‘Wonder Man’ Is the Rare Marvel TV Show That Works. Plus, Does ‘The Pitt’ Need More Conflict?

26:12Andy Greenwald:And it's not just the little jokes about Deadline.com or Mendocino Farms, because we get those, and I'm not sure if the larger world cares that much. But when Simon goes home and brings Trevor home in the third episode to his mother's birthday party, it's made very clear this mother is of Haitian descent or from Haiti and the food that they serve and the community that they capture, someone thought about it. That takes decision making. It takes empowered creatives. Even just to get the like establishing shots of actually Pacoima and like the streets of a place that is LA but isn't really LA in the way that people imagine it to be.

26:49Andy Greenwald:That stuff matters. It adds to a more cohesive and I think fulfilling viewing experience. Yeah, and I also really liked the fact that I was watching something from Marvel and something in this genre that wasn't full of exposition. Where the exposition was more about character rather than tesseracts or an object that needed to be found. I mean, Ben Kingsley's mission through these few episodes so far is kind of vague. It's to get information on Simon to potentially... Because Arya Molyad's character is under pressure to fill this new prison for superheroes. Because now this is the part, this is the only part that kind of I bumped on a little bit.

27:29Andy Greenwald:Okay. The government has overfunded a rogue sort of police-like arm and wants to arrest tons of people to make a big show. Huh. So that was like, whoa, whoa. And they're like empowering, you know, extra legal tactics and general goonery. That was weird. That was strange. Yeah, I'm trying to think if there was anything else I wanted to mention about it. James Poncel directs the second two episodes after Cretan does the first two. It's just, I really recommend it. I don't want to get too deep into like appearances and cameos and developments because maybe we can hit it next week, next Thursday or something to talk about the last couple episodes.

28:08Is there a part of you in watching these episodes

28:12Andy Greenwald:where you were like, I kind of wish he didn't have powers? Yeah, but I mean, here's the thing is that I was thinking about this. It's funny you bring up Andor because I think that we say that word a tremendous amount on this podcast. And it's so amusing that Andor has now become not only a touchstone of like, this is everything that we ever wanted from a franchise, but also, did you know that this cost$700 million? You know, which is, I don't know the exact figure, but like the reporting about what Andor wound up costing over the course of its two-season run is whether it's true or not, I don't care.

28:54Every penny was worth it. You can see it on screen. But it is an intimidation tactic to be like, we can't make this stuff for less than$300 million. So it's got to be really popular and it's got to appeal to the most people possible and it's got to upstream the cinematic universes off of the small screen because we can't just throw this money away and let you guys make Ratso Rizzo walking around with John Voight which is essentially what this show has been so far it's shot in LA it looks more expensive than it probably is but this is such a great use of their money and their time and their server space to put up a small fun character study that I think people will go back to over and over again.

29:43Andy Greenwald:And in terms of, I completely agree with everything you just said and I think in terms of the the relationship to superpowers, this takes a page from, you know, currently unused on the big screen or small screen page from the X-Men playbook in which it presents a character who doesn't want any of that. What he wants is something else. And the more traditional, like Campbellian, like call to power of the young, like we've seen every version of that where Peter Parker accepts the mantle of his great power and responsibility. This guy just wants to be in movies. This guy just loves movies. This guy just wants to be third chair in big picture if nothing else works out.

30:16Andy Greenwald:you know like so the fact that the powers that he has are clamped down tamped down repressed unwanted and um unpredictable and really so far through four episodes have only shown up in terms of his emotional landscape um that really works for me and it's such a that's not a new conceit for characters or even for comic books but it's been a while yeah and it's really welcome uh okay we'll leave it there. Highest recommendation we could possibly get. This episode is brought to you by Tax Act. Like an expert coach, Tax Act offers step-by-step guidance and guaranteed accuracy when filing taxes. Get tips along the way, add expert assist to talk to tax experts and let our experts do your taxes for you with expert full service.

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32:13Andy Greenwald:Feeding the fam isn't easy, but we got you with Denny's Slam and Meal Deals starting at$5.99. Full meals for everyone, like a Grand Slam Burrito for Grandpa and a Super Slam for Super Mom. Get to Denny's now. Ballet at participating locations for dine-in or denny's.com. Limited time offer. Additional restrictions may apply at some locations. Let's go to the pit. Okay. Obviously, you were very enthusiastic about this episode. I mean, I was doing some self-reflection. Mm-hmm. I was cold, so I was trying to keep the mind sharp. And I was like, has this show entered? I don't know what the zone is, but like, it's just in a place where I'm so happy to watch it.

