The Hidden Weight of Systemic Trauma: How to Responsibly Externalize with Akilah Riley-Richardson (306)

0:02Acknowledge the impact of systemic trauma on your therapist's body, your helping body. It has limited your ability, or it has stripped you of your ability to trust your own gut, to trust your own insight. Who you are and what you think you can bring to it has been stripped. And schooling is not just schooling. Schooling has a political context. schooling is intellectual imperialism universities are hubs of intellectual imperialism and don't be confused about it they're not teaching about Yoruba ideology in universities they're not teaching about ways in which ancient Hinduism and healing they're not teaching about those things they're not teaching about aboriginal ways of healing at least in universities here maybe they're teaching it in some progressive spaces across the world but it's not happening here so there's a political piece it's whose voice is louder and the body of the therapist is one that we have to see the assault.

0:58And even though we don't feel it, it's there. Because we understand that failure comes from not being able to abide by these models. And we're scanning our work for how well they're able to lean in to these models.

1:13Akilah Riley-Richardson: Welcome to Therapist Uncensored. Building on decades of professional experience, this podcast tackles neurobiology, modern attachment, and more in an honest way that's helpful in healing humans. Your session begins now with Dr. Ann Kelly and Sue Marriott.

1:35Hey everybody, this is a true story. I was just on a session this week with a client who also happens to be a therapist. And as soon as I popped on to the online session, she starts kind of chiding me about the hassle of like, which link are we using? And there was no reminders. And so she started saying, she started literally selling me simple practice. She says, Sue, you don't have to do anything. It's just, it will literally, like in other words, it would make her life easier if I would use some of the features of simple practice that I already have. Like in other words, she knows I already use simple practice for my billing, but I wasn't using it for the telehealth.

2:12That's how much therapists love simple practice. For me, what the big game changer was when I got on several years ago and started using it, really it was just automated billing. That as somebody who struggles with distractibility and ADD, billing and the admin side of my business was the worst. And it has just been entirely different. It keeps track of everything. Everything is automated. About once a month I get on to just make sure that if somebody's credit card has expired or anything like that. That's how hands-off that it really is. Another thing I love about it is that it's integrated entirely into my iPhone calendar.

2:48So I don't have to be at a computer to do anything. I can't tell you how much I love it. And I can't tell you how much I love having a sponsor for our podcast that I can so absolutely wholeheartedly support and endure from years of experience. It makes me very happy. So Sybil and Practice is an all-in-one EHR that is HIPAA compliant, HIT Trust certified, and built specifically for therapists. It brings scheduling, billing, insurance, and client communication into one place so you're not juggling multiple systems or having to remember these things that you might forget. It also offers automated appointment reminders, like I said, client communication, note templates, reminders if you haven't done notes or if there's things that are pending.

3:29That's all seamlessly incorporated. And here's something really exciting. If you're just starting out or you're growing your practice, they also have a credentialing service that helps you get paneled independently. It takes the total headache out of insurance enrollment and it gives you full autonomy over your own contracts without any middleman platforms taking a cut. If you're ready to simplify the business side of your practice, now's a great time to try it. Simplepractice.com. Get this. It's going to start you with a free seven-day trial. So there's zero risk to get it set up and to get it going.

4:01And then they also give you 50 % off the first three months. And I can almost guarantee you that if you try it, you're going to absolutely love it. And you're going to feel the impact of simplifying the business side of your practice literally immediately. Just go to simplepractice.com to claim the offer. Again, simplepractice.com. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to Therapists Uncensored. many of you may have may remember our guest today it was episode 275 akila richardson we had a great time talking welcome back hi thanks for having me again you had some wonderful ideas brewing at the time and now you have them published in a book that is awesome uh marginalized couple but what marginalized couples in therapy interventions for healing from systemic trauma I've read it cover to cover, loved it.

4:57And what I said, which is still true, is that it is my favorite. I don't remember exactly what I said on the blurb, but my favorite couple's book because of how inclusive it was, but also just the good therapy advice and wisdom that you had was really accessible and it felt really fresh. And I loved it and I would highly recommend it for anybody. Since then, since we met, for folks who didn't hear the first episode, can you just orient us a little bit to who you are and yeah we'll launch from there yeah so my name is Akilah Riley Richardson I live in the twin island state of Trinidad and Tobago so that's in the Caribbean pretty close to Venezuela I am an educator a trainer I have two wonderful children they're nine well they're going to be nine they're twins I am a therapist I specialize a lot in working with trauma and working with couples.

