866: Watch Out for That Tree

25:44Two days later, Noor's mom and sister took her home from the hospital. They went to park the car. She took Dean upstairs. So when I first came into the apartment, I was by myself. Very quiet. And, like, you know, I, like, put him down in his car seat just on the kitchen floor. And it was, we got home around, like, sunset. And the sunset was, like, beautiful. It was, like, this, I mean, you can see my apartment. There's a lot of, like, sun that comes in. And it was just, like, shining, like, into our apartment. I had this beautiful baby. and then it was just quiet in the apartment. Mahmoud was not there.

26:23And it just kind of like, that's when it hit me. And then I just started crying and I'm just looking at Dean and his car seat. He was sleeping like so peacefully. I mean, I was upset. I was so mad it was not the way I had imagined and it was not the way that we had talked about. It was a very frustrating day, I think.

26:53So April 3rd, Mahmoud didn't get the new job. April 21st, the baby came, and he wasn't there. He was still in detention, and it wasn't clear when or if he'd get out. This is as good a spot as any to talk about the charges that were keeping Mahmoud in detention and upending his life, and to talk about the stakes of this case for the whole country. Traditionally, of course, the kind of thing that Mahmoud did, he was part of student protests, would have been seen as being protected by the Constitution. It's part of our right to free speech. But the argument the administration is making in court is that the Secretary of State has the power to decide that somebody's presence in the United States undermines U.S.

27:33foreign policy and then kick them out of the country. This is based on an immigration law enacted at the height of McCarthyism in the 1950s. And the things that the administration believes that Mahmoud Khalil has done, that merit getting kicked out of the country, that would override his right to free speech. Those things actually are not spelled out in the government's filings in the case. But when White House Press Secretary Carolyn Levitt tried to explain how Mahmoud undermines U.S. policy at a press conference, she said Mahmoud first came here to study. And he took advantage of that opportunity, of that privilege, by siding with terrorists, Hamas terrorists who have killed innocent men, women, and children.

28:13This is an individual who organized group protests that not only disrupted college campus classes and harassed Jewish American students and made them feel unsafe, but also distributed pro-Hamas propaganda, flyers with the logo of Hamas. That is what the behavior and activity that this individual engaged in. That's what this individual distributed on the campus of Columbia University. The White House has talked about pro-Hamas flyers distributed at some Columbia protests. Did you know about flyers like that? I did not. I mean, there's absolutely no truth to these allegations, like at all. Yeah, I would never.

28:53I mean, for so many reasons, I would never do that, like for so, so many reasons. The protest is about ending the genocide and ending Colombia's complicity in war crimes. That was about it. Why would they bring such flyers? What would it do to the cause? The administration found a new line of attack on this subject this summer, when Mahmoud did not condemn Hamas in an interview on CNN and another interview on Ezra Klein's podcast, saying the question was a distraction and that he condemned the killing of all civilians. The Department of Homeland Security posted in response, quote, Mahmoud Khalil refuses to condemn Hamas because he is a terrorist sympathizer, not because DHS painted him as one.

29:34As for the administration's bigger point, that the protests themselves were anti-Semitic, Mahmoud says exactly what so many people say, that it's possible to criticize Israel's actions in Gaza without being either anti-Semitic or aligned with Hamas.

29:55One thing that's genuinely confusing about the administration's argument in all these student deportation cases is this idea that a student protester can somehow undermine U.S. foreign policy. Like, what could that possibly mean? I mean, sure, students were asking the government to change its foreign policy and not keep funding Israel. But urging some policy change is just normal politics in the United States. President Trump did it when he ran for office. That is not undermining any policy. The only clue that the administration has given about what this might mean came in April, when the government submitted to the court a brief memo from the Secretary of State saying that Mahmoud's presence in the United States, undermines U.S.

30:37policy to combat anti-Semitism around the world and in the United States. But again, no explanation of how this one grad student who is no longer a grad student was achieving that lofty goal. In fact, in immigration court, the administration argued that it should not have to make any kind of argument or explanation or present any evidence at all for how Mahmoud is undermining U.S. foreign policy. The government's lawyers argued that if the Secretary of State says that that's true, then that's that. No discussion needed. That's all that's required to deport him. If the government wins this case, presumably the Secretary of State would be able to declare without any explanation or any proof that lots of other people are deportable.

