‘The Pitt’ S2E6. Plus, Apple Takes ‘Severance’ in-House and the ‘Spider-Noir’ Trailer.

9:24Andy Greenwald:Talk me through then before we move on, like just psychologically, look, doing a live show, you know, your nerves are firing, you're fired up. Yeah, the adrenaline. Yeah, and then you, and also your body is in full ketosis, having not eaten. And you choose to fill the gnawing hole in yourself with this program. Yeah. Did you enjoy it more? Did you enjoy it less? Did you feel sated at the end of watching it? Yeah. Because if we were in New York, you would have stopped for a slice or something. Sure.

9:56Chris Ryan:I would have had a whole night in front of me. You know, we would have gone out. We would have chased the dawn. I feel like I want to still be the guy who stays up until 12.15 on a weeknight. Good for you, man. You know?

10:09Andy Greenwald:Yeah.

10:11Chris Ryan:Nobody's going to wake me up in the morning and say, Dad, where's breakfast?

10:13Andy Greenwald:It would be super weird if they did.

10:16Chris Ryan:But I was just saying, it's okay for me to stay up late on a weeknight, even if I have to get up and come in and talk about Apple buying the IP rights for its own show back from a production company. I thought this was interesting. This is the first headline I want to throw at you now. I like to go to you for this behind-the-scenes business-level stuff. Totally. Comrade Tim Cook seizing the means of production for Severance, going in and paying a reported$70 million to buy basically the IP, the rights. He bought Severance from Fifth Season, which was the original production company who stay on as executive producers.

10:55Chris Ryan:I don't know how ceremonial that is or whether or not they're instrumental going forward in doing the third season of Severance, the reported fourth season of Severance. the hint that there could be more seasons of severance, the hint that there could be spinoffs of severance, and additionally, although I never really would have thought this was an export, an international version of severance. Different countries, so like the way that The Office popped up in a couple of different countries, obviously. Let's start with the business side of things.

11:23Andy Greenwald:Look, when you're on a tear like Tim Cook is on, from attending the Melania premiere to this, he's crushing it.

11:31Chris Ryan:No, so it's an interesting... For folks who don't understand, it's not uncommon where a different studio, a different production company is selling the show to the streamer that is distributing it.

11:42Andy Greenwald:I mean, there are some places that generate most of their content in-house. There are some places that have their own robust studio business, but then also are buyers. and Apple, you know, starting from zero, one of the things that the guys in charge of Apple television from the beginning have been very plain about is that they were coming from, they were the heads of Sony.

12:06Chris Ryan:Yeah, which is a buyer.

12:07Andy Greenwald:Which is a seller, complete seller. They don't buy. That they wanted to have an in-house studio and they built that up over time. So I think now roughly half of Apple shows are in-house. And I think they bought Ted Lasso and Silo,

12:19Chris Ryan:if I remember correctly.

12:19Andy Greenwald:Milo is the example that I know of something that started as an external show and they bought and brought in-house for its second season. So there's precedent for what they're doing with Severance. If you read, I thought the article about this was pretty, if you read between the lines, it was pretty. This is in Deadline. In Deadline. It was pretty honest in a way that some of these stories aren't. Like, obviously, it paid lip service to things that are factually true about the growth potential for the series, the importance of the series to Apple's overall strategy in terms of awards, in terms of having its own franchises to build larger IP on.

12:54Andy Greenwald:I don't quite see the growth in terms of merchandising unless they're looking forward to selling a lunchbox that comes out every three years and opens weird.

13:05Chris Ryan:They could definitely sell a Severance board game or a Severance video game.

13:10Andy Greenwald:Sure, or a desk.

13:11Chris Ryan:Sure, they could sell desks.

13:12Andy Greenwald:Yeah, they could sell desks is what I'm saying, hallways. All of that makes sense. But if you read between the lines further, what you get is some of the stuff

13:19Chris Ryan:I can see maybe I should be working why don't you go off

13:22Andy Greenwald:on this for a minute why don't you just no bad ideas and a brainstorm this is the most animated you've been today

13:28Chris Ryan:it's the ways in which Apple can get some new revenue going well you've got

13:32Andy Greenwald:all this like capital right you're up till midnight like what are you gonna do dear Tim

13:38Chris Ryan:some thoughts after watching tell me a lie after watching this girl masturbate

13:42Andy Greenwald:why don't you do it as a voice memo for him see what he does with it um Gotcha. Yeah, you did. Gotcha. If you read between the lines of the article, there's a lot of the stuff there that is sort of generally understood but not fully reported or sourced, which is this has been a bear of a show to produce. That I think there's a passing reference to season two starting production at the end of 22 and finishing in 24. Right. Strikes, et cetera. Strikes, et cetera, but also I believe it's referred to as Ben Stiller's feature background and exacting vision, ballooning costs, and all the other things that went along with making the show, writer's room, turmoil.

14:25Andy Greenwald:There's a sense within the article that the show or the demands of the show or now the expectations of the show have far outstretched fifth season's ability to fund it on its own.

14:36Chris Ryan:They were essentially being asked to float the production for many, several years in between seasons as things went up and went down. And Apple obviously has the pockets to do so.

14:44Andy Greenwald:Apple can pay for this. And Apple clearly is invested in paying for it. And I think it's interesting. It definitely guarantees the stability of the show or the chance for them to see it all the way through, wherever it is that it's going.

14:57Chris Ryan:I find Apple building, regardless of my relationship to any of these shows, some of which I like and some of which I've kind of maybe enjoyed and then moved on from, I find their relationship to their flagship shows very interesting. Because one thing that I admire and appreciate about Apple is their commitment to multi-season runs. And if they feel like something's working, they're just going to keep doing it. And that's been great for Slow Horses. It's obviously been great for Shrinking in terms of that fan base. The people who really love Shrinking, I'm sure are very appreciative that it's not like, is Shrinking coming back every nine months?

15:31Chris Ryan:And it kind of is getting close to replicating what a television network used to feel like where every year my show comes back. I know with interest that Shrinking is, a Warner Brothers show, I believe.

15:45Andy Greenwald:Yeah, Bill Lawrence.