32:52Andy Greenwald:Yes. I feel so eager to turn on the new episode. I'm always surprised when it's over and I want more. And so I don't know if my normal critical faculties are even functioning at this point because I'm enjoying it so much. It's so cold. Well, my extremities are not functioning. my faculties possibly. So it's so expertly done that within every episode, I just find a lot to enjoy, which is a kind of maybe a normie take, but that's where I'm at with it. But I feel like you, this might make for some good Crossfire style, old school, confrontational podcasting. I feel like you're itching for a big swing.

33:31Andy Greenwald:You're itching for something big. So I've done my own version of self-reflection. My note here under the episode is, I guess I missed Dr. Collins. And let me explain why. So Dr. Collins gets mentioned. This is Tracy Esherford's character from the first season who disappears about three quarters into the season to go home after a personal medical emergency and is not present for the mass shooting casualty event that the ER is dealing with, that the pit is dealing with, and then is explained now in the, what was this, the fourth episode? Yeah. The fourth episode that she has moved to Portland to adopt a kid and be closer to her parents, her family.

34:15Andy Greenwald:Yeah, she's from there. And it sounds like she's still in touch with some people from the hospital, but maybe not Dr. Ravi. And the mention of her made me think about whether or not she had a kind of the character and the performer had a certain quality that I did not appreciate at the time, which was an authentic tension within the ER, which I think, generally speaking, the first season had. So I went back to the first season. I kind of mapped it, the first four episodes of the first season versus the first four episodes of the second season. Did you make like a Kirk Goldsberry shot chart? No, I did not do a shot chart or anything.

34:54But I did note that I was looking through like all the people who are in the hospital right now and all the doctors. and you've got Dr. Alshimi who has been banging the drum of AI but for the most part seems like a very competent if direct manager.

35:12Andy Greenwald:And I think this is intentionally so duplicative. She's basically just parroting what Robbie says most of the time. Sure. And then you've got Ogilvy who is a student doctor who's annoying and Joy who is another student doctor who seems to not want to be a student doctor. Not with Ogilvy. Or just in general is like, oh, great. I'm glad I paid$200 ,000 to learn how to do this or something. And then all of the patients, especially in this episode, like are pretty straightforward. Like, I, yeah, fix them. Not to do whatever and be like, don't fix this person. It's not exactly Dr. House mysteries. No, it's not even the mystery aspect as much as like, I was looking back at the first season.

35:56Andy Greenwald:Because you weren't moved by Whitaker being like, what if heart attack not in front? What if heart attack in his back? I just think I have a little bit of agreement fatigue. This is a great take. The characters are walking down the hall saying things, and I'm like, I agree. The people who are like, I need help. I'm like, you need help. And we can all see what's wrong with you pretty much. And when that narratively runs into, not against, but runs concurrently with the show's, I think, quite earnest, quite, I mean, I agree with them, larger liberal political worldview. Yeah, it's - When they're like, we need healthcare and we don't have them, which is really important for a TV show to say but when that's running in concert with everyone else agreeing you're starting to feel a little it's a little soft so I think what I realized when I was watching this is that what I was wondering going into this season is how are they going to recreate the stakes of the first season without it being without it turning into an episode of 9-1-1 where it's just like you guys will never believe but aliens are here you know and that actually shouldn't have been what I was worried about what I should have been worried about was how will they recreate the interpersonal tensions among the doctors if they have theoretically been working together for another nine months or whatever it is and now it's like Santos she calls him fuckleberry at the end of the episode but it's pretty much 80 % nicer than she was in the first season.

37:20And they live together.

37:22Andy Greenwald:And the scene is pitched on his perspective watching her leave being like my friend, my colleague is having some personal trauma and is in crisis. Yes. And Langdon, who had a kind of cocky swagger, which was obviously deflated in the first season, is now like, I'm just working the program and I'm being a good guy. Let's drill down on the Langdon thing. Because first of all, you're the best at what you do. You have really identified something that I think, despite my absolute simping for the show. I'm simping too. I agree with you. And I think this is a really smart point to make. Like, when we talk about how R.