31:17I did reach out to both the Department of Homeland Security and the State Department asking how Mahmoud's actions undermine U.S. foreign policy. The furthest I got was this not very illuminating answer to my question from a senior State Department official. Quote, As you know, there's ongoing litigation with respect to this matter. However, our position is that the actions of the United States, with respect to Mahmoud Khalil, were correct and necessary and fully supported both by fact and by law.

31:50In May, a federal judge ruled that the law that the government's using to go after Mahmoud is unconstitutionally vague. And then in June, the judge said that Mahmoud was likely being targeted for deportation by the administration for exercising his First Amendment right to free speech. And he set him free. Mahmoud flew home to New York June 21st, after 104 days in detention. When Noor and Dean greeted him at the airport, it was only the second time Mahmoud had seen his son in person. The first was in a cold courtroom in Louisiana. And from the moment he returned to New York, there was something new derailing the life he and Noor had planned.

32:29His own fame. Welcome home, Mahmoud Khalil. Did you see Mahmoud Khalil? Mahmoud Khalil. Mahmoud Khalil. Mahmoud Khalil back home in New York tonight. His second day in New York, he was mobbed like the Beatles at a rally near Colombia. Security had to push people back. He gave a speech in front of a church, which his friend Jasmine decided to skip. She went inside the church and took care of Dean. But I wasn't going to watch him give a speech in front of people. I don't know. And he was like, why? And I was like, I don't want to see people looking at you that way. And Mahmoud Challah or Mahmoud Madness or whatever it was.

33:07Does he seem different?

33:13Yeah. He's not focused. There's a weird distraction. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, he's like a finger. People know who he is. Like, there's a coffee shop near my house, and they have, like, a big picture of Mahmoud on the door. So I go there every day. I'm like, oh, there's Mahmoud on the door. Or, like, I went to Times Square for some ungodly reason on the subway, and it says, Mahmoud on one of the subway signs. It's just, like, I don't know if he really understood. Like, I couldn't grapple with that idea that everybody knows who he is. It's just a really strange thing for anybody to have to go through.

33:51Is it hard to get your mind around, though? just like how well known you are? I'm still, I'm still comprehending that. So maybe I'm trying to push thinking about it. And yeah, to be honest, I haven't like yeah, contemplated that as of yet. His fame kind of annoys me, to be honest. Yeah. What do you mean annoys? It just, it's just a reminder of like how absurd the whole situation is. Like he shouldn't be famous. Nobody should know who he is. It doesn't make any sense. And that this reason why Mahmoud's famous is because like something absurd happened that never should have happened. And it just, yeah, it annoys me.

34:43It makes me angry because, you know, if he wanted this and voluntarily chose it, great. But to have it forced upon him like that, I don't like it. Mahmoud's fame infected everything about their lives. A few weeks after he was released, they were still living in Columbia Student Housing, an apartment they'd have to move out of soon. Mahmoud was supposed to be finding an apartment for them. And he'd been putting it off. Yeah, I procrastinate a lot. Noor hates that. We need to move in less than two weeks. And here we are. We don't have an apartment. Are you serious? Less than two weeks? Yeah, less than two weeks.

35:22We need to move at the end of this month. Can you shop for apartments like normal people right now? I mean, I have my cap. And he wears a cap all the time. Oh, you have a cap like you're in disguise. Yes, like in disguise.

35:37And one of, it was funny, one of the agents was like, I've seen you somewhere. I was like, maybe, I'm not sure. He played it off really well. He needs the disguise because there have been so many threats against them. And he's recognized so often when he goes out without it. When Noor walks on the street with baby Dean, people come up to her. One time a stranger asked, is that Mahmoud Khalil's son? She didn't know if it was going to be good or bad. It's scary. And mostly, they've avoided leaving the apartment. And when Mahmoud does decide to go outside, It's to go to Washington to spend the day talking to members of Congress.

36:16Or to stand on stage in front of 3 ,000 people with comedian Rami Youssef and New York City mayoral candidate Zoran Mamdani.

36:30This positive side of his fame, the fact that people pay attention to him, seems for now to be deeply outweighed by the negative side. Mahmoud told us that given the choice, he would no question prefer the life that he was lining up for this year. The job at Oxfam, being there for Dean's birth, and not being famous over the life that he's ended up in. Case in point, it is really not clear what kind of job he's going to be able to get. Like, how do you picture what kind of work you're going to be able to get now? I'm trying to, as much as possible, to postpone having that conversation with myself.

