacks versus American snacks, they're all promoting something without wanting to seem like they're promoting something. You know what I mean? But like, that's the Tonight Show. Jack Coyne is great. Don't get me wrong.

26:43But I think Jimmy Fallon is probably just a smidge more famous. And yet apparently every single one of Trackstar's celebrity appearances have come from those people getting in touch with him, not the other way around. That means A-list musicians are going out of their way to be on his show. Who was the first artist to reach out? Olivia Rodrigo. It was Olivia Rodrigo or Ed Sheeran. I can't remember the order, but those two were very early on and close to each other. It was crazy. Yeah. Why did they reach out? I guess they have savvy teams. And then I think in hindsight now I've realized more so that this is part of the music business now is being on social media and making sure that these social platforms are aware of what you're doing in the music space.

27:34And so doing stuff on your own TikTok account is important and then appearing in the TikTok universe is important or your streams aren't going to do well. Yeah, I think part of the reason I ask about that specifically with Trackstar is you're not... doing the thing where it's like, let's do a podcast where we talk about your album for an hour, or you're not saying like, let's rank your 10 favorites of your own songs, like the sort of standard things people do to promote themselves and their work. People just come on and play your game, right? And the most they get to say, I watched the Keith Urban one again right before we did this.

28:13So this is like fresh on my mind. All he says is my name is Keith Urban. Like he barely promotes himself or his work or anything like at all. He's just like, what's up? I'm Keith Urban and does the show with you. And on the one hand, it's slightly surprising that that's a thing artists are willing to do in this day and age when everything is so transactional and promotional and all that stuff. But also the fact that they started coming to you just wanting to do that is like very cool and very unusual in this moment in the industry. I think that, and you can look at the comment section on that video, I think it's the best thing that he could have done to promote himself is to not talk about himself because people are saying, damn, this guy is really cool.

28:55Who knew Keith Urban was so cool and knew so much about music? And that's where they're commenting and then they're going to his profile and they're looking at his music and they're like, is this guy? Let me explore this myself. And you give the audience the tool of feeling like they get to discover it on their own instead of shoving it down their throats. And I think that's one of the great things about the show is that it's not like heavy promotional. There are two things in there that I find really interesting and frankly, very telling and very 2024. The first is the idea that you have to keep signaling to the platforms themselves, TikTok and Instagram and the rest, that you're relevant and you're around.

29:31You have to keep making your own stuff, obviously, but also showing up in stuff with a similar focus and a similar audience to be like, hey, algorithms, other people think I matter. This has obviously been a thing forever, right? Like creator collabs have been around as long as there have been creators. But there's something specific about signaling that to the platform that I find really fascinating. The other thing is the thing that keeps making me think of TRL. That maybe actually doing something that gets you out there but doesn't just feel like pure promotion of your latest project is more important than ever.

30:04This is the reason people post their personal lives on Instagram. It's the reason authenticity is everything, right? That stuff is what people care about now. It's what they gravitate to. And it feels more important to do and maybe harder to pull off on social media than just about on any other platform. And I think Trackstar and things like it give people a way to show up in front of an audience that feels candid and authentic and not nakedly promotional, even when it's not exactly any of those things. On a lot of the videos that Jack does with well-known artists, there are comments from people who love that the artist isn't promoting themselves.

30:45On the Keith Urban video, which I just rewatched, there's a ton of that. People love that Keith is just a guy who wants to show up and talk about music. And I think that works for Keith Urban. There are also, by the way, comments from people on every single one of these videos who are just like, oh my gosh, imagine running into so-and-so in New York. Or, OMG, I can't believe you just ran into them. I assume a bunch of those people are in on the bit, but I bet they aren't all in on the bit. And I think that vibe is really important, both for the show and for the guests coming onto it. Personally, I first found Trackstar because of one of those better-known artists.

31:21I think, I think it was Olivia Rodrigo.

31:2850 Cent. It was the number one song of the year, the year you were born. I did know that. Can you introduce yourself? Hey, I'm Olivia Rodrigo. Thanks for having me. But I do also have a distinct memory of seeing the Trackstar video with Malcolm Todd, who's an up-and-coming artist who was in Trackstar's all-time most popular video with more than 15 million views. 320 or you want to take the 160? 320. I just have to beat Olivia Rodrigo. There's one goal at this point. She's unbeatable.