5:49And a huge part of my work is taking the reality of BIPOC and LGBTQI persons into consideration and the impact of systemic trauma on their mental health, as well as on their relational realities. Well, that's great. And after we spoke last time, and we were talking about barriers, and I remember this part I had asked you about, we were talking about the pain of losing indigenous healing practices. And you had said, like, God. And I had said, what do we lose? You know, tell us some about them. And you had said something to the effect of that you had some grief about also being absent from them because a lot of the models, even where you live, are still Western models that are being imported.

6:35And after we hung up, you sent me a play therapy thing that you had just received that was just, it was importing a person from the U.S. to come teach, you know, the islands how to do play therapy, which is what we were talking about, about wait, let's flip this around. So now you have a book and you have a way of teaching. Like in other words, like it should be your turn to be invited now. That's what I'm saying. Oh, thank you. instead of flipping it around. So how has it been since the book, since the publication? How are you doing? And yeah, let's get into it. Since the publication, you know, like I tell people, like there's this buildup until this big reality of a book being launched.

7:23And then after it's out into the world, there's so many emotions. There's happiness that is out in the world. But then there's also, I think, some sadness, some fear. What are people going to think about the book? What are they going to review? What are they going to see on Amazon? What are they going to, you know? There's a lot of vulnerability. And I think when you sit in a Black Global South body where the access points are considerably less, yeah, the reality of being able to share knowledge, it looks very different yeah it looks very very different it's harder to be able to find spaces to show your work it's harder and more expensive so the ease with which somebody else could go to a conference in new york or to go to conference in california or any other parts of the world you know it's considerably more expensive if you have to do it physically you know leaving the Caribbean to be able to get somewhere.

8:22And then the world I have found still, and just the reality, right, still privileges global North voices, global North well-established voices. Now, there are some global South voices that are certainly heard and respected, etc. And then there are some global South voices that they are clamoring in the background, but we sound like whispers. And I think being able to sit in the dual nature of this experience, like, oh, my gosh, I have this work that people are telling me is so wonderful. And that, oh, but you know, being able to have opportunities to share it and, you know, to have other people interface with it, those are considerably less than it would be for somebody else.

9:10That's tough. Totally. And, you know, there's the financial reality of what you're describing. But also you mentioned flying to, you know, being terrified to there's just the relational persecutory reality of flying into the United States. I mean, persons who live in this side of the world and just internationally, right, we were hearing so many interesting stories about coming into the U.S. Those stories were daunting. And so my friends, my very dear friends and chosen family in the U.S., they'd give me a ton of advice about where to come in. You know, you strip, don't bring a phone, don't do this, don't do that.

9:52You know, and of course, I am in no way a threat. You know, I'm just little old me. With a book, I'm a therapist, you know. I am in no way any person who could be of any threat. But there was so much heightened anxiety. And what was the fear? What was the fear specifically? The fear was that, so people, I think when the detention started at the border, people began to be afraid that anybody could just be detained at the border for any kind of strange reason. And so people were coming in just being afraid of being detained at the border. And I also think that when we were seeing things on the news about people being assaulted and people being killed, those are things that even though you think, okay, there's no way this can happen to me, when you're stepping into a space, there's a part of you that's worried still because you're not a resident.

10:45You don't have the anchoring and the safety of being a citizen. And you have a global self-body. so visibly yes that you can be othered yes with a glance yes and you know those of us in the region I know people have concerns and fears of people trying to stay in the U.S. illegally etc etc and I mean I have absolutely no desire to stay in the U.S. illegally you know you didn't you You didn't want to come here to begin with.

11:17I mean, when I come to the U.S., I enjoy coming to share my work. I enjoy coming to meet up with a friend, etc. But long stays are not on my bingo card. You know,

11:34I mean, a little old me. I'm thinking, oh, my God, I don't even have any of these thoughts in my mind. But yet still, I too am afraid because there was just this general paranoia when we were seeing all the different things that were happening online, you know. So, yeah, I think that was concerning. That was worrying. I recently had to come into New York to deal with a personal health matter. And I remember when I was coming in, oh, at first I wasn't afraid at all. And then the fear started to come. But it was nice being able to be with an immigration officer who also occupied a minoritized body.

12:16And it was nice being able to be in New York and just be around the diversity of New York. I felt very good in New York, actually, if I have to be very honest. New York felt like, and then New York has also a very strong Caribbean presence. So everybody is in New York. So it felt really good. But I think one cannot underestimate or ignore the reality of marginalized bodies or Black bodies or LGBTQI bodies having to navigate space, you know, at this point in time. That's exactly where I was about to go was that, like, here you are totally reasonable. You know what I mean? Going for legit, you know, and you can feel it and how this impact.

