302. Master This: How to Learn Like the Experts Do

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1:22To truly hone and master a skill, we have to take the time to learn from experts. My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. Today, I look forward to chatting with David Rogier. David is the founder and CEO of Masterclass, the streaming platform that makes it possible for anyone to learn from the world's best. David is passionate about democratizing access to genius-level knowledge. Well, David, thank you so much for joining me. I'm really excited for our conversation. Shall we get started?

1:59Sure. So to begin, I am an avid participant and student of Masterclass, and thanks to you and your team, I'm honored that I have a Masterclass certifications course coming out on strategic communication, and so thank you for that. It was a lot of fun, and I hope everybody gets a lot of value out of it. Like me, you are very passionate about education. I'd like to start by asking you, what motivates you to help others learn and develop skills? I was raised in part by my grandmother, and my grandmother escaped the Holocaust. And I think one of the things that she really instilled in me, that education is the only thing that someone can't take away from somebody else.

2:38And I think I really internalized that at a very young age. That definitely drove me to create Masterclass, but also I think probably fueled my zest for learning. Excellent. And you've brought that learning to lots and lots of people. In the early days of Masterclass, you had to convince world-class talent to trust you, a small startup. How did you think about pitching what you were doing to people of that nature? I assumed that it was going to function the same way as in the business world. In the business world, if you know somebody in common with somebody else, the person makes an introduction, you will usually talk to them.

3:19It's not how it works in the entertainment industry. In fact, it's designed to do the opposite. Every celebrity has four to five people whose job it is to not let you do that. So every celebrity has an agent, a manager, a PR person, a financial advisor, and usually a spouse. Now, of those five people, only one of them has actual influence over that person. But the job of the other four is to convince you that it's them. But it's not. It's only one of them. And if you go to the wrong person, you're going to get a fast no. So part of the craft was to just learn that. Two was then to figure out who is that one of the five.

3:58And then how do I pitch that one of the five? And what I had to learn was that I have to get them to like me and trust me. And I can do that in a few ways. I could associate and attach myself to people on the project and bring them in who they trust. So these were film directors they'd already worked with before or film directors that had won an Oscar before. The thing about their fear is like, is this person going to look bad? And so how would you drop that risk? Two was you have to get them to actually like you and trust you. And I had to learn the craft of that. And I think I walked into those early rooms thinking I'm pretty special.

4:35I have a master's degree from Stanford. My mom says I'm amazing. This idea is going to change the world of education. People don't care about that. People care about themselves. And so it was much more effective for me to ask them questions, a lot of questions. And when somebody asks you questions about things that you want to talk about, you like them more. Now, I think there's a craft to what questions you ask. You have to do it something that you're actually interested in because otherwise people feel that instantly. So I'm glad to have more of that, but I think there is a craft to how to pitch and a lot of that is relationship building for this.

5:13So many rich things there that you talked about. First, you have to start by really appreciating the circumstance and those who have access and influence to the people that you're trying to persuade or motivate. You have to think about how you approach them. In your case, it was about de-risking the reputation and really coming from a place of authentic curiosity to get them talking. And I think we can all benefit from that in anything we're pitching or in any relationship. And you've been quite successful at it. Having been in the chair for a master class certificates, I have witnessed firsthand the production quality.

5:49That seems to be very important to you and to your team to make sure that it really has an aesthetic and a look. Talk to me about where that comes from and how those listening who aren't going to have access to the crews and the expertise that you have, how important is it to really think through the visuals, the experience, even for those of us who are just doing virtual calls and video conferencing? Part of our success is that our classes do not look like a class. They look like a Netflix movie. now it's not just the look it's also then the production value how engaged it is and all those other things i had filmed some stuff on my own for test shoots and they looked horrible and so we went to our friends and people we knew and one of the first people we went to was actually a professor here at stanford his name is professor bill guttentog he's an oscar-winning film director and i i got introduced to him and i was like hey i'm really stuck our stuff looks bad you know i I was like, any advice?

6:50What types of people? What type of gear? And he's like, you're not going to ask me to shoot? And I'm like, you're willing to shoot? He's like, that sounds awesome. So Bill shot a bunch of our first classes. And that really up-leveled us. The other person was Jay Roach, who had a really big impact on that too. And also shot some of our first few classes. I think that did a couple things. One is achieve what we wanted to on the engagement side and how good it looked. Two, it brought down the risk for the instructors. because if Bill Goodentog and Jay Roach are going to film this, I've seen their stuff.

7:20It's really good. Okay, I know I'm going to look pretty good. So if you're at home doing this, I think think a lot about what is the form factor supposed to be. So for example, if it's live Zoom calls that you're doing, then it should look like a Zoom call. But I think there's opportunities to make that look good. And I think some aren't that expensive to do. And I think one of the best ways to figure that out is look at two or three films or TV shows or YouTube things that you think look really good and break down yourself or find a friend who knows more than you. Break down how did they make that.

