New Lore Drop

10:19Aviva DeKornfeld:Pizza's everybody goes through the thing when they grow up where they learn to see their parents not just as the boring human furniture around the house of their childhood and for most of us the new information that we absorb about our parents happens over years the new Lord Drop version that Pete got was just kind of the accelerated program

10:38Ira Glass:yeah, I got it all in one drive. Today on our show, we have other human beings

10:45Aviva DeKornfeld:who are not video game characters and they're not fictional people on long-running television series who get hit with all new information about their own lives. Backstories that rewrite everything. New Lord drops in real life. From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life. Today on the show, I will still be playing the part that I always play here. And I have not learned that I am a princess from Genovia and my grandmother is actually Julie Andrews. I am still Ira Glass. Stay with us.

11:28Jake Cornell:This message comes from AT &T with your summer essential, the iPhone 17 Pro. Its center stage front camera auto-adjusts the frame to fit everyone into group selfies. Right now at AT &T, ask how you can get iPhone 17 Pro on them with eligible trade-in any condition. Requires trade-in of iPhone 15 Plus or higher, excluding iPhone 16E and 17E. Requires eligible plan.

11:54Ben Austen:Terms and restrictions apply. Subject to change. Visit att.com slash iPhone for details.

12:01Aviva DeKornfeld:This is American Life, Act One. Save the drama for your grandmama. Sometimes a lord drop happens when you least expect it. Look at this next story. Abita Kornfeld explains.

12:15Jake Cornell:When I first met Jake, it was obvious. This is a guy who is hardwired to try and connect with people. He's like this friendly bulldozer, Kool-Aid manning his way into emotional intimacy. And Jake's always been this way. In part, perhaps, because he grew up surrounded by people. He comes from this big Irish Catholic family in Rhode Island, And he had a sort of sitcom upbringing. His aunts and uncles and cousins all lived close by. One grandma lived literally next door. The other set of grandparents lived a 15-minute walk from his house. And Jake saw them every day. It was the best. And then, when he was seven years old, his family moved to Vermont, away from his extended family.

12:59Jake Cornell:And he hated it, really missed them. And this missing only intensified when his grandma back in Rhode Island was diagnosed with breast cancer. To little Jake, it was obvious what to do. I just started calling her all the time. And I think because I just wanted to keep talking to her because I was so afraid she was going to die. Oh my God, it's so sweet. I know. It's funny to think back on because it was so purely intentioned. But it's also so, the motives of it are so transparent that it must have just been like a reminder to my grandmother every day. like this kid thinks you're going to die because you might.

13:31Jake Cornell:You know what I mean? She's like, okay, relax. No, she was like, I was trying to like one day of fucking peace. And I'm like, hi, grandma, can I talk to you again before you die?

13:44Jake Cornell:I kind of have this memory of the calls kind of running out of steam a little bit because I was calling every single day and I was like eight or nine. So it's like, what do you have to talk about? You know? And so I think I had introduced her to Harry Potter just as I had started reading it. And I think we were then like, we would read them at the same time and we would read a chapter and I talk on the phone the next day. We would discuss the chapter, sort of like book club with my grandma. I remember my mom always jokes like one of the most upset times she ever saw me was I caught that my grandma had read ahead.

14:15Jake Cornell:Because she accidentally said something on one of the calls that hadn't happened yet. And I was like, what are you talking about? And she was like, well, it doesn't it? And I was like, you read ahead. And she had read the whole book because she couldn't put it down because she loved it. Right. But I was like, never do that again. Like, swear to me, that you'll know. Because I loved that I had that experience with her. This Harry Potter book club evolved into talking about other books, books they were reading separately. The way it worked, they would each read their own book, and then they'd hop on the phone and summarize it for the other person, chapter by chapter.

14:45Jake Cornell:It was part of my, like, nightly ritual. I feel like it was, like, come home, do homework, maybe have dinner, then call Grandma. And recap the book. because I loved, I always loved like recapping my book to her. Like I loved having someone to tell this story to so that it was like, I love being able to retell it. Like I want to tell her this story in the way it made me feel. I want to make sure I hide this suspense. I want to like, if there was a surprise in the book, I want to make sure I tell her the story of the book in a way that keeps the surprise so that she's a surprise when I tell her as I was when I read it.

