877: The Making Of

25:34And the police have also seen him, quote, antagonizing the protesters until assaulted, end quote. His ex-bio reads, right-wing provocateur. For example, some guy goes, oh, F you fascist. I'm like, oh, seriously? And I'll walk up in their face and say, what do you want? And then they'll push me, and I'll push them right back, and they fall to the ground. That's provocative, and then that leads to violence. That's one night out of an entire summer, though. So you don't think, even though you call yourself a provocateur, you don't think you're really provoking them? With my physical actions, no. But my presence, yes.

26:10Okay. Yeah. And is the point of that in order to make them react so that you can prove your point that they are violent? It's to prove my point that they think they own the city. And my point, I do it to, you know, to take away their narrative that, you know, they can do whatever they want. This is precisely exactly how many of the streamers and right-wing influencers feel. that even if Trump is in office, there's a double standard when it comes to the left and enforcement. The January 6th protesters were cracked down on, and these protesters are not. So yeah, they might get in a protester's face and taunt them or film them.

26:56If the protester responds with aggression, well, that's just revealing who they are. It's fair game.

27:07I want to pivot for a moment to say something about the cops. The cops are a great focus of the streamers' ire. They think the cops are in league with the protesters. They call them cop-tifa. Say they don't arrest the protesters enough. The protesters would disagree. The night we were there, though, everyone agrees was a big turning point. It seemed the cops were cracking down. In fact, hours before Suze and I showed up here, 30 of them had descended on the protesters' tent and demanded its removal. The tent had been cleared before, but not like this. This time, there was less warning than usual, and there was just so many police.

27:44In general, people said there were a lot more police all of a sudden, patrolling everything and issuing citations. And what made this happen, the streamers will tell you. A lot of it comes down to this one video, of course, from early October. A video from Ryan, actually, featuring the most known Fox ubiquitous guy down here, Nick Sorter. He got into a scuffle with protesters. He was filming them. One of them started yelling at him and then pushed him with an umbrella. I will suck your ass up. Get out of here. Then a crowd formed and he got pushed into this hole.

28:21It's more like a huge dip in the ground covered in grass. It's called a bioswale. It's for rain runoff. Two of the protesters, and Nick, were arrested for disorderly conduct. Nick spent the night in jail. Donald Trump texted him, We are behind you 100%. Basically, keep your head up like he was Tupac. Nick ended up released and not charged with anything. Immediately afterward, the Department of Justice, the Civil Rights Division, opened an investigation into, quote, quote, viewpoint discrimination by the Portland police. Nick himself has started the process to sue the police department for$10 million, alleging systemic bias against conservatives, saying the department was riddled with Antifa.

29:12Six days after the arrest, Nick and the other influencers were at the White House doing that roundtable. Yes, anding the president's promise to send the National Guard into Portland to police this block because the police were not. And that got a ton of coverage on right-wing media. And that's why the streamers think the cops are acting differently tonight. Some of them, including Mike, the vet from Idaho, think the cops are scared of all this exposure. All the streamers coming down here, just the pressure that's been built from it and, you know, Fox News talking about them, they have to enforce the law and it has to be equal.

29:49It's definitely changed things. But why take Mike's word for it? Guess who showed up for Patriots weekend? It's Nick Sorter himself. He's right here. What do you think, Nick? Do you think that stuff like what happened to you changed what the police were doing? I mean, it sort of brought nationwide attention to the issue. Obviously, my intent was to bring nationwide attention to the issue, but not in that manner. Not in the manner of getting arrested. Not in the manner of being arrested. But I was on Laurie Ingram's show, I guess, three hours before I was arrested. The fact that I had just done that hit and it was fresh and then I was arrested on that Thursday night.

30:34And then that whole Friday was just nonstop coverage of the arrest ever since then. I mean, they've pretty much been talking about it in at least one segment of each show every night. So, I mean, I've done probably six or seven primetime Fox hits since then. Standing here on this block full of streamers, I just want to point out this is the dream. Saturation coverage with footage these guys filmed stamped with their handles. Anyway, after all the attention Nick got for his arrest, including the Department of Justice investigation into the Portland police, it seemed to the streamers that the cops were policing the protesters more strictly, like clearing the tent and everything.