37:10just like thinking, oh, now I can't work for Oxfam or for an organization at the UN. And it's scary and like we did not have much money before my arrest. I mean, until now we don't have any money, to be honest.

37:31There are two different cases that are going to determine whether Mahmoud will be deported. One is in federal court and may be appealed all the way up to the Supreme Court. The other is an immigration court. That one could be decided in a few months and could result in his expulsion. If it does, the government says it will either send him to Syria, where he was born, but doesn't have citizenship, or to Algeria, where he's a citizen but has never lived. I was at a hearing in immigration court where they talked about where to send him. Four expert witnesses said if he were sent to either place, Mahmoud would be at great risk to be harmed or killed.

38:10Probably the most heart-wrenching moment of that hearing happened near the end of the day. Mahmoud said if he were deported, he wanted to go alone. He didn't want to expose Noor and Dean to any extra danger because of him. When he said this in his testimony, I looked over, and I could see Noor crying. Later, she told me, this is how he always is. Protective of her and his family, now Dean. It's sweet, she said, but sometimes she doesn't agree. And that's where this interruption in their plans has left them. They don't know if they'll end up here or abroad, together or apart. They're waiting to see what the new plan for their life is going to be.

39:00Coming up, a 16-year-old plans a prank, and a complete stranger from Honduras ends up in a million-dollar deal. What could possibly go wrong with that? That's in a minute. Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues. This message comes from Capital One. Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about. In a good way. Capital One, what's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank. Capital One N.A. Member FDIC. Support for This American Life comes from Mint Mobile.

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40:29The GMC Sierra lineup, featuring the Sierra 1500, the Sierra Heavy Duty, and the all-electric Sierra EV. Because true bliss is removing every shadow from every doubt. GMC. We are professional grade. Visit GMC.com to learn more. This is American Life. I'm Ira Glass. Today's program, watch out for that tree. Stories of people who carefully, meticulously plan for one future. and then the plans are derailed by forces much bigger than they are. We've arrived at Act 2 of our program, Act 2, The Engineer. The plan that goes a kilter in this act is actually a prank. A prank done years ago by a child who has now grown up into an adult.

41:14His name is Kieran. As a kid growing up in England, he was obsessed with soccer. And his first baby pranks happened on the day that soccer teams in England finished adding new players to their rosters. This always got live TV coverage. Kieran and his friend would head down to where the cameras were set up, doing live news spots. And we'd walk over and we'd just, like, stare really blankly into the camera, like, you know, yokels that hadn't seen technology before. And then we'd rush back and we'd see if anyone had seen it on TV and be like, oh my God, who are those freaks in the back? And that was us.

41:45But then when they got to middle school age, they got more ambitious with their pranking. They wanted to start a rumor and get it onto their favorite TV channel, Sky Sports News. Kieran says they designed the rumor to be kind of amusing, but also plausible. The rumor they made up was that this soccer player, William Gallas, was going to sign with a not-very-good team, Birmingham. Like, you know, lower-mid-table, dowdy-old Birmingham. You know, he's on the out, he's old, it could happen. Let's try and just put some calls in. So these kids, they caught up a hotel in Birmingham and booked a room in the player's name.

42:23This player, William Gallas, is French. So Kieran pretended to be a French sports agent with a kind of terrible French accent. Oh, it's talking like this, you know. So can I have a rumor that it's coming in? My client, William. Oh, you cannot tell what it is for. It is for Birmingham. That task finished. Rumors reserved. He caught up the press. It was as easy as saying to a few papers, I've just heard from my friend who works at the Malmaison, the hotel. don't take it from me but apparently William Gallas has booked a room he's coming in tonight and then telling Sky Sports all of this oh my god my phone's been blowing up apparently William Gallas is going to Birmingham I've heard it from this guy at this paper I've heard it from the guy at the hotel and then the next morning we're watching Sky Sports news again there's a flash interview with Alex McLeish who was the manager at the time and it's just 10 seconds of oh you've been linked with William Gallas.

