Zooming in on weird cameras

24:37But in video, if you've got a leak, it'll move based on where the light is coming from. But this doesn't do this. So it looks like you just put, like, a piece of glass in front of the lens and painted, like, an orange smear on it. And then it's just stuck in front as you wave the camera around. It looks hilarious. It's like early David Lynch when he was figuring out digital cameras, but it's weird as hell. Ruins the illusion a little bit. Yeah. So, Viren, you wrote the review for us, which seemed very positive. Is this another Sigma BF situation for you where you're like, yes, it's limited, but I love what it is?

25:13I think he's a masochist. I think that's what it is. I think Viren's just a masochist. I'm just like an optimist. No, it was mostly positive, but so hard to justify, right? We already talked about the price. The price is just ridiculous. If you look at the comments on any of the videos or articles, everyone is like, this is insane. What I did enjoy about it was actually using it until you hit what was also mentioned. It feels slow. You know, when you take a photo and you crank it and it doesn't register. You found that too? Yeah. Oh, yeah. It was very slow to like write onto the card and I had a fast card in it.

25:55The processor in it is actually like really good. It shouldn't be the case that it's so slow. Those are the things that like bother me. What I did like about it is that it felt like some thought went into designing the hardware and software in tandem for the experience of using it. it didn't feel like you know hey here's a trend we're gonna make something really quickly it like you know at these press events they give you the R &D story behind it and I was like you know what yeah I can kind of buy it I don't think it's quite just a cash grab although the price is ridiculous so using it was fun I did not try the video with Light Leaves oh you gotta do if you got some time this weekend enjoy I'm good no no no this was and just for reference like it wasn't a review was like a hands-on.

26:42I had like a couple of hours with it. So it was just like a pretty brief experience with it. And yeah, I think software, hardware design was interesting, fun. It was fun to use, but it is like, I would never buy it because of the price, even if I do buy it. I am a little bit sucker for like high quality, beautiful, high megapixel, everything. Sure. I don't think I would actually take it out as much. You know, it would probably be the camera that I leave behind. I use a lot more of like, you know, The Osmo pockets and one of these cameras. And I just want to cover every basis. The base that I don't want to cover is fun one-inch sensor camera that's just extra.

27:27You mentioned the Osmo, and I have questions, actually. I noticed this, like, this was starting to ramp up when I was leaving DP Review. but like every camera company launching their like vlogger camera. And I got kind of a glimpse of this. I reported a little bit ago on the Canon PowerShot GX7 III. Oh, lucky. Have these like vlogging focused cameras panned out for the manufacturers? Or did like the Osmo just win? The Osmo killed them all. That's funny. Yeah, the Osmo killed them all. I was thinking about this though just today. like all these companies that we were going through started making vlogging cameras, right?

28:12Panasonic did, Nikon did, Sony, of course, really came out of the gate first, Canon then started to. And it was like, no camera viewer that I really knew have super enjoyed these cameras, right? We're all complaining about the same things. It's like, oh, they're expensive and like, they're kind of silly and I don't know who wants these. And I'm convinced because there's so many people that do so many other interests that we're just not interested in that are looking for a very basic kit to get started. I guess if I was somebody starting out and I didn't know what I was doing, I just wanted to like get something at Best Buy, put it in front of me and make it work.

28:43Well, then that might do it. Right. So I think that's why they were so popular. But I think now as more people catch on to the Osmo, the beauty of a gimbal, the fact that, again, it's very simple. The fact that you can add microphones to it like seamlessly, that makes it even more convenient. And I think as more and more people figure out what the pocket cameras do for them, we're going to see even less and less vlog cameras. Yeah. Have those been hard to get, like the drones? It's not hard to get, except the price has gone up by 40%. I think it's about$900 to get the whole thing, and it started with$500.

29:19I mean, even at$900, it's still probably worth it. But yeah, when they were$500, what a steal. Yeah, what a great little camera. And yeah, image quality, as we've talked about, is plateaued. Nobody cares anymore. We want it to work and we want it to be easy. And we want to know that when we get home, everything's okay and it's all set for us. Like, yeah, it's great. Yeah. Well, on the subject of making YouTube videos, I have questions for the two of you, Chris and Jordan. You guys have been at this for so long. And I'm curious on your perspective on how it's changed. You know, like there's just a lot in that question.

29:59There's like the camera market has changed. The technology has changed. Like making the videos has changed. But I don't know. How do you look at the change over the past like decade that you've been doing this? The style that younger creators make now is very different. We still stick to our same style. We shoot a lot on location. And as you said, Jordan, with like nicer cameras, you know, Jordan's looking for more cinematic results and control over depth of field. And so, whereas now I think a lot of young creators are looking more at presets and more extreme color grades and faster cuts and stuff.

30:34But what do you think, Jordan? And I think the big difference is when we started, it just had to be passable and you could build a massive audience. Like basically our early stuff is unwatchably bad. No, it's not. But fairly quickly we got to a level where, yeah, it was better than, you know, something that someone with no background in video production could put together. where now, you know, the bar is so much higher if you're starting. But I think it almost puts us in an interesting place because it's not so much about like, how is your production value? But it's like, what are you producing?

31:06And if that's compelling, like, I think if you're like for us specifically, hey, if you want to review camera gear, you know, you better back it up with some interesting photos or interesting shoots or an interesting experience or something like that. Like pure brute technical know-how is not going to get you as far as it used to back in the day. So, you know, we learned very quickly to just start injecting more of our personalities into the video. And that's, I think, why we're still doing this all that time later. The tools have definitely, like, editing is faster now. On location, they've given us a lot of stuff.

31:37You know, more dynamic range in a camera means I can shoot in more locations without looking for a place with easier light to work with. So all of that is just making us more productive. And that's what I love to see is just like, hey, we can actually do more now. Yeah. Yeah. Does that resonate, Vy? Yeah, but I actually wanted to ask a question. I feel like in the last couple of years, especially, you know, with the rise of short-form video content, especially when it comes to camera, every release of a camera, everyone has a video about it. Everyone has something ready to go on and more go. It's more saturated than ever, honestly.