37:53Andy Greenwald:Scott Gemmel and Noah Wiley and John Wells and the team behind the show are the cream of the crop in terms of just professionalism and expertise and doing things the old school way, we are talking about something that came up in our industry conversation last week. Something that Mickey and Conrad and the people who make that show in their more new school way do not subscribe to, which is that over time, everyone becomes friends. not just interpersonally, but like the television show Friends in the sense that we just can't wait to see the people we like bounce off each other in ways that they historically do.

38:26Andy Greenwald:And conflict goes down and we are rewarded. Our pleasure centers are rewarded, but sometimes the drama can suffer as a result. We are seeing that already, not just because you could excuse the fact that they work together and they're used to it and they have their rhythm as evidenced by the scene in the ambulance bay when they're talking shit about Dr. Al-Hashimi and it's like, you shouldn't be doing this in front of an attendant. And Robbie's like, well, you can say anything with me because we know each other. I totally agree. The one point that I was eager to come in and make is a version of this in regards to Langdon.

38:58Andy Greenwald:Because Langdon is the opportunity. And there's plenty of season to go. He's been back at work for three hours now, four hours now. there is a softness and restorative nature to his off-camera arc that feels potentially like a missed opportunity. Or perhaps we're just jumping the gun and there's a lot more to come. Exactly. We still have not gotten the Landon Robbie clear the air thing. But one of the things that I've always found a little bit, not confounding, but intriguing, I guess, about the character and the casting is that Patrick Ball is clearly a very good actor. And he was just doing Hamlet here in LA.

39:36Andy Greenwald:Like he's pedigreed and talented. He is also kind of, on TV anyway, like softly handsome in a way that he looks like a TV actor in this context. Sure. Might be different in other roles, in other contexts. And I felt, and I was pleased in the first season when after a few episodes of kind of blandness from the character of being like Robbie's friend, who's also good, there was some darkness and a little bit of a, you know, there was some road for him to travel down. Maybe it's a factor of the show's unique conceit, which is that they jump to a different day that they could yada yada the harder part and we get him back.

40:15Andy Greenwald:The show works better if something is cutting against the grain. I think that's a really good point. And now, what's clearly coming to, will cut against the grain is the day is going to go haywire in some way. Yes. But interpersonally, it would be good to see that happen as well. And I think that they might, because the other thing I was going to say is the real estate that they carved out in this episode and maybe the previous episode for character stuff, they do have to be artful in it because they have to front load it. Because once the Ambo Bay starts filling up, there isn't a lot of space for Robbie to sit with his pal, the hospital psychiatrist.

40:50Andy Greenwald:Or Dr. McKay to be like, I'd love to go on a date to an art gallery with this guy, you know, and stuff like that. So we kind of have to front load that, which in the week-to-week experience might feel a little bit off, and they do a good job of hiding the ball, no Patrick. But I think it's an interesting point. Yeah. And is it a casting question? Is it a who you're adding to the ensemble question? No, I think it's just sheer numbers. So now it's less time. Joy and Ogilvy probably take 3 % or 5 % of the time we would have spent with Mel Santos and Whitaker. And there's the new nurse too. There's the new nurse.

41:29And there feels like there are more patients, but there hasn't been quite the same. By this point in last season, I think there was the Xanax fentanyl overdose. There was the Robbie and Collins debate about whether to perform an abortion. There were a couple of things happening that were like, oh and the brother sister trying to decide whether or not to that was big enforce the dnr on their

41:58Andy Greenwald:father now counterpoint so far this season we've had michael nori's exposed asshole yes and also like the the family with no insurance that the girl is i'll just go through the patients right now so like the insurance family dad with diabetes prideful mom doesn't want daughter to find out about the lack of insurance daughter overhears docs talking about lack of insurance starts GoFundMe. Eyelash Lady, who is apparently also Patrick Ball's partner in real life. That's nice. Shout out. And we learn about Dr. J, Dr. Javadi's social media alter ego persona. Would you follow her? I try not to get my medical advice from social media.

42:36Andy Greenwald:I think that's probably wise. I think that's probably wise. I say that my general practitioner is probably like, it's me, Dr. O. But wouldn't he just, from what you said about him, he would just start like a soccer podcast blog we talk a lot about world football about the beautiful game yes and then we talk a little bit about my body you know it's never been better eyelash lady parkour influencers yeah um when you say it like that it sounds silly that was my that was my shit this week when when that guy was like i'll just pull this out it's like that's a fucking big l to take dog just be like let me help me pull this giant shard of glass out of dude's back yeah the woman suffering from bulimia and louie with the tooth and the stomach.

