Should England Replace Tuchel?

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1:27they've got is huge. If Argentina win the World Cup, I think Messi takes any debate out of any in the end and he is the greatest of all time. Oh, it doesn't get any easier, does it? All the hope, all the expectation. And here we are again. England are out of a major tournament and we've had a little bit of time now to think about it. Wayne, obviously you were part of the BBC's coverage, as was I. We heard what you thought post-match and how frustrated you were. How are you feeling with a bit of time to think? Yeah, it's just gutted, really, in being honest. I think the game was there for us, Argentina were there for us to take.

2:08I thought first half, I thought we'd done really well because Argentina, they're clever, they know how to play the game in terms of the fouls, the stabbing the game. And I thought we handled that really well. And then to go a goal up, I think our biggest issue was going a goal up. we got a goal up and then I said after the game and I doubled down on it I think the changes absolutely killed us and listen Thomas Tusha is a world class manager I think we all know that but I think he got it wrong I think when he sits down and reflects on the game I think he got it wrong and the changes amazed we encouraged Argentina and I've said I said this I was speaking to someone last night and I said I said this to them this is why Alex Ferguson was the best because he used to say when you go a goal up you have to go for the kill.

3:00That's when they're at the weakest. You know, they're thinking how do we get back in the game and for the next five minutes you go at them. You praised him against Croatia for doing that, didn't you? Yeah, you run a team with intensity, you're aggressive. If there's a tackle there you go and win it with force and you make them feel like there's no way back in the game. And I think we sat back before he made the changes we dropped deeper and I've seen his interview after the game where he said it's the way the game went and we had to change to adapt to that but I think he could have changed and adapted and put more attacking players on and have more outlets when we do win the ball because we had no outlet when we win the ball and for Argentina if they see attacking players coming on rather than defensive players maybe they start thinking we don't want to lose this game 2-0 and they don't go forward as much as they did and gamble as much as they did.

3:57So, yeah, I think Thomas Tuchel has made a mistake. I'm pretty sure he looks like an honest guy that he'll hold his hands on reflection. And a lot of the time you go out and it's always a player gets the blame or a few players get the blame. I don't think you can look at any player in particular on this one. I think you'd have to look at the manager. okay there's not many things that can cheer me up this morning but seeing you after so long is maybe one of them wish it was in there that's nice that's like John Svall's on Saturday Saturday he's been on holiday so we wanted to get the tan out nah do you know what that's nice to hear thank you very much guys I've missed you guys as well wish it was in nicer circumstances yeah absolutely I wish we were celebrating today but do you know what I think Wayne summed up everything very well but I just think I haven't seen England play well under Thomas Tuchel for longer than 20 minutes, under his whole reign as manager.

4:55There was a quote when he took over where he said he feels like in the past England have played like a team trying not to lose rather than the team. He said that about Euro 2024, didn't he? He said he saw a team. I thought of that quite last night. He said he saw a team that were too scared to lose rather than wanting to win. Absolutely. And that was what he was essentially brought into change. and he's gone and done more of the same. If that was Gareth Southgate, we'd have been, you know, we'd have crucified him, unfortunately. But yeah, I think, look, I would have loved to have seen a bit more attacking intent.

5:32I would have loved to have seen a few more attacking players get on the field and just show a bit more, I don't know, a bit more flair and cutting edge and not sit back. I mean, bringing Dan Burnham, I mean, it's not the kind of substitution I want to see when you're trying to get into a World Cup final. It was interesting, something, Wayne, I don't know if you saw this from where you were standing, but just before England scored, Thomas Tuchel, so I have a pitch side seat, Thomas Tuchel called Marcus Rashford him. And he often does this with his subs, and I guess this is something managers do a lot.

6:04He pulled him over and was pointing something out on the pitch and telling him to watch. And then I noticed Marcus Rashford was warming up and stopping and watching. so I think that potentially before Anthony Gordon scored Marcus Rashford was maybe going to come on and then obviously a goal changes everything I get that but it does make you think Yeah but I think that's like for like in this so if the same thing would happen if that was the case and Rashford scored then the same thing would happen where we dropped deep so I just think I would have liked to have seen a bit more even you know whether you say Gordon off or whoever you take off from that point of view, you have to have players being front-footed and getting to the ball.

