‘Wonder Man’ Co-Creator on the Show’s Origins, Near Cancellation, and the Status of the ‘Community’ Movie. Plus, ‘The Pitt’ S2E8.

6:08Andy Greenwald:The story is despicable. The entire thing is gross, loathsome, and awful, and I wish it would all go away. I think that when we when we talk about industry, we often talk about how like the financial, the specifics of the financials are kind of opaque to us because we're not exactly quants, but also kind of obscure the deeper emotional cost of things. And so having this conversation, you know, paramount, like just throwing more and more money at this, the same week that Warner Brothers Discovery announces that it lost$250 million in the quarter in which all these bids were made. Yes. Sort of underscores the galaxy brain, what is this even anymore?

6:50Andy Greenwald:Of the entire affair, I have to say, like, I am not painting Ted Sarandos as a hero or as some, like, you know, valiant champion of the old studio model that kept people, you know, in pensions for decades. But it is a catastrophic outcome, I think, if the Ellisons win this, purely because they are right-wing bullies and the government is lined up to give them whatever they want because they need to shove more things into their already fat gobs. Like, I think that's really chilling. It's really disturbing. I'm not innocent or immune to the way the world actually works. Also, I'm of relatively good health and I run regularly.

7:30Andy Greenwald:And I rarely go swimming or go above the third floor of buildings. That said, you know, so it's, it sucks. And this is a gut conversation. This is not me saying, I hope it doesn't delay Night of the Seven Kingdoms. You know what I mean?

7:44Chris Ryan:I mean, that is interesting to think about the downstream ramifications of a prolonged negotiation. I don't know what kind of deadlines are next or, you know, there was like a seven day something kind of interrogation of the Paramount bid that seems to have been completed. I assume Netflix will make a new bid. I don't know how you can continue to just be like, we're just going to constantly reopening the bidding. I'm not mad. I'm not Sean.

8:08Andy Greenwald:It will really well for David Zaslav.

8:09Chris Ryan:I'm sure it will.

8:10Andy Greenwald:In the sense that he is, the thing that he has is now the proxy fight for our politics.

8:17Chris Ryan:You bring up a good point about Ted Sarandos, though. Obviously, there are affiliations between The Ringer and Netflix. I suppose it's worth mentioning. It doesn't necessarily mean that, in fact, I can quite clearly state I have not met Ted Sarandos.

8:32Andy Greenwald:Also, my half of the pod is going to Amazon Prime. That's right. Sorry to break news. It's going to be a split screen. you have to tune into both services but the negotiation window

8:40Chris Ryan:it would be awesome if those both ran on completely different CMSs and you just have to like

8:44Andy Greenwald:one headphone one and one headphone the other

8:46Chris Ryan:later in the week I want to see what Chris said when I logged into Netflix

8:50Andy Greenwald:but there is like an Anton Chigurh

8:53Chris Ryan:kind of thing going on here where it's like if the rule that you followed you if the rule that you followed brought you to this of what use was the rule you know like the whole idea that like Netflix up until six months ago was the extinction level event facing the industry as we know it. And now it's like the only thing that will save us from becoming North Korean television. Yeah, right. So that's all good. That's pretty cool. It feels great.

9:18Andy Greenwald:It all feels great. This is also the week where all of the Republican attorneys general wrote a letter saying that the Netflix merger would be ruinous to their constituents, which by the way, guys, let me speak to all the Republican attorneys general. You're crushing it. You're doing great. You are really looking out for your constituents and we at The Watch appreciate it. I'm sorry, we at Amazon Prime's half of The Watch appreciate it. President G over there might have another opinion.

9:44Chris Ryan:Do you want to get into the pit? Was there anything else popping around that you thought was interesting?

9:48Andy Greenwald:I don't think so other than the fact that my rewatch of The Office with my children has reached what I believe to be the zenith of The Office. Do you remember the Michael Scott Paper Company arc? And I just want to say that like the joke in which they are doing deliveries themselves at five in the morning because they can't afford a delivery person and the vehicle they got is a disused Korean church van and every time they stop to deliver paper, an elderly Korean woman gets onto the van and just sits there. That joke has lived rent-free in my head for 15 years and it still hits.

10:23Chris Ryan:Are you going to do the entire thing?

10:25Andy Greenwald:Oh, do you think I'll just...

10:26Chris Ryan:Like into Spader country?

10:28Andy Greenwald:Well, I would say... I can make... First of all, I could make any pronouncement that I want And I'm not really driving this disused Korean church van that is family time. So I think they will start to lose interest at a certain point, particularly as the show might. I feel like we're building like the show itself was up to the Jim Pam wedding, the return of Holly. And then I feel like they might be good.

10:49Chris Ryan:Yeah. Okay.

10:49Andy Greenwald:And then are they too young for 30 Rock? Probably.

10:52Chris Ryan:I think they're probably too young for 30 Rock. They've done Parks.

10:54Andy Greenwald:Oh, yeah. Parks, big hit.

10:56Chris Ryan:They done Boardwalk Empire?

10:57Andy Greenwald:They did, but they didn't like it after Michael Pitt was written off the show. Sure. Because he's like the youth character that they could relate to.

11:07Chris Ryan:This episode is brought to you by Volkswagen. It can be hard to do your own thing when everyone else is following everyone else, but that's what some of the best films are about. An outcast striving to make their own way in the world. And this is your sign to be that outcast. From us, from VW, from the other outcasts out there, take a chance. Make the most of every day and don't be afraid to veer off course every now and then because if you don't do it now, then when? Learn more at vw.com. Well, since we have such a full show today with Wonder Man stuff with Andrew Guest, why don't we get into the pit?

11:42Chris Ryan:Let's do it. I think you could feel maybe if you were listening to us last week, like a return to like core principles for me where I was just like, man, I really, I really love this show. This show is one of the most like empathetic depictions of human beings everybody is given dignity in their own way this was that but like a little slower and so I have nothing bad to say about this episode but it was just like I do want to note that this season seems to be doing some different stuff with time which obviously like the thing that I would probably associate with this show the most is using the one shift one hour of a shift per episode to make you feel like your heart is racing, to make you feel like the tempo is just, you know, blazing out of control.

12:34Chris Ryan:And certainly during the Pit Fest episodes last year, that was the case. As they have gone analog on this season, as the, you know, the blackout or the cyber attack happened to the other hospitals and that they've shut down the Pit's computer services, I've noted that they then spent more or less two-thirds of this episode with two patients. They've really experimented in little ways within the pit way of storytelling. How long do you want to spend with the overweight gentleman who needs a very specific kind of intubation before he can get a scan? How much do you want to spend with Dana and the rape victim?

13:18Chris Ryan:What can we do? And also keeping tabs on these other people. And I can feel with those other people, the emergence of very big storylines coming to conclusion soon. So I was just curious whether you had noted that, like, have you felt that time, the way that they're messing with time a little bit?

