Healing Through Spirituality, Writing, and Connection with Dr. Sabrina N’Diaye (304)

0:00The people that some people judge, we sit with. And that to me is our nature that predates whatever school we go to. And that is what shapes us to be really good therapists. I 100 % believe that. So when I'm working with someone as a therapist, I want to know, tell me your story before, before you got a degree in all these acronyms. So our nature is to be curious and to sit with the people that other people say are the unlovables. Welcome to Therapist Uncensored. Building on decades of professional experience, this podcast tackles neurobiology, modern attachment, and more in an honest way that's helpful in healing humans.

0:43Your session begins now with Dr. Ann Kelly and Sue Marriott.

0:53Hey, you guys. While we know relationships are wonderful, they are also really hard. Many of us believe that they shouldn't be, that if we have good connection and good communication, things will just go smoothly. But it's really that belief that can make us feel stubborn and even more hopeless. So relationships take work. It does for Sue and I. We can make it look easy. It's not. And one of the ways is because many of us, we differ. We differ in what activates us, what makes us feel threat, the expectation. And it's these differences that are held in our body, not our thoughts. And they influence how we talk, how we love, how we fight.

1:30So holding that belief, if he or she or they could just understand me, if they love me, they do something different, is not really true. And we're talking about relationships with your partner, your teenager, your mother-in-law. So Sue and I have created an online course that can help you understand yourself and those you love in a different way. This is not just for therapists, it's for everyone. Although the good news is if you're a therapist, you can get CEs along the way and all of you can use the visuals and the worksheets individually, or you can even use them in your own private practice.

2:04So while the course is based on our book, Secure Relating, Holding Your Own in an Insecure World, it is definitely not a replication of the book. We talk directly to you. You learn how to understand more deeply your attachment, those you love, the neuroscience behind it, and how to build secure types of connections right now in your everyday relationships. Rather than changing one another, y 'all can shift together in very important ways. It's very powerful. We're getting great reviews. Check it out. It's at therapistuncensored.com slash BAS, therapistuncensored.com slash BAS. The BAS stands for Beyond Attachment Styles, The Science of Growing Secure Adult Relationships.

2:52And by the way, the cost of the course is about the amount of one individual therapy session. And yet you get hours and hours and hours of what we think is extremely valuable information. So check it out. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to Therapists Uncensored. Today, it is my honor to bring you a new guest. Dr. Sabrina Injai is a therapist, storyteller, and peace builder with over three decades of service to the underserved. She is the founder of the HeartNest Center for Peace and Healing in Baltimore, where her approach weaves together wisdom, science, and ancient spiritual practices. As the senior faculty member of the Center for Mind-Body Medicine, she has responded to community trauma from Las Vegas to the U.S.

3:35Capitol, from Pine Ridge Reservation to Jordan. Her book, Big Mama Speaks, Love Lessons from a Harlem River Swan, is part memoir, part spiritual teaching, drawn from the life of her grandmother, who I hope that we get to hear about. Some call you Sister Sabrina. Is that an appropriate reference for you right now? Yeah, a lot of people call me Sister Sabrina. Do I get to do that right now? You do. Everybody calls me Sister Sabrina. Okay, okay. It's an honor to do so. So Sister Sabrina, welcome to Therapist Uncensored. Oh, thank you. Thank you, Sister Sue. Thanks for having me. I like the sound of that.

4:13Yes. I think that was a song too. Wasn't there a song that said something, something Sister Sue? I don't know. The Sioux City Sioux. No, we were kids. No, I remember. Yeah. But yes, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's so interesting. Even the term sister, the only time I have heard that used in my community was in the Pentecostal world. The Pentecostal tradition of, so it was my aunt was sister, this and brother that. And there's something so endearing about just even that reference. Well, in the African-American community, it is a sign of respect to refer to someone as sister so-and-so.

4:51Like you've achieved a degree of elevation, promotion. And tell you the truth, at the age that I am now, a lot of people are calling me Mama Sabrina. So I got a promotion. You're an elder. Yeah, I'm an elder now. It's a wild ride to be an elder and still feel, you know, I'm still a youngin on the elder side. But after you turn 60, you graduate to Mama Sabrina and it feels good too. And it's such a sign of reverence, really. So before we get going, people have heard your bio, but would you mind describing yourself in your own terms so people can get a feel for who you are if they're not seeing the video?