15:45Chris Ryan:Comes through Bill Lawrence's Warner deal. But yeah, they continue to amass this sort of war chest of things. And it's like, you know what? Honestly, in three or four years, they could do the morning show without Aniston and Witherspoon. They could come up with a different pairing of people who were working in morning shows in the 70s. You could do the morning show in the 70s. All the President's Men style.

16:09Andy Greenwald:What else could you do, Chris? What's another list of things that they could do with a morning show.

16:13Chris Ryan:I'm just throwing free game to Tim Cook.

16:16Andy Greenwald:They could make a show about your morning where no one wakes you up. And it's just a very peaceful 15 minutes.

16:23Chris Ryan:I wake up every morning and I open up the Hollywood Reporter at my table and I say, what are we going to talk about on the watch? And I'm just tired of being mocked for my choices. I appreciate that commitment. I run this show.

16:36Andy Greenwald:Honestly, it's a division of labor I'm very comfortable with. The one thing, just to note, that we were talking about studios sell things, sell things to other streamers, et cetera, et cetera. I do find it interesting to note like the way some of these decisions are connected. So Bill Lawrence has had a, I mean, he's, when the books are written, maybe Alan Stepin will write this book someday about like the most successful creators in the history of TV. Bill Lawrence is without question among them, even though he has a lower profile, maybe because he's in comedy, but he's had a hit show in every decade for the last four decades.

17:07Chris Ryan:He has also done something that I thought, would never happen, which is merge the kind of sensibilities of multiple eras. Yeah. Often to, and I mean this as a compliment to his benefit in so much as he is doing a streaming show at the clip that he would do Scrubs, but with like a lower episode order.

17:26Andy Greenwald:Now he's doing Scrubs again. Yeah. But so Ted Lasso, Shrinking, Bad Monkey, I think comes from him as well. These are all shows that have found varying levels of success propping up Apple's brand. And he's done all this through his longtime home at Warner Brothers and the upcoming in the next few weeks Steve Carell comedy Rooster is both a Bill Lawrence show for HBO but also does to me feel a little bit like some kind of internal wait why are we letting this guy leave the building yes like we need to develop our in-house talent and we need to have one of his shows that are successful elsewhere here yeah and I haven't not watched enough of that show to determine like if oh this actually is an HBO version of a Bill Lawrence show.

18:10Andy Greenwald:I've watched one and it's enjoyable, but it's very Bill Lawrence enjoyable. And it's interesting to see, like, is that just, does that brand more important at this point than HBO's esteemed comedy brand? Not that it's belittling it. No. It's just that it is something that has worked elsewhere brought into, in-house. I think that, like,

18:25Chris Ryan:a couple years ago when they were doing, like, Flight Attendant, which the first season of Flight Attendant, I liked very much. And it was a Max show and Max was going to be this kind of, like, TNT version of HBO or something. and now I feel like between Heated Rivalry, maybe the Rooster like you're talking about, like a couple of other things that are, The Pit, obviously, a Max show.

18:48Andy Greenwald:Yeah, but Rooster's HBO.

18:49Chris Ryan:Yes, you're right. I'm saying HBO has loosened up what is HBO a little bit.

18:53Andy Greenwald:Well, or they're trying to, yes, they've done that and they've also tried to redefine what Max is. Did you see the trilogy of shows? They have the medical show, The Pit, which we're going to talk about in a moment. We talked about like, what is it, like Rhapsodies in Blue starring Milo Ventimiglia as a cop named Milk. And the Greg Berlanti family show, right? Which announced its patriarch in Ray Romano. How about that? Who I think is a really good actor, actually. There you go. I enjoy him as an actor these days.

19:17Chris Ryan:Spider Noir got its first trailer. This is the Amazon series from Lord Miller, broadly speaking, but has obviously different showrunners. Nick Cage, he plays a guy named Ben Reilly.

19:30Andy Greenwald:Want me to talk about that? I don't know if we have time.

19:32Chris Ryan:He's a kind of private investigator in New York in the 30s, and he is a Spider-Man. yeah go ahead just tell me because I'm just going to walk into a wall if I try to explain this

19:43Andy Greenwald:well for those of us who have watched and loved the Spider-Verse movies Nick Cage voices Spider-Man noir in those movies and those movies call together bring together like all the alternate Spider-Man that have existed in the comics in various forms and a noir version of Spider-Man has a comic book relatively recent but comic book history

20:06Chris Ryan:is it good

20:07Andy Greenwald:Yeah, I mean, I like both of those things, and they taste real good together. This show comes from a deal that Amazon made with Lord Miller off of the success of, and Sony off of the success of Spider-Verse to bring to the small screen Spider alts.

20:26Chris Ryan:Spider tent, Spider content.

20:28Andy Greenwald:The big tent of Spider-Man politics. And it has been a bumpy development road. I think the first announced one was a series based on a Korean-American spider girl that has gone through multiple showrunners, and I don't even know the current status of it. This one, I, full disclosure, met on this one, so I am aware of how long of a process this has been. This has been multiple years of building up some development and then starting from scratch.

20:59Chris Ryan:Do you think it's weird, and this is also full disclosure, that I have not yet heard back about my pitch for Spider MAGA about a guy who refuses to get vaccinated and that gives him spider powers?

21:09Andy Greenwald:I think because it's a bidding war. I think everybody wants that right now. And so I think right now they're just quibbling over a dollar figure for you. Thanks. Yeah, no. Let me know. You're always... This is what you do, though. You zag, because last week, Kai cut us up for the internet, so it looks like we're super, you know, we're like resistance libs. And now...

21:33Chris Ryan:I don't really want to...

21:35Andy Greenwald:you like keep people guessing. You're like what Michael Jordan said about sneakers, you know?

21:40Chris Ryan:Yes, that's true.

21:41Andy Greenwald:Everybody buys them, I'd say.

21:43Chris Ryan:That's sort of what he said. That's sort of what he said.