32:13And, you know, we've seen reports of just like influencer marketing budgets are like, you know, everything. everything right. Is there anything else that you kind of do or think differently to stand out, to remain yourself? We've always tried to do a lot of the videos that we, reviews that we do with the cameras that we have, right? And we try to do them on location. So we're not really in the office talking, we're out shooting on location because we want to give the viewers the idea, like, look, this is how we're using the camera. This is how you might use the camera. Weather ceiling might be a factor, you know, where you're actually going to be out there and, you know, things like that, autofocus, all these kinds of things.

32:49And you see though, I think a lot of creators are making really good stuff, but they're showing a lot more of the end result of that video camera, for example, or photographic camera, you know, after editing, after compiling it together. And they're often shooting themselves, speaking about it with different camera gear, because it's more convenient and it's quicker and it's easier if you're just one person. Whereas we have the benefit of the two of us. So, but yeah, it's just a different dynamic, hence Jordan's shirt. And And we've always tried to do that, like be on location using the cameras as real world as we can, not only for the photography, but also for the video.

33:24That one right there. Yeah. Film on location, you cowards. I love it. Yeah, that's where that comes from. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you, all three of you for joining me. And I'm sure we're all going to be together IRL, you know, soon enough. Yes, in the fall. One way or another. So thank you. That season's coming up. Yeah. Thanks, guys. We've got to take another break. And after that, we're doing a mega hotline. Stay tuned.

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36:04Welcome back. I am joined by my colleague, Dominic Preston. Hey, Dom. Hey, Alison. Good to see you again. Good to see you. He's our news editor based in the UK and also a big phone nerd. Yeah, guilty as charged. Yes, I know this. So which figures into our exercise today. I put a call out many months ago at this point for our listeners to write in or call in and let us know the phone buying conundrum they're having. If they're considering a new phone and they're not sure which one to get, if they just need some philosophical advice, if they own an iPhone mini, which you guys showed up. Anyway, we'll just jump right into it.

36:52Are you feeling ready? Ready as I'll ever be. I've done a little work on my European phone market, so I can answer some of that side of things, hopefully. Yes, please, because the Xiaomi's of the world are a mystery to me. Great. Okay. So our first question came from Brendan and he called in so we can go ahead and listen to it. Hi, this is Brendan from Rochester, New York. I have a Pixel 6 that is starting to get a little slow and nearing its end of guaranteed security updates next year. And so I was looking to buy a new phone. I want something that's going to last for a while and have OS updates and security updates.

37:38But I also want something that's kind of on the smaller side. The Pixel 6 is kind of heavy and big. So I was tempted by, you know, phones like the Asus Zenfone 9. I want something that's kind of around that size, which I know it's really hard to find. So if you had any suggestions, that would be great. Thanks. I am so sorry, Brendan, but we have nothing but bad news for you. So my heart broke a little bit, especially that mention of the Zenfone 9. I know. I missed that one. Yeah, I know. So the quick answer, I think, is you're probably going to want a Samsung Galaxy S25. That is the last small-ish phone that is widely available in the U.S.

38:24The Asus Zenfone kind of went away. They only make a big version now, and I don't think they even sell it in the U.S. Are there options in the UK that we just don't get here? Weirdly, no. This is one area where still even the rest of Europe, and even if you look at China, there's not really a big difference other than going into really tiny oddball things like the Unihertz Jelly Star, which is this minuscule phone with a minuscule screen. Kind of that Zenfone 9-esque form factor has pretty much gone. The S25 is probably the best bet. the the kind of the big one you might get in the rest of the world is the xiaomi 15 but that's basically the same size as like a pixel 9 pixel 10 it's still a little bit bigger than an s25 so if the main priority is size the s25 is going to be the best yeah so we've failed brendan i'm sorry but yeah s25 is probably going to be it and our our hearts are with you yeah we have this perverse thing now where like even if you look at the Chinese brands and what they're putting out even within China not the stuff that comes to Europe we're seeing phones that are branded like mini or compact and they're still 6.4 inch displays and you know they're bigger than an S25 way bigger than an iPhone mini ever was it's it's kind of strange yeah the phone beginning has happened and it's it's not going to let up I think so the next question we have and we got this kind of a lot is from Nate.

40:00Hey there, this is Nate. I've been an Apple, like iPhone user and Mac user forever. I'm definitely in the walled garden of Apple. Like I have the AirPod Pro, Apple Watch, and I'm just getting a little bored. And I'm curious what the other side is like. And I don't really know, you know, with the Android phones and even the watches and the headphones, is there that much of a difference? It'd be nice if they were similar. But yeah, that's my question. Thanks. So this was kind of a theme, people being bored with their phones. And I don't know if I'm just being a bummer, but I kind of think that's because phones are boring now.

40:46What's your read on this, dom i think if boredom is the the motivator there are basically only two ways you can go which is buy a foldable which are maybe a little bit more interesting if you're if you're not already on one or buy something from nothing which is still ultimately just a phone but at least it's going to look kind of fun before you put your case on it yeah something from nothing uh took me a second but yes the phone brand nothing i'm kind of thinking of your traditional like pixels and galaxies. And there are things here and there that are a little different. There's definitely more AI features throughout the OS.

41:28If that's something that interests you, I don't think a lot of people are motivated by AI at this point. But yeah, I think a foldable is that's really the best you can do as far as like it's going to feel different and you're going to use it differently. That changes your experience with the phone, whichever foldable form factor you go for, whether you're talking like a flip phone, which kind of can reduce your screen time, you can leave the phone closed and engage with it a bit less, or obviously the book style gets you more of that, you know, tablet that fits in your pocket kind of thing. Either way, they're a different way of having a phone.

42:05I mean, the other thing I'd say to that question with the kind of the broader what is there on the Android side of that question from Nate, one big difference This is definitely a rest of the world thing, I'm afraid, not a US thing. But there is this whole kind of space where cameras in the flagship Android devices from the big Chinese OEMs like Xiaomi and Honor and Oppo and Vivo. Those cameras are really, really wild. And they are nothing like you're going to find on any iPhone right now. But in terms of the design, these are like very big, almost DSLR-esque camera rings that dominate devices and make them very top heavy.