6:47And too many times throughout the tournament, as Kay said, we haven't played well really in the tournament. What gave me real hope was hearing what he said at the half-time in the Croatia game, where he said, we're going to lose, lose our way of playing, and we go and attack the game. And I thought, do you know what? I really like that. And then if you look at it, the Norway game, the Mexico game, we got lucky really in terms of in Mexico, they haven't really got the quality that Argentina have got and I sat there watching the game with Joe Hart and Mika and Chappers I said to them, we're going to lose this game I said we cannot sit back like this, Messi worked the game out, worked out where the space was and we even though we had five to back at the time we had no one who could get near him we allowed him to dictate and do what he wanted kept getting crosses in the box popping up in areas which we just didn't seem to be able to handle.

7:41And then when we won the ball, we were just putting it back to them. And then even if we got too extra time at 1-1, the changes made meant that we couldn't change actually our structure. So more of the same would have happened. So he put us in a position where it was all or not. And if we conceded, that's it. That was what really annoyed me. I feel like we took too many players that were doing similar roles. Do you know what, guys? Do you know what? Should we just try and move it on? because I can't actually take, I've watched and listened to every podcast, every show so far. And I almost feel like now we just need to try and flip it forward.

8:18I know it's really hard when we're all in the moment. I think we have some great talent coming through for four years time. I think you look at people like Rio and Gamora. But Kay, are we looking at four years? What about 2028? There's a home Euros on the horizon. Well, yeah, I mean, that as well. But I mean, it just depends who's in charge. All right then. Is that man's, Wayne, I'm interested to know your thoughts on that because you've been very pro Thomas Tuchel throughout. I mean, we sat here, it was literally a couple of days ago before Argentina and that feels like a lifetime ago now, given what we've seen.

8:50But people are asking, should he still go forward? He signed that new contract before the World Cup, didn't he? He did and I think he should. I think he should. and it's tough isn't it I think you have to gauge what the reaction is from the fans from the players now I think these next two days are really important in terms of what we've heard all tournaments the togetherness of the players and the whole group there which is great but when you go out to a competition the real important time now is the next two days which if there is anyone feeling you should have played more games the group hasn't quite been as together as we thought it had, you'll hear it in the next two days.

9:34So I think that's really key to whether he stays or not. I think the FA, they told us that Tom Susha was coming in to win the World Cup and take us to the next level. Was that a mistake, do you think, Wayne? Saying that's outwardly. I think if they'd tell you that, but then before the World Cup they give him a new two-year contract, it's a little bit strange. If his priority was to win the World Cup, then you get a two-year contract before you actually go to the World Cup. That's a bit strange. Do you not think that was because there were so many clubs looking for a manager like Man United? And I also think it was to stop the questions.

10:10They didn't want the narrative around this whole World Cup to be about his future. Yeah, no, of course that could be the case, but I still think that's a bit strange because then if something happens like this has happened, then you're tied into it or you've got to sack him. But for me, I think he is a top-class manager and what the top managers do, they learn from the mistakes and they improve and get better. So from my point of view, I don't see anyone else out there at the minute, unless you go and get Pep Guardiola. If Pep Guardiola is available, then maybe you go and get him. But I still think we stick with him.

10:49I think he's made, I said this before, I think he's made mistakes with the squad selection. you can't expect to win a World Cup and have a squad who are just happy and happy around the camp you need debate you need players to you know have conversations and not agree with you I think first of all that's why I said I really like what Jude Belenham said you need players with their own personalities their own opinions their own character to question the manager at times and top managers like that they like that then you can debate it so yeah I think looking back he'll have regrets but I still think he's as good as any manager out there to lead us into the next tournament in my opinion I think what you said on squad selection is key I think you know that's sort of where I feel like France would win games even before a ball was kicked because people would look at their front three and they'd look at their bench and they'd already be like trying to set up not to lose a game In terms of do I want Thomas Tuchel to continue as manager?

11:54No, I don't. I don't think that I've seen anything apart from that 10, 20 minutes against Croatia that showed that he has, he's going to provide us with a winning side. And I think we, honestly, I think we played better under Lee Carsley. Yeah, it's a very different environment though, isn't it? In a different situation. Yeah, it's a different pleasure, isn't it? And I think I'm looking at it. And listen, if he gets sacked, it wouldn't surprise me greatly anyway. But how I'm looking at it, I'm looking at it thinking, right, what managers, if we do sack him, what managers are we going to bring in?