21:45Andy Greenwald:It's tricky to take something that is an idea and works in a cartoon or works in a comic book and make a live action version of it. And when I was aware of the conversations, it was meant to be like an inspiration or origin story or alternate version of the character that Nicolas Cage voiced in the cartoon. I don't know what point, long after I was done talking with him, someone was like, you know, Nick could do this. It definitely raises the interest and the surreality of it, I think, to see actually Nick Cage playing a freak.

22:16Chris Ryan:The rest of the cast is rounded out by a fantastic group of performers. Lauren Morris from Fargo and New Girl. Lee Jun Lee, who I thought was so great in Sinners. Karen Rodriguez from Hunting Wives. Abraham Papula from Slow Horses for a couple of seasons there. Jack Houston, and Brendan Gleeson. So that's a dynamite cast for this. And, interestingly enough, this is, it comes from Aura New Zealand who did Lost City and Steve Lightfoot who does The Punisher and they are co-showrunners. Interestingly enough, I believe this show will be released in both black and white and color versions. I think I will choose to watch it in black and white if I watch it, assuming I watch it.

22:58Andy Greenwald:Yeah, I think that was, they fight, people fight behind the scenes to get that happen. Like, I still can't believe that Garrett Bash and his producing team got Ripley released in black and white. Yeah. So I think that's really cool. I also think we should mention Harry Bradbeer, who directed on Fleabag and I think on Killing Eve as well. Seems to have brought a really cool visual style to it. I don't know. It looks pretty fun, honestly. It seems to understand the brief that what would make it more interesting and more unique at this point in time is less a Spider-Man or superhero show and more of a let's really play with noir convention.

23:39Chris Ryan:Yeah, it'll be interesting to kind of see what a year from now, assuming Spider-Maga isn't a go project and I'm not writing and directing every episode. I mean, fingers crossed. Of course. Where Amazon is a year from now, because as we noted in previous episodes, Peter Freelander, who is the longtime executive and had in charge of scripted at Netflix, is now at Amazon. I saw that they had made some new pickups, international titles that they had picked up, which I always thought Netflix had pretty good taste in international TV, especially the crime department. So for a while there, I've been kind of like, not dubious but a little just nonplussed about some of the prime video stuff where it's like major IP blockbuster attempts at kind of grappling with the Game of Thrones reality of television whether it's Fallout or the Lord of the Rings show and a lot of like pretty good to unwatchable guy with a gun whether it's Reacher Terminalist Bosch until it was actually then kicked down to Freebie and whatever it is now so I mean I'm just to see the direction that Amazon goes obviously this goes back to previous administrations but I'm curious

25:01Andy Greenwald:so you're saying previous administrations could have released the files who do you think the villains are and by the way everything you just said great I wasn't thinking about who Spider-Magga's villain is. My sense is that it's... It's obviously... I think it's measles. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, he's dominant.

25:22Chris Ryan:Yeah, Dr. Measles.

25:23Andy Greenwald:In everything. And he's really strong because he only eats meat and ferments. But... Yeah. Oh, measles! Oh, no! The webs do nothing. And then he dies, and then there's six more episodes of just black screen.

25:38Chris Ryan:That's cool.

25:39Andy Greenwald:Not black and white. Just black screen. It's pretty visionary.

25:44Chris Ryan:I was heavily influenced by David Lynch.

25:47Andy Greenwald:Heavily. I don't think this is as chaotic. I think we actually have enough actual things to talk about today so that I don't need to fill you in on the background of Ben Reilly in the Spider-Man universe. I mean, it's your dime, man.

26:03Chris Ryan:You can tell me whatever you want.

26:04Andy Greenwald:In here, it's just us. It's beautiful. Is that what Bill told you last night when we were doing Pacino for the 19th time? No, it's just Peter Parker can't be in these shows because Peter Parker's rights are controlled by Sony. Like all this stuff is micro-sliced into so many different, like, it's kind of like the NFL package. Yeah. Like who gets to run what when. Ben Reilly is a infamous name among Spider fans because there was a pretty controversial plot line I believe it was 90s into the 2000s where a guy basically it was suggested that Spider-Man Peter Parker who readers had enjoyed for 20 years had actually for 20 years been a clone and that the real Spider-Man was a guy named Ben Reilly and then that guy took over the suit and became the Scarlet Spider.

26:59Andy Greenwald:And everyone was like, and I believe I can sort of paraphrase comic book fans whose reaction to this was, what the fuck?

27:06Chris Ryan:Do you participate in online discourse about comic books? Not under my real name. Right. But I have a number of spirited clone accounts

27:17Andy Greenwald:where I actually... The Scarlet Spider's power is... No, I was wondering whether or not,

27:21Chris Ryan:because there's some art forms or some popular culture things that you're like, you and I will both be like, what are people saying about this new, this record or this new, this movie? But then there are things where I'm like, I actually don't care what people think. I like to read spy novels. Yeah. Like I literally don't care what any literary critic would ever say about Oliver Harris, for instance. Oh, sure. It's just like, that's mine. I dig it. Yeah. That guy just wants to stand in a hotel in Kazakhstan for 15 books. I will read it. Yeah. I feel the same way. But do you go like when you're reading comic books or you're like, I'm curious whether or not this is playing with the crowd.

27:56Andy Greenwald:Well, first I brush the Dorito dust from my fingers. Yeah. Get dressed.

28:03Chris Ryan:Play a couple of voicemails.

28:04Andy Greenwald:No, because my involvement, you never know. My involvement with comic books at this point in my life is not.

28:10Chris Ryan:It's Scarlet Spider-Man.

28:13Andy Greenwald:Your opinions about me are terrible. I am driven by market forces. I am not a, you know, I'd like to think that sometimes like within television or industries that we are more active in, we're like, aha, we have found the diamond in the rough and let us drive culture on this. Sure. With comic books, like, you know, the other week we were talking about what DC was doing with these absolute versions of their characters. I know about that because it percolated long enough to cross over into the mainstream. I was not in these comic book streets being like, oh, this guy's really, I'm not in, no.

28:43Chris Ryan:Would you say that the arena where you find most of this discourse is Facebook?

