879: A Christian and a Muslim Walk Into a Bar

28:40And out of the blue, Sharif called him to invite him to a stand-up workshop he was hosting. At the same day, man, at the same day, 2 p.m., I signed that paper. 4 p.m., Sharif called me. At the same day. I remember when I called, he said, I cannot come at this time. This is the Sheikh. The Sheikh is calling Maliki now.

29:06Maliki answers the phone. Sharif paces the room, smoking and listening carefully. The call lasts about 15 minutes. Thank you, Lord. Thank you. Thank you.

29:45The Sheikh said in the call was that he didn't know who cancelled the show, but he understood why someone would cancel it. He'd actually seen their set in Mohade a few months back, and he thought some of the content was inappropriate, and certainly it would be for Hammer, but not because of anything to do with LGBTQ material. So what were the kind of things he was saying to you? Man, this is insane. He told me that you can't say your material in Hama because it's offensive to the family values. Because we are talking about our parents. So he felt that, oh, they are breaking the bonds between the families.

30:28They are affecting the people that watch this kind of shows. We are a threat. We are a threat to the family. you know we are a threat to the family value this is this is much more insane than the lgbtq support thing man this is this is really new man this is really new all of us have jokes on our parents man everybody this is insane it's my dad man it's my dad if i can't speak on my dad what should i speak? For what should I speak? This is my family. This is my culture. We are doing stand-up comedy for the sheikh, not for the people. You know, this is how things are now going. The first three months, we had freedom.

31:18What was that like? Amazing. It's like coming from dark to the light. Then we are slowly closing the window. Now, slowly closing the door, slowly closing the curtains. This is bad. This is bad. It's better if I never had it. Yes. Wow. You know? Wow. Oh shit, here we go again, you know? Oh shit, here we go, another Assad regime. On the call, Maliki told the Sheikh they wanted to perform in Hamah to show that Hamah isn't just some strict and conservative city where nothing happens. The Sheikh said he'd look into it and get back to them with a final answer soon. So he's going to call back in a few hours with this decision?

31:58I think he will call the brothers. The brothers is Malik's sardonic way of referring to the Islamist officials now running things. They will call the brotherhood. He will call them and will have their advice. The next day we hit the road again.

32:19Piling into a bright yellow van with stickers lining the sides saying Styria in the font of Grand Theft Auto. Maliki is driving. Sharif sits behind him. There's so much equipment in the back that Maliki can't see out the rear window. It's about three hours to Salamir. Stop six on the tour, depending on checkpoints. What's the latest with the Sheikh? Sharif sent me a screenshot that he is pushing also in Muharde. To stop you? Yes. Muharde is the show tomorrow night. The Sheikh is now saying that show might be cancelled as well. I think a few hours I'm going to make some phone calls to understand what the hell is going on.

33:05And what's your strategy with the Sheikh? How are you going to convince him or control him or influence him? He's going to turn to Islam. You're going to convert to Islam? I hope I don't have to. Because if the Sheikh didn't kill me, my parents will. So I'm dead either here or there. I told them we will not stop. So if they want to stop, let them stop us. If it's going to go to jail, please take me to jail. I miss it.

33:46And with all this drama, do you want to perform in Hama? Yes. Our show is sold out in Hama. Man, there is 200 people right now. The only entertainment they have here is us so far, besides killing each other, you know? So we are a must, not a need. A few minutes later, still on the road to Salamir, Maliki gets a text. The Sheikh just texted me that it's not going to be a show in Hama. This is final decision. So what are you going to do? We're going to tell the people in Hama to come to our show in Amharde. Are you going to tell them why? Yes, of course. I'm going to tell them why. For them, this isn't over.

34:41They could let it go, but Maliki won't. They decide to test the limits another way, make it public, and see who's stronger right now, the government or the people. They want to use public opinion to force them to reinstate the show. The Styria comedians are all pretty young. They think in TikTok and Instagram. They believe a big enough online following will give them protection from government officials trying to silence them. They have hundreds of thousands of followers on Instagram. Syria's revolutionaries also use social media to rise to power But now that they run things, they fear it Fear posts that inflame sectarian tempers Fear looking weak At the same time, they don't want to look like the old regime Repressive and censoring in public So they pressure quietly, in private And the comedians answer loudly, online Maliki and Sharif go on the offensive They post that the Hammer show is cancelled and tell Hammer fans to come to Mahadeh instead.