5:34The first thing that comes to mind about how I describe myself is that I am 100 % equal parts laughter and tears. Like I cry with ease. I laugh with ease. I am a therapist. I'm also redefining what it means to be a therapist in a world that is actually not separate. Like we are all related. and so I've been looking at how to for many years almost 40 years how to do that work differently and the other thing about me that I want people to know is I really love life and I have yet to ever give up hope for humanity with all that's happening in the world I still have hope that's a powerful statement and so necessary because without it where are we yeah I don't know I I wouldn't be here talking to you I'd be hiding or in a in a hole or moving backwards and I met you and sought you out for this interview at a conference and I don't remember what the title of the workshop was that you were doing but it was something that I was just absolutely drawn to but just walking in and the energy in the room and your teachings have stuck with me and they've been so powerful and on this podcast we've worked really hard we initially did a lot of bridging for folks that didn't have access to educate you know to traditional education or even expensive psychotherapy putting out there about attachment and relational neuroscience and all those things and then we began to realize that we were really bridging the very traditional form of psychotherapy and from a lot of revered and beloved people that we know, but typically white male scholars that have their own kind of cultural background and influence as well.

7:33So the last couple of years, Anne and I have worked really hard to try to not throw that out, but to add to it. And I am finding so much healing and richness outside this traditional, that bowling lane of left brain psychotherapy, all those things. So that was my draw. And I wanted to also tell you that when we began to do a little bit of correspondence, I suddenly got this letter in the mail that was addressed to myself. You got your letter, yes. I had no idea what it was. And I'm like holding it out by the corner like, what is this? You know, was I dissociated? And I open it up and it was this beautiful letter I had written to myself at your workshop.

8:16Did you mail that at a particular time? I mean, it had to have been a year later. Yes. So you attended my imagery and writing workshop and it was at the networker, but it was a part of creativity day. And so my intention was for therapists to get an opportunity to dive into their own heart, to write from their own hearts, and then to translate that into something that they could use in their clinical practice. And so, yes, at the end, we all wrote letters to ourselves. I wrote letters to myself, too. I do it at the end of most of my workshops that are in person. And I find that, first of all, you leave a workshop and you forget what happened.

8:58You just, well, that was really good. Well, what happened? I don't know. I don't know what happened. It was good. Where's your handouts? I don't know where they are. But there's something that happens when you go home. And I never know when I'm going to mail the letters. I just always tell people it's going to land at the doorstep of your life at the right time. So when I left you that day, there must have been like, I don't know, 75 people. I put the letters in a rubber band so that I knew where it came from and I put them away. And then I had no idea. I wake up one day and I was like, oh, it's time to mail those letters.

9:36And I mailed them. So even that's a good example of like you're using something nonlinear. You're feeling a moment and you're inviting us to feel the moment of what does this mean that I'm getting this right now? So we're already outside of the bowling lanes. You are. And here's the thing. I don't know if this happened to you, Sue, but literally people have told me and I've done it myself. I look at that and go, oh my God, this is my handwriting. Where'd this come from? And the other thing that happens is I will mail the letters the same day and everybody gets them at a different time. So we could say the post office is bad or we can say it lands at the right time for you.

10:16And that's what I love about the experience. And it shows up. And I consider that experience a spiritual experience. Like you named it. It's not linear. You have no idea. but yet it touches the heart like, oh. And I save all my letters that I have written to myself because I wrote one to myself too the same day. And I save them. And when I open them up, I'm always in awe like, oh. Oh, look at you, girl. Oh, this is great. I do something similar when I open my old journal, but there's something about getting that in the mail. And it reminds me, I remember years ago when Tara Brock said, we engage in spiritual practices so we can remember what we forgot.

11:01And so you leave a conference and you forget. And the letter is a practice to remind you. Well, let's do even more of that. What are other ways that you're integrating spiritual practice? So that's one direction. And then another, I'm sorry, I'm terribly ADD. I was thinking when you were saying you would put the letters away, it scares me. I'm like, I would never find them again? So yeah, maybe they would turn up just when they needed to, but also about your writing and actually, so before we go specifically into the spiritual practice, I'm adjusting something. What about, I know that your history of writing has got a really important kind of origin story and why don't we start there?

11:46Because I think that then we'll frame out the next question around how spirituality is integrated? Well, every spiritual tradition has writing involved. Like we are reading holy books. We are rereading holy books. We open up a book that is considered revered in whatever practice we have. And it's, and every time we open it's like the first time. And so a part of what I do and what I want to guide people to do is to recognize that your heart and the pen that is connected to your heart also has the capacity to write sacred text. And how did you learn that? I have been journaling since I was a child.

12:34And then I would stop and start and stop and start. But I became really committed to journaling consistently, constantly, daily, in about the past 15, 20 years, it became like consistent, like a real practice. Before it was, oh, I'll go a year, go six months. I was having babies. I was, you know, doing education, all different things. But when I really said, oh, this is what I'm doing. And so there were two things happening. One, I recommitted to my journal because I had the time and the energy. Two, I also had a Sufi teacher who made us as his students, I mean, he didn't make us like, you know, tie us down, but part of our assignments with him were to transcribe his books.