31:58Oh, Black Sabbath? The fact that Malcolm Todd was more popular than Olivia Rodrigo or Ed Sheeran or any of the other names that I've mentioned so far. By the way, did I mention Oprah yet? Because Oprah was on the show pretty recently. Wild times. This all continues to surprise me. But it turns out that celebrities, even really big ones, aren't needle movers the way that you might think. It's interesting. I've thought about a lot. Like, what would happen if Taylor Swift came on the show? That would be a huge moment, right? Biggest artist in the world. I think we would maybe gain 5 ,000 followers from having Taylor Swift on.

32:33I think the video itself would do really well, and then maybe some people would write about it and say, Taylor Swift went on this social media show. And that would be valuable for us from a brand equity standpoint, but it would not boost the following in any meaningful way. But then down the road, Oreo might say, wow, this guy had Taylor Swift on. and we should pay him a million dollars to do something else. Let's talk about the something else there. But first, we have to take a break. We'll be right back.

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33:39All right, we're back. So TrackStar is working. It's popular. It's growing. The format is endlessly repeatable and essentially works forever. The team does want to have Taylor Swift on, just in case that wasn't clear before. And Jack also has a running list of other ideal guests. He's talked a bunch in interviews before about Bruce Springsteen, but there are lots of others too. Barack Obama. Oh, yeah. Because he does, he releases his songs all the time. And nobody ever believes him, which I love. Everybody is like, there's no way he listens to these songs. I would actually play him the songs from his own playlist.

34:13You really listen to Million Dollar Baby by Tommy Richman? Like, that's really your jam? And then I'm imagining him. Anyway. That would be a fun one to do, just to put him to the test. I think as far as musicians go, there's Paul McCartney. Or Ringo even might be more legendary than Paul McCartney. So there's those classic people who've been around for a long time who are legends and icons are great. And then I think that there's a huge opportunity with hip-hop that we haven't fully tapped into, where like an extended conversation with Nas would be really cool. And talking about stuff that he's listening to and rappers that inspired him, I think would be a little unexpected.

34:57And then, yeah, more non-musicians, more just like interesting people who care about music, I think would be fun. And athletes. That's like the real untapped one. Like I want to talk to LeBron James. Like he loves music. What would it be like if he and I were in a room together and I'm playing him songs and he's getting all fired up? I love listening to this before a game. It'd be amazing. Beyond that, though, it's pretty clear to me that the public opinion team has tapped into something bigger than just the 90-second setup with the headphones and the microphone on TikTok. So now they're trying to expand outside of that.

35:34I mean, I think it's exciting for us to experiment and add on different layers and try everything. So we recently started doing a head-to-head Trackstar versus competition. Which I like. It's very good. which is fun where you get, especially when you have two artists who have a song that they're collaborating on, or maybe it's a band with, where you can create some of that band rivalry and banter. So we're experimenting with that. And then we have another show that we do called Trackstar Presents, which is a performance show here in the studio. And we put out episodes like every week or two. And it's kind of like a tiny desk concert, but with more conversation in between the songs.

36:10And that's like a half 20 minute to a half hour episode on YouTube. So it's very different. Yeah, is that, how big a focus is that for you right now, trying to sort of build the like longer form YouTube channel? Well, we just, for a long time, we had both shows, Public Opinion and Trackstar on one YouTube channel. And we recently decided to split them just because it felt like there was two different audiences. And so putting two different videos up on the same channel didn't make sense. So we finally split them and started a new Trackstar YouTube channel. And our first video was five or so minute conversation with Amelia DeMoldenberg from Chicken Shop Date.

36:50She's great. We realized she's amazing. We realized doing she, her press people said, could she come on Trackstar? She's going to be in New York. Yes, of course. That'd be amazing. We filmed for 20 to 30 minutes, probably each episode. And what you see on TikTok is 90 or less usually. And we're like, we're leaving so much great stuff on the floor. Like, why don't we put out a five-minute episode and show people what that's like and then add some more layers to it. And so we just put out the first one and then we're putting out these Trackstar Presents sessions on the same channel. So we're really excited about it.

37:22The hard part about long form is you have to create the packaging. You're not just 100 % reliant on the algorithm to push it to people who want it. You have to get people to click in, which is a whole other game. Do you think you're in a position now where you and Trackstar are big enough that you can pull that audience anyway? Or does it truly feel like starting from nothing, trying to make it happen on YouTube? It feels like starting from nothing because the consumption pattern is so, so different. Like when you're watching short form videos in your feed, it's like you're on the toilet, you're making coffee, you're in line for something.