35:44They'll add seats, they'll arrange buses. They're trying to turn the followers into force. It's a respectful post, not calling anyone out. But they figure their fans will understand why it was cancelled, get pissed off and put pressure on the government. But then, one of the other comedians, Abu Aziz, goes rogue on his personal Instagram account. So Abu Aziz, you know him. Aziz is much crazy. He's not diplomatic, you know? He's not diplomatic. Very, very stupid and very... Very Abaraziz, you know? On Instagram, Abaraziz goes off. We're just, we're Abaraziz. And the people who are with me are going to be the people's peace.

36:30The people's peace. He rants about the Secretariat for Political Affairs in Hama, says they accused the troop of LGBTQ content and of being a threat to family values. He blames them for cancelling Hamer. We're back to how we were before, he says, which sounds pretty mild, but he's comparing the new government to the old regime, which is dangerous.

36:56Abu Aziz has nearly 300 ,000 followers. Him posting online left some in the group nervous, but excited Maliki and Sharif. The comments start right away. Angry at the government. Word gets back. Someone from political affairs calls Abu Aziz. Political affairs also contacts the sheikh. The sheikh calls Maliki. Maliki doesn't pick up. So the sheikh follows with the text. I didn't answer. I will let him. We have cancelled the show. In an hour, answer him. In an hour, answer him. Now leave him in half an hour. Let things boil up, you know? So leave him now. I think an hour later or maybe in the evening they will tell us, do your show in Hamo.

37:47Some members of the group are worried by the strategy, wishing they had been consulted first. But almost as quickly as they stir up the online shitstorm, Sharif gets a text from the Hamo venue owner. No matter what, he won't let them use the venue. It's not worth it to him. He's scared of a visit from the authorities, a fine, a lost license, a knock at the door, or worse, an attack. Maliki and Sharif have officially lost the battle for Hama. They're still trying to direct people to come to the Mahadeh show instead, but now that might be cancelled as well. They play Salamia that night. Welcome, Salamia.

38:28It goes great, standing ovation.

38:36Then, after the show, a call from the Ministry of Media. This guy is furious about Abu Aziz's post and tries to stop the show they've just finished. Are you worried they're going to stop your other shows? No. Tomorrow it's going to be Mharde. No, they are not going to come to Mharde. Maybe they will do some phone calls and that's it. It's now our move. On the chessboard, it's now our move. We have the media. We have the people. They have weapons. So Abu Ziz is a very powerful chess piece. No, he's very tahash, we call it that. The one who, like a tank, you know, this is the first to come into the battle.

39:15And then people come like snipers and military. Everything is a war. In Syria, everything is a war. Even the art is a war. Maliki isn't worried about the show in Maharda. He tells me it's a Christian town, so the sheikh has no power there.

39:38Eamon Ogama. Coming up, Muharda, she wrote. The comedy show moves on to Muharda. That's in a minute. Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues. Support for This American Life and the following message come from Capella University. You know that feeling when there's a spark building inside you, that you were meant for more? That's your own drive pushing you towards what's next. Capella University gets that. With their FlexPath learning format, you can set the pace and earn your degree without putting life on pause. You've built experience and know what you're capable of. Now, this is your time to turn that momentum into more.

40:17The only real question is, what can't you do? Learn more at capella.edu. Support for This American Life comes from Squarespace, the all-in-one platform for creating a fully custom on-brand website. Choose from a wide range of professionally designed, award-winning templates with options for every user category. Showcase your offerings with a website designed to grow your business. And manage payments seamlessly with branded invoices and online payments. Visit squarespace.com slash American to get 10 % off your first purchase of a website or domain. Support for This American Life comes from Charles Schwab with their original podcast, Choiceology, hosted by Katie Milkman, an award-winning behavioral scientist and author of the bestselling book, How to Change.

41:04Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind people's decisions. Hear true stories from Nobel laureates, historians, authors, athletes, and more about why people do the things they do. Download the latest episode and subscribe at schwab.com slash podcast or wherever you listen. This is American Life, Myra Glass. Today's show, a Christian and a Muslim walk into a bar. We pick up with a reporter, Eamon Ogana, and the comedians of Styria on their tour of the country for Act Three, An Act of Calling. Is this thing on?