13:24So he wrote like 40 books and the assignment was, I want you to rewrite page 23 of such and such a book, or I want you to take the whole book and spend two weeks transcribing it. And so that's how we, in this particular lineage, that's how we go into retreat. We go into retreat with his books and we write the books. And then we write reflections about what it means to us to write it. So I started doing that with my clients and my students with whatever your sacred text is. if it's a book of poetry if it's the bible the torah the quran whatever it is and there are some books that you know for example they're just holy like what did this person say are you kidding even even no lie because you were at my workshop rewriting a stevie wonder song it's sacred it's so beautiful to witness someone putting those words together.

14:25So I want to invite people to write from their heart and tell their own unique story, a story that only they can tell. And then why it's so important to do it with a guide is a guide can help you recognize that it doesn't have to be any shame attached to what is written. It doesn't ever have to be published. no one ever has to read it but then when you get to the point where you don't care who reads it then you're free you're not attached when there's no more shame so that's one piece that I think is really really important to our own healing and it doesn't happen on a screen but the practice that I engaged in on a regular basis in prep I didn't even know was preparation for the book it was actually not preparation for a book.

15:19But my grandmother, and I'll just give you a brief synopsis of her story, when she was alive, she was assaulted by the police. She suffered a debilitating stroke. And this is before I was born. And she never spoke other than three words. And so I used to look at her and I was just in awe of who she was. Like, how could you be this poor, black so oppressed lady and and have this incredible light around you so I always knew there was something very holy about her and not even my family really saw like how what she carried in her body that was so beautiful but I saw it and I wanted my children to see it and so I eventually moved her close to me so that I could care for her and my children could really appreciate what it means to care for the elders and what it means for our lineage, because my grandmother's story, it transformed the whole trajectory of my family in affirming ways and in challenging ways.

16:27And so after she passed away in 2011, I started a daily practice of writing to her in my journal. And it started out like a letter, like, dear big mama, this really sucks. This like, you know, just whatever was coming to me. How could they treat you so bad? Why do we have racism? All this sucks. And there was a lot of curse words and whatever I felt like saying. And then one day, the letter, I started out writing the letter, and I had been told by many, many, many spiritual teachers in many traditions that there's a time of the day in which the veil between the physical and the spirit is at its thinnest.

17:07It's embedded in Sufism. It's embedded in Native practices. Even Thomas Merton wrote about it. Rumi wrote about it. So I said, well, let me just get up and start writing to her at 3 a.m. I felt like she took control of my pen. She started writing me back and answered a bunch of questions I had. So then I started writing questions to her. Like, why is this like this? And then pausing and waiting and the answer would come back to me. And at the time, it was just me moving past my grief. because I cried a lot writing that journal. I missed her, but I also was very angry with the things that had happened to her in her life.

17:48Even though she was this ball of love and laughter, her passing brought up a lot of strong emotion for me. And there's a point in the journaling after a couple years where she said, all right, it's time to stop and type this up. so I started typing it up and then I started writing about how so when I looked at all the quote-unquote data which is all like this side of the brain I started to see oh there's some themes going on in here like she was teaching me some real stuff and so I organized the book around those themes and it ends up being nine themes and and nine is a very holy number for me It's the number of completion.

18:36There's nines all over my life. I was born on three six, which is nine. So all of it, all of it was connected for me. And so I ended up typing it up. And the dialogue is always the beginning. And then it's always how I applied it to my own life. And then how I applied it to my clients. Can you give us a couple of examples of these nine? Oh, I should have my book in front of me for this. I think I have. You have one. I have one. I don't have it. Why come I don't have one right here? Oh, die before you die. Ooh. Die. You want me to tell you about that one? Sure. That one stuck out. That's a big one.

19:20So die before you die is actually one of the tenants of Sufism. and the messaging behind that is to not be attached to anything, to let go of expectations and attachments. Because when we die, Sue, we're not taking any of it. This beautiful backdrop, this art behind me, this beautiful space that I'm looking at you in, it's not going with us. And so the goal of the Sufi is to just relinquish attachments to it. and then when I was reading the the conversation my grandmother I realized she did that that stroke that first stroke I call it her first death and she died she was pronounced legally dead they did last right she was raised Catholic and everyone was preparing for her to die and then she wakes up on Good Friday which my Christian friends are like whoa right what the heck so she wakes up on Good Friday, so I call that her second life.

20:29And in her second life, she was attached to nothing. She was always ready to go and happy to stay. And that was one of the most important lessons. But I think the first lesson she taught me was live forgiveness daily. and that was the first chapter that's a very strong chapter for me like how do I live this life where I can forgive people who have done me harm where I can ask for forgiveness and and be liberated through that and so the police officers that attacked my grandmother it was a game to them it wasn't real it wasn't oh let's harm this lady they knew her and they went to the hospital to apologize.

