Bellingham's Brilliance

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1:07That's O-D-O-O dot com. The back end of my playing career and certainly my time as manager, that's the one consistent thing I was wanting from the players to have an opinion, have a voice and speak more. I thought it was really refreshing. Against the big teams, if you don't perform, if we give Argentina the encouragement to go forward and to get into good areas probably going to punish you a bit more than Norway. My algorithm is full of Wayne Rooney three years ago and then Wayne Rooney... There was nothing wrong with me three years ago as well, by the way. There was more to love. Wayne Rooney WhatsApp chat that we've got was absolutely going off.

1:42And I was like, what's happened here? And it was Wayne saying that he was going to do it and sending photos of rowing boats in Portugal. Someone said, you'd be better off on that pedlo. That's the hardest thing in the world. Have you done it at the shop in Portugal? Oh, mate. It doesn't look that far and you go out and then you look back and you think, oh my God. When you come back, mate. Yeah. Yeah, it's tremendous. Well, this feels like a small slice of sort of home. Kelly Summer's back with you. Wayne, good to be back on the show with you. I know you've been podding without us, or without me.

2:11I know Kay's been around. But, yeah, I've been a little bit busy in the US. It's nice to be back chatting with you. Are you enjoying the World Cup? Yeah, it's been good. We've missed it, to be honest. Hasn't been the same without yet. Ah, that's the nicest thing you've said in a year of work. Thanks. Thanks. The only disappointment, of course, is Kay's on holiday today, isn't he? So we haven't quite got the gang back together. But you've called in the help of a friend and someone that's a returning guest, which means they didn't hate the first appearance. Yeah, no jokes. That'd be me, wouldn't it?

2:39I don't know which one, guest or friend. I'm not sure which one comes up higher on the list, to be honest. I think he'd call you a friend. I think he'd call you a friend. You always call her friends when you didn't need. How about you, then? You're at home in Manchester. Wayne's now, hold on, just to clear this up, actually, Wayne, you're actually out in the US now, is that right? Yeah, no, I flew out Sunday night, stayed in New York, then flew to Atlanta. Got, been doing a bit of filming with Nike, which will be good. More acting? A little bit. Yes. But then in Atlanta now, getting ready for the game.

3:10So how have you been anyway? You've been around the squad. It's been good. Yeah, it's been really good, actually. What am I on now? Week five, week six? I don't know. Let's just let everyone know, by the way, that I turned up to this recording about two minutes before because I got my time zones completely wrong. Proof that I have travelled. I think I've done about 18 flights now. So I don't know, like you're going plus an hour, plus two hours. Like, I don't know. I just hope that my iPhone changes. And this morning when I was told it was 10am for you, I assumed it was 10am for me, but it's actually 9am because I'm in Kansas City.

3:41We're recording this the morning before England play in Atlanta, which is why you're there, Wayne. It's been, I mean, it's been incredible, to be honest. The squad, I've done this for four major tournaments now and the squad have always been, the culture's always been good. I know we've spoken about England culture a lot, but this time, I don't know, like Thomas Tuchel has brought something very different. They all respect him, even like, I've spoken to Cobby Mainu, who's not played a minute and he's, I mean, I'm sure he's not happy, but the harmony is amazing. I think we've seen that in the subs and we've had some funny moments as well, which I'm sure we'll come on to, but I can't complain, but I'm tired.

4:14The funniest moment for me was the Harry Kane one, the interview you're done with them. I love when they cut back to you in the studio. It was hilarious. And also, you know when Harry came back out, so he came back out and asked to redo the interview with us, and I was gutted because I knew you'd gone off air. But he said to me, who found it the funniest? He thought Joe Hartwood of, and I was like, no, I think Wayne's still recovering. Yeah, no, honestly, it was hilarious. I felt bad because, obviously, Jordan had just got injured. So I was hoping he was okay, but I couldn't stop laughing. You know, when you get the giggles and you're gone.