41:45It's morning, we're back in the van heading from Salamir to Moharde. A show they hope will still happen and where a busload of fans from Hama will join them. We pass a car with a rocket launcher on the roof.

42:02Monuments of Syria's bloody war still dot the roads. We see bombed out buildings and burnt out cars on the way. We have a system for checkpoints. Maliki flashes a big smile and I hide my recording equipment under a coat.

42:21Maliki is flying high this morning. We're leaving the more conservative Sunni Muslim areas and heading to a Christian town. Christians are a minority in Syria, about 10 % before the war. And Maliki is Christian. He's relaxed in shorts, grinning as he drives. This is Maharda? Yes. This is Maharda. Welcome to the Christian people! Fuck you, Sharif! I'm with you, yeah. I'm with you, yeah. I'm with you, yeah. I'm with you, yeah. I'm with you, yeah. Woo! Hallelujah! Oh, God! Now we are safe. Now we are safe from HDS and all the governments. This is a Christian country.

43:13We get into town, go into a cafe. Maliki, have you heard from anyone who's from Hama who's taking the bus tonight?

43:33something like this. I hope it's going to be good. This is where we drink a lot. This is the place. They are very, very, very generous. Very generous here. Because they are Christian. Everyone is happy, smiling. They order pizza. I go back to ice. I love this song. But an hour later, the mood changes. Maliki looks distressed. He has changed back into jeans as conservative Syrians frown upon men wearing shorts. We get back into the car with the venue owner for the show tonight. Okay, Maliki, tell me exactly what's happening. Oh, a lot. Happening a lot. Let me think about it first, then I will talk to you.

44:30The venue owner has gotten a call from the local government in Mahardik, asking him to come in for a meeting. We drive to the local municipal building. I walk with Maliki, but get stopped at the stairwell, while Maliki and the venue owner go into an office. A few minutes later, Maliki comes back and says I can come in.

44:54Please give it to the police outside. Give what? The recording? Yes, recording and the headset. Okay, sure. I can listen. And your back also. Okay. They take my bag, the recorder, everyone's phones. There are two government men inside the office. Beards, shaved moustaches, military outfits. They look straight out of central casting. But they're polite. One asks if we want coffee. Another then brings glass cups of Nescafe 3-in-1, a sugary instant coffee ubiquitous across the Middle East. My translator waits downstairs, so I don't follow everything, but one of the government guys says he recognizes me.

45:34I'd covered the Syrian war and we had been in the same towns in Idlib province. Maliki later jokes that ten years ago they may have kidnapped me. It's a different country to report in now. I watch the room. The older one sits behind a desk, does most of the talking. Eventually, another brings in a piece of paper and beckons the venue owner to come to him. The owner is nervous and doesn't hesitate to sign it. Maliki explained to me what was going on afterwards. They were very angry. So they told us that we can't do our show in Maharde because there is no permission from Hama Political Affairs. So now we are making some phone calls to have that permission.

46:22I hope to have it. Maliki had miscalculated. He figured that because Mahadeh is a Christian town, the Sheikh and the local Hama government wouldn't have reach here. But instead, the local politicians in Mahadeh are telling them if they want to do tonight's show in Mahadeh, they need to get permission from the Sheikh and the other bureaucrats in Hama, the ones they started a battle with yesterday, the ones now threatening a libel case. What was it they made the owner sign? — Obligation. — Saying he promises? — Saying that he promises that he won't let us do the show without a written permission from their office.

47:05— Has this ever happened before to you? — No. No. — When you arrived in Maharde, you were like, we're free now, no one can stop us. So how do you feel now? — Shit. Shit. Shit. They have more power than I thought here. This is dangerous. Yesterday, they were very upset with us doing the show in Salami. So now they will prevent us from doing the show here. I don't know what things will happen in the next few hours. Their only path tonight is persistence. If they can get permission from the Hama officials Abu Aziz just insulted, they can still go on in Moharde. It's 3.15pm. The show is at 7. It's sold out.