13:34Andy Greenwald:Well, yes. And the sense that the crisis is now apparent. I mean, I think more things, more shoes will drop, but like there is still a sense of deliberation that we can still pause. We can introduce new characters, spend time with them, treat them in a certain way, educate the audience about how it's going to work. At times that can border on the almost Simpsons-esque, like the pharmacist who's just standing in the corner being like, I'm here to help, you know, as if she's been there the whole time. I did notice some things with time. I don't know if I'm accurate about this, but I feel like there have been one or two moments at least that stood out this season where they've asked what time it is.

14:07Andy Greenwald:And a character has said it's 1230, but that doesn't align perfectly with the minute length of the episode, which made me think that they might be playing a little bit with multiple 1230. like we're in it's 1230 in rooms so that when they leave they leave at the same time it's not sequential

14:24Chris Ryan:is Robert Downey still Tony Stark in one of those rooms or

14:26Andy Greenwald:well weirdly John Slattery is no longer playing older Howard Stark they are letting Dominic Cooper just play the part sure

14:33Chris Ryan:I think destined to I told Kevin

14:37Andy Greenwald:respect Slattery

14:38Chris Ryan:I said to Kevin I said Kevin listen

14:40Andy Greenwald:you're making one mistake um yeah I but overall like this is still my favorite thing to watch every week and we can get into some of the specifics of the characters. I did want to start with a slight, not a criticism, but I noted with interest that after Dr. Al-Hashimi's slight humanization last week, she was back this week talking like me on the playground in 1984 saying stuff like, our IT department has been given 24 hours to bolster our cyber defenses now follow me back to Cybertron like genuinely that is some shit

15:17Chris Ryan:in the playground do that wearing a scream mask with Sean in about an hour I think that uh her character remains I I thought that her aggressive treatment course with the suddenly blind woman was interesting so there's a couple of things I think we're monitoring right like Like there's the really, really, I wouldn't say overly complicated, but complicated charting system, which has now come into play that involves diagrams, multiple like signatures are needed. Copies are needed. Larry and Antoine. Larry and Antoine are essentially like the hard drive of the entire medical profession.

15:54Andy Greenwald:There's a short order cook bell that's ordering tuna melts or prescriptions.

15:58Chris Ryan:Dane is out. Dane is in. Dane is back. Princess is doing this. it just seems like there's they've already had a situation where I believe Santos' patient was nearly misdiagnosed with something because of the generative AI that they were using. Now that we're back on old hard copy and handwriting. Faxes and candlelight. Who knows what's gonna happen. Alashimi's prescription of this rather intense medication that could kill you but could stop the vision loss is worth keeping an eye on. And then there are some that I think are coming to a kind of conclusion. Like, I feel like the deposition that Mel is supposed to do feels like it was really more of an opportunity for multiple people to tell Mel that she is a special doctor, you know, is a special practitioner of medicine.

16:49Andy Greenwald:Of all the things, the fact that like, I mean, I don't know. I try to avoid dalliances with the legal community whenever possible. But like, do they really schedule depositions on federal holidays often?

16:59Chris Ryan:Not Republicans, Attorney Generals.

17:01Andy Greenwald:I was going to say, maybe under this Justice Department they do. But yeah, right.

17:05Chris Ryan:Right.

17:06Andy Greenwald:Okay.

17:07Chris Ryan:What are some, I mean, I have all the cases if you want to go through them.

17:10Andy Greenwald:I think the al-Hashimi point I want to make is just like, it's a struggle for me because it's one thing to be like a proponent of generative AI in the workplace and then another thing to be like standing for the IT department's bulwark defenses. Like, relax. You know, you don't Are you paid for by big tech? Like, I don't understand why she's rooting for only the computer systems on all sides of it.

17:34Chris Ryan:Yes, I think she's also doing some of the things that Robbie used to toot his own horn about, which is like this personal investment in doctors. She's like talking with Mohan about where she might want to do her fellowship. She does have that moment, that's true. I think she's been much more, with the exception of her, like, kind of passing comment to Santos that completely spun her out about, like, you got to do your paperwork, you're going to have to redo your year. and now Santos is like, well, I'm fucking dead then.

18:00Andy Greenwald:That's how I respond.

18:01Chris Ryan:I think Alishima has done a good job kind of connecting with both patients and doctors as well as bringing about Claude in the workplace. Yeah, exactly. That's her.

18:10Andy Greenwald:Let me introduce you to my colleague. Dr. Claude. Dr. Claude. Let's see now. Just a room. That is like a Philip K.

18:18Chris Ryan:Dick novel. You know what I mean?

18:19Andy Greenwald:Do you, I got to ask you about the treatment that she recommends for the eye stroke.

18:25Chris Ryan:Oh, would I do it if it was like, it's like a 5 % death chance, but otherwise you can get your eyes back. I've seen a lot of movies. You could say I've seen them all. You've re-watched them as well. I mean, I was re-watching Scream, and I was like, I don't really know if I need to watch Scream again in my life. I probably will in like a year or two. Sure. But I was thinking about this the other day, vision or hearing. I think I might be getting towards vision.

18:50Andy Greenwald:You'd be okay losing it?

18:51Chris Ryan:Well, because I could still pod. I could hear you, brother. You know what I mean?

18:54Andy Greenwald:Wow. This is an incredible take.

18:57Chris Ryan:First of all, the blind podcaster.

19:00Andy Greenwald:Don't tell Ted Sarandos this because you're basically saying that it's a audio medium only.

19:06Chris Ryan:No, I'm just saying you can film me if I'm blind. True. But I can't hear you if I'm deaf.

19:11Andy Greenwald:Wow. So you're willing to sacrifice your peepers just for your pal. Yeah. Just to keep this going. That's beautiful. That's not the choice this woman has. This woman has a choice between reduced vision in one of two eyes. Yes. Or death.

19:24Chris Ryan:No, but it's not percentages wise. It's not the same thing.

19:27Andy Greenwald:The speed with which she is like, give me the magic pill is wild. The only thing I would do quickly in that moment is start Googling eye patches because I'm not taking the meds. Like, it's fine. You could look pretty cool with an eye patch. You know, you can work it. That can be your whole thing. Like that guy you like, the representative Dan Crenshaw. That's his whole thing.

19:52Chris Ryan:Yeah.

19:52Andy Greenwald:You know? Yeah. Eye patch.

19:53Chris Ryan:You know, some people might not know that's a joke and they might think I am supportive of Dan Crenshaw.

19:58Andy Greenwald:What does he ever do to you? He's just fighting for his constituents.

20:04Chris Ryan:Do you know what I mean? I do. I mean, I honestly think that when you're, I think it's like they're just being straight with you. Look, these are the numbers. Yeah, but she was wild. She's reckless. Yeah. Well, she wants to be able to see. You can see with one eye. It's really hard. Is it? Yeah, I got a weak eye. And this one's not as good. if I lost vision in this eye, I might as well lose both. Wouldn't the other one become stronger? No, you're not a bat. I'm Daredevil. I'm Matt Murdock. Okay. I did have a question about the new analog system that they are using. Do you think this would have been an opportunity for the currently unemployed offensive football genius, Chip Kelly, to bring back the showing pictures of Chuck Norris and Bugs Bunny on the sideline?