43:19Andy Greenwald:And the yard advice. Yes. The student who had an episode seems like it's got legs as a storyline because there's also the, what did the security guard do to him? What's going on with him? They're about to do the spinal tap. And then the woman who comes back, possibly with MRSA. That's bad. Oof. They were not happy about that. Did they show her in the beginning of the season? I don't remember. I was going to ask you. I didn't remember it. So it's possible that that's... Because Langdon's patients have been... In triage. Quick, yeah. For the most part. And then we have, I'm like, I really like Joy.

43:52Yeah. Not the emotion, but the character on the show. It's to come by these days. And she's got blood exposure from puncturing her glove. The glass. And they have to give her a bunch of tests. And I'm very much hoping she doesn't get like hepatitis or something.

44:10Andy Greenwald:I think that's a good wish. Yeah. I think to your other point about like lower stakes conflict this season, Am I missing anybody? No, I mean, the simmering tension, there's one or two, but I think the simmering tension that is fueling Santos' return to, you know, the Bugs Bunny meme of like, Lord, forgive me, back to the old me, is because Dr. Halashimi is stressing the importance of documentation and paperwork. Sure. Which feels relatively, I mean, look, these guys are medical professionals behind the show, involved in the show. If they say it's important, I believe them. I believe it's important.

44:43Yeah, but it is, I was having a hard time understanding her turn was that surely because Al Hashimi had

44:53Andy Greenwald:threatened her status threatened her status and when we met when we rejoined Santos this season she's like I'm gonna dull major basically can I you know one of my favorite parts of the episode was when the glass extraction happens and the surgeon is there and then they bring out this big syringe and Ogilvy is super fucked up already once he's not fucked up but he has fucked up says what's that And the way Robbie says, and I'm going to try to get the quote right. It's a syringe full of hemostatic, fast-expanding sponges. That's the moment when I wanted the thick of it writers to join the writer's room.

45:26Andy Greenwald:Be like, a fast-expanding sponges, you absolute twat. You mentally impaired donut. Like, I just wanted some extra. Yeah. You know, I enjoyed that flex. But the jokes in general are better. Like, when he's like, motorcycle trips are Zoom therapy. Yes. Come on. You thought that was a joke? Yeah, it's all right. And I think that actually is a good segue to Robbie, which was, you know, a very obviously physician heal thyself storyline from the first season of him coming in, dealing with the PTSD of COVID, dealing with the loss of his mentor during that time period, feeling very underwater with hospital executives and Gloria and all that stuff about their patient scores and their efficiency.

46:18I think his sabbatical and his helmet thing is worth watching, worth keeping an eye on as like, oh, how could this kind of develop over the course of the season? But for the most part, he seems... It was like, I think I missed him being in a really bad place. And I don't know, I don't want that for a character. but I think it's interesting television when they're like that.

46:43Andy Greenwald:But these guys have made lots of seasons of television. Yes. And when you introduce stakes like they did in the first season to get attention, to make you feel how visceral and minute to minute this circumstance, this workplace can be, you open the show with Robbie talking his colleague down from the roof a little bit. And then you put him in like the worst day of his life, Redux. And then you have to have but then you have to have that same character anchor this show for five, six, I won't say it because I can hear my kids saying it, five, six, or eight years. Right, five, six, seven? Yeah, we're a little over it.

47:21Andy Greenwald:You got to toggle it. Like you? Everyone like me on earth. When I got back from Potter, my kids were like, do they say six, seven in England? I'm like, oh yes, you've ruined the world. We no longer are in quarantine. They sure do. You have to be careful with the character extremity dial. Because in a movie, a character like Dr. Robbie ends the movie by like, I need to fix myself and drives off on a motorcycle. Or I have recommitted to this as my course of action as a professional. But the show is now stuck in a place of credible, emotionally honest and relatable people who every day do an impossible thing.

48:05Andy Greenwald:Which exists in the world. That is 100 % realistic, but it is in terms of drama. Nowhere did I say this show is no longer realistic or believable. But they're navigating something that is not realistic, which is serialized drama. Yes. And that is an interesting thing to pay attention to. The hospital show that shall not be named that this show is not based on is it would be an interesting experiment to go back and map that show against this show because I think that this show is trying to do much different things with character and much different things with time. And can I zag and say a different opinion that I feel like hasn't been said enough, which is, thank God this isn't a reboot of the show that Jim be named Chicago Hope.