47:54Buses of vans are supposed to come from Hammer. We get in the car, me, Maliki and the venue owner and head towards Hammer to try to talk to the politicians and see if there's any way to save tonight's show in Moharde. Ten minutes out, the venue owner answers his phone. I can't tell what the call is about but he goes quiet then asks us to turn back. We head back to Mohadeh, to the same cafe. Malachi smokes a cigarette on the street outside, defeated. Why did we turn back from Hamad? Because they started to hurt him now. They started to hurt him. I'm sorry, man, I have to stop this because I'm very tired now.

48:39Malachi later told me that the venue owner got a call from his dad. The government is also putting pressure on him. real enough pressure that he got scared and didn't want to cause more trouble by heading to Hama. To make matters worse, on the way back, Maliki also gets a call. First they've been told they needed permission from the political affairs office in Hama to run the Mahadeh show. Now the bar moves even farther away from them. Officials are now saying they need free permissions from political affairs and also from the ministries of tourism and culture. And the guy running the local office of the ministry of culture is the sheikh.

49:15All because of what? What have you guys said or done? This is because of jokes. This is because of jokes. I can't think of a place shitter than here. I hate this country, I swear to God. I hate it from the bottom of my heart. This is a message that you don't play with us. They think you're troublemakers. Yes, yes, for them. This is insane. This is insane. What's up, Captain? I'm tired now. Mentally and physically tired. I'm using all my connections. And when I do, when I put nine on the table, they put 10. I put 10, a guy, they put a queen. I put a king, they put an ace. So it's always, fuck. We're going to wait one more hour and then we will know what to do.

50:18We need an hour, I think.

50:23Man, I don't know what to do. I don't want to be a fight. I want to be in agreement. Well, you want to be a comedian and you can't do that. This is the last thing I think of right now, actually. I swear to God, this is the last thing I think of. Maliki hasn't eaten since yesterday. He's running on coffee and cigarettes. He's getting impatient with my questions. He and the other comedian start talking in Arabic around a crowded table. The conversation is heated.

51:00I find Sharif outside the cafe, emotional. Okay, man, I can see you have tears in your eyes. You're upset. Well, yeah, bro. I feel sad, you know. Why? I'm sad because the people who got influence now, they're using Bashar's ways to... and Bashar's law to stop us from making people have some fun. Yeah, how is freedom of expression working out for you in Syria now? It's not working. like at all like it's not working and and the things are working as not freedom are who have the bigger balls how are the other guys taking the news some of them are scared some of them has to imagine he's scared he's a doctor in the university he's scared that might reach him in a way that they will let him go from the university other want to make money other want to make fame other want to make the project continue.

52:10It's their own right to feel and do whatever they want. But for me, I push by myself. Yeah. So, let's see. But soon after this conversation, they call it. Maliki can't secure the free permissions in time, so they're forced to cancel just three hours before showtime. They post on Styria's Instagram that the show's off due to unforeseen circumstances. and tell people they'll refund tickets. Now they're worried the government is also going to cancel their show in Aleppo, which is two days away. I find them hours later in Sharif's hotel room. One of the other comedians is giving Sharif a massage. So I see you guys are promoting LGBTQ.

52:57That night, instead of doing their show, they get drunk and dance until three in the morning.

53:10The next day the politicians in Hamer want Abu Aziz to bend the knee, apologize. Maliki says he won't make Abu Aziz do that alone. We get in a car to Hamer to meet Abu Aziz, who's already driven up from Damascus. Maliki is anxious and frustrated. I didn't sleep well actually. So what are you hoping? You're going to see these guys and what? To end this madness, man. to end this madness. I think we've been in this case three days now. Yeah. The fuck is this man? Three days. Three days for a fucking comedy show. They are wrong. Okay? They are the political fair. They are wrong. But, uh... We didn't play well.

54:02When we play, We give them our neck. We get to the political affairs office and inside a large, drab, concrete government building. At the door, the security guard says they're expecting us and Maliki tightens. Up at him's stairwell to a large office, three suited officials sit in a row like judges facing out. One of them is the infamous sheikh. We're shown to chairs by their side. Abu Aziz is already there. Maliki tells me to put my recorder outside again. Please, we're going to take this outside, then we're going to talk. All right. The meeting begins. It's all in Arabic, but my translator is there and takes notes.