42:41but you know amazing telephoto lenses really big sensors really great depth of field from shots and kind of a lot more processing options as well sometimes that's one thing i think that the android side has that just there isn't an option on the iphone the frustrating bit of that is then there's no option for that in the us because i think what samsung and google are doing is much more in line with what apple are doing which is kind of yeah more modest camera bumps and very impressive cameras but not really completely pushing the butt out there yeah Yeah, I feel like there's other companies in the world that have been like, what if hardware and Samsung and Pixel phones are kind of like, we've locked in on the hardware and we're just optimizing the shit out of everything with software.

43:26So that's kind of where we are. I will say some of those, is it a phone? Is it a camera? Phones are so much fun to use. And I'm extremely jealous that you get to do that more than I do. Oh, they're great fun. But I mean, I think there's definitely like, there's a big aesthetic trade-off as well, which I think is part of the reason the big US players haven't opted for it. Because you're already basically saying, I'm willing for my phone to look quite a lot uglier in the name of having a way better camera experience. And I don't know that that's the mainstream US or European phone buyer, right? Most people are not willing to make that swap.

44:02They want a really good camera, but they still want their phone to look like a normal, attractive phone. Yeah, you gotta choose. You got to make your choices. And the U.S. manufacturers have made that choice for us. So our next question kind of relates because Brian wants to know about foldables. So we can listen to that one. Hi, Allison. My name is Brian. My thing that I run into a lot with phones, at least for the last year or so, and what will be the next year, is battery life. and I am really contemplating some of the folding phones that are out there on the market right now. Obviously, what will be the Pixel Pro 10 Fold is really appealing, but I don't know, just based on what I've seen, if battery life on any foldable right now is that great.

44:56So, I guess, like, battery life inside of foldables, or do I just stick to my good old candy bar options? and get the biggest and baddest battery life. So that's kind of what I'm running into right now. I hope maybe others are too. Thank you so much. And hopefully, talk to you, hear from you soon. Bye. So I'm curious your thoughts on this, but I think my general take is the foldable, like the bigger book style foldables have just kind of like, the battery life was not great. And they've kind of gotten to a place where you have parity with a decent slab style phone, but you should not expect it to exceed your average slab phone for battery life.

45:40What do you think, Dom? Yeah, I broadly agree with that. I think one thing I'd say for the big foldables is so much of it's going to come down to how you expect to use it, which is what I mean by that is how much are you going to open it up? I'm a very boring foldable user when I'm reviewing them because I actually don't find that many uses for the big screen personally. so i use it 90 of the time as a regular phone closed and the battery life then is pretty comparable you're not really getting a difference now we see people listening will be well why on earth would i buy one of these if i'm not going to open it up all the time so that's a very fair point the battery life will go down when you open it up but you should think about like do you want it to be something that you can open up for half an hour on your commute in the morning and occasionally when you're you know sitting on the couch and just want to want to read or is there something where you think all the time you're using this, you're going to open it up and use the big screen.

46:33Because the more you use the big screen, the worse the battery is going to be. So there's a bit of a trade off there. I have a similar experience where I'm just, I don't know if it's because I just use a slab style phone all the time, but I sort of have to remind myself like, oh no, this phone opens. I need to open it and like try it that way. And I'll inevitably like download Diablo Immortal or something to it to like really play and test it out. And I'm like, A, I think I would do this more because it's so much nicer on a big screen. And B, wow, does that kill the battery life like so fast. So yeah, it is so variable.

47:09And I wouldn't discount like your phone habits maybe changing once you have the option of a bigger tablet-like experience. But I don't know. I did read a lot of comments recently on something I wrote about foldables where foldable owners were saying that they rarely open their folding phone. And I was like, huh. Oh, interesting. I've always thought that was a me problem. So it's interesting that people who actually own them kind of feel the same way sometimes. Yeah. I guess there's two other things I'd say to Brian on that question. First, I think you are right that a flip phone is probably not for you from the description of what you want.

47:49and especially if battery life is the concern i think the flip phones still struggle there like you said allison you can kind of the book style give you parity with a decent slab on battery life the flips are definitely still behind and they're good enough right now to run for a day but you know if you're going to use it for four years i wouldn't trust it will be good enough to last a day in four years time on any of the flips really and the other thing i'll say is the little the rest of the world perspective because this is a different story outside of the u.s though it's only beginning to change.

48:19This year, we've seen a lot of big foldables coming out with silicon carbon batteries, which are meaning they're getting bigger capacities. So I reviewed the Oppo Find N5, which was at the time the thinnest around, and that had a, I think, a 5 ,600 milliamp hour battery. Vivo just put out a foldable in, I think it's just in China and India, the X Fold 5. That's got a 6 ,000 milliamp hour battery, though I haven't tried that one. That's wild. Honor have announced the Magic V5 in China, but they've also announced that it's getting a European release, at least very soon. That one is, I think, 5 ,800 milliamp hours.

48:55If all those numbers sound like nonsense to you, all three of those battery capacities are bigger than an S25 Ultra by some way. Yeah. So these are all big foldables that could beat most slab phones. Yeah. So this is happening. It's changing. like I said those aren't even all out in Europe I think the Honor will be out in Europe but the other two aren't but if you're in Europe if you're in India if you're elsewhere in Asia or somewhere look at those brands because you might actually find that there are some recent models from this year that that really are up there with not just an average slap phone for battery life but up there with the best slap phones for battery life yeah and there's there's been a real hesitation from at least Google and Samsung from what I can tell about adopting the silicon carbon batteries.

49:42So I wouldn't expect that to change anytime like super soon, but you never know. I don't know. Maybe we can have nice things too. Yeah, I think this is a change that's going to roll out faster and faster elsewhere, but I don't expect either Samsung or Google to be jumping on this just yet, but we'll see. It'd be nice if they did because it really is going to be, you know, both in foldables and in regular phones, is this going to be a big driver of bigger batteries and smaller phones. Yeah. Maybe we can have it all. Smaller phones. Maybe we can have small phones again, because we can have big batteries in our small phones.