43:19Do you have anything to say about that? No, no, nothing than that. I've got two young centre-halves and it's not the right move for me. I need to spend my money on other positions or spend the club's money on other positions that we really need to improve things. That was one of the funniest moments of our entire lives. It's just like being just hit by a tsunami. It was just, oh my God. It was here, sat on this floor by this TV yesterday. Today it is coming out of the TV. This is ridiculously powerful. It's like, if we can do that, what else can we do? That what else can we do is the plan that they launched into next.

43:59A plan that succeeded at a level that stunned these two kids. Okay, so I first heard this story on a podcast I've been listening to, Pablo Torre Finds Out, which I don't know exactly how to describe this. It's sort of an investigative reporting sports show It's also pretty funny. Anyway, Kieran told the story to Pablo, and then Pablo agreed to adapt it for our show. And so here now to tell you this story is Pablo Torre. At age 16, Kieran Morris was experiencing what can only be described as a puberty of the ego. He was still lightheaded, a little high, off the intoxicating success of his French accent.

44:35And now he wanted more. He wanted to go big game hunting. Find another soccer player and engineer an even bigger prank on the global soccer media. The only question was which player they should use. And then one day in the summer of 2012, the London Olympics happened to be on TV. Honduras versus Morocco. It's, oh, is there anyone here? Let's look through the squad list. And we looked at a few, you know, a few of them had already gone to Europe. A few of them already had a bit of hype around them. but there was a 19 year old number 10 making his first waves into the national team it was fairly dynamic on the day his name was alexander lopez he hadn't left honduras he had a pretty modest but good goal record a little bit of detail on him and i don't know what it was but we just fixed our eyes on him and before we know it we're at the big boxy computer in the study going through Wikipedia, juicing it up a little bit with a bit more bio here.

45:36What are you editing on Wikipedia? Oh, it's basically at this point, it's a blank page. So a season had just gone by, the 11-12 season. It had no detail on it. Let's give him some references for, you know, a great series of goals in the Honduran League. So they went in a few times over months and kept juicing the numbers. Statistically, what are you giving him? What kind of an upgrade are you giving him? 18 goals, 34 assists, you know, crazy, crazy, crazy figures. If you watch a player do that to your league, they're an object of fascination. Other people are rising with his tide. He's that talented.

46:15The assists I always thought were the flourish. But from the beginning, the boldest thing they did is something you can still see right now. Forever etched in the Wikipedia history of the page for Olympia midfielder Alexander Lopez. because Kieran Morris went back to add one more line, a nickname, which he placed at the very top. He is known to Olympia fans as the Honduran Maradona.

46:47Diego Maradona is one of the two or three greatest players in the history of soccer. That sound was him achieving immortality in the 1986 World Cup for Argentina against England. He is also one of its most colorfully reckless characters, to say the least. And all of this is to say that Kieran comparing an effectively anonymous soccer player named Alexander Lopez to Diego Maradona was absurd. A real heat check. But for the people who'd never paid attention to soccer in Honduras, meaning pretty much everyone, this nickname was also plausible. And so the next step of Kieran's plan was to call up a newspaper, Rupert Murdoch's London Times.

47:31And the persona Kieran invented this time was an eager freelance journalist named Neil Barker. And as soon as Neil Barker heard a human voice on the other line, he pitched that human an item he had just heard about an Olympic-level prospect named Alexander Lopez. because the Honduran Maradona, Neil Barker said, was signing with Wigan, a team in the English Premier League based in Greater Manchester. And Neil Barker sounded legit. Oh, I think he talked a bit like this. So it's a bit more Mancunian and a bit more... Yeah, so I've heard a little bit about Wigan signing another Honduran lad. He's playing at the Olympics now.

48:13He's called Alexander Lopez. Apparently, he's really, really good. Two and a half million is what I've heard from the physio. Oh, you're the physio's friend. Oh, the physio's friend. Like, you just piece it together like that, where it's, ooh, a physio's friend could have let that slip. A medical could be happening. And then the Times, I remember I was on the phone with a guy for 20 minutes, and he was taking down every detail.

48:42I think, for the very least, the Times, when they put it in the paper, they believed it. And then the year afterwards, we saw the news that the Houston Dynamo had paid a million dollars for Alexander Lopez. We just thought, oh my God. Like, there were the stats on the press release. 18 goals, 34 assists. They had, you know, a YouTube clip of him up. The comments of that had, you know, welcome the Honduran Maradona. We looked at the SB Nation posts and we looked at the Reddit boards and there it was. Like, we looked away for like a second. And this wildfire seemingly had spread through Major League Soccer.