31:20So we asked the police, were the streamers right? Were they policing differently after an extorter? And they responded they were doing more enforcement, but for a different reason. Quote, if there was any change, it was in the crowd's behavior. We began to see an influx of streamers, the people who want to monetize the situation. Still quoting the police here. They went on. The increase in the number of live streamers and personalities in the area contributed to an environment where tension and confrontation escalated. Many of these individuals were creating content for audiences that reward intensity and conflict, which can sometimes amplify volatile situations.

32:03In other words, the live streamers made the protesters act up and the police crack down on both of them. That is definitely not how the streamers interpreted things. On this night, certainly, they just thought they were winning.

32:24It's after midnight now. The streamers seem to be on a high. They've seen the cops clear the protesters' tent. The cops seem to be listening to them. They're filled with this we're winning adrenaline. They want to do something. So they start this march down the street towards this apartment. Something like 30-odd people marching with their phones locked, yelling someone's name. Chandler! Chandler! Chandler! They open the door to this guy's apartment. It just opens, which is shocking to see and feels a little scary. Like, is someone going to get dragged out and beat up in some soccer hooligany way?

33:04Chandler! Is anybody home? Chandler! Chandler! I find myself next to Chad Caton, the guy in a bulletproof vest who was yelling about stolen valor before. We're just a few feet back from the apartment door. He's streaming as we're talking, which is always how it is. What's going on here? So Chandler has been operating the Antifa out of here. They've been running this neighborhood, and these patriots have had enough. They're taking back their streets, and this has been Chandler's. This is where they have attacked patriots and ran in here. This is a safe house, and this is where Antifa hangs out here in Rose City.

33:49A lot of this stuff turns out not to be actual fact, but more like Chad's interpretation of things, which others would strongly disagree with. But he is speaking the way most streamers and influencers would about Chandler's apartment. That is Antifa headquarters. Another streamer, Nick Shirley, runs up to Chad. Chad catches him and his viewers up with the not exactly true things that he told me.

34:30I'll just clarify, this is not a storefront. It's not the headquarters of Rose City Antifa. Chandler isn't a trust fund baby, and there don't seem to be any furry parties here, actually. But anyway. So this is the spot where Antifa, what, their home base down here, basically. Yeah, this is where they hide. This is the safe house, known as a safe house. Are you a fascist? Are you a fascist? At this point, Nick takes over from Chad, narrating for his live stream. He knows Chandler. A lot of the people watching his stream know Chandler. Any regulars who tune into the Portland scene down here know who he is.

35:09He's honestly seems like a very normal person when you talk to him and have conversations. But he has been the most well-known person for being the head of Antifa here in this part of Portland, Oregon. So what are people doing outside his house right now? Yeah, well, Antifa's kind of been defeated today as they took down his encampment. So I think he'll want to see what Chandler had to say and see who's going to do anything about it. Chandler pokes his head out the door. He looks like a sleepy, tousled, blonde college kid who just rolled out of bed. He seems completely unfazed by the mass of shouting people and phones just outside his house.

35:47A few of his friends, the protester in the fuzzy skeleton suit, another in a keffiyeh and goggles, a couple in all black, are hovering around him. Chandler stands in the middle of the open door and starts addressing the group of chanting, angry, excited, victorious people. It is entirely to the advantage of the powerful to have us, the working class, blame the powerless. Does that make sense? It is also very surprising to me to hear this Orson Welles-type voice come out of this young person's mouth. It is entirely to the advantage of the ruling class to convince you to blame the powerless, to blame the immigrants.

36:26to blame the left, to blame the right, to blame the rural farmers, to blame the liberals in the city, to blame the conservatives, right? He's ringed by streamers and phones, some of whom are just filming without comment, but a lot of whom are yelling at each other and teasing him. Because of the way Chandler talks, the whole thing feels just of another era, as though he's on a literal soapbox and people in bowler hats are on a cobblestone street booing and throwing tomatoes at him. But it's just phones bobbing everywhere and people narrating and arguing while he's talking. So when your SNAP benefits run out soon, when you go hungry, remember, it is the powerful.