48:49Andy Greenwald:Because first of all, Mandy Patinkin is too busy. But second, the character that Noah Wiley played before when he was wearing a medical doctor's coat was a child of privilege and had a very specific background and arc that is completely different from the way he is able to play Robbie with the freedom of creating an entirely new person without the years of baggage, good and bad, from what he had been. And I think it's really important that the show is trying to do something. And I think now we can give it the credit for being something different. Last note, this may be commonly held knowledge.

49:27Andy Greenwald:I'll just say just really quickly, my whole critique comes with the caveat of this is still among the best things on television. Yeah, but I think the show gives us such a unique opportunity to question and critique in real time because proof of concept, this thing works. This show works. What's interesting, and I think why your point is well taken, is because what they're doing is so specific and so unique that we have a different way into observing their creative process because they are solving for things in real time that other shows don't have to, such as where we put character beats because we are never leaving this hospital, for example.

50:05Andy Greenwald:And so sometimes they get away with it when they hide the nutrition. Like Seinfeld's wife put spinach in brownies. Like, you know about that? This is all parent stuff. No, I didn't know about that. Jessica Seinfeld wrote a cookbook where she was like, your kids need vegetables, but they don't have to like them, so make brownies with spinach in them. And now their kid is Bari Weiss's lieutenant. Yeah, it's great. if you nepo babies stick together you know i'm sure that the group chats you guys are on are pretty rich with observations about how to nobody knows our struggle communicate with audiences you know in the digital era i have to work that much harder to have movie reviews that people take seriously you do and you've really you've done it by the way uh yeah for sure i mean i think it's telling that you haven't done rewatchables remains of the day because then it would be a little bit too close to like your father's patch.

50:56Andy Greenwald:I wouldn't hold my breath for that one. I've been waiting by the phone. This may be common knowledge, but I only recently learned this because I did feel bad that I didn't know the name of Nurse Jessie, who is stepping a little bit more into the camera, into the spotlight this season. And I was, I'll be honest, like I was thinking of that character this weekend because it felt Alex Preddy-like, like that this is just a guy who works hours in, you know, a thankless job. And so I was Googling him lately. And this is the most, shout out to Simon Williams in Wonder Man, the most like LA is a real place sort of story I can imagine.

51:36Andy Greenwald:This guy, Ned Brower, who plays Nurse Jessie, moves here to be an actor, gets a little bit work as an actor, gets work as a model, plays music with his friends, is the drummer for Rooney. Oh, yeah. The pop rock band led by Jason Schwartzman's younger brother, Robert. But was Jason Schwartzman ever in that band? He was in Phantom Planet. That's right. Okay. Drums for a while, acts for a while, sees the writing on the wall, maybe this isn't a career, goes to school and becomes a nurse. And he is actually a nurse. Yes. And then when the show is being put together, someone, because it's a relatively small community, or he sees the audition for it or whatever.

52:14Was he like a medical advisor on the show at all?

52:16Andy Greenwald:No, but I think that the spirit of the show has been to bring in, to sprinkle in real people. And, you know, I think people who are paying more attention to the show than even, we watch it, but I think super fans have probably maintained lists of like, these people are actually nurses. These people are doctors. And yeah, he's married to Sarah Jane Morris, who was on Brothers and Sisters, who made an appearance on the show as well. Okay. Past season. I just like, I like the artful way the show is doing this, where it's bringing people who are competent in multiple fields. Yes. But, I thought it was cool.

52:50Andy Greenwald:This guy's actually contributed to the world of nursing and medicine. And you can, I don't think it's an accident that like, I just, when he's in the background of scenes, I was like, that guy seems like he knows what he's doing. I didn't learn his name, which was on me. No, he definitely seems like he's been in those rooms before. Um, all right. Well, we'll be back on Monday to talk about A Night of the Seven Kingdoms and Industry. Will you give me some temperature updates of your core, your extremities? Yeah, man. I'll try to struggle throughout here. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to seeing my Boston people.

53:24Yeah. The Boston winter is something that, I mean, we went for rewatchables the last time. It was like cold, but like we were walking around. It was like 30s, 40s. And now it's aughts. Yeah. So we'll see. Thank you to Kaya and Kai. I got to catch a plane. We'll talk to you guys on Monday. Safe travels. Hopefully.

53:49Thank you.