4:44Phil, did you see it? Yeah, it was brilliant. and obviously nothing you can do in that situation. Well, you know yourself, you get a little bit of dry mouth or your voice might change a little bit, but he could not turn off the squeak, could he? He'd spoken to me, Phil, as he came over, right? So, because I just like, you know, like when you speak to someone close and I just said, just so you know, Harry, I'm going to ask you about Jordan because I just didn't want to, I know him well, I didn't want to catch him off guard. And he replied and I thought he could talk. I took care of the frog. Honestly, at times like this, the internet is so good have you seen some of like the gifs are amazing they're so good but the best thing was i felt quite guilty but i didn't know how so wayne when when you're doing that obviously it goes virtually live back to the studio and it's like four in the morning there i walked into the tunnel and i said to my producer oh he lost his voice i think it was all a bit funny and he was like my producer is watching the bbc coverage and he's like wayne rooney is dying with laughter and i was like was it that funny and he was like yeah it really was because in the moment i didn't realise and then Harry emerged very quickly with a throat sweet and said he'd had basically as many messages about the interview as he had about the game.

5:51Well he was too late to redo the interview and he was just out there that it's always gone. But I love that it I just thought it showed a different side to him and I felt that a lot this tournament with Harry we've done an interview with him that will actually go out before the Atlanta game obviously he's had this wild season over 70 goals but I don't know like we're seeing a bit more of his personality which I think is quite nice. I think sometimes, Wayne, we haven't seen that. Yeah, I think with a few players, I think with Jude as well, I think with the two of them, he seems more interactive and doing more interviews and it's good to see.

6:24I think for, obviously, for the fans back home as well, getting to know the players a little bit more through the interview, so I think they've been really good. Yeah, I like that Harry came back out and did it and it went down, like I said, it didn't go out on air, but it went down really well on social media. He's been great and the interview that is going to go out ahead of the game is the best I've done in five or six years of interviewing him. And it got me really pumped. And I'm now convinced we're going to beat Argentina. So the only way is down, really. No, we were right, I think. Yeah, no, there's something, there's something there.

6:53Tuchel's good. He looks like a manager who you want to play for and be serious when he needs to be serious. But he looks like a manager who can have a bit of banter. We actually did with Alex Ferguson, you know, we used to have banter and play pranks on him and stuff. and I think that's part of you know creating a a chemistry between the players John Stones thing yeah that was just as good that was amazing for me the fact that he looked absolutely devastated one minute the next thing you know he's dancing around the jumper we're going to show us this time Elliot Anderson said that the camera didn't actually fully capture Tuchel's proper reaction apparently he was proper head in hand so he obviously thought for a minute but obviously the defence hasn't had much luck but I thought John Stones other than a slightly shaky moment in that first half was exceptional against Norway.

7:41What did you make of Norway? Jags, I'll come to you on that first, because we saw Wayne, a lot of people have seen Wayne on the BBC Reaction show, but what did you make of the Norway game? Because Thomas Tuchel, I think rightfully said there's more to come from them in terms of performance. Yeah, it was always going to be a tough one. We were obviously favourites. We hadn't really played in those conditions before. I thought we started off pretty much in control of the game, but as a lot of the games in and they woke up and gone. Nothing tends to happen that much early on. We make a few sloppy passes.

8:10You just mentioned, obviously, probably the one or the bad five minutes that John had during the game, which gave them a little bit of emphasis. And then they score what I'm going to class as a cross, because I think it was. Yeah, it definitely was. But again, we took it fantastically well. We were looking for someone to stand up. We've spoke previously, just a minute ago, about Jude and his character. But we needed someone to step up. You know, great ball. into him from Gordon, who was having a quiet half, great goal. And again, we just looked like that was going to be us. I felt quite confident we'd be able to get the win after that.

8:42But I'm enjoying it. It's different, obviously. The water, the hydration breaks, as I say, are killing the game a little bit, but starting to get used to them. Probably needed them for that game. I think they've helped England as the tournament's gone on. Well, at certain times, yes. I think, like I say, in certain games, it's given Tuchel a time to get to obviously his players in. But no, I think there's a hell of a lot more for the team to give. I think that's what's been sort of alluded in some of the post-match interviews. We've obviously jumped on a different bandwagon at different times.