20:49Chris Ryan:I remember that. Remember that when he was coaching Mike Vick and it would just be like, it's Joel McHale. And it would be like, ah, yes, sweep right.

20:56Andy Greenwald:I think, first of all, it's really nice the way you are pushing this podcast towards the advocacy of total employment, that you want anyone who recently lost their jobs to do to AI or to just not really being good anymore.

21:10Chris Ryan:I just think he's been misused. Chip Kelly, you still believe in Chip.

21:14Andy Greenwald:Yeah, I think he's a revolutionary. You've never been more all in than you were in 2012.

21:19Chris Ryan:In some ways, none of these Super Bowls matter because they didn't come with chip.

21:23Andy Greenwald:I thought you were going to make the comment. The moment the Washington Philly game,

21:28Chris Ryan:Mike Vick, chip ball unleashed, is the greatest 27 minutes of my life is watching Michael Vick against Washington going full chip.

21:39Andy Greenwald:And you every year mark the anniversary of that day by holding up a placard of some carrots. Yes. Yes. And birthday cake.

21:48Chris Ryan:I'm sorry. I'm not trying to get away from the pit. No, I thought you,

21:50Andy Greenwald:I'm really interested that you went to Chip Kelly as an analog hero as opposed to like the dude from Stereolab or something that you thought there would be an opportunity.

21:59Chris Ryan:Actually, you know what? Chip Kelly and Stereolab probably lands about exactly the same for our listeners.

22:03Andy Greenwald:I would just like to turn to all the other 40 something men wearing sports hat and band shirt and say, welcome, brothers. And I do mean brothers.

22:10Chris Ryan:The 47 ,000 people in the world. The 47 ,000, 47 ,000 girls. And Leticia Sadie is. This is perfect. I wanted to talk a little bit about Roxy, who is the terminal cancer patient. Her parents show up. Parents show up. John Goetz is the father. Great character actor, has appeared in several Fincher films. This is obviously building up to something very, I think, emotionally cathartic and momentous, at least in my estimation. It seems like they are allowing the ER to be used as a kind of hospice center for the end of this woman's life while they wait for her room upstairs. Any thoughts on about this storyline and how they're kind of playing it out?

22:54Andy Greenwald:Well, I thought what was interesting actually was the way the most definitive puzzle piece of the story was delivered almost casually by Robbie. All of this was building to, I think it's clear this is a dignity of dying, right to die, hospice care type scenario and the pit to comment on it with its usual sort of compassion and gravitas. But it built to the thing of like, can we give her more pain meds? And Robbie suggesting, I wrote the word down, but I don't have it right in front of me about the contradiction of doctoral something.

23:29Chris Ryan:Yes, it's like the paradox of effect or something like that. or I can't remember what it is, but it's like -

23:34Andy Greenwald:The doctorate double effect. Right. We treat pain, and if in so doing, there's a negative effect, so be it. In some cases, death could be the best outcome. Yes. And that's almost tossed off at the end of the episode, but that's quite heavy. Quite. And, yeah, I mean, they don't - Going back to your first point about time, one of the more interesting things about the show is how it - what it pays attention to and for how long it pays attention. And they're just such experts at deploying that attention. so that we leave the apparently simple resolution of the ASL patient's storyline, which, by the way, I relate.

24:12Andy Greenwald:Yeah, we're close to home. Yeah.

24:13Chris Ryan:She essentially is having like a full body meltdown because she looks at her computer screen at the wrong angle.

24:19Andy Greenwald:Yes. Welcome to WFH life. But my point being, the amount of time spent on that for that seemingly benign outcome made me think that, and the way that she reacted to the pain shot made me think, oh my God, there's more to it. Santos is messing up because one of the underplayed cards so far in the series is youthful fuck-ups. It is a teaching hospital. It's youthful fuck-ups.

24:42Chris Ryan:It's also people being stretched too thin and doing these things in extraordinarily difficult circumstances, which you're right. There is a little bit of like, every doctor save Langdon is pretty much like doing their best all the time. And it's perfect. Yeah.

24:55Andy Greenwald:As batting a thousand. So I thought that the introduction of, the doubt is always going to exist. and it was well played in that scene. And in an episode where we are spending as much time with that patient as we are with Roxy, it's telling us something and it's also doing some artful misdirection. In terms of like inevitably someone's going to screw up, I thought it was played really well in this episode with the guy who Javadi and Ogilvy thought had the bubonic plague. Yes. But in fact had something that it was quite terrifying.

25:23Chris Ryan:This is not something I knew I needed to worry about. No. This man has insane blisters all over his legs. legs, all of his body. His face? And they are like seriously considering that it could be, you know, some real 12th century shit happening to him. And apparently it's an allergic reaction to cutting limes in the sun. That's a pretty common place to cut limes.

25:44Andy Greenwald:You... You're out the BBQ? People don't know this about you. You live every summer like you're Spuds McKenzie. You are out there. You're partying. You're pouring drinks. That's right. You're kind of a dog.

25:55Chris Ryan:Me and the Republican attorneys, we're all just out there.

25:57Andy Greenwald:Fellas, who's our enemy this week? is it the immigrants or is it sharia law yeah anyway the yeah so that was appalling but um but but again to the credit of the show everything is deployed with some intention it is a uh oh wow gross didn't know about that it is a oh are these student doctors gonna fuck up and it is also a kind of a no this one you're safe in this one it's just a quick resolution but the big one's coming

26:26Chris Ryan:Photographic memories. Have you ever met somebody who has one? In this episode, Joy, who I believe at the end of last episode, is like, I have a photographic memory, so I remember the board. No, it's this episode.

26:37Andy Greenwald:This episode begins with, Whitaker says, I have a picture, and it's like the pictures I would take of a cat. Right. It's like, this is a wonderful image. It's just blurred.

26:49Chris Ryan:Joy, from memory, recites the entire board, and no one in it. Of all the things where you're like, oh, I wonder if that's a screw up. I don't think Joey screwed up at all. No. I've never met anybody who's like, I have a photographic memory. I can just do it. You never met Chip Kelly? Well, it wasn't photographic. It was purely creative. Image-based and creativity. No, I don't. Is that real? Well, I've heard about like, Kieran Culkin can like look at the page once and do the entire scene.

27:17Andy Greenwald:Yeah, because he makes it up.

27:19Chris Ryan:Be that as it may.

27:21Andy Greenwald:He's just like, what the fuck, man? fucking fuck. Just like it was actually we're doing Shakespeare.

27:25Chris Ryan:Bro, it's Hamlet. Yeah. I just, it's interesting to see. I guess I'm sure that there are people who are really like, I can look at something and it is seared into memory. I have a hard time remembering the patients' names from episodes of The Pit that I watched last night.