28:49Andy Greenwald:No, Facebook is just mostly sending me, like, I clicked on one, thanks for the opportunity to update everyone. And we didn't want to talk about this with, you know, not joking, but like I did click on a story about James Vanderbeek who passed away. And then this morning when I when I did run out of things to look at and I looked at Facebook, it was all really, really personal memories of people's loved ones dying written by people I don't know. So that was really cool that it found my interest and my passion. Yeah, that was that was great.

29:22Chris Ryan:Why are you on Facebook again? Is it just an addiction at this point? Is there something in there that's like, oh, I got to share this with my high school class or something?

29:31Andy Greenwald:Oh, I don't share.

29:33Chris Ryan:Okay.

29:33Andy Greenwald:No. No, no.

29:34Chris Ryan:You just lurk on Facebook.

29:36Andy Greenwald:It's purely because I ran out of stuff to look at to avoid starting my day.

29:40Chris Ryan:You know what? Anytime you're like, I don't want to go to Facebook, but I've run out of things to look at on the internet, hit me up.

29:46Andy Greenwald:How? Are you going to show me some stuff?

29:47Chris Ryan:Text me and I'll send you some links. Yeah.

29:51Andy Greenwald:Okay. On the dark web? No. Just stuff that's out there that I'm reading. Like, for example, what would you have sent me?

29:59Chris Ryan:I've been reading some cool sub stacks. There's one called The Hunt for Tom Clancy that I've been really enjoying. This seems useful.

30:05Andy Greenwald:Why don't you share this stuff with me? I will. I will. I mean, like, I thought the Michael Pollan interview about existence and perception was interesting, but I didn't send it to you because I feel like you're good on perception. You don't have kids. Like, I eat when I'm hungry and I go to sleep when I'm tired. I don't need to know about how I'm experiencing reality. Everything's great.

30:22Chris Ryan:That's not how it goes, man.

30:24Andy Greenwald:I'm like, please, please, are there other worlds out there?

30:28Chris Ryan:This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us. The intersection of interest that inspires a run crew. The support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. This episode is brought to you by Volkswagen It can be hard to do your own thing When everyone else is following everyone else But that's what some of the best films are about An outcast striving to make their own way in the world And this is your sign to be that outcast From us, from VW, from the other outcasts out there Take a chance Make the most of every day And don't be afraid to veer off course every now and then Because if you don't do it now, then when?

31:18Chris Ryan:Learn more at VW.com.

31:48Chris Ryan:This episode is brought to you by TaxAct. Like analyzing plot twists, TaxAct guides you step-by-step to make sure you get your maximum refund. Get tips along the way, add expert assist to talk to tax experts, or let our experts do your taxes for you with expert full service. TaxAct helps you find the deductions and credits you deserve so you can get them over with. Visit TaxAct.com to learn more. Conditions apply. See TaxAct.com for details. not to be too meta about it but sometimes i feel like uh the pit is getting short shrift from this podcast uh at least in the first five or six episodes is that where we're at but like this

32:28Andy Greenwald:was six it's so it's noon right it was noon yeah noon or 1 p.m actually i think i think we started

32:33Chris Ryan:and this episode is directed by noah wiley and we'll get into what can't that guy do i know man young citizen noah he's the king of television um and i feel like sometimes i like move it down the rundown a little bit. Like, there are some shows where I'm like, immediately let's get into this and let's start breaking down this amazing TV show. And it's really no testament. It has nothing to do with how I feel about The Pit or its quality. It's really more like, I think that a week or two ago, I became at peace with the idea that I was like, this is the first movement of this season. You know, like they...

33:06Andy Greenwald:You're talking about the old lady? No. Oh, a different kind of movement.

33:10Chris Ryan:You've been really scatological with your humor today.

33:12Andy Greenwald:I think because it kind of gets you. I don't like it. I know. And I think part of keeping our partnership spicy is I'm just making you a little uncomfortable.

33:22Chris Ryan:And I think that I just downshifted the amount that we talk about the show just because even to its high standards, which I think is still meeting, there just wasn't a lot to note. You know, we've talked about Al Hashimi, the new character, the new attending physician at the emergency department. We've talked about Langdon. I can go through the patients that we have. There are some that are incredibly affecting, some that are pretty gross, some that are seemingly there as springboards to talk about larger social issues, which the pit has often dove headfirst into. But the way that this episode ends, I thought signaled a start your engines moment for the season.

34:12Chris Ryan:Okay. So we get probably the first big wallop emotional beat at the end of this episode with Louis passing at the beginning of the episode and a lot of time spent with Dana as she prepares his body. Yes, and teaches. And teaches this first day on the job new nurse what that entails. I thought that was quite moving, quite beautiful. Catherine Lanassa has a lot more to do this season, quite obviously, and for good reason. And I thought she was incredible in this episode. And I thought that last scene was great. You know, the saying goodbye to Louis and the fact that Robbie was the only one who knew a sort of personal biography for this character and why there would be nobody coming to claim his body or spend time with him.

35:00But it did it.

35:02Chris Ryan:You know what I mean? Like, I think that there have been parts of this first season or this second season where I've been like, I don't really know if the chemistry is the same level that it was in the first season or that the internal drama of the department is clicking for me the way it did in the first season. But it is now.

35:20Andy Greenwald:I've never wavered. Yes. I, well, that's not true. I was a little like, oh, we're doing this again in the first few minutes or first three quarters of the first episode. But since then, I've just been so happy to be watching the show. I'm so dialed in to its rhythms and it's just not unique, but it's almost old fashioned, just, just satisfaction ratio. I thought this episode was incredible. And one of the reasons why I liked it so much is it's not just that the pit is executing classic television at the highest possible level. I do think that they are challenging themselves to honor the traditions of why we've always loved TV within its own challenging framework.

36:01Andy Greenwald:Meaning, this is real-time, like 24, we're getting, you know, everything is cumulative, everything is building. And yet somehow within that, they've been able to carve out space for Robbie to be one of the most compelling lead characters, star performances on television. And beyond that, what I thought was really impressive about this episode, and maybe this links to the larger conversation about when it's going to quote unquote get going is in a way this was the Pitts version of a bottle episode. The framing of Louis from his final moments at the beginning to the moments of respect at the end served as a spine for the episode that really was about dignity and the parts of the life experience that we who are lucky enough to be floating above it for as long as we can don't think about and don't worry about.