13:01Like, what are you seeing clinically? And what can we learn from that around just the ongoing systematic racism and threat, the impact for individuals and for couples? Yeah. You know, it's so interesting that you raised that because I saw heightened fear amongst my BIPOC and LGBTQI clients within the last two, three years, within the last two years. I saw it. And that's the year and a half, to be very honest. it was just this thing that was sitting in people's systems and people were on edge and people were panicking and was showing up in the work it was showing up in the therapeutic room it was also showing up in supervision because i also supervise clinicians and some of them are from the u.s and i saw clinicians coming in to supervision with me feeling scared overwhelmed just thinking about the reality where they're just thinking about the reality of feeling helpless in their work because their clients who may look like them as well were feeling so many big things and they could not help them because what they needed help with was much bigger than what was in the room there was a need there's a systemic change that needed to happen and so I'd say that I'd say that what I noticed more in the work was a sense of helplessness desperation but not just amongst clients but also most clinicians who are now working in this particular context.

14:37And the wars and ICE and there's so, so much. And yeah, and then we are on the front line absorbing that for sure. You know, you notice that you say, you know, the black bodies and LBGTQ kind of together. I'm curious why that is and if you ever like how you see them differently as well. It's just largely because it's the focus of my work. I have leaned largely into the realities of LGBTQI people and BIPOC. So it isn't for any specific reason other than that's a huge part of my work. It's also a huge part of the book that I wrote, you know. So in my work, I talk about systemic trauma and its impact on marginalized people and marginalized couples in particular.

15:24And I focus largely on the realities of BIPOC and LGBTQI. What I have heard from persons, though, is that some of the things I've spoken about in my work can be applied to various other marginalized groups that we can incorporate neurodivergence here as well. Like there's so many other things that we can bring into the fold from this work as well. Part of why I ask is as a queer person, I just feel like my level of marginalization in the world is nothing. You know, I mean, it's not even on the scale relative, I think, I imagine, I can't speak, but like for folks that are easier to identify or that I come with so much privilege.

16:10knowledge and yes I've had my share of stuff but it has been so you know I'm not somebody that is trans um I am not somebody right there's a lot of like I'm aware that this is also just an individual thing but sometimes like when other people lump us all together I sort of think I don't know if we should be lumped or not you know good point I'm so glad you raised that because now we have to talk about visibility you know what's visibly different so if you're trans that's visibly different you know even if you're non-binary in some ways but depending on how you present yeah so if you're visibly different you are going to experience this world differently i'm so glad you raised that because i think sometimes we do think yeah once i have a marginalized identity i can wave my oppression flag i'm not realizing that we all are having very different experiences well and even a gay woman versus a gay man i think the risk is really different.

17:05I mean, I think people don't see me as sexual. You know what I mean? Like, I'm with my sister or, right, we just get invisibilized, which is one thing, but it's certainly not as dangerous. It's just not on the same scale. You're so right. You're so right. And you know, there's a way in which, like in my work, I talk a lot about this concept called relational privilege. And relational privilege is the ability to navigate relationships in the world from a place of being able to trust yourself and being able to feel safe in the world and that is connected to your social location so the argument I make is that you know the way I show up in my microcosm in my relationship is directly tied to my social location and what you just brought in there I think is important for all of us to remember that it isn't just your social location, but it's how visible your social location is as well.

18:01And also how threatening that visibility is to the person in power. I love that. And I think that's why trans people in particular are at so much risk. There's a way in which trans identity... Trans women. Trans women. Yes. Yes. More so than trans men, I think. Yes. Yeah. I think persons of trans experience are definitely there's a way in which our not just heteronormative but our cisnormative kind of space cis people feel feel threatened by trans people it's a very interesting fair like it's a very peculiar fair to be quite honest that interestingly enough and i know i want to be sure i have to say when thoughts enter my head i can fear let me stay on it's a very peculiar fear that is rooted in colonialism quite frankly and people hate me to say this but not just colonialism but but christianity because there's so many indigenous and pre-colonial africa like there's an understanding yeah if you look at even ifa tradition there was an understanding for example gods can have different genders etc right you know but this and even in hinduism there's an understanding of that yeah so we're dealing here with a colonial import yeah colonial christianity not just christianity colonial christianity which is very different from christianity in its purest sense yeah but colonial christianity has resulted in people becoming very very afraid of persons of trans experience people are trans trans men trans women people feel threatened by it you know so i'm glad How do you raise that?

19:42And there's not an awareness that we all are dealing to some degree with managing our gender presentation. Like any guy that uses Rogaine or, you know what I mean? Like anything that we're doing to keep looking like the gender that we feel that we are or that we identify with, there's a gender expression that we're trying to convey. It's just unexamined. I have to remember that because next week I'm going to put braids in my hair. So I need to remember. Yes. Right. Or if we're trying to, yeah, have a bustier bra or squeeze our waist. Like there's something that we're doing related to gender and that we're, you know, changing how we look to match how we feel.