50:15My God, please. Okay. Now I am rooting for Silicon Carbon, and I want it now. Next up, we have just a very charming question from Smiley. Hey, my name is Smiley Rojas-Núñez, aka Smiley No Really, singer-songwriter. I'm calling in because I have a Pixel 4a 5G that I refuse to upgrade from. Long story short, the Pixel 4a 5G has a headphone jack, and I like to go and perform music in little clubs and open mics, and it's so useful to have that headphone jack. also it's one of the last pixels with the unlimited photo storage I don't feel like paying for a plan first photo source so that's another reason why I haven't upgraded but now it does feel like it's getting in my way when it comes to using Instagram which unfortunately is a tool that I need to use to promote myself and my artistry so I'm thinking of upgrading I know that the one plus 13 is the best Android phone available right now but sadly it's huge so i'm like what to do what to do um i don't know that i need this year's latest model but uh yeah appreciate you listening to this message and help a brother out peace peace i'm just very charmed by smiley and i love that he's held on to the pixel 4a 5g like way to go way to milk google for the unlimited photo storage and hold on to that headphone jack but i think this is another like bad news kind of situation i'm i'm like racking my brain for of a like flagship ish phone that has a headphone jack and i'm trying to figure out if motorola sells one now yeah i feel like some of the cheaper models might still have headphone jacks yeah i don't think anything higher end does even you know in europe they have the whole edge series which is kind of mid-range bordering on flagship and some of those come out in the states under different names but none of those have headphone jacks i think i think you need to be looking at like the moto g kind of budget couple hundred bucks models and i feel like some of those still have a headphone jack kicking around but yeah that's right i don't know how much of a performance bump that will feel like even coming from a i guess the 4a is old so they will feel better than a 4a but not not like a giant jump forward yeah that's okay the moto g stylus i believe has a headphone jack and like a very nice um kind of vegan leather back panel the thing that I am a little hesitant about is that it is just loaded with bloatware, a lot of which you can opt out of and uninstall.

53:15So if you're willing to do that, it's a nice little phone. I also worry a little bit about longevity. I feel like Smiley kind of wants to hold onto a phone for a while, given that he's still rocking the 4a 5g and motorola especially for the budget you get maybe two or three years of upgrades and then you're you're done so you're shopping for a new phone again but that might be the only option with the headphone jack yeah my other hesitation on the motorola would be the camera because smiley mentioned you know being interested by the oppo which the the find xas i think is the the phone that the mini ended up being yeah call that out for being smallish with a camera, but the Moto is not going to have a great camera.

54:04If anything, that might be one bit where it really does feel like a downgrade from a 4A because I think any pixel camera almost is going to beat sort of what you find on a cheap Motorola. Motorola's cameras are good on some of the higher-end models, but not on, I doubt the G Stylus is going to be a real winner for that side. Yeah, yeah, that's a good call-out. There sort of is one phone that kind of exists that does this almost, but I don't think Smiley can buy it in the US and I don't think he should which is the Sony Xperia 1 Mark 7 which is kind of compact-ish it's got a headphone jack it's got pretty good cameras not the best but they're not bad I don't know how great they are for longevity but it's not out in the US that particular model has had some issues they've had to do a recall for a lot of units across Europe I certainly wouldn't trust Sony on the longevity in terms of their commitment to the smartphone market they actually just said in their recent quarterly earnings that the Xperia phone business is very important to them but I don't know how much I believe that they're putting out one or two phones a year and barely releasing them at all even if you could buy it I think it would be about one and a half grand is the price so it's crazy expensive for what it is so that is the phone but also don't buy that phone it exists but also yeah don't yeah I you know a couple years back I think I was still reviewing Xperia phones and yeah it was that kind of like this is very pricey and I'm only hearing like two years of software support promise so just like the math just just doesn't work for me there I think among other reasons but yeah I don't know let us know Smiley I hope you find something or maybe just going to have to join the rest of us in the world who lost the headphone jack and we mourn it every day.

56:00So I've got another one here. This is from TJ Huddleston. He also messaged me on threads or Blue Sky, one of those. And I kind of hinted at what I think he should get. But here's TJ explaining it. Hey, my name is TJ Huddleston. I am considering switching from iOS to Android, and I'm not really sure if that is the right move for me. I used Android from its inception up until the iPhone 12, and one of the reasons I switched to the iPhone 12 is that I just wanted my phone to work. I used my phone for work more often, and I got tired of all the slowness and uncertainty when it came to Android, but now I'm just getting bored.

56:42But here's my issue, is that I work in a construction-related field, and so I always need access to my phone. My phone is a tool, and so I need really good battery life, but also I need a good warranty service. One of the things I really like about having an iPhone or Apple device in general is that I can go to an Apple store, and I can have my phone fixed most of the time the same day, and so I really want that capacity whenever I switch to an Android phone. Part of me just wants to get a Samsung, maybe the S25 Ultra, because it has that nice stylus and I can annotate on pictures and stuff like that.

57:16So my question for Allison is if you were focused on repairability or maybe service when it came to maintenance and repairs, who would you choose? Thanks. Love the show. I love that TJ and I agree because he names the phone I think he should get, which is the S25 Ultra. And there's a few reasons for that, some of which he mentions, but I'm curious if that was your instinct too, Dom. Yeah, I mean, definitely if we're talking about the US and even really outside the US, it's got to be Samsung. If your aim is serviceability and you want to be able to get quick, easy, reliable repairs for a device and you don't want it to be an Apple, then yeah, Samsung is absolutely going to be the next best thing.

58:07And Google third best. It is one of those cases where the big brands that play in the US are absolutely the best options. And then, you know, the S25 Ultra, it sounds like, you know, TJ likes the sound of the stylus and the big display. He talked about wanting a foldable for the big screen. So going for the Ultra makes sense. Yeah. And I would steer him away from a foldable in this case. Yes. Just for the, yeah, the repairability things he mentions. And like, I can see how the big inner screen would really come in handy. But I guess I think that's a situation where you like also have a tablet if you need that kind of thing.

58:43But the S25 Ultra being a gigantic phone is the closest you're going to get on a slab style phone. And something else going for the Ultra is that, and it doesn't get talked about enough, I think, is the anti-glare coating on the screen, which is really good. And especially if he's working outside with it a lot and if the sun's shining, we're sort of used to casting a shadow over your phone and hunching over it and then you can see it outside. You have to see it to believe it, but the Ultra really is better to use outside, I think. Yeah, that's a great shout. Yeah, we've seen all the brands over the last few years sort of competing on claims about how bright the displays get with that focus on USAP doors.