21:21And her sister, my aunt, who was younger than her, she knew my grandmother so well and she accepted their apology. So I thought, wow, if I could live a life where I can forgive people who have done me harm, where I can be like this woman who had six different lovers that didn't marry her and they all got her pregnant because back then it was quite easy to get pregnant and quite difficult to not be pregnant. So for her to have the capacity to forgive those men, to forgive her father, to forgive her mother, and then to forgive the two people who took her from her kids, who basically killed her, to forgive them, and then to live a life in which I am consumed with laughter and love and sharing.

22:15So that first lesson is really the basis of my clinical work. Like, who needs to be forgiven? And some of my clients are like, nobody, I'm not doing it. I'm like, all right, then just don't do it today. You don't have to do it today. Or what parts of ourselves need to be forgiven? That's the most important one, and that's the most challenging one. How do we forgive ourselves? And I think often in my clinical work, people think that I'm telling them that you forgive and then you forget or you forgive and you get back together. No, you forgive so that your heart stays open to more love. And it may not be that person that did you harm.

23:02That's absurd. Don't stay with someone who's harmful to you. You don't have to invite your abuser to dinner. but I have witnessed some pretty amazing magical things happen to people who open their heart to forgiveness. That's so powerful especially coming from you and I'm so touched by the relationship that you had with her and how much like you said other people might not have seen it but that you had this very alive co-regulatory relationship. It saddened me Sue. It saddened me that people missed it. Well, what do you think it was about you that you could see it? I think a part of it is what has helped me to be the therapist that I am.

23:44I think most of us that work in this field were the people who were drawn to the people that no one else wants to hang out with, right? The kid with one arm, the 600-pound man, like the people that some people judge, we sit with. and that to me is our nature that predates whatever school we go to and that is what shapes us to be really good therapists. I 100 % believe that. So when I'm working with someone as a therapist, I want to know, tell me your story before, before you got a degree in all these acronyms. So our nature is to be curious and to sit with the people that other people say are the unlovables.

24:30And I use that in quotation marks. So I already had that nature. I'm also bossy.

24:41So I think the other piece of it is I knew my grandmother couldn't talk. And the assumption that I made in the beginning was that I couldn't get in trouble for the things that I used to whisper to her or say to her, but I did because she, her brain was completely intact. And then as I grew older, I became really curious. So first I could be with her and I could be mischievous because I'm still a child. But at the same time, later on, I became really curious about her. And then I realized a person who's not speaking is looking around and they're in the room in a whole nother way. And they see things that I don't see because I'm so busy running my mouth.

25:28And I realized that she knows more than me. And so I would ask her, is this person a good person to talk to? Is this right? And she would say, uh-uh, or uh-huh. And so then she became, you know, my advisor around what to wear, where to go, who to hang out with. It's like, she knows. She knows. But I think that to me is what separates us. I'm talking about you as well, us from the rest of the world, that capacity. And that sensitivity. And I'm really thinking about how active that you were in that process and not being active, not paying attention to these things that are, again, like outside the bowling lanes, like that isn't the explicit way things are supposed to be.

26:18It sounds like that That was just from the get-go, very natural for you. How have you incorporated those kinds of things into your practice where that you're blending in kind of the spiritual and the ancestral and the wisdom healing, you know? Yeah. So for me, I'm not even making any separation. Like people come to see me and they kind of know already that they're going to do something uncommon. that my work and my approach is to help people establish rituals that are sustainable when they're no longer with me. And some people are like, what is that? What is a ritual? Well, it's a practice that allows you to pull away from the outside world, have a moment with your own heart, learn what you need to learn, and then take it out into the world so that you can function and be well.

27:15And really, my ultimate goal is for everybody to be in love. That's my goal. That's my whole jam, like to be in love with yourself and then to have the capacity to love another human being. So I want people to fall in love with themselves when they come to therapy. That's my intention. And then, of course, I have to work with them around whatever their intention is. But I have a big goal for them. So I believe that knowing ourselves is spirituality. Well, and so when you talk about ritual, you've spoken already about writing as a practice. Is there just anything else that comes to mind as just an example of ritual?

27:55Breathing. Like I start every session with the breath. You could be all over the place, but I'm like, all right, hon, let's bring it down. It's time to breathe. So every single one of my sessions begin with the breath. And every single one after the breath. And I do a lot of imagery. I love imagery. So that first breath is often imagery where I'm having people see their vagus nerve, see their brain, notice their vital organs, notice the emotions that are happening under their heart. Sometimes I'll have them put their hand over their heart. So every single session begins with some degree of that.