15:16Jake Cornell:And then I'd be like, okay, what about your books? And she would tell me. And I remember kind of clocking pretty early on that she definitely didn't have that same flair for like, Like, she just didn't, she would be like, oh, and then like, yeah, they are starting to fall in love. And I'd be like, well, how did they fall in love? Why did they like each other? I felt very connected to her through the books and through the storytelling. Because I think, you know, my grandma was not, she wasn't like particularly forthcoming about herself. She wasn't someone who like would come home and like drop her back and be like, God, I got to tell you about my day.

15:48Jake Cornell:Like, that was not her. And this was like the first time that I felt like I was having a conversation with an adult who was talking to me about stuff going on in their own life, even if it was just the book they were reading. Jake's grandma worked at Filene's in the shoe department. She was a real coupon hound, loved a sale. She was nice, but not exactly sweet in a grandmotherly kind of way. She was often way too honest. Like, if you said you weren't feeling good about yourself because your clothes didn't fit right, she would offer, well, you gained weight. She liked reading all kinds of books, but she especially loved thrillers.

16:24Jake Cornell:Jake remembers one of her books in particular, Smoke and Mirrors, about a librarian whose half-sister was murdered. The librarian tries to figure out who murdered her half-sister with the help of a guy who knew her. It was suspenseful. His grandma loved a mystery. The two kept this book club going for years. Jake would pace back and forth in the hall between the dining room and living room in his house in Vermont, phone tucked under his ear, while his grandma sat nestled in her favorite armchair back in Rhode Island. The calls were long, sometimes lasting hours. Jake says his summaries were, unsurprisingly, pretty exhaustive.

17:03Jake Cornell:He didn't want to leave a single detail out. until when he was 12 or so he stopped being completely honest with his grandma about what he was reading because he started feeling like there was something off about the books he liked he worried they were too girly the ones where i was like oh like these were the ones that really caused like a crisis for me there was this series of books called twitches which was which were about twin witches and they were like the covers were like those old school like early 2000s photo shoots where they would do like stock image photo shoots it wasn't like an illustration it was like a photo shoot of like two teenage girls like Olsen twin style totally exactly yeah it was like about these two girls who found out that they were adopted and that they were twins they're also witches when they meet they develop magical powers and I was like well I literally have to read these but like I don't want to tell my grandma that I'm reading a book about like two teenage girls that are like have magical powers and like boys and also I don't want to carry this book around at school and so I think that's when I started editing a little bit and like and why didn't you want your grandma to know you're reading those because I think I knew it was speaking to some I think I was also probably starting to realize like like because I also was I was a pretty effeminate child so like at this point I was already getting called gay so I think this was all kind of like interwoven.

18:25Jake Cornell:And so do you remember deciding, like intentionally deciding to start changing details? I remember in Twitch's, I think I changed their gender. I think I made them both boys. I think I changed their powers. I think I said that one could move things with their mind and that one was like strong. And the details you were changing it was to make it align with what you thought a straight boy would be reading? I was like, I'll change these details because they don't affect the plot. And I, so I was like, I'm not going to change the plot. I'm just going to change like the details around it to make it like a little bit more mask.

18:59Jake Cornell:Like it's going to be, instead of like being able to passively stop it through like clairvoyance and telepathy, it's like they use their like physical powers of telekinesis and strength. And do you think you were convincing? Do you think that she thought that you were straight at the time? No, I don't think that anyone ever thought I was straight. Really? No, I don't think so.

19:25Jake Cornell:It's really sweet and really sad to imagine you like putting on this disguise by changing the details for your grandma. It's like you're wearing a fake mustache, but it's actually askew and you have no idea. And everyone's like, that's not a real mustache. Yeah, 100%. And like as though like if I'd been sitting here talking to you for an hour and a half and then just suddenly put the mustache on and expected you to think it was real. Like you've been talking to me without a mustache this whole time. And I also think this kind of led to the end of the book club a little bit was like when I started to be like, I don't want to read these books and have to tell my grandma.