8:00And oftentimes you're going to be like, oh, it's the locations actually more important than I thought because the location adds depth, lighting, everything. things. So you're like, you know what, maybe I should just invest in where I shoot in the time of day. And you're going to start to see things like that. That's not that expensive, but that actually has a huge impact. Really important point. I want to put an exclamation point on, which is think about the environment in which you present yourself. And second, look at and observe others that you enjoy, that you think add value and then explore how they do that.

8:33And like you said, it's not that expensive, but it can make a tremendous difference. The content is important, but the experience of the content is equally important. I really like that. As a leader, you lead people who are very technical, very content-specific, but also others who are very creative. That can be hard in terms of management and leadership style to lead people whose goal is the creative and those who are the business and more technical. Any advice and guidance to our listeners who find themselves in a similar role? What helps you manage those different types of people? you have to adapt i think it helps to go deep with some of them so if you're working with folks in film sit in the edit bays with them watch as sound is mixed get deep so that you know each step of it and what it takes in the same way if it's engineering or marketing or whatever i have found that my style has to change so on the content side creatives respond much stronger to a note that is a high-level note.

9:35Hey, in this portion, I find my attention is starting to wane. You know, like, why is that? Or what are we able to do about it? And they need just high-level note and it's not you solving it for them. It's just the observation. I found, though, like, on the marketing side or on the product side, folks like more specific notes. If you're like, you know, this page, I'm just not feeling to click. They're like, what the hell is that, man? Versus like, hey, the call to action, I think, isn't bold enough, isn't strong enough. Like, okay, yes, I can work on that. So I found that I have to change the altitude almost.

10:18That agility, all of us can develop, but it's really the sensitivity to what does this person or these type of people in these roles, what do they respond best to? And I really like this idea of giving feedback through questions. and then also being able to get very specific to what your experience is and how that relates to perhaps others. And it's hard because like when I'm tired or frustrated, I just want to say, please change this to this and this to this. And I've done that before. And it's not nearly as effective because the mental shortcut I'm taking is I know more than that person and I don't.

10:53And so it feels good at the time and it's easier to do, but it usually ends up a worse result. in the moment, it might feel like it's solving the situation or the problem, but in fact, it might be causing damage in the future. Yes. I know this is a completely unfair question, but across the content that you have created and brought to the world, is there one area or one lesson that you've learned that has really profoundly impacted you? We have sat across from 300 of the best in the world, from Christina Aguilera to Steph Curry to Matt Abrams. And I think I had this assumption that once you reach the top, you just chill.

11:31Like Christina can sing when she wants to, Steph can play how long he wants to, and that you're in a state where you can choose when to invest time and you don't need to invest that much. Boy, was I wrong. Every instructor, as we film on any cut, is asking us for notes. Once the class is done, we're in the testing phase. Instructors want all the input that everybody gave. once a class is live. Most of them send us an email or call us and be like, I want to change this. I think this is able to be improved. And I realized that if these masters are still continuing trying to improve their own craft, I don't have any excuses.

12:09Like I got to keep doing that. And so I think that was a lot of personal growth for me. I think that's a wonderful lesson that the people at the top of their game are still working and striving. And perhaps that's what helped them get to the top of their game. I'd like to get a personal, You and I talked about this a little bit. So you have a stutter. It is something you've had for your whole life. What have you learned about communication through having a stutter? And what has it changed? And what advice would you give to people who might have some speech impediment, everything from an accent to a stutter?

12:40It was really hard as a kid. I mean, I was teased for it. I think teachers in school didn't know how to handle it. So some would not call on me because, you know, out of positive intent, but not wanting me to have to speak. Like when I was called on to read something, if you stutter, it's very difficult because one of the tools you use is you substitute words and you can't do that when you read something. I think what it made me throughout my life is my empathy for people and expressing themselves is much higher. I think I'm much more aware of speech. And I told you, I think one of the things I started doing as a kid was watching people give speeches and just being more aware of the mechanics that they use.

13:21so I became much more obsessed with it. I think my approach, I think my parents had a big impact on was, you know, when I was a kid, my parents' approach was, we expect you to talk and communicate. You can stutter and you stutter, but we don't expect you to let that block you from doing anything. And so when they had friends over, the expectation was I would sit with their friends and join them in conversation. And so I think their very much approach was, I'm gonna give you a hug, but you just are gonna keep going. So I think that's probably part of my appreciation on the oratory side. That notion of taking what you're dealt with and managing it, I think, is important for everybody, be it an accent, a stutter.