28:32And then before I have people open their eyes, I have them set an intention for what they need to say or do in our time together. you know because intentionality is also part of spirituality and so they open their eyes and then before they say what their intention is or anything I have them name one thing they appreciate about themselves and that came from my Imago training but I use it with singles too one thing that I appreciate about myself is and I want them to say what that thing is and you'd be surprised suit, how many people stutter and fumble and sometimes refuse? I got nothing, Sabrina.

29:12I got nothing. I'm like, all right, we'll just hang out until something pops in. And sometimes they need some assistance because as they continue to talk, sometimes they ignore me. They continue to talk. I say, well, I just heard four appreciations pop out of your mouth. Really? Yes, four. So sometimes I have to help them. I'm always reminding people that this appreciation is about you loving you. So it can't be, I love that the sun is shining today. Because you didn't make the sun or the grass. But you could say, I love that I love the sun shining today. Exactly. Yes. Or I love that I took 15 minutes away from my computer and closed my eyes and felt the sun on my face.

29:56And that is an appreciation for you loving you. And so after a while, they start to get it. And in the middle of the session, I love imagery that you remember from the workshop. It is my whole jam. I love imagery. I love guided imagery. And I incorporate some of that into bringing in our ancestors, imagining this person, which is what I did with my grandmother. Imagine that you're sitting face to face with this person. Imagine the landscape of their face. Can you bring a photograph? Is there a story that is untold about this person? So do people ever have trouble identifying an ancestor? Well, no.

30:41What they have trouble with is the idea that it has to be a perfect ancestor. All of my ancestors are not holy big mamas. Some of them did some bad things, but they're also a part of my lineage and they can sometimes be my teachers. And does an ancestor have to be part of your lineage? Absolutely not. There are people that I talk to who are on the other side who I just think are just people I should know. And I write them letters too. Really? I do. When I went to the Middle East, I went to the graves of all the prophets of Christianity and Judaism and Islam, and I wrote letters to all the prophets.

31:22Like, what did you go through? Oh, my God, you went through some trauma. That already sucked. How'd you manage that? And then there are women who have passed away. I don't know if I mentioned this when we met before, but, you know, I deeply admire Maya Angelou. When Toni Morrison died, I was like, dang, thank you. Thank you for what you left behind. Because I love to write. So sometimes I will bring up people that I admire. Last year, I went to Martin Luther King's grave. It struck me that through my own personal work, that I felt its affinity for him in all his imperfection. And so sometimes people think, oh, well, how can you adore this man?

32:07Because that's not what's relevant. because I've done some crappy things too. No one's leaving this earth perfect. But sitting with him, I went to that church, and I'm not kidding, so I cry like the man died yesterday. I cry like, oh my gosh, what did you give the planet? Thank you. Thank you. And I just could not stop crying. Well, you can tell, I mean, even for that, the practice that you do keeps you, am, what's the word, transparent, impactable, your heart is right there. But what if you're sitting with someone who's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, but I need to complain about my husband or whatever.

32:50You know what I mean? Like, I just need, you know, my boss is just up my ass and, you know, just that's what this is about. Yeah. Well, bring that in. Don't leave any emotions outside. Bring them all in. Bring them all in. Sometimes the session is only about that, right? And that's okay. Every emotion is welcome. Well, and that fits with the falling in love with yourself and that there's not something wrong that you're obsessing about your boss or that you're so upset with your partner or whatever it is. No, it's quite the opposite. You're a human and they are humans. And if we don't allow every emotion to be in this space, what are we supposed to do with our emotions?

33:37Because when we act them out in unsafe places, we engage in harmful behavior. So a part of what we do is we make room for that emotion. So you're not necessarily driving this agenda around, but you're just being present with, and then it makes me think of the veil that you, the veil is probably thinner with you. It's more accessible and you're helping people be fully themselves and the possible tuning into this wider, again, history and wisdom and experience that goes beyond the walls of any therapy session. and I'm curious, are there any other ways that your therapy has come to look different than traditional therapy?

34:26Time boundaries or outside insight, you know what I mean? Yeah, it is in a gazillion ways. Let me see, what year was that? This is when I first became a therapist. I discovered Scott Peck's book, The World Less Traveled, and that's when I decided, yes. Well, I decided before that, but I got validation from him that psychotherapy can be an act of love. And I'm so grateful I was very young when that happened. And so a part of, in addition to guiding people to loving themselves, I want them to love in the outside world. And I'm totally fine with them knowing that I love them too. Do you always love them?