9:17I wanted to dive into the post-match comments and everything because I have since spoken to Harry Kane and Thomas Tuchel. That was on Monday, so two days after it kind of happened and things are a little bit calmer. and I really got the feeling that it's actually really fired them up. Wayne, if your manager, I imagine Sir Alex Ferguson probably sent a lot of messages in the media to you guys. If your manager had talked about the performance like that, would you have been fired up by it? I think sometimes managers will talk like that in the dressing room. Jags will back me up on that. Managers will tell you if you've been good, you haven't been good.

9:52I also think Tuchel did, by the way. I think he's very consistent. He says in the press what he says to the players. Yeah, but then sometimes managers try and protect the players, which is also a good thing at times. But I think that was the perfect moment to Tuchel. And that's what I'm saying about he's giving messages and putting it on the players a bit as well in the press, which he will have done in the dressing room. And I think Jude's interview was brilliant. I thought, as a manager, that's what you want. When you talk about character and players having a personality, that's exactly what that is in due to response.

10:28And managers will love that. Managers want the players to be outspoken and have a voice. You want more players having a voice and being heard because I think now, well, since the back end of my playing career and certainly my time as manager, that's the one consistent thing I was wanting from the players to have an opinion, have a voice and speak more. So I thought it was really refreshing. I wonder if there's been a bit of a kind of, it feels to me from being around it, that mentality is one of the biggest things that has changed in this squad. I don't know if you've noticed that as well, Jagson.

11:05I mean, obviously I know we're not closer to it than you are, but like on the pitch and stuff, like they, even when they're not playing well, you said it before, they find a way to win. Yeah, they've got a belief. I think that that comes with the success or the near success that we've had in the previous tournaments. I couldn't agree in a way with winning. You've got the people with a personality belt. When you're winning games, that's when you want to hear. You don't want to just pipe over the cracks. The fact of the matter was, we could have played better. That's what the manager said. The fact of the matter was, the player who played in the game and scored the goal and ran around in the heat said it was ridiculously hard, and maybe she gives an inch.

11:39That was basically all it was. But the way it is and the way the world is, no one speaks, everyone agrees, everyone tries to be on the same page. Sometimes there's no sort of different opinions. Again, the boys don't have a So again, look who comes on, the subs that come on. They've got jobs to do. They come on for five minutes, they come on for 50 minutes. They come on, they do what they need to do. People that get subbed, I've not seen anyone on a water bottle, a tantrum when they've been brought off. Everyone understands that for us to win this World Cup, we need the squad. And at the moment, potentially we could have played better.

12:10I don't care. We've got through the games. We've used the squad and everyone seems to be on the same page. So for me, looking at the Inwards, it looks great. I said at the start of the tournament, I was a little bit surprised with obviously a couple of players with Foden and Palmer and Harry Maguire not being there but I had trust in Thomas Tuchel and that still remains so we have to have trust in Bach what he's doing because it's worked so far and a massive plus is England haven't been at the best but they've found a way to win games and I think that comes from the clarity which Thomas Tuchel gives them players Dan Bern will have known he's not going to play but he might need them at some point to try and help see out the game exactly what he's done, how he's used them Rhys James has played, been out injured comes in, plays at right back, plays midfield Jed Spence who I thought was brilliant when he came on good night, coming on left back, so he hasn't used that many players, so you just hope that that doesn't catch up with the lads if they go through it in the final, not having used that players and if he is forced to use a player who hasn't played any minutes over the last five, six weeks, whether that comes back to bite us, you hope not.

13:23But my faith and trust in Tuchel is the same now as it was at the beginning of the tournament. Now, these are the times where the top managers flourish. Big games, big decisions. We saw it against Mexico, Wayne, didn't you? The fact that he went to a back five as early as he did, that was bold. And what I love about him as a fan is he makes these big decisions like he did with the squad, but he's going to go with it and he's going to win or lose his way. He's got conviction in it, which I think as a player surely just makes you believe in whatever he does because he believes in whatever so strongly.

13:58Yeah, the players believe in him. You can see that. And I think as good as Gareth Southgate done, I think you could see there was a few players who weren't too short in them big moments in big games. And these players will hang on everywhere, Thomas Tusha says, and they trust them. So I think that's a big difference this year to what we've had in previous years. And we just hope we can go that one step further. The energy, obviously, back home. And I fell out to Portugal for a couple of days with my kids. And, you know, what this England team is doing for them, for my kids and them, you know, the expectation and hope and belief is huge.