38:04It's just like in the background throughout your day. Whereas YouTube is like, you've got to really dial in and pay attention to it. Even a podcast can be like, you're in your car, it's in the background, you're walking to work. Whereas YouTube, you really have to get people, and I think a huge percentage of it now is happening on connected TVs. So you really got to get people to say, instead of watching Netflix, I'm going to watch Dragstar for a half hour. And so it's a big jump. And hopefully we can get some people, but I think we have to find that people are already looking for great stuff on YouTube and get them to discover us.

38:35A big part of making the existing channel work and the success of all these new initiatives hangs on the person in these videos that we haven't talked that much about yet. That's Jack. He's always really involved in the Trackstar videos. He's often wearing a backwards hat or like a cool overcoat, but he's always laughing and having fun with the guests. and he's the one who really sets the vibe for the whole thing in a way that I actually think is really important. He like points to the camera and demands of the person that they introduce themselves, regardless of whether it's a person that you've never seen before and will never see again, or if it is like one of the 50 most famous people on planet Earth.

39:14I love that. He's kind of reluctant to give himself much credit, but I really do think he's a bigger part of it than it might seem. I think my job is to be very sort of optimistic and kind and make people feel comfortable and sort of try and bring out a positive. Like, as you watch the show, you see I'm really smiley and I'm laughing and I'm giggling all the time. That's true. That is who my personality is. But I also think that that helps make the random person on the street comfortable. Like, I'm not trying to play gotcha. I'm trying to encourage you to guess these songs correctly because when you get something right, you're excited and you're happy and you're like, oh, wow, I just won five bucks.

39:54And then I can come in and say, so tell me about your life. Like how did you grow up or tell me about your mom or whatever. And so it's sometimes I refer to it as like the game show is a Trojan horse to get people to open up because they're distracted by guessing songs. And then they're much more comfortable and willing to talk about everything else, which is like eating the hot ones. eating the hotter they get, the more you're distracted by how spicy it is. So you talk about your feelings. So I think that's probably a large part of my role. And where it comes from is my whole career of making videos and doing YouTube content.

40:30I've always been told the best part of what you do is when you're engaging and talking to regular people and having that off the cuff conversation, you should lean into that. This is the sneakiest thing about Trackstar. And it's the thing that makes it different from so much music content out there. It's actually really only a little tiny bit about the music. Jack seems to have always understood this thing as a conversation show with sort of a loose music-y structure rather than a thing where the music is the point. And honestly, even the music he picks is meant to make that other dynamic work better.

41:05so before I go into it or even at the beginning of the conversation I'm asking about what do you listen to or what are some who are some artists that have resonated with you or I research the celebrity and I try and find things that they're they're they're going to have an emotional response to and that helps open people up like wait you played this song like how do you know that this is like the song that I danced my first dance at my wedding and so that's going to trigger an emotional response. So that's the intention of the songs is to try and find things that remind people of, oh, man, I used to listen to this with my dad when we were on the way to baseball practice.

41:43Well, tell me about that. So I'm hoping that that's working. It's not easy to do like always on the spot, but that's what I'm 100 % striving for all the time. I feel like that has come up a bunch where you play a song for somebody and they're like, oh, this is this song indirectly inspired some other song that I wrote or was like meaningful to me as a teenager or whatever. And I always assumed that was mostly research. But it's interesting that it's a mix of research and just sort of educational guesses about what music people like. You'd be surprised how often I stumble into something that I didn't realize there was all this meaning behind it.

42:19And that's like my favorite moments in doing the show. If you think about that setup, music as a way into other kinds of content and especially into personal conversation, you can go all sorts of ways and that in a nutshell appears to be the track star plan there have been uh lots of conversations about starting a record label um so it's not like happening tomorrow but it's definitely something that's track star records could happen a it's a good name yeah so that's good what would that why why do a record label what would that look like well there's it's twofold uh there's because of the sessions that are happening in here we have artists come in and do covers.

43:01So there's a lot of, I think a lot of covers are blowing up online and there's an opportunity there. Triple J is like releasing stuff and a few of those different online publishers have released songs in conjunction with artists. So there's an opportunity there. And then like you talked about, like discovering new artists. What if we got a pool of money together and we said we're going to invest a million dollars in 10 artists and we're going to tell the story of Trackstar Records through social media? over the course of a year. And it's almost like how Making the Band was on MTV back in the day.