37:11It is not the poor. It is the Democrats. It is the Republicans. It is the ruling class. It is the rich. It is the people inside. What our economy does, does that make sense? They own our industry. They own our fucking housing. They own the hours of your fucking life. There is no left and right. There is only rich and poor. There is only powerful and powerless. You are among the powerless. We are among the powerless. USA! USA! USA! People are starting to get restless, like unsure what to do next since this Chandler catharsis seems to be getting old. Chandler is still harboring terrorists after trying to gozzle our knobs all night last night.

38:03Eventually, people do start wandering away from Chandler's house. Carlin is giddy. Is it fun, though? Yeah, it's a ton of fun. Aren't you having fun? Wasn't that fun?

38:17Fun is not the word, but like, you know, I'm looking for something to happen, and it was happening. Yeah, it's an adrenaline rush. All right, here you go. It's like, this doesn't happen every day, right? But it does seem like you guys are making it happen every day. Actually, it does happen every day. It seems like people are making it happen every day. Oh, yeah. I give my business card to the guy who's famous for dressing as a frog at these protests. He was acting as a bouncer. Can you just give this to him? The scene at Chandler's ends with a bunch of streamers taking group photos of themselves simultaneously with their phones.

38:52Good job, boys and girls. Girls, you are all good kids. It's like 30 people. Then some of them bring their phones close and bid fond farewells to their viewers online. I'll see you guys tomorrow. I love you guys. We won tonight, baby. We won. We're doing it right now. So I'm going to help. I love you guys. I'll make a post when I get home.

39:27All the world's a stage and all the men and women merely players. You can't help feeling like this is so performative and absurd, that even the menacing moments are just part of a drama they invented to keep whoever's watching on social media entertained. It's cartoonish. It's over the top. And the search for red Antifa on this block can mean a random ice protester in a frog costume. It could mean that person who hit a right-wing influencer with a flagpole and then ran away. But here's what else the word Antifa now means in America, partly because of the story the streamers are telling about Portland.

40:09There's a great smooshing that's happening now. Protest means Antifa, Antifa means violence, and Antifa is rampant, organized, networked, well-funded, and belongs in the sizzle reel with the much more famous foreign terrorist groups that Americans all know. Remember DHS head Kristi Noem at the White House roundtable with the streamers. This network of Antifa is just as sophisticated as MS-13, as TDA, as ISIS, as Hezbollah, as Hamas, as all of them. So let's go inside the Antifa safehouse, see for ourselves, and talk to the head of Antifa, so-called. After the break, the frog guy gets us in.

41:00Zoe Chase. Coming up, Chandler's apartment. Could you be any more excited? That's in a minute. Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues. Support for This American Life comes from Squarespace, the all-in-one platform for creating a fully custom on-brand website. Choose from a wide range of professionally designed, award-winning templates with options for every user category. Showcase your offerings with a website designed to grow your business and manage payments seamlessly with branded invoices and online payments. Visit squarespace.com slash American to get 10 % off your first purchase of a website or domain.

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42:46Own the dream. This is American Life from Ira Glass. Today's show, the making of. We're taking a look behind the scenes at the people. We're creating a story about Portland that's fueling a national crackdown by the FBI, the Justice Department, Treasury, the IRS, DHS. We've arrived at Act 2 of our program, Act 2, inside the safe house. Okay, so where we left off, our producers Zoe Chase and Suzanne Gabber were trying to actually meet the so-called leader of Antifa. We pick up our story a couple nights later outside his door. Oh, we're here. The Antifa safe house.

43:31We're welcomed in, and the first thing we see is this sign that's posted right in front of the door. Three cameras and the Second Amendment. That's a lie. Please, so what does it mean? It's supposed to imply that there are three cameras and also that I have a gun, but I have neither of those things. There are no cameras in here, and I don't have a gun. So why did you put it up? To dissuade people from walking in and, you know, doing weird dumb stuff. Just a prop, no real guns, like so much else around here. So Chandler's apartment, it both looks like a safe house for a socialist and a dude living alone in his 20s.

44:14Two chairs, one desk, kitchenette, he offered us tea and measuring cups. Two bookshelves, science fiction, Dune, Hitchhiker's Guide, Fahrenheit 451, Orwell, Vonnegut. But also the complete works of Rosa Luxemburg, The Rise and Fall of Swedish Social Democracy, psychology books. Chandler said he'd been planning to do cognitive behavioral science before he dropped out of college. My name is Chandler Patey. I'm a carpenter. And I guess I have an apartment that is right next to ICE. And I am an activist and protester. and I can't call myself an organizer for this protest, but I do usually organize outside of this event because there's no organization on this one.