27:41Andy Greenwald:Let's lift up the fact.

27:42Chris Ryan:I do remember almost every word to Illmatic though, so it's okay. Okay, you're fine.

27:45Andy Greenwald:So you are Joy for your joy. Yeah. I was going to say, we should do more to, this show is lifting up members of the photographic memory community. You know, and I think that's beautiful. Their stories have gone untold, but remembered for far too long.

27:59Chris Ryan:Any other cases that you're, we have blisters.

28:02Andy Greenwald:Do photographic memories work? Sorry, I've got to focus now. Do they work? Photographic memories suggest that she sees something and it's as if a photograph was taken in her mind. If it's not just photograph, if you have like a videographic memory and you remember everything you've ever seen.

28:18Chris Ryan:I have never more wanted to be on Rogan and be like, Jamie, pull that up. What's photographic memory really do? You know what I mean? Because I have no idea. Is it like she glanced at it and it's in her brain? Right. Or did she think about it, remember it, and now it isn't flying out the way the plot of this show sometimes does?

28:34Andy Greenwald:Because respectfully, I remember nothing from most of everything we've ever watched at this point. It is just Swiss cheese.

28:43Chris Ryan:I had this issue the other day when somebody was asking me about Fargo's season one and two. And I was like, I know who is on it. I have no memory of what it was about

28:51Andy Greenwald:I can do better with those I think Kieran Culkin was I believe in the beginning of season 2 wasn't he was he are you being serious well hold on I think he was this is good stuff yeah I think this is good yeah he was okay well that's the end of today's podcast sorry all this was to say that we would be this is us working through it we would be put out of a job if there was a videographic we're going to be put out of a job

29:16Chris Ryan:I assure you

29:17Andy Greenwald:we are going to be out of our jobs welcome to our new host Claude. Claude, what did you think of Fargo season two?

29:22Chris Ryan:Kieran Culkin was mesmerizing.

29:25Andy Greenwald:As Rye Gerhardt.

29:28Chris Ryan:Any, the overweight gentleman.

29:30Andy Greenwald:Oh, right. So this is what I want to talk about.

29:32Chris Ryan:Was the sort of main event. Yeah.

29:35Andy Greenwald:I, it's hard to pivot from AI Claude doing Kieran Culkin jokes about Fargo season two, but no, that's the, this is the, this is the medium we've chosen. It's an imperfect medium and we are imperfect vessels. I was blown away by this storyline both for the way that it was presented but again just the reinforcement of what this show is about and what it does and what makes it special because in the same way that The Wire was about systemic rot and Mad Men and Sopranos in varying degrees are about like male ambition in the modern world this show is about human dignity and that is a tough log line There's a reason why a lot of shows or movies don't dwell on it because it's a little bit soft or it's a little bit aspirational or it's a little bit fairytale almost and lacks some of the necessary, you know, cynicism or jadedness or wit or drama or whatever.

30:30Andy Greenwald:The medical drama is the right place for this. And I found it very moving to have that. I find it very moving to have it reinforced week to week, both within the artistic successes of the show and in the world that we live in.

30:41Chris Ryan:I think they're doing a really good job where the patients are going to come and go by necessity. How the doctors and the students interact with those patients are the places where the characters really come out. And you can knock the pit for its moments of saying like, well, do you know that nurses are attacked at 3 % higher rates than anyone else in any other job in this country? it's like, yeah, like there's going to be exposition dumps. But the real thing to watch for is like Ogilvy initially being flippant about this guy, but then obviously betraying some of his own kind of the way he thinks about the world to be like, I'm only asking these questions because I actually know where he needs to go to get the right treatment.

31:28Chris Ryan:You know, like, and Ogilvy is like, they're sort of moving his character around. They've sort of moved Joy's character around. And I think, yeah, even Robbie's somewhat more like, I'm trying to punch the clock here, day. You can tell he's relating to patients in a different way, slightly more frustrated. A few less like, let's go sit in the family room and have a long talk about who you are and what's going on. And yeah, I think this season is distinctive from the first season in some really great ways in that sense.

32:01Andy Greenwald:do you where is your personal limit for like were you more upset at the uh implication that abbott was inserting his fingers to mid-digit up this man's nose and down his trachea or when the

32:17Chris Ryan:woman's tongue is pulled out and sutured tongue was fine you're cool with that i thought so yeah abbott i mean anything abbott does i'm cool with he could do it to you just show up in that camo

32:26Andy Greenwald:and you're like, open up. No problem. In a way, it was kind of a reset because Dana was a little bit off board. I guess we should talk about that.

32:34Chris Ryan:This is an extraordinary two-episode arc. She's going to win another Emmy. It's just been beautiful. A billion percent.

32:39Andy Greenwald:That moment when she's like, I'm really glad we were here today. Like the way the camera, the camera loves her for good reason. She is an exceptional actor for the screen.

32:48Chris Ryan:Yes, and you've got a very beloved, talented performer, but the first season was her almost... overachieving given the material, getting punched aside. I think that this was very much a knowing kind of like, we want to give her something to do individually this season. And her bathing the body of Louis and being a sane nurse for the rape victim has been quite a run of episodes for Catherwood and NASA.

33:20Andy Greenwald:And again, the way that a show this nimble can be responsive in real time to audience engagement with it. So this season is being broken, written, and shot while the first season is having this incredible effect and going under a victory lap and Noah Wiley and Catherine Lanasa are winning Emmys. It builds to essentially the midpoint of the season. This is the eighth episode, I think. And it ends with Robbie and Dana next to each other, partners in the opposite of crime, saying, how are we going to get through this mess?

33:55Chris Ryan:Medicine. Partners in medicine.

33:57Andy Greenwald:Okay. I like the opposite of crime. I guess that's the Netflix way to do it. How are we going to get through this mess? I was going to ask you. And then here we are ready to start the second half of the season.

34:08Chris Ryan:A little disappointed to hear that Jack's going to ride in the ambulance with that guy and go take a nap. I hope he doesn't take three hours off or something.

34:16Andy Greenwald:Wait, who's going where? Jack is... Oh, Jack Abbott. Yeah, he's going. Yeah. Did you feel like... It's interesting that like, I believe he's main cast this season. He was obviously a big hit last season. And they knew they wanted to in the way they always like to slightly zag. They were like, last season he came in at the end when his shift was supposedly, he was there at the beginning when his shift was ending and he's there when his shift is starting again. Now he returns as the star of your favorite unmade Michael Mann film and then leaves again for a little bit. Yes. To come crashing back.

34:47Chris Ryan:I wonder whether or not the one upside of Paramount buying Warner Brothers would be Y colon Marshalls colon the pit colon Jack Abbott colon Casey because then we get Casey from Yellowstone and Jack Abbott together and one's a medic and one's a Marshall and they're just driving around Montana and Wyoming and trying to help people

35:07Andy Greenwald:can I make another pitch so it's Y colon Marshalls colon the pit colon Jack colon Casey and it's about Dr. Jack Abbott, SWAT Team Warrior, Emergency Surgeon, and Casey Bloys, Chairman of Entertainment for HBO, trying to navigate the new reality in a fractured media landscape.