36:54Andy Greenwald:And there were moments in it that I found, and this is really remarkable for a show that, let's just say, governs in prose to the degree that this show does, if not governs fully in press releases written by the American Nurses Association. It's very declarative, yeah. It never misses an opportunity to educate.

37:10Chris Ryan:In the issues part of it. I think that it's done, it's doing better in terms of having some ambiguity and some mystery to the characters.

37:18Andy Greenwald:But there is still, it doesn't miss an opportunity to educate like, you know, most penicillin allergies aren't real. Oh, okay, good to know. But even in the midst of that, like there were moments that were borderline poetic to me. the ritualistic cleaning of the body while Dana's explaining it felt like something totemic like it made me think about how and I think they make a reference to this or Robbie does at some point that like other cultures throughout history have treated death differently than we do in America certainly in terms of honoring or respecting or having ritual that end a life as well as rituals that begin a life and even just within that context even the small bits of like factoids of like, well, if no one claims the ashes, it gets thrown into a mass grave.

38:08Andy Greenwald:Like that was heavy stuff. Yeah. And I thought that it was remarkably done for a show that can be heavy handed, even in ways that I think are educational or important. Like I thought that it had a relatively artistic touch for this episode that kept me, I'm always entertained, but I found myself moved.

38:26Chris Ryan:I was moved as well. I also thought that the juxtaposition of Louis with, and sometimes at the pit that you're just dealing with like up to 20 characters. So forgive me for not remembering the name of the prisoner who's in the hospital currently. Is it Gus? It might be. And the debate that's sort of going on between Alashimi and Robbie about whether or not they can really afford to keep him in the hospital simply to feed him better than he is being fed at the prison. And whether or not, I think Robbie is taking the long view that like, that's just a drop in the ocean. Like that's a bed somebody else could be using.

39:06Chris Ryan:And we're not really in the business of making sure a guy has enough protein and nutrients. We're here to like save lives. And it's like, this is a triage area, not a rehabilitation area. And Alashimi is just like, I believe that like you just, the way you change the world is to do good at every moment you can. And, you know, I don't think that Robbie is being intentionally inhumane about anything, but it was really interesting to see the kindness and obviously sort of the soul come out of him when it was talking about Louis, who has also been coming into the hospital basically for maintenance.

39:44Chris Ryan:You know what I mean? At this point.

39:46Andy Greenwald:They were his emergency contact.

39:48Chris Ryan:Exactly. And that's sort of his weird second family or the extent that he has one and he was asking Langdon about his kids and he seems to know everybody and it's like He knows the procedures as well as the attendings do. So I just thought it was a really thoughtful and uncommented upon within the show. It's not like anybody goes up to Robbie after he gives this Louis eulogy and says, you know, you should think about then. If that's how you feel about Louis, think about all the other people out in this.

40:16Andy Greenwald:There's a trickle-down effect of the emotion. The fact that a lot of... The Louis passing landed hard on Perla, who's a character who we don't often linger on, was a really beautiful opportunity that the show took to be like, well, she has a history and she has an inner life. The other story that I thought you were going to mention that dovetailed nicely with it is the terminal cancer patient who doesn't want to go home. Yeah. You know, because she doesn't want... She is in a different place with the objective reality of her death as opposed to the subjective emotional experience that her adoring husband is fully engaged in.

40:53Andy Greenwald:And again, that's like... And the presence of the other, the night charge nurse as the death doula. It was heavy. I mean, there's a scene in a show that we didn't really cover, Dying for Sex, where Paula Pell plays the comedian from SNL and Girls 5 Eva. She plays a death doula similarly. And it's like a long, quite powerful scene where she's like, do you want to know what happens? and it is a relatively uncelebrated opportunity that TV has to educate in that way. Sure. And play it across multiple storylines.

41:28Chris Ryan:I don't know if that's a universal experience for people, but yes, I agree with you.

41:32Andy Greenwald:Which?

41:33Chris Ryan:The explanations. No, for sure.

41:35Andy Greenwald:But I'm saying there are things that we don't like to think about in our daily life and there are things that we don't like to think about in our entertainment and there are things that people who make entertainment don't really want to spend time with either. But there are certain shows and certain stories and certain scaffolded story structures that allow for that in ways that I think are pretty fascinating and commendable. I did wonder, to your point about The Prisoner, do you think that Robbie has any kind of meta-versal awareness about what happened when David Krumholtz stabbed him and Kelly back in ER and thus he doesn't want potentially violent criminals in the emergency room?

42:13Andy Greenwald:Like, the show is aware of our pre-existing relationship with Dr. Noah Wiley. So I do wonder if that ever comes into it.

42:22Chris Ryan:Well, that certainly informs the way I watch him interact with Langdon.

42:27Andy Greenwald:Because it's like the past...

42:28Chris Ryan:Because Carter had such a, you know, pronounced drug problem in ER.

42:32Andy Greenwald:No, he didn't. Did he? Didn't he? Well, he maybe did. I don't remember.

42:35Chris Ryan:He was addicted to fentanyl. God damn, ahead of his time. What season was that? Sonic pain following the death of Lucy, following her death.

42:43Andy Greenwald:Wow, I have blacked that out.

42:45Chris Ryan:So that would go into season seven.

42:48Andy Greenwald:I was probably going to parties then with my fellow comic book fans. They were called conventions, honestly, but in my mind, they were fun as parties. It's very rare that I'm like, I got this piece of TV history and you don't. I know, because you were probably doing travel baseball then, and yet... Season seven ER, I was partying. We've also established that at the end of a long... When was season seven? Like 2000, 2001. Oh my God.

43:12Chris Ryan:You couldn't keep me off the streets since 2000. I know, we tried.

43:15Andy Greenwald:Three, nine, 11? But the city was yours. It was the hour before the 25th hour for you.

43:23Chris Ryan:It was the 24th hour.