45:05Okay, so are you the leader of Antifa? Unfortunately not, or rather fortunately not, because first of all, obviously, I mean, you know, that doesn't make any sense. Antifa is not an organization. There are organizations that identify themselves as anti-fascist, right? But there are organizations that identify themselves as socialist or conservative, and they aren't the entirety of that thing. So it just doesn't make any sense to say that you are the leader of conservatism or that you are the leader of socialism, right? Because it's an ideology. You can't be the leader of an ideology. That doesn't make sense.

45:44I think it's important to be as clear as I can about this question, what is Antifa? There are organizations with the word Antifa in their name. Steel City Anti-Fascist League. Atlanta Anti-Fascists. One is famously from Portland, Rose City Antifa. It has a website. It has a flag. But the idea that all these different Antifa groups, or anarchist groups, are connected with a funding stream and leadership, there's no public evidence that's true. That was the conclusion of the FBI during the first Trump administration. Trump's former FBI director famously said there are violent anarchist extremists who identify as Antifa in this country.

46:28But he said it was an ideology, not an organization, that the FBI could target. Self-radicalized lone actors, he called them. The current Trump administration, the second one, has obviously gone in a very different direction. So in this environment, you probably wouldn't want to be publicly identified as Antifa or the leader of Antifa right now. So why are people calling you the leader of Antifa? Because there's this idiot named Veli Ray who's a streamer. He's very dumb. And I tried really hard to be nice to him for a long time. But he is just like, he's just so malicious and stupid. So he just like makes stuff up to be sensational, you know.

47:12and he'll just like try and over-dramatize the things that happened and sometimes that would include vilifying us. I asked Veli about this and he said he's been filming Chandler for six and a half months and he stands by his claim about him 100%. I'd say Veli Ray is like Chandler's Moriarty, his Lex Luthor, his Joker. Except Chandler has so many nemeses, it's sort of hard to pick. Anyway, here's Veli Ray's stream from a few weeks ago. I'm following Chandler.

47:43I'm sorry. Chandler, I love you. Chandler! Chandler, don't go! Chandler! Someone in Veli Ray's chat posted, you're like Brando in Streetcar Named Desire right now. Chandler! Chandler, you just walked in a full circle. That's because I was trying to walk away from you, Veli Ray. You just walked in a full circle. Initially, when Veli Ray came around, Chandler would do the thing that he does. He talked to him. speechifying about political corruption and capitalism, unbidden. And Chandler says at some point, Belly just started calling him the leader of Antifa. He started it, and then other people started repeating it because it got them clicks, right?

48:26And then as that kept happening, and then they found out that I live right here in the so-called Antifa safehouse, And then they came up with all sorts of weird fan fiction stories that got more clicks if you just say leader of Antifa in them. So, like, it didn't matter that it was me. They just wanted that word. You were a main character. You were a main character in the story of the protests. That's true. It is easier to, like, give a face to something to get more clicks, right? Yeah. This is going to sound facetious, but it's not. Was there anything actually flattering about that? A little bit.

49:08It was like a joke that my friends and I, like we all thought it was hilarious at first, and then we realized that, oh, that's actually not funny anymore. And so now I actually get mad at my friends or other protesters in general if they even joke about it anymore because it's like, stop saying that. That's really, really annoying. It makes me look super conceited if that joke continues, right? The other reason to get mad at this joke, of course, is that it seems it'd be dangerous to be called the leader of Antifa by people who have a direct line to the White House and the director of the FBI.

49:41I'm surprised the FBI hasn't been here already. Or have they? I mean, they're at ICE sometimes. I mean, there are people who claim to be FBI at ICE sometimes. And I've been detained while the FBI was there. And then they talked to me and asked me, like, so how are you organized? and like, who's your leader? Is someone paying you? Which is all hilarious shit for the FBI to be asking. Like, are you that? Are you incompetent? Are you stupid? Are you pretending to be stupid? Or do you think that I'm stupid? Like, which is it? Like they're trying to get you to admit to being the leader of Antifa? No, I mean, they asked, for a while they would ask everybody those, basically those same questions, right?