35:25Chris Ryan:I think that one has it equally, really, it would probably be the exact same audience.

35:29Andy Greenwald:Pick them. They're both going to be good shows.

35:31Chris Ryan:You've got an interview coming up with Andrew Guest, the co-creator of Wonder Man. We're going to be back on Sunday night with our interview with Conrad K. and Mickey Down, the creators of Industry. As the Industry season finale concludes, you can come and listen to us and watch us talking with Mickey and Conrad and sharing some of our initial thoughts on the finale. I think we'll go deeper next Thursday.

35:51Andy Greenwald:Because that's our Monday show. That is our Monday show. What are you going to do with your day off?

35:57Chris Ryan:I think I have to do Sicario Live on Netflix. You think you do? I mean, I know I do. You haven't been asked. I know I do. Sicario Live on Netflix at 6 p.m. Eastern.

36:06Andy Greenwald:Blink twice if you're being included in CR Month. I'm in CR Month.

36:09Chris Ryan:I mean, it's, you know, I'm definitely a paid consultant on CR Month.

36:15Andy Greenwald:It's not a labor of love.

36:19Chris Ryan:Thanks to Kai and Kai, Sarah. Thanks to everybody for helping out today. We will be back on Sunday night and then we'll talk to you next Thursday.

36:25Andy Greenwald:Happy first day of CR month.

36:28Chris Ryan:Thought sweet green was just salads? Think again. There's a new way to do sweet green. Wrapped and ready. These handheld wraps pack bold flavor and 40 plus grams of protein into something hearty, satisfying and built for life on the go. from craveable sauces to satisfying textures. They're designed to keep you going without slowing you down. So put that fork down. Try the new wraps today in app or at order.sweetgreen.com. Available at participating locations only.

36:59Andy Greenwald:We're leaving today and entering a world of Mickey Mouse waving, princess meeting and greeting,

37:06Andrew Guest:lightsaber clashing,

37:08Andy Greenwald:the Twilight Zone Tower of Terror dropping, Banshee flying! Space Mountain launching! Galaxy rewinding! What's the whole death of galaxy rewinding?

37:19Chris Ryan:Fireworks igniting!

37:21Andy Greenwald:World of Other Worlds. For whatever you love, infinite worlds await at the most magical place on Earth. Walt Disney World Resort. We all have that dream trip we've been wishing we could go on. But too often, life, or

37:35Chris Ryan:usually price, gets in the way. That's why Priceline is here to help you turn your dream trip into reality. With up to 60 % off hotels and up to 50 % off flights,

37:46Andy Greenwald:you can book everything you need for your next adventure. Don't just dream about that next trip. Book it with Priceline.

37:52Chris Ryan:Download the Priceline app or visit Priceline.com and book your next trip today. Go to your happy price. Priceline.

37:59Andy Greenwald:Be a long one. I am very pleased to be joined now by my good friend, Andrew Guest, the co-creator of the excellent Disney Plus Marvel series Wonder Man. Andrew, welcome to The Watch.

38:11Andrew Guest:Thank you for having me, Andy.

38:12Andy Greenwald:It's a real pleasure to be here. Do you feel like you have been like, were you groomed for this over like 10 years?

38:17Andrew Guest:Oh my God, no. I feel, this is my first podcast. This is your first podcast?

38:22Andy Greenwald:I've never done a podcast before. What? Yeah. People might not know this about you, but you come from the comedy world. You've written for like your 30 Rock and Brooklyn Nine-Nine and Community. The podcast and comedy worlds run very closely together.

38:35Andrew Guest:I don't know what it is about me. No one's wanted me. Are we about to find out why? Maybe. This might be the worst interview. Are we just not funny? Oh, my God. Am I supposed to be funny in this?

38:44Andy Greenwald:No, no.

38:45Andrew Guest:This is a very sober reflection.

38:47Andy Greenwald:Please. Congratulations on Wonder Man. Thank you very much. It's excellent. Thank you. And I guess my first question is, how you make it so good? No, genuinely, it's exciting to talk to you about the show, not only because I enjoyed it so much, but because you made something really good in an ecosystem that is challenging and is notoriously opaque to outsiders. So I'm curious about the process. And maybe we just start in the most basic place possible, which is how do you, Andrew, end up co-creating Wonder Man for Marvel with Destin Daniel Cretton?

39:20Andrew Guest:So I had worked with Marvel once before on Hawkeye. Oh, right. And that, I think, was a representative of a more traditional, what one might think of an experience at Marvel. I got a call. I know Joe Russo from having worked with him many years at Community. Right. He called me on the Sunday before Thanksgiving week of 2020. So it was lockdown. He knew you were home. He knew I was home. It's the week going into Thanksgiving. Everyone's quiet. Everything's quiet. And he called me and he's like, hey, the producer who did all our Marvel movies, Trin, they need a new head writer on this project they're doing.

39:55Andrew Guest:Are you free in the short term? And I said, sure. And she calls me three minutes later. She says, I'm going to send you six one-hour episodes. I want to meet tomorrow to talk about it. we start shooting in New York in a week and a half and we want to rewrite the whole thing. And I said, okay, cool. Wow. Okay. Did you take the turkey out of the oven? Yeah. I mean, nobody had Thanksgiving. So you were off to New York.

40:17Andy Greenwald:I didn't go to New York. I didn't even realize how involved you were in Hawkeye. This is I'm learning as I do the podcast.

40:21Andrew Guest:This was, I, I came in towards the end. I mean, they had had a writer's room. They had rewritten after that writer's rooms a couple of times. I was literally the last call they could make to anybody to try to. And a lot of major set pieces had been committed to. There had been pre-visualization.

40:38Andy Greenwald:And that's what we know about Marvel generally, that that stuff is locked in. And then often the work of the writer is to fill in the story.

40:45Andrew Guest:It can be. And it's when things are not working as well. I mean, the thing I will say is that they want to make sure they shoot something and that they actually make it. And then I think there is this belief that we can fix it as we go. And that was very much the case with Hawkeye. Like I, you know, Haley's character was written too young. The dynamic between her and Jeremy wasn't there. There was a lot of extra twists and turns that were sort of coming up the works. And we worked around the clock. And I was very much involved with Trin and Brad Winterbaum who was not running TV at the time but was very hands-on on this project.

41:24Andrew Guest:And I needed their help as much as they needed mine. And we got through that process. The beginning of Wonder Man was very different. And none of the people I'd worked with were involved, but I got a call, essentially, that they were looking for somebody on this other project. Wonder Man started in a unique way for them. It was, Destin was shooting Shang-Chi with Sir Ben Kingsley. And I will refer to him as Sir Ben. I would expect that you would. The rest of this interview, damn straight.