43:34Can we do that through social media? Do you think you could? 100%, yeah. I watched Making the Band religiously back in the day when it was about creating the band O-Town. And I swear to you, that show would 100 % work today. A super intense competition show that's also a behind-the-scenes look at what it means to be a pop star is like social media gold. Actually, there was recently a Netflix show about a K-pop group called Cat's Eye that was essentially that, but they also had this very public side of it where people were seeing the performances throughout the audition process. It was wild. The show is awesome.

44:11I would watch it a million more times about a million more kinds of groups. There are other moves for Trackstar itself, too, as it grows and becomes more of a business. One thing I see in the comments of the videos all the time is people discovering new songs thanks to Trackstar. The show does have an official Spotify playlist with all the songs, but there's definitely more it could do there. Because being a reliable source of new music or just a reliable way to make old songs cool again makes you very powerful in the modern music world. It's like, it goes back to being a teenager and saying, like, pass me the ox.

44:48Like, I'm going to play a song that's like, you guys are going to love. I think everyone has that like little piece of their where they want to show their friends like check this song out this is a great song so yeah huge part of why I do this and how I like to choose the songs I just want to play good stuff in terms of becoming a tastemaker like if that's happening that's great I just want people to know about good music I guess and maybe there's a way to turn that into something that's a little bit more substantial or meaningful or focused specifically on that I mean we have playlists on our Spotify like a bunch of different playlists.

45:23So there's some stuff there. Have you gotten labels or anything calling you being like, hey, can you play this song during Trackstar? Yeah, all the time. People ask us to play songs, but I can't just... The thing is, a lot of times it's new songs. Can you play this brand new song? I'm like, well, how are people going to know this song that like no one, this artist just came out? It doesn't make any sense. Like, if you want to pay me to play the Beatles, I'll do that. And people are like, we're not going to pay you to play the Beatles. I'm like, damn it. So yeah, it's hard. You have to find things that are universally recognized, and those tend to be things that people aren't promoting.

46:01Remember, though, Jack is not a music guy. That's important to all of this. He's a creator. He likes telling stories. Music is just a vehicle to get there. Trackstar was just an excuse to talk to people about something they liked and cared about and knew. Everything else they're working on is the same way. And, you know, if that happens to also double as a really fun game show to watch and a way for mega-famous celebrities to be out and about and into music, all the better. It really does feel to me like a throwback to the early 2000s, when shows like TRL were all about making music feel like a hang.

46:36And they understood before social media, before the internet made everything about the individual people, that getting to know the artists and getting to know what they liked and what they cared about and what inspired them was maybe even more important to liking their music than the music. Another show that I loved from around that time was Pop-Up Video, which was adding trivia and jokes to music videos way before anyone was posting memes on Instagram. Pop-Up Video, by the way, was apparently a big inspiration for Trackstar. What was the cute beetle doing in a Tokyo jail cell? Should George Harrison get his own sit-down?

47:43but you don't know the artists, you don't know the lyrics, that just feels bad. I had a friend who used to call it Spotify music, music that's designed to not bother you when you're not paying attention and to be just interesting enough when you are to keep you hooked. That's not good music, that's Spotify music. And I think people are pushing back toward looking for good music. They're also, you know, rocking wired headphones. And they're looking for new ways to hang out with their favorite music and musicians and get to know them in new ways. It's new platforms, new hosts, new musicians, but the more things change, the more they stay the same.

48:20I think that line's from a song, actually. It's a good one. All right, that is it for The Verge Cast today. Thank you to Jack for being on the show with me today, and thank you, as always, for listening. There's lots more on everything we talked about at TheVerge.com. I'll put a bunch of links in the show notes. You should go watch Trackstar videos. They're super fun. I see a lot of people who will find one video and then just go back to the very beginning of Trackstar and watch them all the way through. Super fun. I actually highly recommend doing so. As always, if you have thoughts, questions, feelings, or other early 2000s era TV shows that you think I should watch again, you can always email us at vergecast at theverge.com or keep calling the hotline.

49:01We love hearing from you. Send us all of your thoughts and questions. We have two more of these future of music episodes to do this month. I would love to hear what you think about all of them and other things you think we should do. This is one of our favorite series. We've done it before. We'll probably do it again. I'd love to hear your ideas. This show is produced by Liam James, Will Poore, and Eric Gomez. The Verge Cast is a Verge production and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. We'll be back with your regularly scheduled programming on Tuesday and Friday, because good Lord, the news never stops.

49:30We've got Alexa stuff to talk about. We're going to do our best to avoid talking about the election. We've got a lot of Apple stuff going on, just a lot to do. Keep coming back. We'll see you then. Rock and roll.

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