14:40So that's like that right across the country. So I hope the players are seeing that back home, what they're doing to everyone back in England as well as obviously the fans who've flown over. I'm surprised you haven't got three of your four kids with you, Wayne. I thought they'd want to come out and watch as well. Well, one of them's just got the Arnan haircut. She just sent me a picture of me. When Dad's away, the kids will play. I think it's to you that, Wayne. I think you should try it out. Well, that's what I've been trying. I've shaved it off in the middle there. I've seen it. When did it about 15 years ago?

15:14Wayne, I want to come on to your glow up because a lot of people on social media, my algorithm obviously knows I work with you and I get a lot of things coming up with like Wayne two years ago to Wayne now. You've had a glow up, but we'll talk about that at the end. We'll save the importance. I've just been training. Have you? Yeah, I've been training, yeah. Running, swimming, paddle tennis. Tennis? Yeah, just been training, yeah. Healthy living, impressed. Okay, back to the football. I've got to get ready for pre-season.

15:46Before we completely digress, I just wanted to ask you both something that I've put to both of the players. I put it to Thomas post-match the other day and then I put it to him on Monday when we had a bit of time to think. Because he's told us the whole way through that England will get better. As we get to these knockouts, we'll see a better England. And he admitted himself, he still hasn't seen that. So do you think England can still win the World Cup just on moments? Because that's probably what's got us, mentality and moments has got us to this point. do you have to be the best team or can you get there with two world-class players in form and with whatever the other secret ingredient of mentality they seem to have or do they have to improve now, Wayne?

16:21All the big trophies are won through moments. So that's how trophies are won. You think back to big Champions League finals, World Cups, it's all been through moments because not only the teams are pretty balanced and quite similar in skill sets. So you just hope we have the better moments in the game. And performance-wise, the only thing I'd say is performance-wise and why Thomas Tuchel was driving that home good night after the game is against the big teams, if you don't perform, if we give Argentina the encouragement to go forward and to get into good areas, they're probably going to punish you a bit more than Norway.

17:07did so you have to make sure you're on the right hand at the moment it's about now this last game it's about concentration levels and making sure you take your moment

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17:57Going back to those two players, Jax, Harry Kane and Jude Bellingham, I kind of said it to Harry yesterday, what a spectacle for the neutral and just for football fans in general or having those two plus Lionel Messi on the pitch. It's three of the best in the world, isn't it? But particularly in Jude's case, is he the best player in this tournament at the moment? Is he up there as the best in the world at the moment with how he's playing? Yeah, I think so, yeah. And especially as everyone was sort of dousing him a little bit, you know, we were talking about him, but not talking about him, expecting him to be one of the best players in the tournament.

18:30We were talking about whether he'd actually get in the team. So when you look at it compared to obviously your Messi's, canes these were guaranteed starters and really important players guaranteed before the scene before the pre-the tournament started so i think he's not only is he obviously been where we wanted him to be and where a lot of people expected him but he's going against the grain of sort of where he was before the tournament started so you know you've mentioned mentality most of times he's he's been known as a young kid i think wayne played against some of the young kid and you'd expect a young kid to be a bit starved playing against my rooney and he totally wasn't and that's that's been his mentality from day dot so um i get i love it i love i love a little bit of arrogance i think that makes all the best players um again going back to whether we need to play really well and win or just get their moments and win i know which one i'm voting for it's just getting a win whether the moments are fantastic and we play horrendous ride our luck and get to a final and but to give Ardencino all the chances and things that potentially Thomas Tickle was talking about wouldn't be ideal but again we've still got the players to come out on top with those magical moments and if those two don't score we've still got a little bit of firepower in and around the bench.

19:42Do you know the thing with you is when you look at the tournament and you look at the big players you know what you're getting with some of these big players and not necessarily running back and defending they're waiting for moments which I've been speaking about with Jude it's all about energy, it's all about passion it's all about desire, it's all about drive and that's how he's getting his rewards for all that and that's very rare to have that a lot of these top players they rely on the ability and the technique and stuff to get them moments Jude's is desire, it's hunger and it's so refreshing to see a player playing the toughest game, but also doing it.