43:24Andy Greenwald:So to speak. Yeah. But we've already established in this podcast that there's nothing you like more after a long, performative, draining experience than to fire up the idiot box.

43:37Chris Ryan:You know, it's also funny that you're mentioning the sort of metatextual relationship we have to actors and their other roles because the terminal cancer patient's husband is played by Taylor Hanley, who plays Kyle on Mayor of Kingstown. Oh, wait, but wasn't he also Cousin Oliver on the OC? Oh, I don't know. In my mind, I'm like, that guy's really seen some shit. You know, he was taken prisoner. Yeah, he's Oliver from the OC.

43:59Andy Greenwald:Okay. This is like two wolves, but one is kind of a puppy.

44:03Chris Ryan:One's Mayor of Kingstown. And the other is like, it's the OC, bitch.

44:07Andy Greenwald:One of those like, actually, Ben Reilly was the Scarlet Spider. That's cool.

44:12Chris Ryan:Let's talk about some other storylines going on in the pit right now. I wanted to ask you, we were talking about Robbie just now, so I'll mention this. How can his cavalier attitude about helmet safety on a motorcycle really manifest itself?

44:25Andy Greenwald:Yeah, so I wanted to talk about this.

44:27Chris Ryan:Because they've now made this a big thing.

44:29Andy Greenwald:Not only have they made it a big thing, it now seems six episodes into season two of the pit, it appears that all of the characters on The Pit are watching season two of The Pit. They know that we know that Robbie is a little cavalier about this. Thus, one third of the patients are motorcycle related this year, and everyone keeps looking at him like, you moron. You absolute fool. So I don't know how this shakes out unless they are building. I mean, there's a number of ways it could shake out. One of the ways it could shake out is the season could end and he could ride off, and then we linger on the night nurse.

45:01Andy Greenwald:It's like, guess who's coming back in? This time it's a patient. I mean, that's in play for them. I guess I appreciate the fact, again, with the sense of like firm hand on the wheel or on the handlebars in this case, that they are running towards it. That they're not trying to hide the fact that that's lingering.

45:20Chris Ryan:I also think it's pretty realistically human to have somebody who's like 98 % safe, but the 2 % is pretty bad.

45:27Andy Greenwald:Pretty wild, yeah.

45:29Chris Ryan:You know, because the 2 % is just like, If it goes wrong, it's over.

45:32Andy Greenwald:What do you think about, one of the other things that I just admire structurally on the show is the way that it takes the quieter moments within each episode, if not the quieter moments in the season, to just subtly address things that were lingering. Last week, it was what happened to Dr. Collins. This week, Langdon asked Dana about the guy who punched her. Oh, yeah. If there was any resolution there. And he talks about, what is it, how many months to be alone? 10 months that he was basically on the shelf alone with his thoughts to make us remember the amount of time that has passed for them.

46:01Andy Greenwald:And then the other thing that they're doing just expertly, I think, is bringing up on the big mixing board of life, just pushing up slowly on the supporting characters to give them a little bit more. The biggest example of that this week is nurse, no longer nurse, nurse practitioner Donnie.

46:22Chris Ryan:Yes, who is given a moment to show his extreme level of expertise when it comes to suturing, but is also put in a position where he's like, I think Mohan or somebody comes over. I can't remember who grabs a patient from him. It's like, I got this. And he was just like, I'm an MP now, so I can handle that.

46:41Andy Greenwald:I also think this is another example of them being smart about the cast that they have. So Brandon Mendez-Homer is the actor. Juilliard fit. Nice. And if you cast really talented stage actors, they can probably do more than just push crash carts in the background.

46:57Chris Ryan:For sure. Hot Dog Guy was pretty gross. Didn't need to really see him barf multiple times. The Deaf Lady, I'm curious where that's going. Can I ask a question? I think that that is also being used as an example of Santos' kind of... She's not... She's just not on the ball when it comes to patient relations. Detail-oriented. Yes, but she is still a badass in the room, though.

47:21Andy Greenwald:And is dating the surgeon. Yes. Or at least they have a situationship.

47:25Chris Ryan:Yeah.

47:27Andy Greenwald:Can I ask maybe a dumb question? There's no dumb questions. Well, I don't want to be insensitive, but couldn't the deaf patient write?

47:35Chris Ryan:I had this conversation with my wife while watching this. I do feel like they're making it a little hard. I'm sure it would be painstaking to be like, here, I'm going to write it down. but if she could just write down like, can you tell me how you were feeling in your head, stomach, everywhere? And then the deaf patient wrote it down.

47:50Andy Greenwald:Not even because Princess was like, how are you feeling? You know, and she was like, great, I'll tell you. She's like, I only know,

47:56Chris Ryan:but it speaks to the amount of detail that they need. For sure. And if Princess is like, she may have said stomach or she may have said...

48:02Andy Greenwald:But she's been waiting for five hours. Give her a whiteboard. She could write the great American novel about how she's feeling. Right. That's just me.

48:08Chris Ryan:I thought that was strange too, but I think it's also like the procedures that they're supposed to go through at the hospital. And they had this situation at the beginning of last season with the woman who, I can't remember, she was maybe from Nepal.

48:21Andy Greenwald:Yeah, they couldn't figure out the language.

48:22Chris Ryan:And they couldn't even find out what kind of interpreter they needed until they used Google. So sometimes maybe the most obvious answer is right there.

48:30Andy Greenwald:Can I recite a line of dialogue from this episode of television?

48:34Chris Ryan:Mm-hmm.

48:36Andy Greenwald:As I mentioned to Dr. Santos, generative AI is not perfect.

48:41Chris Ryan:speak on it

48:42Andy Greenwald:we gotta switch things up with this character

48:45Chris Ryan:yes Dr. Alashimi has been brought in to be a she's now right now just a character foil and she is a tweet and I like the performer and I think that there's potential here for the character but I don't know what we're doing with this character

49:03Andy Greenwald:we are entering this part of the season everything can change and it's the beauty of the show is that people can surprise you as they emerge over time. Like two weeks ago, we were like, what's up with Joy? And then two weeks later, we're like, oh, we understand a little bit more. She doesn't even want to be a doctor. She wants to be a pathologist.