41:55Andy Greenwald:Every time I have it, we have gotten an email from him.

41:57Andrew Guest:You will. You'll get an email. And he loved working with Sir Ben. And as a kind of a joke, he turned to his producer on that project, this guy Jonathan Schwartz, and said, what if we did a show where Trevor's character went back to L.A.? And they sort of kicked that around and it was kind of just a bit. And then they made a fake poster and they got excited at the idea and learned, unfortunately, there was a competing project internally at Marvel that Stephen Broussard and Brian Gay were already trying to do a Wonder Man series set in Los Angeles. And they're like, we already have this thing. At a certain point, someone was like, maybe it's chocolate and peanut butter.

42:30Andrew Guest:Put your chocolate in the peanut butter. Could it be the same show? Yes. And that's when they started meeting with writers. And so when I had my first meeting, Destin was there. Yeah. It's Brian. It's Steven Broussard. It's Jonathan. It's a lot more producers than is typical. Yeah. Because these were two projects that were merging. And they knew that Trevor was going to be one of the main characters. And they knew that this other person was going to be Simon Williams. They weren't sure if he had superpowers, if he was going to get superpowers, what was his deal.

43:01Andy Greenwald:Because people who, you know, the casual fan probably doesn't even know, but even hardcore fans have a hard time putting their arms around Simon Williams' Wonder Man. Not the strongest, most established bedrock person in the Marvel Universe.

43:12Andrew Guest:In the comics, he's had a lot of iterations that are rather complex. He's half robot. He's vision related. He's been murdered. He's had an industrialist father who helped.

43:22Andy Greenwald:helped and we're making him sound like all successful characters they all have industrialist

43:27Andrew Guest:fathers who've been murdered but um uh they and unlike hawkeye or other things i've met with at marvel there was not a run of wonder man comics that they were looking to pull from right they were sort of just open to like we want it to be about hollywood like who is this guy okay and that was sort of my job after that first meeting was to be like who the fuck is simon so you walked in

43:47Andy Greenwald:that meeting and you were like what i can tell you about hollywood is writers order mendocino farms a lot and they were like, tell us more. They all leaned in.

43:55Andrew Guest:Essentially, yes.

43:57Andy Greenwald:Because it is, there's inside baseball and then there's like, you can feel the seams outside of how inside you are. And somehow, at least to my mind, you made it very inclusive and not off-putting, which can be the case when things are slightly navel-gazing. So how did you characterize your Simon Williams from the beginning?

44:15Andrew Guest:I thought about, there had been a profile of a very famous actor who's very talented in The New Yorker, and I had read it, and I'd been struck by this person who is maybe more difficult than others to work with and has, you know, but...

44:30Andy Greenwald:And he's had a series of successes, if you will.

44:33Andrew Guest:He has.

44:33Andy Greenwald:A run of, it's almost like a succession, if you will.

44:36Andrew Guest:You would maybe say that about this person. I would.

44:39Andy Greenwald:You wouldn't.

44:39Andrew Guest:I'm not going to say that. He's a strong actor. He's very strong. He's a very talented, very strong actor. and I thought and one of the things about that article which was fascinating was that even before this person had made it big they took themselves very seriously they had their Prada suit and they were sleeping on the floor of other people's apartments and I was like if you gave that person superpowers they're not putting on a cape and flying around trying to say they want to be Daniel Day-Lewis they want to win an Oscar and I was and that's when it sort of clicked on who Simon was and then it was a sort of it was sort of problem solving from that point of like, why are he and Trevor together?

45:19Andrew Guest:What is the sort of the main thrust of this? But like, once I sort of locked in on the idea that like, oh, this guy's talented and good, but in his own way. And the superpowers are the obstacle. Yes. And not something that he gives a fuck about. That was that nice.

45:34Andy Greenwald:The twist from the pilot that is so fun and makes you feel like you're in good hands is that, you know, you're inclined to root for the person that's presented as your protagonist. And then you watch him completely fuck it up in a way that everyone who conspires to fire him is right, which is a really fun way to begin. This is all fascinating to me also because maybe with my more pessimistic view of how some of these projects have been put together, I assumed that there was a Wonder Man project that you were a part of, and then someone, you know, historically they have executives in the room. Someone was like, you know, we've got a guy who plays an actor, and then you had to, hat in hand, go to, I imagine, a country estate and beg an Oscar-winning knight to come hang out in Pacoima.

46:15Andy Greenwald:That is not the case. That was not the case. That said, how did you bring him into the fold and make him feel excited to be a part of it?

46:22Andrew Guest:Oh my God, that was incredibly intimidating. Like, you know, my first meeting, like Sir Ben was excited to be a part of this project because of Destin. He loved working with Destin. And I had to sort of pitch him what the show was. And that was really scary. And he's not particularly nice in his first meeting. Like he is. He's had a lot of first meetings. He's met so many of us dummies who come here and try to tell him something is going to be funny and then it's terrible. Yeah. And it was scary. And I think part of what happened slowly was sort of learning to trust each other and knowing that I was excited to be working with him and that I would listen.

47:03Andrew Guest:Like he wanted, he knew this character. He'd been doing this guy for 13 years. Yeah. And knew all about Trevor's childhood and what his relationship with his mother was. And I wanted to know what Ben Kingsley had figured out about all that stuff. Sir Ben Kingsley?

47:18Andy Greenwald:Sir Ben. Just want to be sure we're talking about the right one.

47:20Andrew Guest:Yes. Not the other Ben Kingsley. And the more he talked about it, the more I wanted to put that in the show and it ended up in the show.

47:29Andy Greenwald:He's incredible in the show and it is so bizarre in a way, an indictment of and a celebration of the fact that like one of our great living actors is giving one of his great late period performances on this half hour on Disney Plus. It's shocking and awesome and exciting. I also find it really interesting that the creative decision that Shane Black made and whoever else was involved in that Iron Man 3 process, it's one of the weirdest and most bold choices in the decades long run of Marvel and movies to make the Mandarin actually a hack actor midway through the movie. The fact that Marvel has found this to be like a, it's a source of continuing story, I think is really, it's hopeful that they made one really weird choice.

48:17Andrew Guest:And that's the one, that's the gift that keeps giving. Yeah, a weird and controversial choice. There's many people who that's their least favorite thing about that movie. and I'm not here to argue one way or the other, but I do think part of it is a testament to Sir Ben Kingsley's performance that there was something there. And then when Destin was doing Shang-Chi and they were reintroducing the real Mandarin into the MCU, it felt like it needed to be addressed. And then I think much to everyone's delight, that ended up being something that was really fun for everybody involved. And that's why we got more of it.

48:51Andy Greenwald:And so how did you find your Wonder Man? How did you end up settling on Yaya?