35:06I always love them. I don't always like them. Like some of them I'm like, woo, you are so much work. But you know, the ones I love the most are the ones that I can tell them that. I'm thinking of this one client that I just saw the other day and I said, oh, honey, you are so much work. And she just laughed because she knows. And so there's something very healing to know that you're a lot of work and that the person can love you anyway. Or especially. Yes. And that's a part of the healthy transference. So, you know, our field has been all up here about right and wrong and good and bad. And I'm just like, I don't have time for that.

35:53Especially now. We have too much information. There is so much happening. Maybe once upon a time we lived in a world where we didn't know everything that was happening in the world. And there was separation and everything was carved out and segregated and social media didn't exist and the internet didn't exist. But now people know what is happening all over the world. And I can't sit with someone who is grieving the murder of a bunch of small children and pretend like it doesn't impact me as well. I can't do that. And I don't want to do that. I want to feel a feeling. And I also want my clients to know that I'm still ahead of them in the healing, if that makes sense.

36:41It makes total sense because, you know, you're kind of talking about self-disclosure and use of self and the therapy, that kind of thing. The use of genograms, I think is something that you say a little more about how you use genograms. So that's a good way to also, so it's a good way to write and draw out your family of origin and your lineage. So let's talk to the people that are listening right now. And they're like, genograms, what's a genogram? What's a genogram? What if you walk them through and let's, let's suggest this as an exercise for our audience. Okay. So in a nutshell, a denagram is not a family tree.

37:20A denagram is an opportunity for you to draw out your family and look for patterns and ways of being that are like yours or different from yours. So what I typically do is I tell people to just draw their basic three generations. You, your parents, your grandparents. And if you have children, draw them too. If you don't have children, draw your pets, whatever. Whatever youngins. I'm looking at my cat right there. My cat's always on my genogram now. What's your cat's name? Oh, this one, her sassy butt. She's Madam Buttons. And CJ, I'm surprised he's not in here because he can't resist a woman on my screen, but he must be resting with my mom.

38:06So I have people draw it out and then look for patterns, but not just negative patterns. Alcoholism or whatever. Not just that. Look for sources of strength. Look for resilience. And then look and see who is my teacher around what is happening to me right now. And then I also have people, okay, let's expand this. So this answers your other question. This is not just who's in your biological lineage. Maybe there's a teacher that you need to stick in there. Maybe there is someone, a spiritual counselor. Maybe, I'm not even kidding. Maybe it's the lady at Trader Joe's who I've known for 20, since the store opened around the corner from me.

38:54Like she's special to me. So depending on what the theme, that's what we draw. So with couples, I have them draw out who taught you about intimacy and sex. And then it's so amazing. I'm thinking of this one couple. They drew out their genogram. I call them a love-agram. They drew it out. And then the woman in the couple, she said, oh, my God, nobody slept in the same bed. She didn't realize it. And at the same time, her partner, who was a man, he was like, oh, my gosh, nobody was faithful. Yeah, this is a powerful exercise. It's so powerful. And I really like you focusing on the resource that could be there because it's so easy to like bipolar, bipolar, whatever it is, right?

39:42Oh, yes. The other stuff kind of flashes. But even seeing that is important because it puts you in context that this was happening before you arrived. It's going to keep happening after you go. But I was also thinking about you using your body as like, yes, our body holds trauma. But I think that you kind of approach it differently about like really looking to your body as a resource. Absolutely. Yeah. And that's where drumming comes in. The drum, I mean, every culture has a drum. There is not a culture on the planet that doesn't have a drum. And so we know from the research that the drum is a mirror or imitation of the mother's heartbeat.

40:23So there is something that happens to us when we hear that beat of a drum. Like, who can hear a drum beat and not move their bodies? Nobody. Nobody. From the eight-month-old baby that climbs up on the table, you know, to bumps up and down to... It's interesting. I just had a birthday party, Sue, and we had drummers come. And the people that were dancing, the youngest one was three and the oldest was 92. And it was just drums. Just drums. Just drums. And everybody had a movement that was theirs. And so there are times when in session, I will bring a drummer, obviously. I bring drumming music. and I'll just say, well, let's just shake for a little while.

41:15Let's just move some of this out. And there's a healing in that. And so what I want people to do is to see psychotherapy as bigger than just you and I just talking. I want them to see it as us returning to the nature, and our nature was to sit with other people and get support and guidance. So what we are calling traditional therapy is actually non-traditional. That's right. It's been shrunken. Oh, my gosh. It's so small. It's so Western. It's so American. And it's so male. It's very patriarchal. Yeah. And I don't have a beef with men in the broad sense. I actually like men, you know, in the broad sense.

