Parliament votes against a fresh attempt to legalise assisted dying

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

0:30and more options to their lineup, can shop at machinefinder.com. Booyah! Apple Vacations, where your story starts. The Friends and Family Sale is here at Apple Vacations. Book by September 24th and save up to 50 % on all-inclusive vacations with instant savings. Whether it's a getaway with friends or a family vacation, there's always a reason to make more memories with your favorite people. Travel through August 2027 and start planning your getaway today at applevacations.com or with your trusted travel advisor.

1:08Hello, I'm Sean Lay. Thanks so much for downloading the BBC's World Tonight podcast from Friday the 9th of September. I've been at Westminster talking to opponents and supporters of assisted dying after the idea was killed off in the House of Commons. Supporters say they'll try again, but is it time for a different approach to terminal illness? A quarter of a century after the 9-11 attacks, We hear from the last person to escape the second tower of the World Trade Centre before it collapsed, and from America's poet laureate at the time with his elegiac tribute, The Names. Fighting his return to Yemen, threatening another transit waterway for global trade, and staying at sea, a travel writer's verdict on the Cornwall to Silly Isles ferry known as the Vomit Comet.

1:50If you can bear it, stay with us. It was emotional, often it was personal. The assisted dying bill being debated by MPs today was identical to the proposal they'd approved last year by a majority of 23, before it ran out of time in the House of Lords. This time, the debate was more fractious and attended by fewer MPs. Claire Hazelgrove, a Bristol MP, spoke about her mother. Mum's pain was excruciating. She had access to good palliative care. But what we learned, the hardest of ways, is that not all pain can be palliated. I will never forget seeing her writhing and screaming in pain at points for weeks.

2:33None of us will. And I know of no deity that would want that. Since last year's debate, Ashley Dalton, a Lancashire MP, has spoken of receiving a diagnosis of stage 4 breast cancer. She accused proponents of assisted dying of exaggerating the number of terminally ill people whose death is painful. It's nothing short of irresponsible to scaremonger people like me into believing our deaths will be horrific when all the evidence suggests that with access to good palliative care, deaths are on the whole gentle. The answer is not to terrify people and their families. It's to sort out palliative care and social care first.

3:13Last year's majority of 23 MPs in favour, this year became a majority of 16 against. Aside from the number of MPs taking part being fewer, what may have made the difference was those who changed their mind, including a London MP, Janet Dabby. Following my vote in favour of assisted dying for the following two nights, I had nightmares about dying and death. I had to wrestle with myself, knowing that I was not entirely comfortable with the decision I had made, and my conscience was not at peace, and I cannot again in good conscience vote for the bill. In fact, I wish there was a bill before this chamber that we could have all gotten behind, as there's so much that needs to be done in our society.

3:54I decided that if the opportunity should arise again, I'd be voting against assisted dying. Some of those who took part in the debate inside the House of Commons. Earlier today, I went to hear from those outside who'd gathered on Parliament Square, hoping to influence the decision and waiting for the result. Let me go. Let me go. When I decide. When I decide. It's my time. It's my time. My name is Christy Anson and I'm down here demonstrating today because I have incurable breast cancer and I've been living with that for 13 years. I'm getting very much nearer that end now, unfortunately. So if the law were to go through now, it wouldn't be available for me.

4:49But I would love to think that I helped make a change for the future and that other people don't have to live with the knowledge of having a terminal illness and knowing that they could possibly have a very difficult end. My name is Lucy Doyle and I'm down here because my mum died of stage 4 brain cancer and eight months before she passed she had a huge seizure. The final three or four months before she passed away were very, very difficult for her. She was in pain but she wasn't able to voice it. She just wasn't there really. We'd have to tap her lip in order to give her food. At that point where it was six to eight weeks, we were considering Switzerland, we were looking into all of the options because we knew that it was only going to get worse.

5:37But having laws like this means, you know, she didn't have to suffer in the way that she did. Go to Bill! Not the ill! Go to Bill! Not the ill! Hi, I'm Paul. I'm down here because it's so important to defend the right to live. There's a recent figures coming out of America, 63 % of people took to be killed because they saw themselves as a burden. And no liberal, modern, compassionate society should ever force anybody to a conclusion they're a burden. I think this is the most dangerous bill we've had in Parliament ever. It will make hospital waiting lists shorter, which will be nice for the government.

6:15It will bring in inheritance tax earlier, which will be nice for the government. Order, order. The ayes to the right, 270. The noes to the left, 286. Yes! Go! Go! Go!

