French wildfire ‘completely unprecedented’ says Macron

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0:39Éléonore Caroit:Hello, I'm James Kamarasamy. Thank you for downloading the BBC's World Tonight podcast for Monday the 27th of July, a race against time to contain the forest fires in France as the flames approach the city of Bordeaux. President Macron has said it's the hardest situation since World War II. We'll hear from our correspondent in the region and speak to a French government minister about the response. Also on the programme, as he prepares to make a big speech on social care reform in England, what can Andy Burnham learn from the experience of other countries? We hear a defence of smart glasses from someone with a visual impairment.

1:14Éléonore Caroit:What's at stake for Donald Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu when they meet in the White House tomorrow? And should voting be compulsory?

1:27Éléonore Caroit:The sound of wildfires which are causing such destruction and disruption to lives across parts of southern France as well as Spain. Like the winds which have been fanning the flames, the public comments of politicians have been changeable. At times over the past few days they have tried to be reassuring. Today less so. The French Interior Minister said the big wildfire in the southwestern Gironde region had a life of its own. And tonight, after meeting firefighters and emergency workers in that part of France, President Macron offered a very stark assessment. We have a situation today that's the hardest we've ever seen, the hardest since the Second World War.

2:09There are now more than 160 ,000 hectares that have been burnt

2:14Éléonore Caroit:and the season is far from over. Well, that is the longer term. In the short term, another heatwave due to hit France this week, with flames now just nine miles from the city of Bordeaux. More than 200 ,000 people have been evacuated in France so far, as well as another 120 ,000 in Spain. But there could be worse to come, according to Jérôme Steff, the mayor of Sestas, a town just south-west of Bordeaux. If the fire reach the city of Bordeaux, it means that we have to evacuate at least one million people. So it shows you how this fire is enormous. This is the most highest risk we have never, never, never seen in France.

3:01It will be the fire of the century.

3:03Éléonore Caroit:The BBC's Gwyn Loda is in the nearby town of Saint-Jean-des-Lacs. He told me what he'd seen. We arrived in Bordeaux earlier today and we travelled west immediately into the area that's been worst affected by these wildfires over the past few days. We were allowed to do so as journalists, but there were several police cordons we had to pass through to do so. Ordinary members of the public weren't allowed because there's still a high level of danger here. We were driving through ghost towns to all intents and purposes. Several small villages and towns have been almost completely emptied of the local population.

3:40People have fled from the flames and there were several bushfires breaking out as we were making our way further west. We got then to a small village called Le Tomple and there the fire was raging out of control. We witnessed the local crews trying to tackle to douse the blames but needing air assistance to do so effectively. and a plane and a helicopter were called and dropped a bright red fire retardant on the flames that were rising several feet above the ground. They did manage to douse those flames temporarily, at least giving some relief to those firefighters. We've left that area now, but as we were leaving, the local crews, the emergency services, were still battling the blazes which were still burning in areas around there.

4:29And these fires, they do burn and move so quickly. And what of the weather? What are the conditions like? It's dry. There was a feeling this morning that there may be a temporary relief because it was slightly cooler than it has been. But it is meant to get warmer again. We're expecting temperatures in the region of around 40 degrees Celsius in the coming days, which doesn't help things one bit. There's no rain at all forecast for this area over the coming days, and that's obviously causes a problem. The ground is bone dry and there's so much vegetation here. It's a really rural area with sort of small villages dotted around.

5:05And we've seen, we've witnessed the fires once they get hold of that vegetation, they can rip through an area really, really quickly. And the fire service don't really know how to deal with that. We've seen trenches being dug near roads and near electric cables. We've also seen electric cables felled, burnt because of the fires in some areas. but they're trying to do all they can to build trenches, to stop flames from leaping from one area to another, to douse with water some other areas. But it does feel at the moment as though they're fighting a losing battle.