49:30I'm now looking at the press release off of HoustonDynamoFC.com and it says, quote, quote, his record of 18 goals and 34 assists in 51 league games for Olympia testifies, testifies to his creative and goal scoring potential, which feels like you wrote that. But no, like this just got aggregated everywhere. Like you look it up now and it's like Fox News dot com has a story about this, quoting those numbers. And there's this one fan site. They're not just quoting the statistics, Kieran. they're they're quoting the legend the nickname that you invented out of nothing yeah as soon as i saw that press release i was sat down in my study on the other side of the city where i lived and it's the one where he's holding the shirt and it says alex 10 got the number 10 maradona's number holding it proudly in orange in the sun in houston and the first thing i did was i made it my laptop background.

50:31I put it on the wall like a hunting trophy. I was just like, there we go. There we have it. You're a terror. I know. What a terror you were. Are. Were, I hope. I think I'm reformed.

50:55The Houston Dynamo signing the Honduran Maradona immediately became Kieran's defining story. Because, of course, it did. Kieran Morris told the story of how he pranked this dumb soccer team, these credulous Americans in Texas who were so unfamiliar with his favorite sport that he conned them into dropping a million dollars on an edited Wikipedia page. And he told this yarn in those terms. to anyone and everyone who would listen. Oh, yeah. I mean, directly, directly led me to jobs. Directly led me into what I do today. The magazine job that I have today, I pitched doing the Honduran Maradona the whole run-through in my job interview.

51:37It's, you know, hire me. I'm precocious. I can take a kid from Central America and make him into a millionaire. What could I do for you? and i like the idea of you bragging about this like on dates well my my now fiance um i started going out with sarah um who will be listening hello um at the end of 2014 so it's nine years just after school and so it worked on her years and years ago nine years ago she hates every beat every turn every single mention of alexander lopez because she has heard me pull that routine hundreds of times with hundreds of different people like she rolls her eyes like default all of this hype around this story that was all tied into this hype i did around myself never once did i think um you know what's what has happened to him what really has happened to him to his family.

52:39And that, bit by bit, as I got older, that became a bigger thing in my mind.

52:53Lopez only lasted a few seasons in Houston, didn't play a lot. And Kieran began to wonder if his prank had been part of the reason things worked out so badly for Alexander Lopez. if he had callously tampered with the life of a promising young soccer player, setting him up for a fall in Houston, giving fans unrealistic expectations, disappointing coaches and teammates. Kieran felt guilty. And so, about a decade later, Kieran pitched yet another British newspaper, The Guardian this time, on the untold backstory of the Honduran Maradona, the true story of what he'd done. This reporting trip, this guilt trip, is what brought Kieran Morris at long last to Houston, home of the hapless Dynamo, where he could finally discover what really happened once his million-dollar invention showed up for work.

53:49Dynamo management remembered Lopez clearly. He was a really nice kid when he arrived, and he was fresh-faced and eager. There was a big Spanish-speaking contingent in the club, as there is in the city. and they just helped him settle in and get his fitness up. But what I've heard from speaking with Dom Kinnear, who was the manager at the time, was that fitness was, I think, the big obstacle for adapting to the MLS. I think at first, I think the speed of play and the physicalness of the players, no less than what he was used to in Honduras. So we were expecting a bit more of an attacking presence from him, and I think it took him a little while to get adjusted.

54:31What did they scout, actually? What did they tell you about what they saw themselves in terms of them evaluating him? What did they do? Oh, they flew out and watched games in Ponduras. They put their due diligence in to monitor him and watch videos and all of these things to make sure that, you know, this guy was something good. We did take a trip down to Honduras to watch him play for his club, and he passed all the tests for us, and it was after that, and we kind of set up a meeting with our owners to let the players are interested in a Honduran player south of the border as a bright future.

55:04But as the MLS was professionalizing and intensifying, you need to run a lot more. You need to run a lot, lot more. You need to contribute to all sides of the game. You need to be that, you know, modern total footballer to an extent. You kind of need to be a bit more like the Honduran Maradona that was promised, who was, again, like Maradona, one of the fastest and most physical athletes, as well as the most, you know, one of the most infamous, right? But he's known for his athleticism, his physicality, his speed, also obviously rampant cocaine use. But as a side note, but the point is that the guy who arrived, he was less than, unsurprisingly, what that fake nickname you made up had suggested.