12:33And I don't think there's anyone out there who's as good as Thomas Tuchel, unless Guardiola and stuff. But the big thing for me is he's not experienced at World Cups. We had the exact same with Capello. The World Cup is different and you need to feel that environment and think now he's felt it. Yeah, this was going to say, like, if you look at anybody and all of the club managers that people were lording, people like Pochettino, Nagelsmann, Ancelotti and Thomas Tuchel, they've all failed miserably at the World Cup. And the people that have actually done well are Scaloni and De La Fuente, who are international team managers.

13:07They've come through the system as well. They've come through the system in Argentina and Spain. Yeah. Can I just point out one thing, though? You say it's been a massive failure. They have still got to the semifinals and lost to the world champions, OK? so it's not like we went out against Congo which at one point it looked like we might No, but Kelly, as Wayne said I think we were lucky in a lot of those games There were elements in all these games where I do feel like luck took us over the line and look, you need that in international tournaments but England don't beat top 10 teams away from home soil in World Cups I think people look at it as a failure in terms of we've got 17 minutes, 15 minutes to go, we won the love to get to the World Cup final so that's why I was so disappointed, if I hadn't seen it go and win 2-3-0 then you're like, you know what we had no chance there but we were in such a good position and I felt the change had killed us and then the second thing on that is, I think it's a failure because the FA told us he's coming in to win the World Cup Absolutely.

14:15So they've put that on them, that's on the FA. So now that's why people will be looking and saying, well, he's failed. Yous have failed. What are you going to do? And that's the big pressure they have, whether they keep Thomas Tuchel or not. What does he need to do now, Wayne? Other than obviously he's got a lot of time to reflect the beauty of international. Well, he's got a third place playoff on Saturday, which is another conversation really in terms of the mentality of England going into that and how you pick yourself up for it and the kind of game it is. but what does he need to do now? What learnings will he take?

14:47Obviously, you won't have the players back until September. Well, I always think, and I got this advice from quite a lot of experienced managers, you have to pick your best players. And the better the players, the better the managers you are. So I just felt we had so much quality left at home. You know, you think you've got Trent, you've got Phil Foden, you've got Cole Palmer you've got Harry Maguire who I think would have played in this tournament was more than capable of playing in this tournament experienced in this competition I think you have to pick your best players and if you as Argentina and there's no disrespect to these players and you see Dan Byrne Conter coming onto the pitch or you think we're going to go a bit front foot to players who can hold the ball and drive it up the pitch in a full phone or a call payment.

15:41I think that makes a big difference into their mindset to join the game. But now, does he need to start looking ahead to 2028? Should he be laying the foundations? You get so little time with your players as an international manager. So from that first international break, which I think is the end of September, should he now be looking forward to that and who's going to be available to him in two years? Two years is a long time, you know. In football, two years is such a long time. And I feel like there's going to be players that we don't, we're not even talking about yet that might come to the fore and surprises.

16:12There could be players in under-18 teams, under-21 teams. We've seen it with Maynou. He was playing under-18s and then all of a sudden he's starting a European Championship final two years later. So we don't know what will work because you see it now of the young players, but you don't know which players are going to develop and maybe be pushing. So it's hard to look too far ahead. I think he has to look, firstly, is he going to be manager or not? and then secondly how does the squad look for the meetup in September? I think what you said was key there you have to take your best players and I feel like sometimes you need a plan B and I think when you have got a plethora of different sort of profiles of great players then you can switch it up mid-game and be able to provide a different answer to the question being posed so you know he has people like Kobi Mainu you've got people like Adam Morton that didn't make it to the World Cup finals people like that that can, you know, that press resistant, can give you line-breaking passes, that can provide a different sort of solution than Declan Rice or Elliot Anderson.

17:21There was things there, Kay, which I spoke about before the tournament. And then now, you're still asking the question, now why was Jordan Anderson there? You've got Kobe Maynou there, who didn't play a minute. You've got Ivan Toney, who'd come on a couple of minutes. You've got Ollie Watkins who didn't really play. Shalabov, why he got called up, I don't know. You've got players there who can do something and give you more and release that tension and stress on the likes of Declan Rice and Elliot Antony. Harry Kane shouldn't have played in the third game. He should have rested. And then all of a sudden he's a little bit fresher.