59:30And it almost doesn't matter because the Ultra is there with the anti-glare coating that does a much better job than just pumping up the brightness in the screen. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of wild. So I think it's a good choice for that. And like you mentioned, just the availability of places you can walk into. Samsung has an agreement, I think, with, it's called like You Break, I Fix It. Not I Fix It, something along those lines. But I see enough of those around that I sort of filed away in the back of my head. Like, yeah, I could bring a Samsung phone there if I needed to. I say this with a little hesitation because I'm not 100 % on the US market side of this, but I'm pretty sure Samsung has some sort of subscription care service, a little like Apple Care Plus, you know, one of those sign up and pay them a certain amount per month and it gets you a guarantee of a certain number of repairs or easier access to repairs or something like that.

1:00:24So that would be something to look at as well if you know that that worry that you're regularly breaking your phone, if you have that concern. the wild card I'd say again with my little non-US hat on is a Fairphone which is a very different take on repairability and serviceability because you fix it yourself but they are very easy to fix for the most part I was just reviewing the Fairphone 6 the latest model and I am a complete idiot with this kind of stuff but I managed to take the phone completely apart to its parts and put it all the way back together and it still worked at the other end of it all and they sell their own, you know, replacement displays, USB ports, speakers, individual camera modules, things like that.

1:01:02You can get the Fairphones in the US, but they're only sold through this company called Moreno that makes this privacy de-Googled OS. It makes them quite expensive. And the OS is a little specific and limiting. I don't totally dislike it, but you've got to want the de-Googled side of it. And if that doesn't appeal, I think you'll find it quite frustrating, especially if TJ's hesitation was that he'd been in the ropey early days of Android and was hoping it was a lot better and more polished. EOS is good but I don't think polished is like the word it feels a bit like going back to Android five years ago.

1:01:37But if you are outside the US or in the US and willing to import you can get a fair phone with their own software which is kind of closer to stock modern Google and works pretty well and you know they give you years of software updates you can fix the phone easily yourself get spare parts so that's a very different take on wanting a phone that's serviceable repairable but that's that's an option elsewhere as well yeah the diy option i took a an hmd skyline apart and not not like really apart it's a it's one of those like ultra repairable phones yeah and replace the battery myself and i felt like i was unstoppable.

1:02:14I was like, I want to take every phone apart. I know. It was so much fun disassembling this spare phone. I surrounded by tiny screws and I only got two bits wrong when I put it back together and it still worked once I figured that out. So anyone can do it if I can. TJ, let me know what you bought, what you plan on buying and good luck to you. So last kind of call in here, we have Sean with, I think, a conundrum that I hear a lot from people. So we'll listen to Sean. Hey, Allison. I am kind of torn. I have been in the Android ecosystem for a very long time. Then I switched to iPhones because my company switched to iPhones.

1:02:58Then I ended up getting my own personal iPhone. So now I have two phones and I'm kind of debating, do I want to go back to Android? You know, my whole family is now on iPhones. And so it's like, that's really the struggle, right? is they all have iPhones. So now we've got iMessaging. Now we've got shared calendars. Now we've got all these different pieces that kind of integrate to each other. So when I used to have an Android, it was a huge problem because we couldn't have a shared family calendar. We had to try to make it work between Google Calendar and Apple Calendar, and it's just never great.

1:03:32So did I just stick with Apple and it just keeps the ecosystem harmonized together where the whole family's on the same thing? or if I do switch, what are some of the apps that maybe I could use or should use to try to keep that same compatibility going across all of the family's devices? Thanks a lot. Have a good day. A family divided. This is always when I see a couple and one of them has an Android and one of them has an iPhone. I am always asking them this question. I'm like, how's that going for you? I feel like my big answer is like, how much do you want to keep the peace? And also, generally, it has gotten better being a mixed OS family these days than maybe it was five years ago.

1:04:23But do you have a go-to answer on this, Dom, when people are grappling with this? I have no useful practical advice because when I first started dating my current partner five years ago, she was using an iPhone. I basically kind of forced her to switch to an Android because she kept getting jealous of like the cameras on my phones and eventually switched. And it was like, oh, that's better. Now we just sync up and everything's easier. Yeah. So I haven't had to live that life of moving between them, at least not in the last few years. I agree it's a lot better than it used to be. If Sean's experience is from a few years ago and kind of comparing five to 10 years ago, that process to now, it will definitely be better.

1:05:0280 to 90 % of the time, everything will just work and it'll be fine. And it won't matter that you're on an Android phone and your partner or your kids are on iPhones. And there'll be that one time where some calendar bit goes a bit screwy or, you know, the messaging app gets annoying or something like that. And then you'll all be really irritated by it. And how invested are you in voiding those sort of sporadic irritations is the question. Yeah. And it will be your fault. It doesn't matter if the Apple products are not getting it right. It doesn't matter. It's your fault. I have lived this in my own household.

1:05:40Yeah, and I will say, like, especially in the US, we don't tend to use the third party messaging apps like you all do. So having RCS support on iOS now has been huge. When I'm on an Android phone now and I'm on a flight, I can still message my husband on his iPhone because we're just doing RCS over Wi-Fi and all that. So that has been a really big help, I think, to the people in the mixed ecosystem situation. Something I will add is that the very recent Pixel 10 phones come with Qi2, which is a wireless charging standard, but also has the magnets built in. And it's basically MagSafe. So if your family is using MagSafe accessories, they have things around the house that, you know, you would not normally be able to plug into like a magnetic charger.

1:06:37You can look at the Pixel 10 and you'd be able to just like slide right into that ecosystem there. But yeah, I think that your point of like something is going to go a little sideways. I certainly have been fine with calendars, you know, switching between iPhone and Android. I think I've gotten, it takes a little bit of futzing around, but you can get, you know, all the Google calendars you're supposed to see on iPhone and vice versa. Something goes weird sometimes. And I don't know, you just got to own it. If you're cool with that, then the world is your oyster on Android. So we have a bunch more questions.

1:07:20We'll get into some emails, but we're going to take a really quick break.