20:26It's relatable to the fans. That's what fans want, especially the England fans. They want to see players, you know, running and working for the team and for the badge. And that's exactly what Jude's doing. And he's getting his rewards for, because that's not easy, playing a bit of a deeper role, whether it's as an eight or a 10, to keep making the box and keep getting in them areas. That's not easy to do that and then get back and helping the team defend. I thought it was interesting. We've seen, we obviously know Jude can play pretty much anywhere, but he obviously, he started, I think he, I lost track of Tuchel's changes in game, to be honest, against Norway, but he was deeper at one point, wasn't he?

21:01And then he brought more subs on to push him forward. And when he was asked why, he said, basically the whole reason for making those subs was to get Jude further forward. Does he have to play in that further forward role, Wayne, for England to be at their best? Is that his best position for this team? I think it depends on the game, on the opposition. because he's not someone in tight areas who's going to create a lot from them tight areas. When the ball goes wide, it's the timing of his runs, it's his energy to get in there, his desire to get in there. And sometimes when you're defending a bit deeper, he can drive with the ball.

21:42So it's not necessarily being the one to get in the pocket and unlock a defence that way. Jude's biggest thing for me is running off the back of midfielders and coming on the blind side, defenders, and his reaction to the penalty box. Best in the world right now? One of the best? Where do you rank him, Wayne? For me, he's been the best in the tournament. In terms of best in the world, I think you're looking at someone like Mbappe or Haaland, but I think he hasn't quite at them levels at the end of the season, but he's been the best player in the tournament for me. Agree, Phil? Yeah, different.

22:20As Wayne says, the boys at the top end seem to get a lot of help, get the ball given to him. But they say, I love it when he just gets it from deep runs, passive moves and his timing is fantastic. So sometimes that does help when he's a bit deeper. But as long as he keeps scoring goals, he's definitely going to be my player. It reminds me a bit of you, Wayne, and the mentality of when I used to watch you as a player, like almost when things go against England, it lights something inside of him. I actually asked him about it. It's like he gets angry that England aren't doing as well. I think you saw it against Norway.

22:53England weren't playing well. One nil down just before half time. And he just goes, I'm going to do this. I'm going to take this. And I'm going to do something special. He made a stupid tackle as well, didn't he? He made a tackle not long into the game. Are you going to say that reminds you of Wayne as well? Well, 100%, yeah. I wasn't as bad as Wayne's tackles. Man would never shoot for the dude. Just missed him. Well, again, that shows you. I know Wayne's talking about being relatable. That's the frustration we were all feeling. and you can see even though he plays at the top level and he's got the top attributes and all sorts he still obviously was getting frustrated and decided he needed to volley someone so yeah he's very similar to Wayne you just don't want to lose and you expect more firstly I've said a few times it reminds me of me in terms of one minute you're there you're thinking this lad's a genius and then the next minute you're thinking don't go into that tackle don't get said and that's exactly how I was but he's obviously backing up in the biggest tournaments and it's what he's doing.

23:53There was doubters there before the tournament. He's put all that to bed and if we win it, I still think it's going to be Harry Kane to win us the tournament but for me, Drew has been the player of the tournament. What a position to be in though that we've got two world-class players, as you said, operating at the very top level right now. We feel so fortunate to kind of watch them as England fans. That's how I feel anyway. So how do we stop Argentina then, Wayne? Is it as simple as stop Messi, stop Argentina? A lot of it. I think the difference with Argentina, their whole team are playing for him.

24:27It's mad. It's nuts. They're playing for him to try and get him to win the World Cup. And I think there's a difference with Portugal. I think some of the Portugal players didn't really seem to like that role of playing for Ronaldo. The same way Argentina do for Messi. and Messi listen you just can't give him the time on the ball because he looks like he's not interested in the game and then all of a sudden he comes to life and again he has them moments which are just pure genius so this game is concentration the whole back line midfield even Harry Kane up top the concentration and Jude might have a role to play which he becomes more of a midfielder to help out during the game but then he's helping support Harry Kane in this board.