20:27And, you know, it's just unconscious. And one and one is conscious. And I think that's some of what's so threatening is that non-binary folks and folks that are expressing themselves against established gender norms have done the work. and in that sense are very threatening. It threatens the unconsciousness of other folks. Anyway, I'm sorry to get us off on the gender stuff. But what you're saying, we're weaving it back into the whole notion of threat. The more threatening I am is the more scared I have to be for my safety. And the more scared I have to be for my safety is the less relational privilege I have in my relationships.

21:05So when I'm with my spouse, So, you know, when I'm with my partner, I am showing up with a hyper aroused nervous system. I'm showing up with an inability to trust myself and my boundaries and my edges because my body needs to be alert and on guard all the time for a system that is threatened by me. But I don't even have the intellect, the cognitive space, the emotional space to be present with my partner. because my brain needs to be out of this space and into dealing with the threat that people assume me to be. I'm so glad you raised it like that because I always teach about marginalized people having to be afraid.

21:51And I think now being able to name, yeah, you know, the more threatening people think I am, the more scared I have to be. Yeah. And also I sometimes I think in that same vein that neurobiologically we can be experiencing threat and not know it. We're not afraid, but where our body is in threat, which is what you teach about so much. Yes. You know, I remember I was in a phase of my life where I was having a tough time and I said, you know what, I want to go and get an EEG on my brain. And it was, you know, it was a phase where I was feeling like, I feel like if so much is happening in my system and I want to get some support and when the EEG was done I was calm I didn't feel threatened but he was showing me but you know your brain is scanning for threats like and I and that he did this he had me do eyes open and eyes closed and he said in the report it said even when your eyes are closed your brain is still scanning for threat oh yeah so that was a huge moment for me that i was calm and my brain was still saying look around look around look around look around so that when persons sometimes would say for example when i'm working with couples yeah and one or both or three yeah because sometimes we're working with persons with various relationship configurations when a person is feel like you know what i don't experience systemic trauma i don't i'm fine these things don't bother me i know you may not think you'll be affected but you are being affected unconsciously your body is taking it in your body is taking it in and it is unconsciously affecting how you're interacting with your partner your degree that felt sense of safety in your body is depleted and you don't even know.

23:50And I feel like for us as therapists, I think if it's one thing that I want to leave with anybody who listens, bring relational privilege into the conversation. Have persons think about the unconscious load they're carrying as a result of the system. Every time you sit, so for example, as I said, I came into New York recently, consciously I was not feeling afraid, but I think my body was experiencing deep fear, even though consciously because for all the months before that i had canceled a few trips to the u.s where i paid my money i have american airlines and caribbean airlines that's our provider here they just made a lot of money off of me because i could not even get my money back i paid to go to see a broadway show and i remember writing and said i can't come right now it's just too much it's just it just feels like the things that were coming to us and the news etc and some may say you know so it's not that bad they're making it look horrible on the news it's not that scary etc but when you're sitting in a body that you know can be assumed to be threatening i don't have a white slim 5 '7 body you know i'm in this black body with natural hair and this accent and then i'm seeing people who look like me being detained or being sent back home my brain can't distinguish and say, oh, well, that's not me.

25:17You know, that's not me. No, there's no way. And here's, and here, this is one of the things that I respect so much about your work is that this is, these messages is what you're trying to get out is that the mental health system is also white, has been historically white and has failed to recognize the impact of systematic oppression on trauma and on individuals, couples, parents. And you're really trying to fill in this gap because, you know, let's say I feel afraid so then I'm going to go to talk in my therapy. And then if the therapist is just like, oh, must be your anxiety coming back up again, right?

25:54And attributes it to an individual issue. So can you speak a little bit more about how you're wanting therapists and individuals in relationships to begin to think wider instead of like making it about the individual? Yeah. Responsible externalizing. That's the term I often use. Responsible, yeah, responsible externalizing. You know, at first, that's why I love talking about these things because I get to learn more things about the work as I speak. At first, when I first started to use it, I said responsible externalizing because I did not want persons to over attribute things to the system. I didn't want people to think, you know, everything is a system.

26:35And that is still true. And now for me, the word responsible has another meaning and part of it is yeah we need we have a duty to raise the system you it's your responsibility to name the system in the room you need to name it and part of the reason you need to name it is because just as our field has been preoccupied with individual pathology and causality being and the causes of problems being linked to people's just people's family of origin or their own you know, individual makeup, etc. Our clients are also doing the same thing. A lot of our clients are blaming themselves, pathologizing themselves, vilifying themselves, vilifying their partners.