49:20Chris Ryan:But she's good at figuring out what might be wrong with people.

49:22Andy Greenwald:Which is the kind of doctor you've liked since the days of House. Yes. We are at the point where I think it's fair, since we have a twice-weekly podcast, to say this character is not working yet. And we can praise the performer all we want, but it could potentially be a case of a mismatch. because she's now actively dragging the show down. I would say the character.

49:44Chris Ryan:It also doesn't reflect great on Robbie though because clearly other people are starting to gravitate towards her a little bit. Santos might be a little bit annoyed that she's like, make sure you're up on your charting. But for the most part, everybody seems to be like, okay, I'll go along with what your ideas are. The generative AI stuff aside. Yeah. Much like the show itself, I think we need to give her the back nine of the season. I think that's fair. to see where she's at.

50:10Andy Greenwald:Do you relate to, I think you don't because we've already discussed your feelings about scatology. Mm-hmm. But I thought that was a remarkable rebound for Ogilvy, who 90 minutes ago was being... Sprayed with shit. And then he's like, I was born to do this. Yes.

50:25Chris Ryan:I thought for a second he might not have been born to do it.

50:28Andy Greenwald:I feel like that would have, I feel like that would have wavered almost any confident young man. You know what I mean? Like at least giving you like, wait till the second day before you decide you were born to do that.

50:38Chris Ryan:That would be the first thing they tell you at med school. It's like, you guys signed up for this, but just so you know, you can get just sprayed down with all sorts of fluids.

50:46Andy Greenwald:I honestly appreciated the honesty of the show most when the hot dog guy was bazooka barfing because it did, you kind of like, if you are ill, for example, you want the professionals around you to be, you know, to be professional at all times. Like they've seen worse. This is part of it. They support you. I appreciated in terms of like real pull back the curtain honesty that Langdon was super grossed out and couldn't hide it. You know what I mean? Like that he wasn't like, I see. I'm sorry this has happened to you, sir. He was like, that's gnarly. I will never eat that again.

51:19Chris Ryan:Put a pin in it there. I guess I mean, like baby Jane Doe. Yeah, do it. That's become a thing.

51:24Andy Greenwald:I haven't really been following the story, but people have been praising as they should the great Catherine Lanassa.

51:29Chris Ryan:Yeah.

51:29Andy Greenwald:But then didn't she say that she was like studying mayor of Easttown? But it's like they're in Pittsburgh.

51:33Chris Ryan:I don't know what Dana's, she made fun of Philadelphia in that. Like, remember last season, wasn't there like a whole like crowd scene and she's just like, what do you think we're in Philadelphia or something?

51:42Andy Greenwald:And she allows the prisoner to stay because he used to work at a bar where she had her first kiss. She is a yinzer, as they say. But you don't think she's doing a Pittsburgh accent? I don't know that she is, but I thought that was a little, baby Jane Doe sounds super Philly to me.

51:57Chris Ryan:I gotta say, I've never spent any time in Pittsburgh, so I don't know the accent. You haven't spent any time? No.

52:02Andy Greenwald:Really great city. Okay. I'm not saying this just to appeal to the crew.

52:08Chris Ryan:I know, but you have more of a wider swath of Pennsylvania under your resume. I don't. I'm just like a Philly guy. You're kind of a coastal guy. Yeah.

52:16Andy Greenwald:You got to get out in the streets and see the real deal of America. Like Western Massachusetts? That's a little far.

52:22Chris Ryan:Yeah, but I did that.

52:24Andy Greenwald:What did you think?

52:25Chris Ryan:It was awesome.

52:26Andy Greenwald:It's beautiful out there. Did you see any people?

52:28Chris Ryan:I saw some people.

52:29Andy Greenwald:Did you? You know I did. The dark hearts? I know, man. when I was in college. But what did you do in Western Massachusetts? You're alluding to... I was dating a girl. In Western Massachusetts? Yeah. Yeah. Is this the After Dark segment? I don't know.

52:42Chris Ryan:Let's go into After Dark. I dated a girl. She went to Mount Holyoke.

52:46Andy Greenwald:I don't remember this at all.

52:48Chris Ryan:Well, maybe you and I weren't cool yet. Maybe this is pre-us.

52:51Andy Greenwald:Well, no. So I'm glad we're talking about this because was this like circa like 97?

52:57Chris Ryan:96. 95. No, 95. 96. Because this is a thing. This is pre-us. So it's like, it's weird.

53:02Andy Greenwald:Because I was thinking about anything right now. I was thinking about how in summer of 97, I went, I did like the, oh, I'm going to go to Europe with a Eurail pass and like went to some cities. And I was like, hey, why didn't we, why didn't we do that trip? That would have been fun. Because I probably couldn't hang because you're like this. No, 97, I was still pretty PG-13. But the question is, what's shocking considering the, the complete like web of interconnected life that we now share. Yeah. I probably didn't call you. Like, I feel like what was our, what was our, you didn't figure into that trip in a way that is surprising to me.

53:37Chris Ryan:I moved to Boston in 96. Yeah. So, 96 fall. And you were driving up to Holyoke. No. I was driving up to Holyoke when I was still living in Philadelphia.

53:48Andy Greenwald:Oh, well, that's a whole. But,

53:50Chris Ryan:when I moved to Boston in 96, I was already, we were talking on the phone.

53:54Andy Greenwald:We were talking on the phone, but then was I like, some news, friend. I will be leaving the continental United States for a period of three weeks. I don't remember you going anywhere. Was that in the summer?

54:02Chris Ryan:Summer, yeah. What were you doing summer? I was hanging out by then.

54:05Andy Greenwald:Hell yeah.

54:06Chris Ryan:I think that was my first Boston summer.

54:08Andy Greenwald:That was pretty cool. How would you define a Boston summer?

54:10Chris Ryan:Just smoking cigs and working at the record store. Oh. Yeah. And going to see bands.

54:15Andy Greenwald:You did that in Boston winters, too. Yeah. It's like that's kind of an evergreen.