6:38Were you surprised by the result? It was a bit surprising, but I think with the change of Prime Minister, Keir Starmer supported it. Andy Burnham has been neutral on it. that will have made the difference, I think. What people can't see is you're sitting here, you're a wheelchair user. Yeah, I am. How much has your disability influenced how you feel about this issue? A lot, because I was a child with polio and I think if this sort of legislation was in in the late 40s, 50s, children like me were already being left to die on the wards. But this bill was very specific in saying it would only be available would somebody who had a medical opinion that they would only have six months left to live.

7:20That's true, and that was how they started in Canada and Netherlands. There is a creep on this legislation, so we are very pleased about this. You've probably heard there the roar of relief and delight from the opponents of the bill. Let's go back and hear from Christy, who has breast cancer. I always thought it was going to be close, but I really thought it would come on our side. Yeah, again, I can't understand why the MPs aren't speaking for the people. Marisha, I think you're saying that whatever happened, this would have been too late for your family. Yeah, they were planning it to take at least four years to go through.

8:01I don't think I'll be here for that. But it's almost unimportant because this is about other people not having to experience what I've experienced. and living with a terminal or incurable illness like mine is very difficult and knowing that there was some choice at the end of life that would have made such a difference now. In terms of the future, not just for you but for your family, how are you going to try to manage the remaining time you have? This is really, really difficult but what I'm left with is unfortunately Unfortunately, the only choice I seem to have is to, at the end of life, decide to starve myself.

8:48I can't consider suicide personally because I can't bear the thought of somebody finding me. I don't want to go to Dignitas because I don't want my family to have to come back alone. So I feel very robbed of the choices and the only choices I've got left are very sad choices indeed. That's Chrissie Arnston. Well, Mari Tidball is an MP in South Yorkshire. She was born with a limb difference, which affects both her arms and her legs. She also now has a prosthesis on one of her legs. Like many people with disabilities, she had reservations about supporting the bill without safeguards, which she subsequently helped to draft.

9:28She voted in favour of the bill today. So how is she feeling at the outcome? What saddens me at this stage is that terminally ill people and their families will have to wait much longer for this overdue reform to take place. I've no doubt at all that assisted dying will come back before Parliament, but obviously not as soon as people would have wanted it to. We've done such a huge amount of work on the bill itself in the form that came to the chamber today. One supporter of the Bill standing in Parliament Square told me she was angry at the MPs who had failed to turn up. And she put it this way.

10:06She said, how can politicians lecture the public on the importance of voting when they don't show on such an important occasion? What's your feeling about that? I think sadness for those that were so desperate to have this as a choice available. I talked about my father's own experience in the chamber today, and it was a choice that he would like to have available. he's in hospital recovering from surgery in relation to cancer so for me it's actually about how we rally people together once again it's disappointing that colleagues didn't attend or weren't able to attend for all sorts of reasons we're going to be hearing from dr zubia ahmed he said in the course of the debate i'm more convinced than ever that our social care and palliative care systems simply are not ready to meet the demands of this bill, at least not equitably.

10:59How do you answer that concern that the demand for this option might not be one that can be fulfilled with the system we have at present? I have a great respect for Zubair. We've worked together on other things. It's really important to hear those viewpoints. But for me personally, and I made this argument in my speech, having dignity in death and the access to a good death through the choice of assisted dying, as tightly drawn as it was in the bill set before Parliament today, acts as an anchor and a counterweight in that system because it then requires us to raise the quality of palliative care and adult social care.

11:43Marie Tibble MP. Well, I mentioned Zabir Ahmed, a transplant and vascular surgeon. He's also a former health minister. He's a Glasgow MP. Dr. Ahmed, thanks for being with us on The World tonight. Right. You said during the course of the debate, my job is to help move the discussion beyond the motive and the case study to level headed analysis. One of the things you mentioned was you're concerned that the six month diagnosis that someone is going to die in that period, which is kind of a trigger for people to being able to access assisted dying had this bill become law, that that's just not reliable.

12:16Can you explain that point? yeah i certainly can if you permit me for 20 seconds just to pay tribute to everyone that participated in the debate and all of the people outside because whatever views we have um no one has a monopoly on compassion and kindness we all come from that position and i hope from here we can find some consensus around other areas to to make life easier for people at the at the end of their lives but on your specific points of the six-month period i think it's it's particularly challenging in modern medicine. Even the concept of a terminal illness, as you heard from one of your listeners, is really now something that's historical.