17:58So there's things he's done which I think he'll 100 % regret some of the decisions he made. Do we need to have a conversation around the number nine position and Harry Kane because he's been so fundamental to everything England have done. His goals and Jews got us this far, but he's not getting any younger. He'll probably still be around for the Euros, will he? But then the next World Cup, I think he's about to turn 33. He turns 33 this month. And I know we've seen Messi and Ronaldo defy the odds, but there needs to be a succession plan, doesn't there, Wayne? Well, it depends who's there coming through at the minute.

18:35there's no one in world football who's better than him at that position Earl Harland maybe so you just have to see how he is over the next few years you know let's not forget he scored 70 goals this season he scored 6 World Cup goals during the tournament so I wouldn't rule him out just Jan I should have framed that question differently I'm not ruling him out necessarily but I'm saying that at some point England have to have a succession plan don't they They need to manage him better because we've literally just said that we've got Harry Kane up front and that's it. And, you know, I think throughout his career, you know, I know players wouldn't sign for Tottenham because Harry Kane was there, because there's no point.

19:18You're not getting in the team. Which is a massive compliment to him, by the way. Yeah, no, yeah, 100%. So, Nicholas Jackson, very good player, went to Bayern Munich, barely played Bayern Munich because he's that good. and he is an ultimate professional, he looks after himself. He does look the way he holds himself and carries himself, his body. He looks tired, more tired than he probably is at times. But at the minute, for me, that wouldn't be as big of an issue than Harry Kane being at the next tournament for me. So, yeah, I think we want more number 9s to come through or they need to be given an opportunity as well.

20:00like in the friendly games for instance we've barely seen anyone else play that position so we don't know how they'd be for England. This is summer at its peak. Whole Foods Market Summer Fruit Fest is your invitation to eat the season. Fresh, organic and bursting with flavor. Start your day with peaches and organic blueberries and yogurt. Build a grazing board with fresh fruit, prosciutto and artisanal cheese. Then fire up the grill with no antibiotics ever proteins and fresh produce. Savour the season. Shop Summer Fruit Fest at Whole Foods Market. Throughout this World Cup, David Beckham has been everywhere.

20:37In the stands, in commercials, during ad breaks, sorry, hydration breaks. Which is wild when you consider he was once the most hated man in Britain. I turned around to a fan and he was screaming about my wife and about Brooklyn right to my face and wouldn't even look away. How do you go from that to being a billionaire? That's next time on Big Lives. Listen to Big Lives wherever you get your podcasts.

21:11It was an interesting point I saw that our three strikers at this tournament will be 34 or over in four years' time. Even, I mean, Dominic Zlanki wasn't here, of course, but... And Rashford will be 32. I still think of Rashford as being a young lad, so that blew my mind a little bit. And obviously 32 is still a fine age to play football, but it's just a longer term thing, I think. And it's, yeah, it's just something that concerns me because we all love Harry Kane, but he can't play forever, can he, Kay? I think you've got to be positive. I think you've got to be positive. I think there was, at one point we were thinking we're not going to have any team that was going to get to finals and stuff, but yet we found the players.

21:49I think you look at who's coming through, Rhea and Gamoa, you've got Max Dalman. I mean, I know they're wingers and whatever, but you've got some really good, exciting young players coming through the ranks. And I feel like there's probably a number nine somewhere that we haven't even thought about yet. Does it have to be a number nine? Can it be a false nine? Well, I mean, there's always talk of possibly having Jude Bellingham play a false nine or Anthony Gordon playing a makeshift number nine there as well. But I feel like that's a bit overblown. And listen, you're not going to find another Harry Kane out of nowhere.

22:24I think a lot of countries played with strikers that weren't probably to that level, but they still found a way. But I feel like we've got to be positive. There's a lot of players coming through. And I think if we don't have a number nine to the level of Harry Kane, we've got to look at players in other positions that are going to find a solution to that and provide the goals. But at England, you can't really think of the long term. even being honest it's what's in front of you then and you can have long term goals in players and developing players on a long term basis but at England if you're playing well for your club you normally get picked for England so it's on the clubs to develop them and England to try and just help them and the player obviously help England so you can't look at a player and say you know what we're going to develop him and in six years time we're going to have him play for England it's more you're relying on the club to develop the players for you and then you get picked and rewarded for playing well for your club so we have got some really good young players coming through some good players in the under 21 teams academies and stuff coming through that's where you're looking and hoping that they can break into their first team and then if they do that and sustain that can they you know go and perform for England but it's yeah I think at the minute there will be players who will drop out of this squad.