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1:09:18Welcome back. We are going to get back into some more listener questions, and we have some emails to read. My favorite thing, reading emails. But these are delightful. So this one is from Izzy, and I'm going to kind of paraphrase it the best I can. She says, Hi, I'm Izzy. I have a Samsung S24 Plus and I own it outright. Congratulations, Izzy. That is a big deal, actually. So she's rarely on social media, but does a lot of texting for a main job. The main use case she's interested in, she calls herself a reader with a capital R. I love this. Reads books and comics and has like 10 different apps for different kinds of content to read.

1:10:04reads two to three books a week and also says she doesn't care about AI until it stops hallucinating or has a killer app or something. Amen to that. So the conundrum is because she owns her phone, she's under no pressure to move, but she wants to make the reading experience better. Does she look at a books device or a kind of premium reader? She says, while an e-reader is interesting, She's more of a one device type of girl. So yeah, this one is interesting because I know more people who definitely have a dedicated device for reading on the go, like a Kindle or like our favorite, our books, Palmas.

1:10:51The really oddball one I'll throw out there, and I don't actually think because you should buy it. I'm testing this TCL 60XE that has an e-ink-ish mode where you, it just brings the screen to monochrome. You can do it in two ways where it really like is sort of a focus mode thing if you want to like pay attention to notifications less, or you can just kind of mimic an e-ink screen and just have access to like all the normal stuff on your phone. I've been carrying it around as a kind of second device in my, I'm not doing anymore, but when I was trying to use a watch, like an LTE watch as my phone, I had this on me so I would have a screen to read something.

1:11:44And it was all right. It was like surprisingly kind of pleasant for that. not a great phone overall so i don't think that's the answer yeah do you have any ideas here dom i think izzy should maybe look more closely at the the bookstall foldable it seems to suggest this as an option and then hesitate about um the aspect ratio and the price which is understandable i mean i would say i said earlier when i have a bookstall foldable i don't actually open them up that much except for reading reading is what i find them really great for the aspect ratio and they're open, it's kind of squarish, usually, or like a little bit portrait, that makes them odd for watching video or playing games.

1:12:26And that vision of open your phone up to watch a movie doesn't really work because you don't get a lot more space. But open your phone up to read a book or even just, you know, read an article on a website or something. I always do that. That's when I want to open them because it just feels like suddenly the screen is so much more spacious, so much more comfortable to read on. And I much prefer that. So I do think if reading is the use case that maybe it sounds like an unnecessary expense to get this sort of one and a half thousand dollar phone just to read ebooks on but it is better and i do think that would be a nice experience i really think it will feel like worlds better than reading on a slap phone and definitely better than reading on on a flip phone which is sort of the other option suggested there which i don't think getting a flip phone solves any of the problems here other than that flip phones are fun and i love flip phones so i do often recommend them but that doesn't necessarily seem like the right thing here so i would look at a bookstore one they are expensive but you know you can look at a last gen model or something you know we've just had the pixel 10 pro fold you can look at the 9 pro fold and see if that means you can get it at a better price and that kind of thing i probably wouldn't look at the last gen samsung right now just because they made such a big jump with the with the zepholt 7 and so the zepholt 6 is maybe a bigger compromise compared to the pixels where i think the 9 is is really giving you a lot of what you get with the 10 i like the look the 10, but I don't think you're losing too much with the 9 unless you really, really want the Qi 2 charging.

1:13:48I read this question and I think, yeah, buy a big foldable. It sounds like that's going to solve your problem. Yeah. The more I hear you argue for it, I'm like, yeah, that does make sense. And given that Izzy owns her S24 +, when those trade-in deals come around, Samsung will give you a lot of money off a foldable for your S24+. Very good point, yeah. Yeah, keep an eye on those. That will really take the sting out of the price because they are super expensive. But yeah, I think would be a lot of fun for that use case. And when you're done reading, you can just close it and that feels great. so all right izzy i'm sorry we um you are resigned to spending 1500 but that's what we that's what we decided here in phone court legally binding all right so next up we have a question from sam and also going to kind of paraphrase this so sam had an iphone 13 pro got sick of it and then downgraded to the iPhone SE 2 to hang on to that home button.

1:15:00But is struggling with the common complaints of spending too much time on social media and wanting access to like texting, email, calling, podcasts, all that stuff, but has a hard time kind of moderating the social media and screen time. So Sam is looking into dumb phones and thought about getting a flip phone or the light phone, but hesitated because they might not have enough of the functionality. Spent some time with the Unihertz Jelly Star, which we've kind of touched on Unihertz a couple times, but Android phones that really lean into the hardware of like minimalism. and it sounds like it was too small and her eyes started hurting from reading the small text on the small screen.

1:15:52She says, I mostly use text and email on it so it wasn't putting too much of a strain on my eyes but my one vice was reading the news on the tiny screen and I think that's what strained my eyes the most. I am sorry to hear that. So it's switched back to the SE2 but is missing a tiny phone. so oh my gosh sam you've been on a journey a journey that brought you to unihertz and back i'm so sad that we finally have someone who like did go out and get the small phone the smallest small phone the one everyone says they want and it made her eyes hurt and now she's having to find a bigger phone yeah i know oh no yeah um that's a real bummer yeah i own an iphone 13 mini i love it i'm not parting with it until it's a security risk i don't think i'd recommend someone go buy one second hand at this point.

1:16:42Yeah, we're going to talk a little bit more specifically about that. But there is the, you know, the battery life is not going to be super great at this point. So the one suggestion I'll throw in here is that maybe the answer is a cellular watch because this is an experiment I just ran, you know, trying to see how much I could get away with doing on the watch as kind of a minimalist phone or like a phone replacement. And I had a little bit of trouble, you know, getting everything done with a watch, but it gets you a surprising amount of functionality. You can play your podcast, you can type messages to people, and it's a little fiddly, but it's not the worst.