12:55People are living many years, sometimes decades, with something that is inverted commas, terminal. Things that three years ago, four years ago, I would have given someone a six-month badge to live with. Now, they're being managed by a chronic disease. And also, the timeline is very arbitrary. I mean, as I said, also in my speech when I'm asked to make these kind of prognostications as a surgeon involved in cancer surgery and transplantation I am as often wrong as I am right right so it can be as kind of crude as the tossing of a coin. You also used your experience in your constituency to argue that coercive control is more subtle and more widespread than is appreciated.

13:38it is and it's a lot of the time um it's self-coercion and it's only when you start digging into people's lives when you're seeing them in their own home environments as i now get the privilege to do as a parliamentarian which i didn't get to do very often as a hospital doctor that you realize how people are living the decisions they're making the factors they are weighing up i mean i i remember in the early days of being a parliamentarian uh and i still do clinical work, someone coming to me and asking me to end their life. And it was quite clear as we drilled into that within the sanctity of a clinical environment that it was basically because she had suffered long-term unemployment in the Thatcher era and her family were on a sugary financial footing and she didn't want to be a burden on her children and grandchildren.

14:23And that's why she was asking me to end her life. Marie Timbal was saying there that she's confident that this is going to come back to the House of Commons and to Parliament at some point. Are you confident that you and others who are opposed to this change in the law can continue to fight it off? After all, last year it was a majority in favour, narrow majority. This year it's a majority against, narrow majority. And the debate does not seem to have shifted fully in one side or the other. No. Well, what I would say is that, you I think we've proven today as parliamentarians we are able to bring back pieces of legislation and debates at will when we want to.

15:03So in that sense, there's never an urgency about these things. And the other thing is, Sean, I don't want to fight anymore. I want to collaborate. I want to have a conversation. Because that's the way we get through this. It doesn't sound like that's happening. It seems to become more polarised. I'm optimistic at will. I'm optimistic at will because this vote is done, but the issue by no means is resolved. I think this is an opportunity to address palliative care and social care with additional salience. The Prime Minister wants to do that in the round anyway. And I think that leads us to a point where we can get consensus on a lot of these issues.

15:37And sometime in the future, if people want to bring it back, yes. But obviously, to govern is to choose. And if you have everything as a priority and nothing, nothing is a priority. And when you look at what the public wants, they want good palliative care services, good social care services as a priority. Dr Zabir Ahmed, thank you very much. Coming up later on The World Tonight. One very sea splashed passenger on board said to me, you either love this boat or you hate it. And I could see that playing out in the ship. As we said, lots of sick bag clutching people, but also just lots of cheers ringing out across the top deck when we slapped another wave and the water came spilling over.

16:17It's a passenger ship on the very southwest corner of England. and it's entering its final few runs before retirement. But would you have the stomach for it?

16:30John Deere is putting in work and putting up highlights. Oh man, look at those passes. Tillage, planting, harvesting. Three years in and these pre-owned machines are still at the top of their game. We're talking reliability, performance and long-term potential. And get this, these veteran machines can pick up the latest precision tech with ease. You know it, and fans ready to add John Deere certified pre-owned equipment and more options to their lineup can shop at machinefinder.com. Booyah! Apple Vacations, where your story starts. The Friends and Family Sale is here at Apple Vacations. Book by September 24th and save up to 50 % on all-inclusive vacations with instant savings.

17:11Whether it's a getaway with friends or a family vacation, there's always a reason to make more memories with your favorite people. Travel through August 2027 and start planning your getaway today at AppleVacations.com or with your trusted travel advisor.

17:3225 years on from the 11th of September 2001, the day of the 9-11 attacks in the United States. One plane brought down in a field in Pennsylvania by passengers fighting hijackers. one which struck the Pentagon in Washington, and two planes flown into a New York landmark. A quarter of a century on, the nearly 3 ,000 victims that day are commemorated even by those who they didn't live to meet.

18:13My Aunt Maria Teresa Conception Santillian, Tita Meritas, even though I never met you, I'm honored to be named after you. I hope I'm making you proud knowing you were a great daughter, sister, friend, and much more. I wish you could celebrate my birthday with me tomorrow. Please continue watching over us and know we all love and miss you. God bless America. And my grandfather and my namesake, Andrew Ira Rosenblum. Grandpa Andrew, me and my brothers, Maddie and Teddy, hear so much about you. You blessed us with the Knicks and this year we got our first championship. Knicks in five. You also cursed us with the Jets.