50:18It was just really funny because it's like, obviously, you know, we're not being paid. What are you talking about? It's like, can't you just like look at all of our private information? and then two alleged FBI agents gave me a brief interview where I didn't really answer any of their questions and just asked them how they feel about capitalism and corporate oligarchy and things and just disregarded everything they said. It was pretty funny. You're playing into what they think is Antifa, you know, when you go in there to an ICE facility and you're talking to DHS and you're talking about how we need to get rid of rich people.

50:52I say get rid of is not accurate, though. right? Because I'm a democratic socialist. I like democracy, right? What we need isn't to just like go to the rich people with a small group of violent Antifa rebels and then like kill them. That's dumb. That won't result in lasting change. What we need is to convince everyone, right? This next piece of economic analysis from Chandler is going to play differently to you once they tell you what his father did for a living. So just listen a little closer than you maybe were going to, okay? Rich people hate us. They will do everything that they can to consolidate power, right?

51:27They will destroy the United States economy and therefore the global economy so that they can drive everybody out of business and then buy up fucking all of the shit that people need to sell for the lowest possible price and just keep consolidating power over and over and over. Now, Chandler was a kid during the financial crisis of 2008, and he saw a very particular side of it in his own house. So my family was started off being kind of wealthy up until. So my dad worked at AIG Merrill Lynch. That oh is the sound of someone thinking, oh, your dad was in the business of mortgage backed securities that crashed the economy 17 years ago when you were at a young and impressionable adolescent age.

52:13And now you're a committed socialist oh so and then was like a higher up like a marketing director or some shit like that and um so we had like a pretty big house that like they built and like designed themselves because my grandpa is a structural engineer my grandma is in like a designer or like an interior designer or something my mom also has a degree in interior design or something and um so they Like, pretty wealthy, not, like, super rich, but, like, pretty wealthy. But I don't know if you know, but in AIG, Merrill Lynch was one of the parties mainly responsible for the 2008 financial crisis.

52:51So when that happened, my dad lost everything and then went crazy and became a crippling alcoholic. And then I just, like, didn't really see him very much ever again, which was fine because I never really saw him very much to begin with. And he was kind of weird. I'm sorry. Oh, it's fine. Just to say, Chandler denies his economic analysis comes from his personal experience. He says it comes from observations about history. Fair enough, nonetheless. Chandler does not like to talk about his family much. He says he doesn't really keep in touch with them. He grew up Mormon, just outside Portland. His dad died earlier this year.

53:28He has found a family of sorts here at the ICE facility. Sorry if that's corny to say. While we were there for a few hours, people stopped by and changed their clothes, used the bathroom. Someone gave him$10 for the water bill. A big wagon of medical supplies was sitting in the middle of the furniture-less living room. People had dragged it here after the camp was taken down by the cops. Some helped themselves to beef soup Chandler had on the stove. Not the vegan, of course, who called it flesh soup. Chandler found a partner, a romantic partner down here at the protest. His first significant romantic partner ever, he says.

54:07They came by for a second. In any case, Chandler has a sign up on his bedroom door that says, don't go in my room, that's fucking weird. Implying that enough people came by and tried to go in his room. They had to put a sign up. Also, Chandler is autistic. He calls himself very, very autistic. And something that he attributes to his autism is his ability to talk and talk and talk very calmly to whomever's talking to him, however they're talking to him. Even if, in my opinion, it very much makes him look like the leader of Antifa. Like our night with the streamers when he gave that press conference of sorts standing in his doorway.

54:49I mean, you coming out was this incredible catharsis. And they were talking to us like this was like spiking the football. It was a victory lap. Like the camp was down and now they were teasing, bullying, yelling at the head of Antifa at the Antifa safe house, wildly outnumbering him and making fun of him and his friends. And why would you give them that content? The content that I'm giving them is good for me. Why? Because no matter how many people I failed to convince, it is almost guaranteed that there is at least some people in their audience who responded positively to what I said. How do you figure?

55:37Because I have seen it. I go to their comment sections. I look at their comment sections, especially on Vali Ray's videos. There were so many of his fucking viewers that actually were on my side. So, like, you really think that the commenters on the live streams are turning into Democratic socialists, some of them? No, no, no. That would be crazy. I would love that. But no, I can only convince them on one point at a time, right? Chandler isn't always so above it all. He admits he takes the bait sometimes and gets aggressive, physically aggressive, which, of course, gives the streamers exactly what they're looking for, which is footage of the violent Antifa.