27:20Yeah, so a lot of my work is on working with partnerships and couples and throuples, etc. But persons sometimes are vilifying their partners for what they're carrying in their systems, not realizing that persons are carrying things from the wider system as well, not just from the individual systems. And I feel like it's our responsibility to say, have you considered this? Can you give an example of what that sounds like or looks like? So for me, when I am practicing responsible externalizing, the first thing I do is I step into a brave space and I teach about relational privilege. I teach about the fact that the wider system can affect the degree to which we feel safe and the degree to which we trust our system.

28:03So it's not just the degree to which we feel safe or protected, but it's the ability to trust your system. Because what systemic trauma does is that it also erodes self-trust. Yeah. What do I mean by that? I remember a client saying to me once that sometimes self-trust feels dangerous. Because if you were to tell yourself that what you think is happening is really happening, you'd be so tired and exhausted. So you have to lose connection with yourself to be able to live in the world. But that connection that you lose with yourself also plays itself out in your wider relationships, right? With your boss, with your colleagues, and also in your intimate partner relationships.

28:45So sometimes we have people who can't assert themselves with their partners, who can't have clear boundaries because they've been taught by the wider system, I should not trust myself. So the first thing I do is just teach about the whole notion of what is relational privilege and how the system works. And then I offer the possibility that this might be this. And it's done very gently. It's done with an invitation to explore because I don't want to become another oppressor in the system. I don't want to be forcing this ideology on you. so it's an invitation and what i've noticed at least in my practice once the invitation is made and people the people have an aha moment and people say oh my god this might be part of it it might not be the entirety of it but it might be part of it and then here's the part that i i've i talk about as well in my book they need to grieve like our field has a preoccupation with fixing and healing.

29:48And it's a thing, I've been so unsettled about that now field. You know, it's so corporate and icky, quite frankly, where we think that if we tell people these are all the techniques and tools we have and they can use it, they're going to be just fine. We don't know. We don't know. We have beliefs and we have models, but we don't know. And even when we're coming in evidence-based material we still don't know and so there's this grief that we need to be with that I'm here feeling this thing that may not change and what I noticed so I started delving so much into this work heavily in in let's say five five six years ago in terms of this part of the work in terms of the impact on couples right and while I started doing this work the realities got worse So now all the things that I was teaching about and all the things that I was feeling, they're now even more relevant now.

30:49It's like life just hit us, the worst of the worst, you know? It's almost dystopian. Yeah. It's like you're profiting this, that it's just been so amplified. You said earlier about the quiet voices, the whispers. Are you connected to other folks that are trying to kind of get this material out there for the Western, particularly Western therapists? I mean, I have seen people, for example, like Bayou Akumolafe, Tyson Yonka-Porter, I mean, they operate, as far as I know, in the Global South context, and they've been able to speak so much about the value of Indigenous knowledge and the value of new frames of working, even though, I mean, Bayou doesn't identify himself so much as a psychologist per se, but his training is in there more it's more of a philosopher but but i've seen people try to have us think differently about how to support healing i actually quote by a lot of my work when i talk about grief and liminality and being lost because i believe that a big piece of supporting clients and externalizing is being able to sit in lost spaces with them Yeah, because there's no solution.

32:09There's no solution. There's no solution. Oh, that's awful. Why do we want to think about that? There is no solution. You can't package this and sell it. Like my dream would be to sit with clinicians and just get lost with them. And we have to be able to tolerate lostness. We don't know how to tolerate lostness because the product is I'm selling you healing. And that's the thing I noticed when I was supervising clinicians who were struggling with the changing world. I myself had to show up and just be with people because we can't sell healing anymore. We just sell being with people. I'm selling company.

32:49I'm selling normalizing. This is brilliant. No, it's really different. It's a different. I'm just laughing because it's like so obvious, but not at all. I've never thought it. You're selling company. That's right.

33:08Yes, I love it. It is definitely different because it's versus like, even what you said earlier, evidence-based. And that always drives me crazy because it's like evidence-based. Who's doing the research? Who's the evidence? You know, what's the evidence? Like, what are you looking for in this? You know, you can't evidence-based presence. and what you're describing right now, I'm going to be with you in this mess, in this very difficult time. And that is, well, see, I want to say, so tell me if this is wrong. I want to say, and that is healing. Yeah, well, you know, to be fair. Is that me holding on to this idea?

33:46Well, to be fair, I love that you're bringing that up. I have been with, again, the work of Dan Siegel in interpersonal neurobiology. he talks so much about the role of the clinical presence and he talks about and I met pundits don't come after me I can't remember all the things I read in the book but I do remember him talking something about even with patients in the medical field when the doctor when patients feel that the doctor is caring etc you know patient outcomes improve and I think what we have to be with here is what's our definition of outcome you know for us in our field you know healing and what's our definition of healing you know is healing not feeling this ever again or is healing my relationship with the thing that i'm feeling and if my clinician has and i love seagull's worker it is very big on differentiation and linkage differentiation and linkage and i feel that clinicians who work with systemic trauma and who work with differential relational privilege, we have a unique opportunity to sit and differentiate our client, because he talks about it on so many different levels, differentiate our client's reality from the system and help them to link how they're feeling where necessary, where relevant to the system without out becoming meshed with the system.