14:02I'm noticing a theme, David, across everything we've talked about. Tenacity plays a role. We talked about tenacity in pursuing getting people to sign up when you were just starting out. Tenacity in the work that you admire and the masters you bring on. And tenacity in your own life to just keep going with your communication. And that's something that I think all of us can benefit from. And it will look different for all of us, but it's important. Yeah, I don't think life is worth to live without that. You have to work hard. And I think sometimes surprises, like I remember I was in some group with an exercise where we would give people feedback on how the person talks.

14:40And I was shocked. I got notes on my stutter. And what the group said, the effects were, it was the opposite of what I had in my head. out of my head makes me sound less smart, makes me not get the idea out. People get bored. People get annoyed. People have an urge to say the word for you. And the group was like, oh, that doesn't go through our head. I'm like, what? I'm like, what does go through your head? You're like, oh, I'm more endeared to you. Like I'm seeing this as difficult for you. I'm more like attached to you. I'm like, I'm sorry, what? And it's just for 28 years of my life, I had this one story in my head and that was not the story everybody else was having.

15:16And you're like, I think that's true for so many of the things that we are insecure about. What a lovely gift to get that. And perhaps there's a lesson in there for all of us to seek out feedback from trusted others who can help us check our assumptions because you had an assumption going into this that was contrary to what you learned. We'll be right back to finish our conversation. But first, we're going to take a quick break for a word from our sponsors. Their support covers the cost of production so we can bring you this show for free. This podcast is sponsored by Squarespace. The best communicators don't just get their message across.

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17:06Their mattresses are designed around different sleep positions and feel preferences. And their sleep quiz can help you find the right match in less than two minutes. Plus, they offer free shipping, easy returns, and a 365-night sleep trial. Go to Lisa.com for up to 30 % off mattresses. Plus, get an extra 50 % off with promo code THINKFAST, exclusive for our listeners. That's Lisa, L-E-E-S-A dot com. promo code THINKFAST for up to 30 % off mattresses plus an extra$50 off. Let them know that we sent you at the survey at the end of checkout. This whole conversation has been fantastic, David. As you well know, I end with three questions.

17:49One I make up just for you and two that I've been asking everybody for a long time. Are you up for that? Let's do it. Another personal question, you and I talked on our way over to this conversation. You and I are both martial artists. Tenacity is part of that as well. What draws you to the martial arts and are there any lessons that you've learned? I've learned a lot of lessons for life in the dojo. I'm curious what draws you and what lessons? Part of what draws me in, I like it that for the hour and hour and a half I'm there, you can't think of anything else because otherwise you are going to get choked out.

18:18I also, it makes me so much more aware of things I wasn't aware of. The angle of my wrist, the how I'm shifting my bot, my weight. And there's an appreciation of craft and skill that was invisible to me before. I didn't even know. I never even thought of those things before. So there's appreciation there. There is a humility because you get your butt kicked all the time. There is nothing like the immediate feedback you get in a physical activity. There's no ifs, ands and buts, you get the feedback, both good and bad. And I totally resonate when you say you become aware of things that you didn't even know that you didn't know you knew.

19:01And I totally appreciate that presence that it requires. And these are skills that anybody can find in any physical activity. It doesn't have to be grappling with somebody or throwing a kick or a punch. It could be walking in nature. But I really like that you see that. Question number two, who's a communicator that you admire and why? There are a lot. I'm going to pick one that isn't as expected. Vintage Jesse Jackson. There's a speech he gave in 1984 when he was running to be the Democratic nominee for president. And he gave the speech in a church in Philadelphia. The speech is remarkable. Amazing example.

19:42It's clearly an amazing communicator. Final question, David. What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? I think you've got to figure out one is what does that person actually want to need right now? This is another part of your rest of yours. Then the ability to change and adapt that on the fly when you see they've done it. And then keeping like the eyes on the prize. What I mean by this is you might be in a negotiation where somebody just needs to vent. And when they vent, they're going to say things that you probably do not agree with. But if your eyes on the prize and the prize is to close the deal, you don't need to argue about each of those things.

20:26You just let the person talk. You say you heard them and you try to figure out how to move things along. But it's very easy to be like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I didn't agree to parts two, eight and 12 that you just said. But doing that isn't going to actually solve anything. So it's about audience. Make sure you understand what they need. It's about agility to adjust to what happens. and then that focus on what your ultimate goal is, regardless of some of the hiccups and backward steps that happen along the way. David, this has been a fantastic conversation. Sharing your motivations, your tenacity are great insights for all of us and a role model for what we can achieve.

21:01And thank you for putting out educational content that we can all benefit from and grow with. Oh my God, of course. And thanks for being a part of it. Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. To learn more about communication in a variety of contexts, please check out our many back catalog episodes. This episode was produced by Catherine Reed, Alex McCarthy, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is from Floyd Wonder with special thanks to Podium Podcast Company. Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us.

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