42:01Yeah. Yeah. I don't have a beef in the broad sense. I do have a beef with anything that involves oppressing others. Right. It's a system. It's not a gender. And the system hurts men as much as it hurts women. It does. I think more so. Yeah, that's right. In some ways. I think more so because women, like if you and I, if we never saw a therapist, we would always find another woman to talk to. You know, we just do. We find each other. We tell each other our secrets. We hug each other. And in all of my, any kind of experiences that I've had that are kind of non-ordinary experiences and all the different ways that we can get there kind of with a thinner veil, one of the things that always comes up for me is kind of a sense of being in the woods and there's a group of women and it's kind of like with childbirth or something back in the day, like ladies knew how to deliver babies because they deliver babies.

43:02And so there was this wisdom that was not like a linear left wisdom. And childbirth comes up just because it's so ugly and painful and potentially deadly and communal. And so there's something about kind of that image of like, not really childbirth, but like women know. And when the shit goes down, like, you know, these little gatherings of women who are connected to this, some sort of history and know what to do. That is, so for me, I think that's a version of connecting to something more or more resource is that like there's something that I believe and I trust that is just a truth about that.

43:45And I don't even think of it as gender, but it just ends up being often women. And then I feel weird sometimes, and I wanted to ask you about this. What about white-bodied therapists and white-bodied clients that are much more separated from many of these ideas and kind of the difference between being inspired by these ideas versus appropriating another culture in a way that is harmful to either party? yeah well the first thing that comes to me is no race or culture owns love and connection and some cultures have moved away from love and deep connections and I think it's more about you know you mentioned how the patriarchy has has harmed American racism has done some deep deep harm to everybody.

44:42It is a thief. It's a liar. It's a cheat. It's a thief. And so when it impacts my white body colleagues and friends, it tells them, oh, you can't do that. You can't do what? And I'm always asking people, what is it that you can't do? And interestingly, Sue, I will tell you the other truth about me and my sister name. My daughter one day, eight-year-olds know everything. Everybody should be eight and just stay eight. Totally. Yeah, all the wisdom. One day she said to me, I noticed that you call black lady sister, you call brown lady sister, you call Muslim lady sister, but you don't call your white friend sister.

45:34She was eight. And she said, why is that? And I said, hmm, I don't know. I think because I think that they wouldn't accept it if I did. And she said, well, have you tried? And I said, no, like they just don't do that. And then she asked me again, have you tried? I was like, oh, heck. All right, then. Sassy eight. All right. Great profit here. Right, exactly. And so that's when I started expanding it because she was right. All of my friends that were not white women, women that I loved, I called them sister so-and-so. Go, you know, sister Mary is coming over. You need to go greet her appropriately.

46:17And I never said that about a white friend. And so I tried it out and they were all like, oh, I like that. It feels good. When you said it at the beginning of the episode, I was like, oh, my gosh. It feels like you're— So when did we decide if somebody else owned that word? Yeah. It makes me think of whiteness and perfection, you know, all this stuff that gets put on us. Yeah. That is so interesting, isn't it? That is the imposition of racism. It is. Racism imposes. We're separate. Yes. Being able to say a sister to someone that you don't know well is, of course, we're sisters. We're made up of this body and this world at this time.

47:00We're sisters. But that is not in our world. And as a matter of fact, yeah, I could see the nervousness about doing that. I would have similar nervousness about doing that in reverse, calling a black woman sister. Again, this whole idea of appropriation that I wouldn't want to offend. And that's another problem with sort of whiteness is that we're supposed to get it right and we're not supposed to make mistakes. And so we get caught up in, you know, being nervous about that stuff. Exactly. And I'm just wondering what would happen if we just relinquished ourselves from that bondage. Because I come from a culture where strangers are brother and sister.

47:39And I love that about who I am. And even with my clients. If I have a client that, you know, comes in with his wife, you know, most of my couples are straight couples. And, you know, I often will, you know, when the husband comes in, I'll say, hey, brother so-and-so, come on, have a seat. And they're like, ooh, I like that. And it spans races. It does. It calls for, it's again, it's like returning to something that we've forgotten. Yes. Exactly what it is. That is beautiful. And we forgot it 600 years ago. Like, it's like for real. That's what I'm saying. Totally forget that we're all of, you know, all this multiplicities and subjectivities.

48:28So what about the idea of individual healing versus collective healing? I think that we have to do both. I'm super passionate about running groups. I love running groups. I think we need to. first of all, everybody's not going to go to see an individual therapist. That is the most intimidating process. And expensive. And it's cost money. But we can heal in community. And you know, because you've done all this research around neurobiology, you know, we sit in a circle and we take a deep breath and everybody's vagus nerve is activated. That's a doorway to healing. And so I'm really passionate about people healing in community.