35:15That's a huge piece of Seagull's work. How do I recognize the system's impact, but differentiate and then link? And then within myself, how do I notice what I'm feeling, differentiate and then link, tending to the thing? And how do we get the couple to differentiate and then link, you know, to differentiate their relational reality from the systemic relational reality and still see the link. And so for me, if we want to say we're falling back straight into Western ideology, which is fine if we want to say that, it's the relationship that we build. But you know, like I said, I'm Black and from the Caribbean.

35:53And even though, you know, Black Caribbean people don't really think a lot, a lot of Black Caribbean people don't think heavily about Yoruba influence and IFA influence because of the impact of slavery. if we even understand even in IFA tradition you know you have Olodomare who is the highest entity who is god you know in Olomare in IFA tradition and then you have subsets you know different manifestations of Olodomare you know you have Shango you have Ogun you have yeah and if you can see like differentiate all of those different manifestations of the one god from god himself and just be differentiate and link be with it's not very different you know constantly differentiating and linking differentiating and linking and in yoruba tradition you understand that each person has their own head they call it ori right each person has their own head that guides them and they may also be guided by some of the orishas i called before shango ogun issue etc and being able to see yourself but also differentiate who you are from the different orishas or some may say gods right that are influencing you so you see you differentiate and you link constantly differentiating and link.

37:20So I think a huge part of healing in the world is being able to constantly differentiate and link. Witness what is playing a role in who you are at this particular moment. Witness it, see it apart from you and understand its impact on you. So witness and impact. Witness, see impact. Witness, see impact. So in couples, we deal with polarization a lot. And then you're talking about the violence in the world right now, how it's shifted. I think if people could do what you're saying, which is maybe their God is the leader of their party, and if I can see them but have myself and agree with some things and not everything, if there was this differentiation and linkage, whatever political realm that you're in.

38:16So there's an end of it. You're not just a lump. So this would be another way of applying it into this kind of violence in the world and stuff. It's like, we're going to have to get out of these, you know, as you get deeper into any particular party, it's like, you have to think a certain way about a lot of things. And if you don't, then you're not pure, you know, you get kicked out. And it's very threatening again. You don't want to be kicked out, so you're going to go along. So anyway, I was just thinking of the application of this very beautiful spiritual idea with some of the groups, like groups across the globe, so that we could have healthier, complex differences.

38:54Like, it doesn't mean everybody didn't have to think the same. You know, it's not right and wrong. It's being able to tolerate differences and stay together and stay connected at the same time. and even in the even in the field of therapy i'm just going to see everybody wants to be identified as a particular kind of therapist like you everybody wants to belong to a school like i understand the value of it and i for me i'm also worried about it like i've seen myself and i think we may have touched on this the last time i'm not sure but it's even more apparent for me right now and i'll tell you why i think it's more apparent i was sitting with some clients recently working and I was trying to pull on some model to work and I'm like this model is killing my imagination like I can't I can't the model is killing my imagination the model has me stifled and I'm trying to fit this couple into this model and and I and no I can't that's and I had to just stop and in that moment I had to differentiate myself from this framework and I also and the linkage I have to acknowledge the power that this framework had over me because you know I'm sure and this obtains in the U.S.

40:08and I think it's a big thing here as well when you could identify yourself as a EFT therapist or a Gartman therapist so there's a power that people at least here in the region okay there's a belonging yes there's a belonging and in our region there's also like a stamp of approval like you can do the work if you have like what's your orientation you know and I've asked people that question before what's your orientation and recently I've been thinking about the fact that you know these orientations we have they are lovely they are wonderful they are powerful they are great and they are also just glimpses into the work they are just a small fraction of the many ways in which we can do the work.

40:50And they're also handed down by whom, right? Who are the origins of these models? And that's going to narrow everything as well. So this has been part of what's been so great about what you're trying to do is like, can we decompose ourselves a little bit? Because we want to belong, but we also don't want to lose ourselves. Yeah. I'm having an aha moment about something else as I speak about it, but it feels so and I want to be very clear I am not knocking the models I am not knocking Gottman I'm not knocking EFT in fact there's so many things from Gottman and EFT etc that I I still use I'm doing a course right now looking infidelity and using the Gottman method so I think there's so much beauty the issue is not the model the issue is being wedded to the model and assuming the model as an identity.