54:19Chris Ryan:But I didn't have school. You know, I didn't have to worry about school. Were you worried about school a lot? Not much. Not enough. Yeah. Look at you now. Um... anything else you wanted to get off your chest?

54:29Andy Greenwald:I felt like you had a couple cultural takes you wanted to fire off.

54:32Chris Ryan:I just wanted to say that there's a record coming out in nine hours. Cold to the Touch, the new album by Angel Dust, comes out. Tell me. I saw Angel Dust in Boston last two weekends ago at the Something in the Way Fest. And it's one of the best live shows you can spend money to see. And it's kind of a definitely hardcore rooted band because Justice, the singer for Angel Dust, was also in Trapped Under Ice. but I would also say that if you are a fan of like I honestly for me it gives me the same feeling if not sonically the same thing as like the punk garage aggression of hot snakes but it's also very tuneful um and it's got like some like hyper aggressive power pop moves in it too too so

55:16Andy Greenwald:it's it's just a great band you want to cut and paste that onto the sub stack recs you're going

55:20Chris Ryan:to text me yeah sure sure I wouldn't mind that um but that's that's my big rec for Friday when it drops in a couple hours. And then that's it. That's it? Yeah, reading-wise, I think True Detective Season 2, I think I told you this, is sending me back to Elroy. And I haven't read James Elroy sincerely probably since American Tabloid Cold 6000. So I went back and started reading Big Nowhere and it's fucking good. In the LA books, he was really, really in his bag. But I feel like that's a little aggro for you. no no I've

55:57Andy Greenwald:I've I had you heard me on last week's podcast I'm much more politicized than I used to be

56:01Chris Ryan:not politicized but did you read like LA Confidential and Big Nowhere and Blushing the whole time White Jazz yeah

56:07Andy Greenwald:no I think it's good to revisit books if you're not like the worst thing that has it can happen and it's happened to me is you're like that was one of the most important books I've ever read I love that book and then you go back and you're like oof yeah these types of writers have usually you know what's also a tough feeling

56:23Chris Ryan:is if you pick up an old Elmore Leonard or James Alroy book and you're like, boy, this is like reading it the first time. I don't remember any of this. And then you get 180 pages in and you're like, shit, I remember everything that's about to happen. Like you basically, it hits you like your brain unlocks.

56:38Andy Greenwald:Yeah, but then isn't it just a glide path all the way to the end then? Cause you're not worried about - Yeah, kind of, it is. Plot or story anymore.

56:43Chris Ryan:And you can actually be like, oh, I remember what happens here. And I can just give my head five pages if you want to. That's it, that's all I got. You got anything?

56:52Andy Greenwald:Music, books? New Rap Boys record is really good. You like them? Chicago band I do really enjoyable I haven't spent a ton of time on them singing to an empty chair really strong album and then I'm also like I'm really I'm really spending too much time maybe for my age range in my demo with like Fake Mink and SD Kid and all these British rappers oh wow really yeah a lot a lot I'm really really driving around to it

57:18Chris Ryan:you listening to it while you write what are you doing

57:20Andy Greenwald:well so as you know the NFL season is over thus I have nothing to listen to anymore Also, I guess Sheil, God bless him, is sick, so there's no Philly special this week.

57:28Chris Ryan:This is the best time of the year because everybody's competitive again. It's like, now you can start talking about Clint Kubiak and his vision for the Raiders.

57:35Andy Greenwald:Yeah, but I'm saying the podcasts have quieted. No, but like, this week.

57:39Chris Ryan:Yes, I know what you mean. I know what you mean.

57:41Andy Greenwald:So I'm listening. Yeah, there's the new Fake Mink record, The Boy Who Cried Terrified. It's really good. There's a burial sample on the last track. You might enjoy it. Going back to this SD Kid record from last year. Really enjoy that.

57:50Chris Ryan:He played or is playing LA this week?

57:53Andy Greenwald:Oh, yeah. I'm going with the homies. I just didn't know if you wanted in on that.

57:58Chris Ryan:ST Kid is a rapper from Liverpool.

58:00Andy Greenwald:Some people thought it was Timothee Chalamet. Yes.

58:02Chris Ryan:And Chalamet's in town.

58:03Andy Greenwald:And Chalamet dropped bars on the 4Raws remix. I don't know if you spent time with that. I didn't.

58:08Chris Ryan:It's very enjoyable. Okay, I'll go check this stuff out. That's really good.

58:11Andy Greenwald:But also, you know another record I love that my kids really don't love? You put me onto this is Bass Victim.

58:17Chris Ryan:Oh, yeah.

58:18Andy Greenwald:I love that album. Yeah. And that... That record's really good. The record's called Bass Punk 2. And I have had that playing more than twice while picking up my children from school. And they're like, turn this off. Instantly. Yeah. Instantly. They really like...

58:39Chris Ryan:Do you think you're the only guy in line to pick up kids at that school listening to Bass Victim?

58:43Andy Greenwald:I want to be very clear about something. Every single electric vehicle in line to pick up children from the progressive Los Angeles school is the fucking SD kid of his own life. Yeah. Inside of those, that climate-controlled box. Yeah, it's a dad hat and a guy listening to. So everyone's wearing an open button-down shirt and New Balance sneakers being like, they don't know how cool I am. Yeah. Like that one gift of the guy at the party, and then everyone at the party's like, we're actually at a party? Go back to the comic book store, you fucking dork. But for those beautiful last few moments of solitude, I'm like, still got it.

59:20Andy Greenwald:I could get a URL pass.

59:22Chris Ryan:Yeah. I could go. See ya.

59:24Andy Greenwald:You're really too eager for that.

59:26Chris Ryan:Thanks to Kaia. Thanks to Kaia. We'll be back on Monday, President's Day. Salute.

59:31Andy Greenwald:We won't be celebrating that this year.

59:33Chris Ryan:But we will be talking about A Night of the Seven Kingdoms and Industry on Monday. And who knows? Maybe there's some other stuff out there in culture that will hit.

59:40Andy Greenwald:Luckily, my kids have a four-day weekend. So we can really, really drill down into what's wrong with their music taste. Talk to you guys on Monday.

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