1:17:29So I would throw that in as an option. It sounds counterintuitive. You're like, more screens and more notifications buzzing me. Won't that be more distracting? But I'm kind of a believer. So that's the one I'll throw in there. Dom, do you have an idea here for Sam? I have a different suggestion, but it's kind of along the same spirit, which would be looking at a foldable flip phone, which also is adding an extra screen into the mix and adding a smaller screen into the mix. but it sounds like the balance i think sam is trying to strike here is a small phone she won't use too much that will sort of stop her from constant phone use but one that when they do use the phone won't hurt her eyes and i guess a flip phone for me like there's you know samsung z flip or moto razer gives you a little of that because you can have it shut and you can kind of control notifications and what apps you can have run on the outer screen and it can be this sort of minimalist phone experience when it's closed and you just i definitely found my general screen time always goes down when i'm using a flip phone there's something about the psychological barrier that the phone is closed that makes me much less likely to open it while i'm watching tv and mindlessly scroll social media or something it doesn't matter it only takes a second to open the phone it's not like it's a hardship but there's some like imperceptible barrier that makes me more likely just leave it be and my screen time overall definitely goes down but when you do have that moment where you give in you have the vice and you want to scroll the news for hours like like sam does you have a normal size phone that you can open up and it's not gonna give eye strain from using it um you know there's enough screen space to bump the tech size off if that would be helpful in this kind of case whereas the jelly star i think is just too small to even make that really practical.

1:19:24So for me, I think those kind of flip phones give you a bit of the best of both worlds. Lowered screen time, but a real functional, useful phone screen when you want to get to it. Yeah, totally. And that's what I love about a flip phone is you can do so much. And Motorola is like slightly better about letting you just do whatever the hell you want on the cover screen. You have to jump through a couple of hoops on a Samsung phone, But you can get there. But yeah, I run like apps that are by no means meant to be run on a screen that small. And you can get away with stuff like checking like bus arrival times or glancing at Google Maps and being like, OK, that's that's my next move.

1:20:08So that would be a super fun option. I hate to be like, I don't know, a mom, but I think we probably all need to get better about focus modes. Like, you know, they're not perfect. But I think there's a lot I know I could be doing to kind of like tailor what notifications are allowed to bother me at what time. And that would help me kind of cut down on the, oh, I was checking my email and all of a sudden I've been on Instagram for an hour or whatever. So that's like the less fun answer. But yeah, buy a flip phone. That is part of it. Yeah. I mean, I think you and I both given kind of the same answer in a way.

1:20:51It's have a real phone maybe, but have some other smaller screen that you can control and limit and make that the screen you use 80 % of the time while knowing, you know, there is a phone there when you really, really need it. And whether that smaller screen is on your wrist or on the outside of the phone, it's kind of getting to the same end result, right? Yeah, little screen on a big phone is the way to go, I think. All right. Good luck with your flip phone, Sam. Next, we have a message from Alina. And she says, currently, I'm rocking a Pixel 6a running Graphene OS, but it was already used when I bought it.

1:21:32The screen glass is broken. It has 128 gigabytes of storage. And the touch gestures don't always work, probably due to the broken glass. okay, I think it's time for a new phone, Alina. She's concerned about a splash of water, destroying the OLED, and is looking for a relatively cheap phone that meets her needs. She says she wants to keep it to$500 or under. You know, it has some questions about the Apple ecosystem. The iPhone mini comes up again as a thought here. She says, I have all my music as MP3s and use a music player that plays locally stored music, which is 40 gigabytes of stuff, but like way to go, is intrigued by folding phones and a flip phone potentially.

1:22:21I think the boring answer is a Pixel 9a. And I do think there's a fun answer here, but I mean, the Pixel 9a fits the price bracket. We'll get seven years of OS updates, so you don't have to worry about that. But it does mean you are embracing the Google apps and the Google experience. So if you would like to get away from that, a Pixel phone is not going to be the way to go. But I think really for it's just my go-to for I want the most durable, the most long-lasting phone I can get for the least amount of money. It's kind of that like peace of mind phone to me. like I make my parents buy a Pixel A series when it's their time.

1:23:10Dom, do you have any other ideas or something more fun than my boring Pixel suggestion? I default to the exact same boring answer. I think this is also, it A, fits a lot of what Alina says. She wants not everything but a lot. B, for me, the moment anyone says around 500 bucks, my brain just fills in Pixel 9a. yeah it's a very good default option to be looking at around that price i might throw in a second shout out to the fair phone which i think is very slightly outside of this budget i think it's 550 euros um and alina says she's in germany so i hope that's a relevant number for her but she mentions not wanting kind of too much of the google side you you can get the version running eos you can get that in europe as well so that's completely de-googled as an option um she mentions a long long-term support and durability.

1:24:02I think it's eight years of OS updates Fairphone gives you. It's something definitely in that region, so you're getting it for a long time. It's around the right price. She says she doesn't seem to have two super demanding kind of performance requirements from it. So a Fairphone might be a nice option just for meeting kind of that side of the demand. And it really is going to give you that longevity. And if you do break the screen again, you can just replace it yourself. Hey, it can be done. We know. Yeah, I've put that to the test. All right. Well, I love that she's in Germany and therefore has more than like two options for phones.

1:24:39But yeah, there's your safe answer and then the slightly more daring one. But I think two good options there. So the last question I want to get to is the iPhone mini question. And I want to say this is a representative question. I got so many iPhone mini owners reaching out to me people with the iPhone mini 12 or 13 I sort of brought this upon us because I prompted it and I own an iPhone 13 mini but I think a lot of people are at that point with these phones where they're seeing like the performance is slowing down the battery life wasn't ever great to begin with and is getting steadily worse so this is for everyone who wrote in with the iPhone mini question.

1:25:30And okay, get ready for this question because it goes on a journey. This is from Zoe. She says, I am the iPhone 12 mini owner. I absolutely love this phone and would take it to my grave if I could. Same. It's the only phone since the iPhone 5, 5S, an original SE. Oh my God, iPhone 5 is such a banger that I can comfortably used one-handed and the only one that fits in the infuriatingly tiny pockets found in most women's clothing. Yes! Oh my God. I so feel this. She says, last year, it flew out of my pocket on a roller coaster and was smashed to oblivion. This is heartbreaking. Unfortunately, my replacement 12 mini is now showing its age.