23:50There was players who were there just to be a good teammate. Yeah, and there was, let's not beat around the bush, there was players who were there to be a good teammate, you know, I think everywhere Harry Kane went, Dan Byrne was stood next to him, don't know if he was his hide man. Whatever, but there was players there who were good teammates, who was better quality of players, sat at home. So I think that's the key, is whoever is playing well and deserves to be there. but there's exception to that there's players who play on moments and make the difference and we didn't pick enough of them players for me Is it about the balance though?

24:28Because I guess you do need the good teammates you don't want the ones that are going to disrupt but I guess you're just saying the balance wasn't quite right Yeah well listen if I was playing if you're asking me do you want someone who you're going to play on the Playstation with and be around the hotel and have a bit of banter with and be a good teammate or do you want someone next to you who's going to help you win games, then I thought my answer would be. Yeah, fair enough, I guess. The other thing, I think we've spoken about moments a lot and Harry Kane kept talking about hero moments throughout the tournament.

24:57And they came from Jude Bellingham, Harry Kane kind of from Anthony Gordon yesterday almost. I look at a team like Spain and they're such a team. Do you know what I mean? How do England get that team? Do you know what I mean? Because we've got the players. They've still got players that have those moments. Yeah, I agree. That's what I'm saying. So how do England get that? and the team? Well, I think Spain is a country and England, in fairness to them, to the FA, they're trying to develop an identity and a way of playing, which what was strange with the Tuchel coming in as manager, they went away from that.

25:33So they have done it with Southgate coming through and this is the identity of England, this is how they wanted to look. And they went away from that with Tuchel purely to try and win the World Cup. so that's why they've got a big decision to make where Spain I was speaking to Asper La Quetta when we'd done the games back in Salford and I was asking them about how they develop plays in Spain so when you're looking at a long term plan Spain all the teams all the Spanish teams they play in a certain way and that's why they're so good technically positionally they're really good the little triangles they find and then so when they move up a level it's just the same but better quality of players to play with which is then that's why we see so many young players come to Barcelona in particular young Spanish players playing because they know the system they know how they want to play and if you go to a club level the club and they right the way through the academy should play the same way because then you're developing a style of play which is easier for players to adapt to when they move up to higher levels Probably a similar thing with France as well isn't it?

26:41Like you look at with their system at Clairefontaine You see the amount of players that they've produced that oftentimes people are saying there's like two sets of teams that France could put out that could probably get far into the competition. I mean, I know they probably went out with a win part, but you still look at the players that they're able to produce that all play together at all those levels. Unfortunately, we get players winning at under 17 and under 21 levels and then they don't play together at international level in the men's game. Well, if you look at Spain, you go from Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta, and now you've got Rodri, who is literally a carbon copy of Busquets.

27:21You've got Pedri in there. You've got Olmo, who's a fantastic player. The players they've got, it's almost a younger version of the great players we've seen in the past. And that's because they're probably quite stubborn in what they're doing. And where football evolves into different ways and different styles, Spain just stick to their way of football and that's why they've been successful over the last 20 years So Wayne, if you're saying we should stick with Tuchel but we need to find that culture and identity, how do the two kind of marry together how do they come together to be successful?

27:55It depends if they're still going to go with the identity they want as a as a as the culture the identity, this is England, this is what we want to be like, how we want to play or it's almost like How do we want to play? Well, it's just to win. I take that. No, but it's almost like with Tuchel, they went rogue. Let's have it right, they went rogue with Thomas Tuchel because there were some good managers there who potentially would have jumped at the opportunity to manage England. But they went rogue and they put all the eggs in one basket and said, Thomas Tuchel is here to win us the World Cup.

28:31So now that's why the decision they've got is huge, whether they back him going into the Euros. I think the fans' reaction, I haven't seen any. I flew this morning from Atlanta to New York. So I haven't seen any of the reaction. But I've seen a few fans yesterday after the game. And everyone of them said the same thing about the changes and why did we go so defensive? And I think that could pile pressure on the FA. What has the reaction been like? Kay, you're actually back at home. I mean, I've seen bits online. I think everybody's been massively disappointed. I think I've seen a lot of shouts that were praising Wayne for what he was saying post-match as well.