19:54Jake Cornell:You know what I mean? Like, also, she beat the cancer. Congratulations. So I was less scared about her dying. Oh, so you were like, okay, it's not an emergency. I think kind of. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It took Jake a few more years to formally come out to his family. He was 16. And he told me he thinks he remembers his grandma mentioning his coming out once and saying that she loved him. But it was such a non-issue that he can't even really remember specifics. Jake's sexuality, that is not the lore drop in this story. There was one, but it came years later when Jake was in his 30s. By then, his grandma had developed dementia and then got really sick.

20:35Jake Cornell:Jake made a point to visit her every month or two. And then one day... I was visiting my grandma and she was in home hospice and it was kind of sad. She was on the first floor in the living room. And then I went up to my mom's old bedroom. And my mom's bedroom, there's this like radiator that always was just like covered in my grandma's books. And I like remember being in, I went, I think I probably went up to the room to kind of like take a breather or something. And I remember like seeing the books on the windowsill and on the radiator. He saw titles he remembered from when he was a kid. The book she'd recapped for him.

21:14Jake Cornell:and I remember I picked up one of the books and thumbed through it and found a sex scene and I was like was she reading what they're romance novels like these were sexy books and so I like picked them up and I started like flipping through them and I just remember it being like graphic in the way that it like described genitals like it was like it wasn't just like and then we went to the bedroom it was like like you know what I mean it was like that And I was like, oh, oh, okay. I was like, are those all smut? Yes. Jake's grandma was an avid reader of smut. Jake sat there laughing out loud to himself as he started Googling his grandma's favorite authors.

21:57Jake Cornell:Jane Ann Krentz, who wrote the book Grand Passion, in which protagonist Max Fortune heads to a B &B in search of his hidden inheritance, only to find himself irresistibly compelled by the attractive innkeeper, Cleopatra. J.D. Robb. She wrote the book Naked and Death, where a woman somehow works through her past trauma by sleeping with a hot and mysterious Irish businessman. And another one from Jane Ann Krentz that Jake remembered his grandma recapping to him. Smoke and Mirrors, the one about the librarian traveling around trying to solve her half-sister's murder with the help of a guy she meets along the way.

22:34Jake Cornell:That was the way Jake remembered it, anyway. But now, reading the book. The whole book is just her wanting to have sex with this man. That's the entire book. The murder is almost never mentioned. They're just walking around this town trying to find out if the murder... The entire time, she's just like, this man is so hot. She literally had to make up so much plot. Like, this is so central to the plot. Like, I remember thinking, like, damn, grandma doesn't give that much of a shit about the narrative. And I'm like, no, grandma was making up a narrative because, like, half of the plot was about these people having sex.

23:03Jake Cornell:So you want me to read this passage? Yeah. Okay. In this part of the book, they just tried to break into a house to, like, look for clues. And, like, an unseen person, like, chased them out of a house. And they, like, had to run away. And now they've, like, they're back at his place. And they're, like, safe. Okay. Thomas shrugged out of his jacket and came to stand behind her. Their eyes met in the mirror. Unlike her, he looked terrific, she thought. Hard, tough, and totally in control. She had to fight an irresistible urge to turn and put her head into his chest. His hands closed over her shoulders.

23:39Jake Cornell:Take it easy. You're just feeling the aftershock of the adrenaline. It'll fade. I know. The weight of his hands was not having the calming, soothing effect he probably intended. She suddenly wanted to do a lot more than just put her head down on his shoulder. She looked at his mouth in the mirror and wondered what would it be like to kiss him. Wondered how his mouth would feel on other parts of her body. Let's stop there because we can't conjure an image on the radio.

24:16Jake Cornell:You guys were doing the same thing. We were doing the same thing. What went through your head when you realized that? It really tickled me. Because I remembered that feeling of being so afraid towards the end of the time when we were calling each other that I would out myself. or just feeling once I became like a sexual person myself, like a pubescent myself, those conversations about like those books being like, ah, like don't see me. Yeah. I think she probably felt a version of that the whole time. Or was just having to constantly think about like, okay, don't talk about when they had sex in the kitchen, but what happened in the plot line?