41:41And when I get so well, it's a model, I can't imagine. I remember just feeling, and if I go back to this whole, the concept I spoke about before, relational privilege, right? I see how my own marginalized identity as a Black Caribbean therapist can sometimes show up in my interactions with clients where I feel that, you know what? I need to be safe. The only way I'm safe as a therapist is if I abide by these pre-existing models. I can't lean into my own truth because I have to abide by these global north models, right? That who I am is not enough. There isn't enough wisdom here. And there's a part of me that lives there.

42:28And so I have to acknowledge my own lack of relational privilege. I have to name it. I have to feel the impact of the system and how the system is stripping my imagination by making me afraid of being able to lean into my own essence in the work and confront that and do what I have to do for people because our clients I think suffer when we don't feel the power to imagine and integrate so I'm not saying to discard the models I'm saying integrate them as well into your understanding your felt sense of what is happening right there and acknowledge the role especially for and this is especially true for BIPOC therapists and therapists in the global south acknowledge the impact of systemic trauma on your therapist body your helping body it has limited your ability or it has stripped you of your ability to trust your own gut to trust your own insight who you are and what you think you can bring to it has been stripped.

43:29And schooling is not just schooling. Schooling is a political context. Schooling is intellectual imperialism. Universities are hubs of intellectual imperialism. And don't be confused about it. I mean, they're not teaching about the Aruba ideology in universities. They're not teaching about ways in which ancient Hinduism and healing. They're not teaching about those things. They're not teaching about Aboriginal ways of healing, at least in universities here. Maybe they're teaching it in some progressive spaces across the world, but it's not happening here. So there's a political piece. It's whose voice is louder and the body of the therapist is one that we have to see the assault that even, and even though we don't feel it, it's there because we understand that failure comes from not being able to abide by these models.

44:13And we're scanning our work for how well they're able to lean in to these models. I love what you're saying. And, you know, so for folks that are on the other end of this listening, Like if you're a therapist, part of I think that your challenge, like I love, I loved it when you said like, oh, this is killing my imagination. And even if you're not deeply in a specific model, you still had this politicized, colonialized training. So we don't know what we don't know. And the last couple of years I've been intentionally pulling in these outside voices for myself. Like, and if I didn't have this kind of access, I don't know how we do it.

44:54You know what I mean? to like become aware of what our traps are. So I, what I really like and want to highlight of what you're saying for listeners is like, it's almost like, can you find your third eye to look down and to see how you're automated and to see what you're not thinking about? Like a simple thing was, you know, that we go inside and we go individual and it's, you know what I mean? We get really tiny versus healing and community and dancing and singing and peers. And like, there's lots and lots of ways of healing and things that we've internalized as the right way. And the further you get into a training, I think you're right that it gets even more and more dangerous.

45:33And I can see it even in the group world. You can get really deep into it. And then if you're doing it different, then you're doing it wrong and you're not one of them. So I love your challenge for everybody to just see if you can get a glimpse of any of your own internal blinders. And if you're not a therapist, the same thing, like maybe you will say it, like what are the questions you want people to ask themselves so that they can begin to incorporate some of this wider impact on their wellbeing? So there's a thing I teach about in my work is called habits of survival. It's helping you to think about your day-to-day life.

46:12and I think it's like scanning yourself and what do you think is thriving and being and what do you think is just surviving they're micro things they're little things that you think are innocuous but that's the those are the ways in which your body is just trying to survive the system sometimes the way you comb your hair yeah the way you choose to speak in a particular context sidebar I have um family members and friends who are Caribbean people living in in the U.S. and some of them change their accent as soon as they hop on the plane and they become they live in the U.S. and then some of them I have a very my cousin and my my friend and my brother-in-law refuse to adapt their accent they're like you know what you are going to work to understand me we both have accents you know

47:06I remember the day I learned that I had a race. Like, that's how bad it is. I didn't know I had it. I thought everybody else had races. I thought I was just normal. I'm just being honest. So the idea of me not having a, I mean, that I have an accent, that Americans have accents. Americans don't think we have accents. Americans don't think we have accents. no we do not think we have accents we think everyone else has accents yes and so and so when the rest of the world has to shape shift like that's a joke we have there's a joke my doctor my children's past pediatrician would make he said you know Trinidadians lose their accent from an overseas call like because the minute we call we speak to an American hey man what's up I'm like what is happening why are you speaking like this this is not what is this bastardized version of the American accent.

48:01But if you sit with it, that's a habit of survival. Because being able to shapeshift into American taste and American accents and all those different things, that's how you survive. That's part of how you protect yourself. That's part of how you don't feel othered. So when I say take a look at habits of survival, people may think I'm thinking about these huge things to survive ice on the streets i'm not talking about that i'm speaking about the small things you do to fit in to not get a strange look to not have people ask you know where are you from with this kind of strange look it's a little things and i've had to i've done it i've seen myself sometimes contort and i'm like this is not okay because in my body there is a deep sense of You cannot live your truth here.