48:55Andrew Guest:That was not easy. The casting process at Marvel is complex. And a lot of people have a lot of strong opinions. The thing that we always knew, because on the page when I was writing this without knowing who was going to be this person, I knew that we needed somebody who was really good at acting. I know it sounds stupid to say. You walked into Marvel and said that? Yes.

49:22Andy Greenwald:The stones on this guy.

49:23Andrew Guest:I know. But this character has to act both well and not well in the show. And that is something that is not easy. You know, in fact, acting poorly in a believable way is harder, I think, for actors than acting well. And so that was always the main criteria, the guiding principle. And Destin had a relationship with Yaya. and when he saw him in Top Dog, Underdog on Broadway, he said, Andrew, you have to go see this. And I went and I was blown away and I'd already loved him in the Watchmen series. And I was like, can we get him? And when Yaya was interested, then those conversations started happening where he wanted to understand Simon.

50:08Andrew Guest:He wanted to know Simon's backstory, who was, what his relationship with his mother and father was, where they were from. Because we had said he was first generation. That was sort of interesting to us as like an outsider, you know, this idea. And he's like, well, okay, but where? And then we had to get specific. And in getting specific in those conversations with Yaya, that ended up in the show as well. So, I mean, Sir Ben and Yaya brought a lot to this show, not just in their performances, but in the storytelling.

50:37Andy Greenwald:Well, there's a level of specificity in the show that is so refreshing and so entertaining. And it's also a signal to me as an audience member that people care. People are paying attention. and you're on location throughout LA and also the larger area, Koima is mentioned and featured. My favorite moment maybe in the series is the Chamoy episode, which is also very specific.

50:58Andrew Guest:Yes.

50:58Andy Greenwald:But that's where real surprise and real art and joy come from. How did you make that a guiding principle for the creative process and how did you retain those moments? I imagine the actors, the ones that you're dealing with, gravitate towards those moments, but how did you protect them?

51:13Andrew Guest:I mean, I didn't have to protect It was a bizarre experience creatively in that from the beginning, Marvel was like, we want the show to feel different. And I thought they were full of shit. I thought they were like, yeah, we want the window dressing to look different, but we want to make a Marvel show. And they were like, no, we really don't. I promise. And I kept being like, I don't believe you. And I would turn in the script that I turned in for this pilot. And they're like, we like it. And I was like, no, you don't. And they're like, yeah, yeah, when we do. And that was the show they wanted to make.

51:41Andrew Guest:So they, I think for many people at Marvel, this was a chance to do a kind of show and storytelling that they don't normally get to do. And they were excited by that. And there was, as much as there was this rocky road for this show in terms of making it finally out into the public, there were champions from the beginning inside Marvel, they were excited. And they weren't saying, can this not be Pacoima? They were not saying, there needs to be more action. Even when we tested the first two episodes, which we did in front with an audience. And it didn't test all that great because a lot of people were confused by the show.

52:21Andrew Guest:I was like, okay, now they're going to say, let's, you know, change it. And they said, no, we have to market this differently.

52:28Andy Greenwald:So what's amazing to me about this is the enthusiasm is one thing, but the realities of the period in which you were making the show were another. You have made this across multiple eras of Marvel, of Disney, of Hollywood. I think the last time I saw you was just pre-strike maybe. Yeah. And things were going. Then the strike happened. And I mean, you shot some of the show three years ago, I believe. Yes. During that time, Marvel's entire TV experiment has, it felt like judgment was passed on some of it and they've turned pages and what they're making and what they're doing. What was that process like of navigating these eras?

53:07Andy Greenwald:You know, they can be rooting for a certain type of show, but was there ever a moment when you were like, this might never even get made?

53:14Andrew Guest:There were several of those moments, as you know. Where not only did I not think, so I didn't have to navigate any of it. I just held on and hoped and prayed, essentially. Like, it is hard to get anything made at all, as we all know. And Hollywood, in general, is it going through a lot of change that's really difficult to navigate? and we by the grace of somebody story gods we survived by the skin of our teeth several several moments where we almost didn't survive I can tell you like we were sort of one of the last projects in the door of the previous iteration of the Marvel Disney Plus experiment where they were saying yes to many things and I think they're like we can be anything which is a nice place to be until suddenly you can't exactly and so So there was a period during our writing where many things at Marvel were looked at sort of through a new critical lens of what can we pare down.

54:19Andrew Guest:And we were definitely one of those things that was taken off their board for a moment there. And the producers who were part of our project fought like hell to convince people this is something worth continuing with. Then when the strikes happened, I think there was some more discussions about is this a thing we want to stick with? Yeah. We shot exactly half of this project. Oh, God. Which is kind of like the worst place to be. And they stuck with it. And then we finished, and people at Marvel really wanted this thing to air earlier, and they were not allowed to have that happen. And they stuck with it, and they finally put it on the streaming service.

55:01Andrew Guest:How has your year been waiting for that to happen? It was really hard. I mean, I've been working on something else for the last year, but it was not, that was a very difficult meeting when I learned that it wasn't going to come out until 2026.

55:17Andy Greenwald:That sounded like a very long way away. Was there ever a moment, and this could also be, I don't want you to continually frame this as like you versus Evil Empire. Maybe this was a collaborative moment when there was a note, a suggestion, an opportunity to cross paths with the more mainline Marvel universe, both, you know, in attempts, whether they felt good creatively or not, like there's a little bit of it in the show, a hint of it. But were there other opportunities or suggestions that you had to navigate? No, there were not.

55:48Andrew Guest:This was from conception. They never, we were never a part of a larger storytelling. And I think this goes to the fact that even four years ago, So there was a desire internally at Marvel to separate some of this stuff. And an understanding that there was a lot of storytelling that was alienating to some people to try to stay on top of. And that maybe projects could exist separately.

56:18Andy Greenwald:How is it, was it fun to wrangle the reality into it? Because you did get a number of people who are clearly, I would have guessed that these are people who are willing to make fun of themselves. in Josh Gad and Joe Pantoliano. And, you know, you also took, honestly, it's the auteur's move. You, like, did the take a pause, take a breath mid-season bottle episode about the doorman. There's a lot of fun being had. And I think fun is something that is hard to quantify in television production, particularly in 2026 or five or four or three. How did you maintain it? How did you maintain that spirit?

56:58Andrew Guest:I mean, that is a, I mean, I haven't come up in many comedy rooms. That's sort of in my DNA, I think of like, let's make sure that this is fun.

57:08Andy Greenwald:Yeah, for someone.

57:10Andrew Guest:For somebody. For Josh Gad, at the least. Well, yeah. I mean, that was, so I think one of the things that people don't necessarily know about the execs at Marvel is that they're all big movie fans. I mean, they all went to film school. They all started in little. I'm biting my tongue here. Go on, yeah. They all started in little West Hollywood shitty apartments. So when we were talking about Simon Williams' look of that, they all had a lot to say because it was personal to them. And when we were casting Joe Pantoliano, that was an opportunity for people to like, we had this incredible list of all these character actors who maybe are not household names, but are darlings to other people who've grown up in the 80s and 90s with movies and TV shows that, and he was obviously the top of that list, but that was just a fun romp for all of us.