24:49Jake Cornell:Like, I don't know. It makes me feel closer to her that we were like doing this song and dance. I love the idea that you and your grandma were lying to one another three times a week in the name of bonding. Exactly. It's like lie almost feels like too harsh of a word. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. It's just like two people translating what's going on in their lives for the other person, you know? Right. It's a version of what we all do all the time. A hundred percent. You know, like when we talk to like our parents about like our relationship, you might not be like, well, I think I might break up with him because the sex is not great.

25:20Jake Cornell:Like you might, I'm just not feeling it. You know what I mean? We do these edits all the time. Yeah. Yeah. We were fighting and then we made up. Yeah. Exactly. Jake's grandma died this past June. She was 84. Jake and his grandma and their book club, it was never really about the books, obviously. The point was to spend time with one another, to feel close. And it worked. It worked so well that Jake still gets to spend time with her, even now, even in some very unexpected moments. I've been watching Heated Rivalry, which is like this HBO Max show that's based on a romance novel, but it's a gay romance novel.

26:01Jake Cornell:It's about hockey players. And I'm like loving it. It's like my favorite show right now. And I'm kind of like laughing to myself as I watch it because I'm like, I come from a line of people who enjoy this. I'm continuing my family tradition. Let's be clear to the listener. I'm not thinking about my grandma necessarily when I'm watching a lot of those scenes. But like when I think about it now, I'm like there is something kind of like nice about that, I guess. I found my version of it that I enjoy. There was a period of time in my life where I was terrified of my grandma knowing I was gay, and now I'm watching Gay Smell on HBO, and I'm like, the gene that makes me like this comes from her.

26:34Jake Cornell:Sometimes the new lore drop isn't some big revelation. Sometimes it's just a funny little detail. You get to enjoy it and carry on with your day.

26:55Aviva DeKornfeld:Aviva de Kornfeld is one of the producers of our show. Jake is a comedian. He told a version of this story on stage, which is where we first heard about it. His work and his tour dates are on Instagram, at Jake W. Cornell. Coming up, one more reason to hate Mark Zuckerberg. This one I bet you did not see coming. That's in a minute. From Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues. Support for This American Life and the following message come from Redfin. You're listening to a podcast, which means you are probably multitasking. Are you scrolling home listings on Redfin? Saving homes that you don't really expect to get.

27:37Aviva DeKornfeld:Redfin wants you to know that they are not just built for endless scrolling. They really are built to help you find and own a home. Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents. So when you find the one, you got a shot at getting it. Get started at redfin.com. Own the dream. Support for This American Life and the following message come from Capella University.

28:00Jake Cornell:You know that feeling when there's a spark building inside you, that you were meant for more? That's your own drive pushing you towards what's next. Capella University gets that. With their FlexPath learning format, you can set the pace and earn your degree without putting life fun pause. You've built experience and know what you're capable of. Now, this is your time to turn that momentum into more. The only real question is, what can't you do? Learn more at capella.edu.

28:27Aviva DeKornfeld:Support for this American life and the following message come from Easy Cater, the workplace food platform. Easy Cater helps organizations order food from favorite restaurants, meet dietary needs, and stay on budget. With employee meal programs, flexible payment options, and 24-7 customer support all on one platform. Learn more at easycater.com. This is American Life from Ira Glass. Today's show, new lore drop. Stories of people discovering information about their own lives that they did not know. Information that makes them see things very differently. Okay, so just a quick reminder as the show continues, if we get separated and you can't find me and somebody comes to get you, Let's just review.

29:11Aviva DeKornfeld:What's the code word? Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. That's right. Don't forget it. We've arrived at Act 2 of our program. Act 2. Bully pulpit. So reporter Ben Austin had a kind of word drop happen to him recently. And it was not the clarifying kind of word drop, where everything suddenly makes sense. The world seems clearer. It was kind of the opposite. Ben says his whole thing started over Facebook. Ben is one of those people who hates Facebook. he hates but also keeps looking at. Maybe he's not the only person who ever does that. Ben had this rule. He would accept friend requests, but he'd never make them.

29:50Aviva DeKornfeld:And then one day, he sees a post that his sixth grade teacher had died. This was a teacher he loved. And everybody loved. And all of his old classmates were sharing memories.