1:26:16So she's looking for the upgrade path and it's considered a used iPhone 13 mini, but thinks that'll probably put her back in the same position. The idea of something that folds down to a pocket-friendly size is very appealing, but she says she's embedded in the Apple ecosystem, so will ideally stick with iPhone unless there's a super compelling Android alternative. She ends this with, finally, if there's no obvious alternative, are my tiny hands doomed to rely on pop sockets forever oh my gosh zoe i this is extremely relatable this is so tough i just want to say it's probably time to embrace like the get the smallest iphone that exists now which would be like just a regular iphone 16 but i don't know do you have any other ideas for zoe and all the other suffering iphone mini owners yeah i feel like we're sort of ending here with another of these sad questions where we just can't give people the answer they want to hear.

1:27:22There is no phone that solves this problem. There is no magical Android alternative that fits the bill. Buy the iPhone 16. It's like you say, it's the smallest iPhone you're going to get. It's the closest you're going to get to that experience. The Android alternatives like the S25 or the Pixel 10 are basically the same size as an iPhone 16. So if you prefer iOS, you should stick with that. You're not getting a big benefit by jumping to Android. I think the only reason for someone in Zoe's position to jump to Android is a flip phone. If that's a temptation, I think, you know, we've kind of mentioned them a few times.

1:27:57I think they are getting really good now. I'm a big fan of them. I think they don't have to be that expensive. You look like the Motorola Razr, the base Razr models. They're very affordable for what they are, well below a grand and still really solid phones. you do get that compact size they are big when they open up though i think people don't always realize that they're small when they're shut they're small in your pocket they're lightweight but they actually have bigger screens than say an iphone 16 to pick that as the point of reference so when it's fully open it's not going to feel like a small compact phone it might actually feel like a really big phone to you when you open the flip phone up and the last thing i just say is don't wait for the foldable iphone we we don't know what that will be we don't know if it'll be a flip or a book style it's not going to be this year it might be next year it might not be next year it's not worth waiting on for yeah i would say hold out i think if you can to the you know we're so close to iphone 17 season and there are rumors of um like a slimmer iphone we're doing slim phones this year the air might help if that materializes the iphone 17 air i mean it would be lighter if the weight is a big part of the concern right it doesn't sound like it's going to be smaller in terms of screen size like like we've seen with the samsung you know that the version of a thin phone the edge is yeah it's not small it's just thinner and lighter and yeah i think that's the way apple's going as well so if weight is your problem i know some people love small phones and it's and it's a weight thing i've spoken to people with wrist issues and arthritis and for them it's not about screen size it's about phone weight and if that's you then then hold out the iphone 17 air or whatever it is might might solve that problem i don't know but if it's if it's that little screen you like and the sort of easy one-handed use then wait for the iphone 17 just because it'll make the 16 cheaper exactly yeah yeah at this point this is sort of like a moratorium on buying new iphones sort of starts right now where it's like yeah you might as well just wait and see you know they'll take a hundred off the price of iPhone 16.

1:30:09I used the Galaxy Edge a bunch, which is, you know, in theory, could be like what a potential iPhone 17 Air would be. Being thinner and lighter is, like, makes it feel different. It was very nice. It did not feel like a small phone because it has a big screen. In the pocket thing especially, like, it's still a big phone. It's still like at the capacity for my like little pouch bags that I'm bringing to the playground. It will fit into an evening clutch, which I do not carry very often, but that was a data point. But yeah, I think it is Popsockets forever, Zoe. I'm sorry. Our colleague Sean Hollister, I think, went through the exact same path that she's kind of mentioning.

1:31:03He had the iPhone mini, ditched it for the, I think he got a Samsung flip phone, and had that for about a year and was not happy with it. I think the battery life was probably equivalent to the mini, all things considered. and it doesn't like it folds down into a square, but it's a thick square. So it doesn't fit in a pocket the same way. Like I can get the iPhone 13 mini into my front jeans pocket and it's not ridiculous. Flip phones are still a little bulkier. And like you mentioned, when you open it, it is a big phone and you are still doing the big phone, you know, kind of juggle of trying to reach something in the corner of the screen.

1:31:48So yeah, I think my general advice for the iPhone mini owners is like, first of all, don't download beta software like I did because that has been a journey. But you know, the things you can try are like get the battery replaced. I don't know if there's if this is a real thing, but a suggestion I saw just for like older phones in general would be to back it up and do a factory reset. And that might help performance a little bit. It's like, I haven't tried it myself. It seems, you know, unplug it, plug it back in kind of concept. It's got that energy to it. Yeah. I remember that working a lot on Windows PCs back in the day.

1:32:32I don't know how applicable it is to a phone these days, but it might help. Yeah. Right. It's something to try. It's like a ritual. You know, you can light some candles. It feels like you're cleansing the phone somehow, getting rid of all that junk you've filled up. So give it a go. It's like a juice cleanse for your phone. Yeah. Detox. Yeah. Yeah. I thought I think about this a lot and it sort of just turns into a dance of like, when do you feel like it's time to let go? When are you so annoyed with the battery life? It's just not serving you anymore. I don't use my mini that much because I'm bouncing around from phone to phone, but I did have my SIM in it this past few weeks and it is really slowing down and the battery life is kind of crap.

1:33:28So yeah, it might be time. I don't know. I'm going to hold of mine but i think i give if if you're looking for permission like blanket permission to let go of your iphone mini i i will offer that yeah there's nothing to hold out for there's nothing on the horizon that will solve this problem don't don't keep going thinking a year from now the magical phone will arrive that fixes this like it's not coming so just make your peace with it and you know enjoy the time you've got left and uh yeah figure out what the next step is this is so sad it's like grief for your mini it's okay yes yes maybe we'll have a funeral maybe we can have like sold some kind of service where people can like bring their minis and we'll just we'll just let them rest they've done a lot they've they've done probably more than their little little batteries and processors should have so we'll let them go well that's like a super downer to end on but that's what we have thank you everyone who wrote in and called in I listened to all of your messages and read all of your messages and it was it was so fun it's so nice to you know know you're not alone and we're all going through this trying to to figure out our next move and hopefully we we helped some people and and didn't depress too many iphone mini owners that's what we can ask for yeah but thank you for joining me tom no of course thank you for having me all right that's it for the verge cast today to read more about today's topics check out the show notes or go to the verge.com as always if you have thoughts questions feelings you can always email us at vergecast at theverge.com or keep calling the hotline 866-VERGE-11.

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