5:39Éléonore Caroit:And there's a big city not too far away. The mayor of Bordeaux is saying, look, it's several miles away, but it sounds as though no one's able to give any kind of guarantees that the flames won't at some point even reach there. That's the terrifying thought here. I spoke earlier today with a woman from Aberystwyth in West Wales originally. I'm obviously here for Welsh Language News, and she told me that she's going to move from the city. She's lived there 16 years now, but she's taking her children and moving north because she fears now the city itself is in danger. The fires are still around nine miles away from the edge of the city.

6:20And I've covered several wildfires now in different countries. They can change direction. It all depends on wind speeds and wind directions. But she's decided she's had enough. She's living in fear there that the fire could reach the outskirts of that city. It's a serious situation in this part of France. I think if those flames get within reach of Bordeaux, a city of 850 ,000 people, I mean, that would turn into a catastrophic event then.

6:46Éléonore Caroit:BBC's Gwynne Loder speaking to me from the town of Saint-Jean-de-Lac. Well, the Spanish government has said the country is facing a decisive two days to control the wildfires which are burning there. But let's hear a bit more now from the French government. Eleanor Carrois is a French minister for international partnerships. I spoke to her earlier. We began with that assessment by President Macron of the situation that it's the most difficult since the Second World War. It's absolutely unseen. The amount of houses that have been affected, of people that are being displaced. We're talking about 200 ,000.

7:22We're talking about 150 ,000 hectares that have burned already. So that is clearly totally unseen. We've had very difficult fire seasons in 2022, but this is not exactly the same scale. Everyone is mobilized, the ministers, the government, president. And we're also extremely grateful for international cooperation and the European civil protection mechanism that has helped us also respond. and, you know, stabilize the situation.

7:50Éléonore Caroit:Stabilize the situation, but is it fair to say at the moment it is not under control? It is very difficult to say that it is under control. Just to give you an idea, we have 30 to 40 new fires every day. So that can be small new fires, but can also be larger ones. And the most difficult ones, the one, for instance, in the Bordeaux region and Gironde, are stabilized in the sense that they're not going as fast as they could be if we weren't, you know, working on this, but it's still not over. Well, the mayor of Bordeaux has said he is bracing for all eventualities. So you can't say yet that that major city is safe, can you?

8:28No, you can't. What you can say, though, is that the fire is not progressing as fast as it would, if not for the intervention of many firefighters and, again, all of the aircraft and all the means that have been put in place. but it is still too early to say whether we will be able to stop it on time. Although the situation looks better than it looked yesterday, it is still a very difficult situation.

8:54Éléonore Caroit:Although what is happening seems to be the winds are changing and what looked okay a few hours previously, suddenly when you project forward could be, this is what the President said, tomorrow could be more complicated. Yes, it is very difficult to say because as you rightly put it, it also depends on the weather conditions and it also depends on our ability to stop many fires that are ongoing at the same time. Our main priority is people's protection, people's lives, and this is also the reason why so many people have been evacuated from their homes so that everyone stays safe. You've mentioned the planes, which are clearly key to try to fight the fires from the air, and I do want to put to you the criticism that has come from some quarters, A pilot speaking on France Info Radio saying that of the 12 Canadair, those are the planes that are used for dropping the water or the fire retardant that France owns, we only have five of them available.

9:48Éléonore Caroit:It's just scandalous. How do you respond to that criticism? What is happening is that the Canadair need to be, you know, restored and repaired as you move forward. They've been used much more than they normally are. And so they also need to be put on the ground for a few hours so that they can fly again. So you don't have the 12 flying at the same time, but those are the ones that France possesses. You also have other planes, helicopters that have also been lent to France and firefighters from all over Europe and other countries also, you know, Switzerland, Sweden that are also on the ground right now as we speak.

10:24And you also have the A400M, which is a military plane that has been used for the first time to also prevent fires. So if you compare the fleet that France has in comparison with other countries, we have a rather large fleet and also many, many pilots. But the truth is, again, the situation that we're facing right now is one that is really exceptional.