30:01Ben Austen:I was sitting there and I was like, man, these are my friends, you know, that I grew up with. And so I started friending them. I, like, broke my rule. And there was, like, this kid Chaka that I hung out with and this girl Alana and Malcolm Speller. I just started friending all of them. And then there was this one other kid. His name was Eddie. And I paused.

30:22Aviva DeKornfeld:Should he reach out to Eddie? He got into school with Eddie from, like, since they were first learning to walk. Initially, this Jewish day school on the south side of Chicago.

30:31Ben Austen:We both transferred to this public school in sixth grade, And I remember hearing that his mom told, like, the office lady at the Jewish day school who told my mom that the reason Eddie transferred schools followed him to the public school, i.e. Ben Austin, meaning me. I was the reason he transferred.

30:51Aviva DeKornfeld:You were the reason he transferred to public school, and then you turned out to go to the same public school.

30:56Ben Austen:Yeah. So I was like, oh, he probably doesn't want to hear from me. But on the other hand, decades have passed, right?

31:02Aviva DeKornfeld:They were adults now. They both had kids. This guy, Eddie, had actually become a rabbi. An adult Ben didn't want adult Eddie to somehow see that he'd friended everybody else and then not him and then be hurt by that. So he sends the friend request very quickly. He gets a message back.

31:21Ben Austen:And there seemed to be like a 2 ,000-word essay that he wrote me in response. Let me ask you to read a little bit of that. Okay. Before I broadcast to the world via my 2 ,100 Facebook friends that you and I are friends, I need to get something off my chest. This may sound petty, but when we were boys at Akiba Schechter, I felt insecure in your presence. From nursery school through fifth grade, I recall feeling verbally and at times physically threatened by you. I'm not going to go into specific incidents, and I don't think it matters. What matters is how I felt. I'm sad to say it, but when I teach my own children and students in my synagogue about bullying, the image in the deepest recesses of my mind is the memory of feeling threatened by you.

32:12Aviva DeKornfeld:And then he goes on in his message to you to say, you know, we were kids. I realized, you know, it wasn't your fault. You were a kid. And then he says, but even as we got older, I have still carried with me all those years the burden of that experience. and then let me ask you to read how he ends this message to you.

32:33Ben Austen:All right. I need to release myself from the burden that has plagued me for so long. I am sorry for throwing all this at you over an innocent friend request. I apologize for holding back all these years and not trying harder to bring about healing in our relationship sooner. If you are willing to acknowledge the hurt and the insecurity that I felt in your presence when we were boys more than 30 years ago, then I not only will forgive you, I will be happy to be your friend in all senses of the term. Best regards, Eddie.

33:08Aviva DeKornfeld:What did you think when you got that?

33:11Ben Austen:Boy, like, honestly, I was like, fuck Facebook. But I also thought... Wait, you're blaming Facebook for this? Yeah, I was like, why was I on that side? Like, why did I participate? It was like, I knew it. I knew it. I mean, to be honest, like, the biggest thing I felt was, like, I just, I couldn't think of something that I did to him. I don't have any recollection of a single incident of harming him or saying something cruel to him. And at the same time, I'm thinking, like, that doesn't mean it didn't happen. I'm also thinking, like, maybe I actually just don't, I just wasn't aware of it or I didn't recollect it.

34:01Ben Austen:So all those things are swirling through my head.

34:03Aviva DeKornfeld:Before this, Ben had never thought of himself as a bully. He says, yeah, as a kid, he was unruly, he spent a lot of time in the principal's office, but generally fun-loving. Nothing like what Eddie was describing. Still, Ben figures he'll apologize, even though he doesn't remember doing anything. And so then what he ends up writing is this kind of carefully worded, non-apology apology. Okay? He writes that he's deeply embarrassed. He's sorry he made Eddie feel this way. And then he can't resist. He goes on to tell this story. It's a memory he had from when they were little kids together. The teacher had taken the class out to a park across from the school.

34:44Aviva DeKornfeld:They're sitting in a circle playing duck, duck, goose. And this dog runs over, off leash, golden retriever mutt. Maybe it was a puppy, Ben thinks.