18:52We're still waiting on that one. Ryan Daniel Fitzgerald, beloved and forever missed son, big brother, cousin and friend, memories of happy times and laughing times with you bring everybody peace and joy every day.

19:18With the events of that morning, 2 ,977, beautiful souls were ripped from our world, and many more died in the weeks and years after horrible, grotesque injuries so many were sustained. Today we renew the sacred oath that we first swore in their names a quarter of a century ago. We will never, ever forget

20:08CHOIR SINGS

20:27plane ploughed into the World Trade Center the moment it was realised that this was no accident. The World Tonight's James Kumrasamy has been speaking to Ron DeFrancisco. Ron was the very last survivor to escape from the South Tower of the World Trade Center before it collapsed. I'm a Canadian. I was living and working in New York. I lived in New Jersey. It was a beautiful day, September 11th. The skies are vital blue. I worked on the 84th floor of the South Tower. I was a money market broker, so we traded US dollar and European currencies. I was at my desk taking calls when back to the right there was this loud explosion.

21:10Our building shuttered and we saw a huge fireball sucking in on itself and thousands upon thousands of pieces of paper floating in the air so we ran over to see what was going on and we saw a huge gaping hole in the side of the building but you have to understand given the size and scale of those buildings we just thought a light aircraft had gone off course and crashed in as did everyone that was that was what the initial reporting was wasn't it it was and they said on the speaker system too that building two which tower two that i was in was secure and please go back to your desks. I went back to my desk to call my wife, Mary, and tell her that I was okay to turn on the TV and watch what was happening.

21:56I was at my desk and I got a call from a friend here in Toronto. He started yelling at me. He told me to get out of the building. I grabbed a colleague of mine and as we were leaving, the second plane hit our building. It went from 78th floor to the 85th floor. We got knocked flying and all the ceiling tiles came down and we picked ourselves up and we made our way to the stairwell. We started to go down and I guess about two or three flights of stairs and we met a woman being carried by two men telling us we couldn't go down. I decided to climb back up. We climbed, I guess, to about the 91st floor and I realize now that all the floors are locked from the inside for security reasons.

22:44So at this point, you're above where the plane had crashed. Correct. We started to head back down. I told some people that I was with to lie down and try to get beneath the hot choking smoke. And so we did. And we were drifting off. And then someone called me. I don't know if you're a God-believing person or a faithful person, but somebody called me and said come this way so i followed that voice into the thickest of smoke and then in a last ditch effort for air i pushed against it and it revealed the staircase down below and there was no one there on my way down all the way down i ran into three firefighters coming up and can i just pose the same question to you are a man of faith and you do believe that that it was a higher presence speaking to you?

23:41I do. Some people may say it's an angel, some may say it's God, and some may say it's my adrenaline-fueled synapsis working overtime. And that is possible, but if I ever hear a voice that clear and calm again, I'd follow it. And that voice, whoever, whatever it was, did lead you out. Talk us through what happened then. When I reached ground level, I just wanted to run and get away from that place. But I came out facing the courtyard, the area between the two towers. There was a security guard who told me I couldn't go out there. There was too much debris and there were bodies everywhere. So they made us go underneath in the path system.

24:25So as I started going down there, I ran into a colleague of mine, sweet jovial man. Him and I started walking. That's when we heard the loud noises. I looked to my right and saw a huge fireball coming at us. I just yelled to John to run. And I ran as fast as I could. And that's all I remember. I remember getting hit on the head and then starting to drift off. I woke up three days later in the hospital. It burns on 60 % of my body and it took me a while to come through. And how did you get to a place where you can talk about it in this detail? I didn't want to initially. I just, I wanted to hole up.

25:12I didn't want my colleague's spouses seeing me. I got out and they didn't. I'll carry my survivor's guilt with me to my grave. But after a while, being blank and a bit morose, somebody said to me, it's just like you need to tell your story. People need a vision of hope if they can or resilience. And I tell people now I talk about resilience and gratitude and adversity. And if I can help somebody on their journey, then I believe it's important to do that. That's Ron DeFrancisco sharing his memories with James Kumarasamy. Amid the solemnity of today's memorial came a flash of anger as Terry Strada, the widow of Tom Strada, who died at the World Trade Center, unleashed a stinging attack on the foreign policy of successive US presidents since towards one particular country.

26:01You are missed more with each year that passes. But how can it be 25 years and still we have no justice for the role that Saudi Arabia played in your murder?