49:09How can we make circles all over the place? And actually, now in hindsight, because I wasn't ready, as ready for your question, but I did a pitch about my business and I said, my name is Sabrina and I make circles. That's beautiful. Yeah, I'm always making a circle. I love that. We used to talk, we have the book, Secure Relating, Holding Your Own in an Insecure World. And part of what we talk about is this cultivating, not secure attachment, but secure functioning or secure the idea of like being connected to this open heartedness. So we talk about creating little ripples of security so that as I'm in a little bit more of a regulated state, it's going to make you feel safer.

49:52And then if you're safer, it's going to, you know, it reduces racism. It reduces prejudice. It reduces all the things. Separation. Separation. Yeah, it's a lie. And so I really have that image of just like sprinkles and that every little circle is actually a ripple that goes out and impacts other people. And so you're a circle maker. I love that. I love it. I do love it. And so, you know, to continue to answer your question about a white body therapist is to continue to work on yourself, to recognize that American racism is embedded in all of us. and it looks different sometimes for me than it does for you.

50:36And I think a part of it is, as a person who's been impacted by racism and sexism my entire life, it is a part of my daily conversation. It's not left out. It's just a part of my conversation. I don't run from it. I don't say, oh, we can't mention it today. And so I can heal from it because I'm not afraid of it. And I think what we have to do with my white body therapist friends who really just like in their nature is to give the love is to be OK to talk about it, to be OK to say how it's showing up in their way of being and to know that it is a lifelong journey to healing from it. it's never a one and done.

51:25It's, I don't care how many Black clients you have or how many Black people you marry. Like, it's always going to be, because of the 600 years of the journey, it always is going to be a part of your journey. And the healing is a part of it. And it's a part of my healing journey. So I'm always looking at it. Well, even this conversation feels healing to me. And I hope as our listeners tune in with us that it can feel healing to you all too that we're remembering these things that haven't forgotten, like you said, hundreds and hundreds of years ago. But folks that want to work directly kind of want more of this from you, what are some of the options to get closer to you and get more of this good stuff?

52:10Oh, there's so many options. So they can email me, Sabrina at theheartnest.com. I also have a sub stack and that's called Sister Sabrina. Sister with an A. I also have a podcast called Soul Speak, Conversations for Your Healing Journey. They can listen there. And that's where people write in questions and I do my best to answer them. They can find me on Instagram, Dr. Sabrina's Heart Nest. And on Facebook, I think I'm also Dr. Sabrina's Heart Nest. I'm on all the stuff now. Wonderful. Do you do it yourself? Do you have a team? I have a person. Okay, yes, a team. It's a whole team of us. No, I do have help.

52:56It's just, it's a whole job to keep up with it. It so much is. Yeah, but I am on, I'm on the main ones. But you also do some other things. You do some writing workshops? I do. I do. I love my writing workshops. Oh, and they can find out about my writing workshops at theheartnest.com. I have one coming up this week. It may be too soon for people to come, but it's called The Healer's Pen. And I do some in-person retreats and virtual retreats on forgiveness called The Forgiveness Path. I love teaching therapists, though, how imagery, how to use imagery in writing for their own healing. And then I have one coming up in which we write to our ancestors.

53:39And it's called Who's Your Big Mama? That's happening in November, every November. Who's your big mom is? Who is that person who's on the other side that has left you here to keep living out your purpose? Because we all got a purpose. Well, this is beautiful. And I got exactly what I wanted from this conversation. Oh, thank you, Miss Sue. Sister Sue. Thank you. Well, including that, I'm going to, you know, tuck that one away for sure. Is there anything else as we kind of wrap up that you, any last thoughts that you have for folks that have hung through this conversation and are just wanting to hear from you.

54:15Or also anything we haven't gotten to that you want to mention. Yeah, I think I want to end with where I was going earlier. And that is, I want people to make circles. Like, really, like be in proximity to the unlovable, the different. Be curious. Be curious. And that circle might start out as just a triangle. You and one other person or two other people. But open your heart to the possibility that you are uniquely designed to do something while you're here. And you will discover that being in the presence of other human beings and also by yourself. Stop being afraid to open your heart in the presence of other humans.

55:07It's okay. I'm going to take that directly to heart. And as we just wrap up here, those of you that are still with us, I know you're appreciating this incredible content that we deliver for free and have been doing for 10 years. And a way that you can support us is simply by going to your podcast player and subscribing. And while you're there, if you can drop us a reading and review, it's how that other people can find this great, amazing guests and content that we have collected over the years. and yeah that would be my request for you would be to share this with someone that you think would be inspired and to yeah send us a note through the ratings and reviews that'd be wonderful in the meantime thank you very much it's been an honor to sit with you and we'll see you around the bend

56:02Therapist Uncensored is Ann Kelly and Sue Marriott. This podcast is edited by Jack Anderson.