48:53And even though I pride myself on being a person that's also self-aware about race relations and yada, yada, there is a part of me that feels an inferiority when I step into this space. Right, because there's an adaptation to idealize the power over. So it totally makes sense. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You've been taught that. At the end of the day, all roads lead to America. You know, it's. Yeah, it's true. By intention, you know, like, and it's reinforced and reinforced and reinforced for sure. All roads are bad. Well, I mean, we don't have an accent, right? So. Or a race. All roads need that.

49:38The leader of the free world, right? All right. So if you're listening and you're going, but wait, I don't have an accent, you know, it's like, this is a wonderful invitation to check that out. and to learn more about that and to wonder about that. About your accent. And about your history and about your educational history and about these things that really are invisible to us. Mostly what we're talking about is not bad people. Anybody listening to this, you're probably not a bad person. If you're still with us, you're with us, right? So this is unconscious and this is internalized. And I just love your challenge.

50:14It's a challenge and an invitation. And I'm wondering, and I encourage this, You've got some offerings and ways to learn from you more directly so that those of us that are like, what? I can't even see it. It's invisible. And it's very generous, especially when a person of color offers, like, I will help you. That is incredibly generous because we've already gotten rid of the work. So you don't really want to just saddle up to somebody and say, teach me. But in this case, you're saying, hey, I've got some things that I'm willing to offer, which thank you for that. And can you tell us more about that?

50:48Yeah, no problem. So if you want to sit with my work on working in marginalized couples in therapy, you can access, like the Academy of Therapy, which is a my favorite green course that you can access later on this year. And I will be posting some of these on my website. So if you go to AkilahRileyRichardson.com, I will be sharing about some work I'm going to be doing for Center for Therapy in Chicago. And then I also am going to be doing some work for an organization called the Iceberg Foundation in Australia. that's online as well additionally therapy boston i'll be doing some teaching there as well all of this is online and all of these courses at least i know for sure two of them are available for clinicians who want to come on who want to learn and yeah and there's other things there's one of the thing that sue and i was speaking about earlier a summit but i don't want to name it just yet because i want to make sure that they it's wonderful organizations put it on the sales page before I go announcing.

51:50Exactly. That's smart. But that they can find out what you're doing. And just for us Americans that don't have accents, that want to make sure that we understand your website, it's A-K-I-L-A-H, right? Richardson. Riley Richardson. That one we can get. A-K-I-L-A-H Riley Richardson. A-K-I-L-A-H Riley Richardson.com or just Google Akilah Riley Richardson, you'd find me. And the website doesn't have any accents, so you can understand what it says. And I would really, like I said, and I have reviewed the book, and I really, really recommend it, Marginalized Couples in Therapy. But also I think that it's not just couples that people could benefit from learning from you.

52:42It's not just therapists, and it's not just couples therapists. that this is a real privilege. It's really hard to find. And we talked about that last time, even for you in the South, to find education and training and these kind of healthy challenges to grow that aren't in this Western model. So I'm really, really proud to have you here and so grateful for your input. Is there anything else that you want to, for our listeners, that you want to give them or share? I don't want to say anything. I just want to express gratitude. I do. I know we had cancellations and here we are. And I'm just so grateful that we got to do it.

53:22Me too. And you always will find resources on our show notes. So be sure and send us anything that you want to put on the show notes, therapistuncensored.com slash episodes. I don't know what this episode number will be, but the first one was 275. And there will be a lot of resources on that one too, I'm sure. Yeah. And if you're still listening, it means that you have valued this content and we're so glad and you're one of us you're one of our people we invite you a couple of things one is there's a community neuron nerd community that supports our this is all free we do this all for free so we do need people to just toss in five dollars or ten dollars a month to help us be able to do this half of what we get of any kind of corporate money goes to supporting mental health care for marginalized people so it's a good win win win therapist FocusandCentered.com slash join.

54:14You can join there, and then you'll get some bonus content. You get ad-free feed, all that good stuff. And then also, for total free and zero cost, if you were to rate and review us on your podcast player, that helps other people find it. And we have got 10 years' worth of episodes like this, good content, again, free for everybody, that just hopefully can raise the baseline of security in the world, you know, half a millimeter, and that would be a big deal. So thank you all for listening. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for a lively, wonderful conversation. And we'll see you around the bend.

54:58Akilah Riley-Richardson: Therapist Uncensored is hosted by Ann Kelly and Sue Marriott. This podcast is edited by Jack Anderson.

55:09Thank you.