56:19He pulled up a video of a fight he definitely participated in with that provocateur guy, Ryan, we talked about earlier, and someone else called Right Side Rebel, who has long, swishy blonde hair. And then I get pulled off of Right Side Rebel. Everybody pulls me off of Right Side Rebel. And then I restrain Right Side Rebel again. And then it fizzles out after that, right? and like don't you think i mean this is exactly what people are out there to stream this is what they want to see there was a six more like i don't know how many more fights that night but uh but yeah afterwards i went and i apologized to right side rebel and you know we like smoothed it over i was holding you back i apologize if it seemed like sorry for knocking your phone actually I apologize.

57:06It was a very heated moment. You guys just united the country. Oh my God. So there was no reason for us to stay mad at each other. And then we like kind of, we were very friendly with each other and like had another interview with Right Side Rebel afterwards, just like, and we're like hugging and stuff, you know, showing that we're our friends now. Are you friends with Right Side Rebel? Friends is a strong word, but you know, I was like friendly right just again so this clip is so easily could be on fox and maybe has been on fox and um is just you know it's like exactly exactly what the administration wants to see in order to carry out their policies i absolutely regret this a lot i was just so angry at ryan so small and intimate, really, what's happening here.

57:57Yeah. Yeah. We know all of these people, or most of them. So it's like it's so small, it is really something that it travels up all the way to the White House. Right. The point is these people know each other. They're in the same cast, they perform the same play, night after night, on the same small set. They're like the dancers in West Side Story, coming out, dancing together on a city block, than going home to their respective neighborhoods until the next night, when they're dancing, fighting, in front of an audience again. These conflicts, these pint-sized scraps on a street corner, are not the sort of thing that in the past our government has sent the most powerful military in the history of the world to resolve.

58:45They're not the sort of fights that have led to anyone being labeled a domestic terror group and top national security priority. Maybe there is evidence out there that Antifa deserves that sort of treatment. But it's not in Portland. Though I love the smell of napalm in the morning, there's no war here.

59:12Zoe Chase is a producer on our show. Suzanne Gabber helped her report this story. In the weeks since they were in Portland in October, where things have actually quieted down in front of the ICE facility. Fewer people out on the street. Some of the streamers have moved on to other cities and other issues. We'll be singing when we're winning. We'll be singing. I get no doubt, but I get up again. Cause the hell is gonna keep me down. I get no doubt, but I get up again. Cause the hell is gonna keep me down. I get no doubt, but I get up again Yeah, they haven't gone to keep me down I get no doubt, but I get up again Yeah, they haven't gone to keep me down Well, our program was produced today by Nadia Raymond and Suzanne Gabber.

1:00:01It was edited by Laura Starcheski, Nancy Updike, and me. The people who put our show together include Fia Benin, Michael Kamaday, Ruthie Petito, Catherine Raimondo, Stone Nelson, Ryan Rummery, Ike Sreece-Kandaraja, Frances Swanson, Christopher Svitala, Marisa Robertson-Texter, and Julie Whittaker. Our managing editor is Saurabh Dharaman Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum Our executive editor is Emmanuel Berry Special thanks today to Nick Padani, Conrad Wilson, Troy Brinelson, Lillian Manjo-Hughes, Faisa Patel, and Phil Richard at KCOW I've said this before and I'm saying it again right now If you sign up as a This American Life partner, you'll help us continue making the show Plus, you get bonus episodes The one that we just sent out a couple weeks ago and the one that we are about to send out I am so proud of These are such good episodes.

1:00:46You also get to listen ad-free, and you get an archive of greatest hits episodes conveniently right in your podcast feed. Join at thisamericanlife.org slash lifepartners. The link is also in the show notes. Thanks this week to life partner Mike Seton. This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the public radio exchange. Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Ms. Tori Malatia. hanging around with family for the holidays, he's been reading children's books to his nephews and nieces, and he realized something. Reading Curious George. The guy with the yellow hat right there is Antifa.

1:01:22I'm out of glass. Back next week with more stories of This American Life.

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