58:02Andrew Guest:And I think there was this relief for all these people who were dealing with literally world stakes in all of their other projects where they're trying to figure out how to get very complicated, you know, pipe out about the fate of the world. That this was the opposite of that and we could have fun And there was a spirit of fun.

58:24Andy Greenwald:There's one moment I wanted to ask about, specifically in the big audition episode where all the finalists are brought to the home of Von Kobach and they're improvising and doing lots of very actory exercise type things. And Simon is provoked and in an improvisation exercise and is so angry he punches through a man, an actor's face. Yes. Killing him instantly to the horror of everyone. Yes. This was very reminiscent of the television show The Boys. And I'm not saying you ripped it. I was like, oh, are they doing this? And then you had your cake and you ate it too because then it's a dream sequence.

59:01Andy Greenwald:I wondered if there were any moments when you, or in your collaboration with Destin, where you felt like the tone or the spirit was wobbling or wavering. Like this could be darker. This could be sillier. Because what I love about the show is that you were consistent.

59:17Andrew Guest:That's a very good question. and one that we never, I wasn't really interested in taking it to a dark place and no one was pushing that. It felt like we all wanted to make the same show. Like there was, you know, we talked about Atlanta or Dave or Barry when we were thinking about this show and those were very much in, I mean, Barry is a much darker show than we were. Especially as it went on.

59:43Andy Greenwald:As it went on.

59:44Andrew Guest:And that was not really where I want it to go. So, but it was, that was a scene that I'm, there was pushback internally about like a dream sequence. They were concerned like, is that, we've seen a lot of dream sequences and I just had faith that this would be fun. And I think it turned out to be pretty fun. It's one of my favorite moments. It's a memorable moment.

1:00:10Andy Greenwald:The series ends in a place that feels really true to the characters and it's a buddy comedy. it's a relationship story. Did you ever in the many years give thought about, well, if people like this and we have to do more, how are we walking any of this back? Because it ends in a very big place on the powers perspective.

1:00:31Andrew Guest:Yes, I have thought about that.

1:00:35Andy Greenwald:Have anyone, blink twice, if anyone, no, I mean, I don't want to, I know you can't tell me, but it does seem like the reaction has been positive. And it seems like there might be energy and movement towards making more?

1:00:47Andrew Guest:There might be. Great. I'll take that. And I remember when we were shooting the finale, Yaya came over to me at a certain point and was like, oh, so Simon can't act anymore. Yeah, that was my takeaway too. And I was like, why not? And he's like, because everyone knows he's got superpowers. And I was like, well, the DODC knows he's got superpowers. Right. Not everybody. Look at you, Mr. Marvel. The DODC.

1:01:12Andy Greenwald:You need to be like, well, the Sokovia Accords actually allow for him to perform. I mean, I would. He could work in Europe, you know. There's different. There's exact.

1:01:19Andrew Guest:That's exactly right.

1:01:20Andy Greenwald:I think that's great.

1:01:21Andrew Guest:Yeah.

1:01:22Andy Greenwald:And what other octogenarian legends of the screen could you entice next time? Maybe now that we've established it, we could get many more. It's pretty great. Well, I love the show. I have you here, so I'd be remiss if I didn't ask about your other announced project. I don't know if you can talk about it, but people might not know that you were a writer on Community for a long time and that you have been announced quite some time ago as the co-writer of the community movie. And I was just saying to Chris, nothing moves the needle on the internet like stories about the community movie. Yes. So I wondered if you could give us any update on that.

1:01:54Andrew Guest:We got very close to shooting that. Really? We, as the writer's strike and actor's strikes were ending, all of our cast were available. All of them wanted to do it. We had a line producer. We had a script that we were going to, in the process of starting to rewrite. And one of our actors' projects sort of came in conflict in terms of timing. And I don't want to single that person out because people will shame them. You know, the community fan base, and please, community fan base, do not be upset with any of these people. Can I guess? No. And so it's hard because they're all incredibly talented and very busy.

1:02:38Andrew Guest:Yeah. And the thing— Partly because of communities. Partly because of community, but we don't want to do sort of a Arrested Development Netflix season where we're shooting some people. Totally. In part, we need the fun and energy of that show is the chemistry between these people in the same room, around a table. And so we have to have them all in the same place at the same time.

1:02:58Andy Greenwald:And from what we know, even anecdotally about how community was made the first time, there were plenty of reasons to do it like The Good Wife, where Julianna Margulies wouldn't be in the same room as her co-star. It does sound like, especially as documentaries come out, that there were potentially opportunities to do that the first time around.

1:03:14Andrew Guest:There was some of that done with one particular actor. Was there? I mean, yes, occasionally. But the rest of the cast. Are delightful. All get along great and we want them in the same place.

1:03:26Andy Greenwald:I think all of this is an argument for more comedy writers doing superhero shows. Yes. I think it's really interesting that it came from Joe Russo because I think it's under remembered, if that makes sense. Yeah. What a seemingly odd choice it was for those guys to direct a Captain America movie when in fact they had been doing action movies with spirit and heart in miniature on Community. And in fact, their ability to wrangle ensembles made them incredibly prepared for what they ended up doing. and that there's a certain way of approaching story that really lends itself from comedy to superhero.

1:04:05Andy Greenwald:Yes. The anti-Von Kovac, if you will.

1:04:07Andrew Guest:Yes. And, you know, there is this big Harmon-Kevin Feige connection. You know, there's many... What is that connection? Well, many alums of Harmon Projects find their way over into the MCU. But not Dan Harmon himself. Dan Harmon has done some work with the MCU, very briefly. He should,

1:04:28Andy Greenwald:I feel like what they should do is create a pocket universe for him, like Secret Wars 2, with like, not the one that they're actually making, but like the Beyonder and the tracksuit from the 80s. Oh my God, yes. And he could just play with that.

1:04:38Andrew Guest:Oh my God. Should we just... The problem is, Dan has a hard time with schedules. You could say this as a collaborator. As a collaborator, somebody who's worked with him very closely for many years. And many hours, from what I understand. And many, many hours. And not always the predictable working hours. Not always the normal setting. And Marvel likes to have material and keep moving forward. Banker's hours.

1:04:59Andy Greenwald:Banker's hours. I get it. Well, Andrew, congratulations on the show. Thank you. It was awesome. And it was such a nice surprise. Not that it was good, but it was the way, the way in which it was good was so refreshing.

1:05:11Andrew Guest:I really appreciate that. And worth the wait. Thank you. Having people who I admire and respect like the show is huge. I mean, that has been one of the rewarding things about having this out. And the people seem to really like it. And the people who I love, love it. And that's really nice. And also me. And also Andy. Perfect. See, we got you there.

1:05:31Andy Greenwald:Thank you for making this your first podcast.

1:05:33Andrew Guest:Thank you for having me.