10:49Éléonore Caroit:Also, some concerning assessments coming out of the European Commission saying that this wildfire season could last until early November. Another heat wave coming in the next few days. Is France ready for that? No country is ready and can be ready for the urgency of what we're facing. And again, you can adapt your system, your countries, your cities to a certain extent. But this is really something that is exponential. And France has been extremely active and vocal in climate diplomacy. I do hope that this will open the eyes of other countries and other leaders and that we will continue addressing these challenges.

11:26Éléonore Caroit:Eleanor Carroix, the French Minister for International Partnerships. Coming up later, should the UK take this advice from the former Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull? One of the things you could usefully do here is adopt the Australian electoral system. Compulsory voting, compulsory preferential voting, independent electoral commission. Compulsory voting. Well, Australia's had it for more than a century and more than 90 % of eligible voters turn up to the polls there. We'll explore whether the same fix could address the turnout here. at the last general election, it was below 60%. Now, after some of the smaller-scale announcements of Andy Burnham's first week in Number 10, he's due to give a speech this week on one of the big issues that he wants to prioritise, the reform of England's social care system.

12:13Éléonore Caroit:In his interview with Laura Koonsberg for this evening's Panorama, the Prime Minister reiterated what was at stake, although he wouldn't be drawn on when he might be able to fix the system. whatever political capital I have I will put in to fixing broken social care and I would not want to leave office without having brought in the substantial change the new system of social care that you describe I can't put a timeline on it right here right now if we don't do it the NHS will collapse under the weight of trying to care for people who've really not really needed to end up in the NHS system. So what can Andy Burnham and his team learn from the experience of other countries?

12:55Éléonore Caroit:Well last week the Independent Health and Social Care Think Tank, the Nuffield Trust, published a report called Sharing the Costs of Social Care How Other Countries Balance State and Individual Contributions and we're joined now by Natasha Currie who is Deputy Director of Policy at the Nuffield Trust. Good evening. Good evening. So you have looked at 11 other countries what were your main conclusions about the current funding system in England and how it compares? Yeah, so we looked at 11 other countries and regions across the world. And while there's no perfect system anywhere, everywhere is a series of design choices and trade-offs.

13:30There's a lot to learn, I think, from elsewhere. What really struck us from the work was just how much of an outlier England is and how ungenerous the social care offer is here, compared to pretty much everywhere else in the world, even some of our nearest neighbours.

13:45Éléonore Caroit:And when you say ungenerous, what exactly do you mean? So at the moment, if you have care needs, you go to your council, you have a needs assessment, your needs have to be really quite high to be able to enter the system. But unlike other systems, you also have to have a financial means assessment at that point. If you're found to have savings or assets like property that are worth more than£23 ,000, you're not eligible for any state support whatsoever. So there's a really steep cliff edge and you're then liable for 100 % of your costs. There's no limit to that and there's no certainty about what you might end up paying.

14:23Éléonore Caroit:And in other countries, even if you are wealthy, you get some access to free social care. Yeah, pretty much everywhere else we looked, everybody gets something. And there's a spectrum of generosity within that. The most generous country we've come across is Denmark, where all care is free at the point of delivery. Although you still have to pay accommodation costs in the care home, but the care element is completely free. And then beyond that, there's a number of different models. So in France, for example, everybody gets something that is relative to their need and means. So even the wealthy might get maybe 10 % of their care cost paid by the state.

15:04In other countries like Japan and Australia, you have a care need and you're given a monthly allowance, a set allowance, that's regardless of your means. And then you share the rest of the costs between you and the state according to your financial ability to pay.

15:19Éléonore Caroit:And of those countries, which do you think has a system that is most applicable to England? Well, I mean, it depends where we want to set our ambition, really. I mean, the question that we need to answer now as a society is what sort of care system do we want and need to support us as our population ages and our needs become greater. And that's the question that we need to explore as a society. And that's what the Casey Commission is about to kick off with its national conversation. And that is something you think is crucial? I think so. So when we've looked at other countries that have undergone this process, and we are about 30 years behind most other countries in doing this.