55:48Exactly. And early doors, I watched, I think it was first game against New York Red Bulls. and there's a moment he pulls out this like amazing pass to i think jason johnson and he scores to make it i think 1-1 with the dynamo and there's lopez that's what he can do lopez johnson is tied it up spectacular goal alexander lopez with a passing gem and a first ever goal for jason johnson and then the dynamo get turned over they lose 4-1 the season generally falls off the rails fairly quickly. And as Kieran was canvassing the training ground, talking to all these people who worked for the Dynamo, he started realizing something important.

56:32He discovered that the people he thought were these credulous Americans had actually done the research. They'd taken some international trips to Honduras themselves. It was one thing to write that press release and copy those fake statistics off Wikipedia, which the Dynamo clearly did. But they hadn't outsourced their entire scouting department to some British teenager. Well, I remember the one that really set me back was speaking to Dom Kinnear. And I asked him, you know, have you ever heard the nickname the Honduran Maradona? And he sort of rocks back in his chair and he smiles and he laughs and he goes, I've heard some nicknames in my day, but the first I heard that was from you today.

57:15Kieran, I haven't heard that until you said it just now. Like, literally never. Like, okay, check one on that. Chris Canetti, who was the president at the time of Houston Dynamo, he very, like, breezily, like, almost offhandedly said, yeah, yeah, we heard of that. Yeah, we knew about that at the time of the signing, but didn't make too much of that. I don't think he, not meant it, but I think what he meant by that was we knew there was some hype around him. because it was so breezily toft off. It wasn't, it didn't give me anything like, oh yeah, he's heard it. And then Nick Cowba, the assistant GM, was just clear as anything.

57:56Nope. Yeah, you get the Honduran Messi, you get the, you know, whatever. So I don't really take stock in somebody's nickname, to be honest. Even if we did hear it, we wouldn't care because those nicknames don't matter to us in the professional soccer industry. What you're thinking as you are, as your life, the story you tell yourself about yourself is just being dismissed as just like obviously unserious. Like, of course, we don't give a **** about that. That's like just a thing someone says. When they tell you that the legend doesn't even matter to them who made the decision, what's going through your head?

58:38i think the first thought was that i'm a long way from home that i have got this far what 12 hours flight over face time with you know sports executives who've taken time out of their day to speak to me and just thinking oh god why did i even lift under the rock with this one like i could have just kept on not bothering the story leaving the ghosts to rest and all of that and i didn't and i picked at the scab too much and now now it's all coming out now i'm seeing it i'm in the room with the adults the adults who made the decisions the proper people who weren't just spinning yarns and telling stories and smoking areas and all of that with the actual people doing their job to think that i've been entertaining the idea that one day they opened up their laptops while they were watching the olympics just as i was and thought oh look at all these goals and assists you know chris go get your go get your checkbook when you see it all now just kieran what a literal child's version of how sports works

59:56But there was one more thing that Kieran had to do, now that he was telling the true story of the Honduran Maradona, and it was simple. Kieran Morris needed to come clean to Alexander Lopez himself. No, Kieran hadn't ruined Lopez's life, it turned out. But he tried to mess with it, did his best, gave him that absurd nickname without ever really thinking through the consequences. So this was a kind of weird confession. Lopez was now playing for a team in Costa Rica. Kieran found his agent, calmed his own nerves, and without explaining to the agent why he kept on insisting on interviewing Alexander Lopez in person, Kieran got on a plane.

1:00:39And one day, at a Costa Rican Hilton, the Honduran Maradona walked in. We shook hands. It was, you know, journalist and subject, sit down, interpreter in the middle. Kieran Morris speaking. Indiana Castillo, the translator.

1:00:58They talked through his career. Lopez had no bad memories of Houston. He had a rough time on a Saudi Arabian team for a while, but quit that contract, went to Honduras.

1:01:12And that run back in Honduras, he was banging in the goals. He was winning trophies. He was an all, you know, free-flowing, goal-scoring number 10 in Honduras. He finally had the record that we had made up for him when he was 19. He was at 24 or whatever he was then. He was ripping up the Honduran League. And after stalling for as long as he could with details about Lopez's career, Kieran started edging up to the reason he was even there. Had Lopez ever heard of this nickname, the Honduran Maradona? He had. He absolutely had. He had heard it. But he thought it was just a fun, silly nickname made up by the fans.