54:47The government officials are stern and condescending. Their age and authority looms over Abu Aziz and Maliki. They have the room. The men from political affairs tell the comedians they were insulted by Abu Aziz's post, that it's unacceptable to compare them to the Assad regime. They ask Abu Aziz how many people saw his post. He says 47 ,000 and apologises, says what he did was wrong. The officials say that in addition to the post being inappropriate, it wasn't true. They never cancelled the show. Maliki pushes back. That's what his fixer was told when he had gone to pay the fees for the show. Whatever the truth of that, the three officials do have a lot to say about the content of the shows One of them says that he went to one of their shows a few months back That he sat in the front row with his son He says, I regretted bringing him, but what calmed me was that he fell asleep during the show From the start, all your jokes were about religion, sex and sensitive topics that threaten civil peace They remind the comedians that under Assad they could joke about anything but politics.

56:01Now they can joke as much as they want about politics or the government, but they can't joke about topics that could disturb the civil peace. They point to a little dance Abu Aziz does at the start of his set. They say it's sexual. They say society's morals have deteriorated. Abu Aziz apologises a second time. He tries to break the tension with a joke. He says, There are three things I love, Ahmad al-Shara, Bashar al-Assad and sport, but the truth is I only like two of them. You can choose whichever you like. It's a joke because Abu Aziz is overweight, not a big athlete, and it's impossible to both love Shara and Assad.

56:44Silence. No smiles, no laughs. It's awkward. The message is clear. This is not a joke. The meeting wraps up after an hour. Afterwards, I ask Abu Aziz about it.

57:22government have at least sat with me, discussed the issue with me, and they let me leave. It says a lot about where Syria is now. Not the old terror, not real freedom either. The state will absolve you if you apologize, rather than make you disappear into the prison system. You can post, you can film, you can even argue in a room like that. But you have to bow down to authority, which after 50 years of dictatorship, Syrians know how to do. It seems to me like in Syria today, everyone has tasted freedom for the first time, and they're not sure what to do with it. Even the government don't even know what to do with freedom.

58:06Yes, of course. You have said it a lot. We are learning and they are learning.

58:18I spoke to the Sheikh afterwards. He reiterated that he didn't cancel the show. He said his remit is cultural centres only, and the comedians are banned from the cultural centres in Hamer. But anything in a private venue, he said, is outside his authority. He never told anyone to stop anything. He is lying, man. I told Maliki about the conversation. He said it was a misunderstanding. No, that's what they say after when you feel the heat. You know, I'm sorry, it's a misunderstanding. Fuck you, I'm fucking your misunderstanding. Understand well, because you are in a position, you have to understand well.

58:58Any misunderstanding can lead to blood. You have to be aware of what kind of business you do. I also learned the sheikh is not actually a sheikh. Do you call all the politicians sheikh? Not all, only the Muslim one. We tried to figure out who cancelled the show in Hama and didn't get anywhere either.

59:29The next two shows are in Aleppo. And even though Maliki was worried about Aleppo from the start, the shows there are not cancelled. They sell out both shows, a thousand tickets in total.

59:44Maliki does the joke about his dad and one about being a Christian in a mosque. Sharif tells the bra joke.

1:00:00See, Maliki was right. They kill in Arabic.

1:00:10Eamon Ogana is a reporter in Damascus. We only said goodbye With words I died a hundred times You go back to her And I go back to her I go back to her Well, I'm going to go This is produced today by Dana Chivas and edited by Fia Benin and David Kestenbaum with fact-checking by Hanny Hawassoli The people who put together today's show include Michael Comedé, Suzanne Gabber, Tobin Lowe, Catherine Raimondo, Stone Nelson, Ruthie Petito, Nadia Raymond, Ryan Rumery, Francis Swanson, Christopher Sotala, Julie Whitaker, and Diane Wu. Our managing editor, Sara Abdurahman. Our executive editor, Ms. Emanuel Berry.

1:00:59Harif Ali Kurz worked with Amin in Syria. Jutaha did translations. Our website, thisamericanlife.org. This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the public radio exchange. Thanks as always to our program's co-founder, Mr. Tori Malatia. You know, when people walk up to him on the street before they barely get a word out, he lets them know... I'm not George Clooney yet. I'm Ira Glass. Back next week with more stories of this American life.

1:01:41This message comes from Angie. Tackling a home project, Angie can connect you with pros who do such a good job you might ask them to be your kid's godfather. Don't do that. Just trust them to get the job done. Find a pro for your projects at Angie.com. That's A-N-G-I dot com.