16:01They have managed to secure public support by having a quite frank conversation with their public about what the problems are in the current system and what they want as a society and an economy. We haven't ever done that. We've always started our debate with the question, what will it cost and who pays? And as we've seen over the last 20, 30 years, that has not led to successful reform. Every time a politician has proposed change, It's become difficult to push through. And that's partly because public awareness of what social care is, how the system works, is really, really low. So most people, well, about 30 % of people think that it's free as part of the NHS.

16:40And it comes as a horrible surprise to people that it's not.

16:44Éléonore Caroit:Well, you mentioned the NHS. And as we heard Andy Burnham in his interview with Laura Koonsberg today drew the link. He said the NHS will collapse if social care isn't reformed. What did you make of that? Well, I think he's right to recognise that social care and the NHS need to work seamlessly together so that people don't fall through the gaps. But I would argue that there's a broader reason for reforming social care and that extends way beyond just propping up the NHS. I mean, there's a moral argument. Social care is a support system for people to enable them to lead independent and dignified lives.

17:21So I think there's a moral argument there. We know that people at the moment aren't able to access the care that they need or afford the care that they need. There's also a social and economic argument. So there's people who are unable to get the care that they need to participate in their communities, in their societies. We have disabled adults who can't get the support to enable them to work. And then we've got about five million unpaid carers who are trying to balance work and other responsibilities and caring, which is making it very difficult for them to stay in employment and also to look after their own financial and physical mental health for their futures.

17:56So there's a raft of reasons, I think. The NHS is just one of them.

18:02Éléonore Caroit:Natasha Carey, Deputy Director of Policy at the Nuffield Trust. Thanks very much. When Donald Trump meets the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in the White House tomorrow, it will be their eighth meeting during President Trump's second term, but their first since the two countries launched the war against Iran in February. Well, the fighting there may be paused for the moment, but the failure to end the war has placed a considerable strain on the relationship between two leaders who have always stressed just how close they are and who are both facing elections in the coming months. On his way to Michigan on Air Force One, the US president spoke to reporters about the war in Iran and he said the two sides are still talking.

18:37They requested a meeting. They would not have requested the meeting if we were doing poorly.

18:44Éléonore Caroit:The only reason they want to meet is because we've been hitting them very hard. How much patience do you have left? I have a lot of patience. I have plenty of time. Plenty of time. Their whole shoreline's wiped out. The Strait is in very good shape. And we're talking right now. You know, they wanted to talk. So what about the talks between Israel and the United States? How important is tomorrow's encounter between Mr Trump and Mr Netanyahu? Felicia Schwartz is diplomatic correspondent for the Politico website in Washington. It's hugely important for Netanyahu. He has been angling for this meeting for months since at least April, according to my sources.

19:26And he has a very tough election fight ahead of him in October in Israel. His relationship with Trump, his ability to, you know, bring Trump along or kind of cooperate with the U.S. on this fight against Iran is very important to his message to his voters. But I think for Trump, the fact that it has taken so long to schedule this meeting that he and his team are frustrated with Netanyahu, that we're seeing those divisions play out, whether it's in remarks of J.D. Vance or others. It's very clear that the White House and for Trump, they don't put as much stock into this visit. But I do think they have a full book of business to talk about.

20:06Éléonore Caroit:You mentioned the remarks of J.D. Vance. I mean, he is one of the senior Republicans who are taking a far more skeptical line towards Israel. I mean, even more so after the war in Iran and how it's played out. How does that play into this meeting? I know from my Israeli sources that they do understand that they have a problem with J.D. Vance, but also kind of the broader Republican Party. It used to be that Israel and Republicans were pretty well on common ground. It's a pretty, you know, meanwhile, while Democrats have kind of fallen out with Israel and Israel relies on billions of dollars of assistance from in military assistance every year from the U.S., this bipartisan support is extremely important for them, for their country, for their security.