1:02:10The surname came along simply because, you know, a lot of newspapers and journalists were talking about it and they would say that I was like a young Maradona. I had the same skills that Maradona had when he was that age too. I know that, but of course, we all know that Maradona, you know, what he was, really. So it's just that.

1:02:35And that was about as far as it went. And there was a split second where I thought, shake hands and let him go. Tiniest split second. but I don't know what dragged me out of that and I can hear it on the interview tape those first like stutters like excuse me, before you go one thing, one more thing while I'm here and while I have you and then I've already rehearsed the spiel with the interpreter she's not caught off guard so awkward imagining this so beat for beat I'll do like one tenth of the story and then I'll pause and then she'll do it in Spanish When you were linked with Wigan, I had changed Wikipedia around.

1:03:19I had called the papers. And then I will do the next bit and the next bit. And then it's all of those moments where I know I'm talking and he's not reacting. But then I just sit back and watch his reaction. I'm studying him while I'm waiting to say something again. And I just keep talking and talking and talking. Ten years ago, I invented the name the Honduran Maradona.

1:03:51And he starts laughing. And that could mean a multitude of things. But he thought it was funny and benign and inconsequential and saw it for what it was, which was nothing.

1:04:18When my agent told me a journalist wanted to do an interview, I was sort of like, huh? Why? But now I get it.

1:04:32How does he feel about using that nickname, the Honduran Maradona? Does he embrace it? What's his feeling on that? He was very old school about it. He was like, oh, no, no, no. There's only one Maradona. But he's got a better nickname now. He's the engineer. El ingeniero, as they call him. And his mom loves it. I think his brother actually is an engineer, so it's cool for them. The fans gave it to him, which is how nicknames should work. And it sums him up. He dictates play from the middle of the field. He's crafty. He's intelligent. It's who he is. And it wasn't randomly made up by a child. That nickname, the engineer, is so perfect.

1:05:18It's so perfect because Kieran thought he was the engineer rerouting Alexander Lopez's life. but he wasn't. This entire time, Alexander Lopez had been engineering Alexander Lopez's trajectory. Because of course he was, through all the ups and downs, which meant that the legend that Kieran had most invented was his own. Dead right. Dead right. And this is what it's a story of. It's a story of a kid who just took something way, way, way, way, way too far in his own mind. and has been telling people about it for 10 years since. Kieran Morris, thank you for coming clean about who you actually are.

1:06:04It's a pleasure. It's a pleasure. I'm closer to knowing.

1:06:19That story was adapted from the podcast Pablo Torre finds out, which Pablo likes to say is a show about sports. The Way Moneyball is a book about baseball. I've been enjoying it. And he just had a big story this week about salary caps and Kawhi Leonard that made national headlines, thanks also to his producer, Chris Tuminello.

1:06:42We'll be right back.

1:07:06and Marisa Robertson-Texter, our managing editor, Sara Abdurrahman, our senior editor, David Kestenbaum, our executive editor, Emanuel Berry. This week, we say goodbye to our office coordinator, Jindai Bonds. She is off to teach music to kids, which, frankly, is a much more interesting job than the job she had with us, and she gets to use her talents way more in this new job. We will miss her, though. Special thanks today to Valerie Caesar, Mariam Alwan, Grant Miner, Carly Schaefer, Ramzi Qasim, Joseph Howley, Ju Taha, Dialla Shamas, Sheza Abushi Dalal, Rosie Fitzgerald, Amber Van Shassen, Mai Kang Yol, Noor Benavides, Sari Yassin, Rami Yusuf, Lily Salzberg, Gaia Karamazza, and the filmmakers of The Encampments.

1:07:45It has been an entire week since I have mentioned that if you become a This American Life partner, you get ad-free listening, you get a Greatest Hits archive right in your podcast feed, and you get access to bonus episodes. There are now dozens of them. Some of them are honestly really kind of wonderful. To check them out, subscribe at thisamericanlife.org slash lifepartners. This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the public radio exchange. Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Tori Malatia. You know, he got into his first bar fight this week. What did it feel like?

1:08:19What I felt was as if somebody took a bottle and, like, slammed it onto my head. I'm Eric Glass. Back next week with more stories of This American Life.

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