34:53Ben Austen:You know, the most unintimidating dog you could ever see in your life. And I remember looking over and seeing Eddie's face as he saw the dog. And he looked like he had just seen a ghost. Just pure terror. He stood up. And I remember shouting at him. And maybe I'm inventing this memory, but this is how I remember it. I said, Eddie, sit down. You know, the dog isn't interested in you. And he starts to run. and the dog, being a dog, gave chase. And I said to Eddie that maybe I was a lot like that dog, you know, like rambunctious, playful, and like when things ran, I was the kind of person that would give chase.

35:35Aviva DeKornfeld:Were you saying through that story, like maybe I did something, but the problem was that you were too scared of me and I meant you no harm, like that dog? Is that what you're trying to say with this story? Totally.

35:47Ben Austen:I was saying like, I'm sorry, and I don't want you to feel bad and I'm willing to like step up and like, you know, say the things. But then I also had to tell this damn story, which is like, it's actually not me, it's you. Like, you know, I'm not sure that's fair, but like, you know, you were scared of things that weren't like actually threatening you.

36:07Aviva DeKornfeld:Ben ended his message. I do understand. I do acknowledge. I am sorry. Sincerely, Ben. So he sends the message. Eddie writes him right back.

36:21Ben Austen:Again, it felt like the ping came back, almost like, you know, the moment I press in. And he starts, I give thanks to God who has given us life and sustained us and allowed us to reach this moment. Today is a joyful day. I can't adequately express how moved I am by your words. You are a mensch. I am stunned by the accuracy of your recollection of the 53rd Street Park, now the Harold Washington Park. To be honest, I struggled with phobia of dogs well into adulthood.

37:02Aviva DeKornfeld:And let me just interrupt you there. So then he sort of retells the story too, but he doesn't seem to understand the point you were trying to make with your story, that maybe he was the one who was a little too scared of things that weren't scary. And then he writes that he feels like he can literally bury the tension between the two of you that went unacknowledged for more than 30 years. Just read his closing lines here.

37:21Ben Austen:Yeah. I am grateful for this new chapter. Needless to say at this point, but still important, I forgive you. I look forward to staying in touch and enjoying a true friendship. Your friend, Eddie.

37:35Aviva DeKornfeld:At this point, do you feel like you might have done something to bully him? Or do you actually not believe you did anything and it's all in his head? Because I think both things are possible, right? You really might have done something real that he could tell you if you asked him directly. And you realize, oh, yeah, I did that. But it also might be possible, like, he can't come up with any incident. What do you think is the truth?

38:01Ben Austen:Yeah, I actually don't know. I mean, the way you frame that, like, I have no fucking idea.

38:08Aviva DeKornfeld:This got stuck in Ben's head. What had he done, if anything? Had he been a good kid or a bad kid? Ben decided to find out. Seemed like a good question to ask a rabbi, right? He prepared this report.

38:26Ben Austen:I reach out to Eddie. Ask if he's game to revisit the messages we sent back and forth. Our memories of each other. Sure, he says. It makes sense to do this in person. He's in Florida, a short drive outside Boca Raton, in a subdivision. There's a palm tree right in front of us. Sculpted bushes. There's also a house glowing with Christmas decorations. Another displaying a Beware of Dogs sign. I know neither can be Eddie's. His is the one in between. Eddie emerges from the front door. Eddie. Welcome. Thank you.

39:05Ira Glass:Great to see you. Thanks for doing this. Hope you got some sun rays today.

39:10Ben Austen:I've seen Eddie only once since we were kids, and I'm struck by how much he looks like the kid I remember. Even though he's now about six feet with gray in his goatee. He's wearing a yarmulke. He's also got this pouch attached to his belt for his phone. He leads me inside. This is my wife, Ariella. Hi. Hi.

39:30Jake Cornell:Nice to meet you. You're welcome, welcome.

39:33Ben Austen:My brother lost tonight. His teenage daughter is home. His other two kids are out in the world. He says one is about to get married. He's been a rabbi at different congregations, but he tells me he now works as a chaplain at a hospital. He likes it because he gets to tend to people of all religions. Eddie guides me into the dining room. Laid out on the table, there are all these photographs, All right, I'm a little embarrassed of seeing all these things, Eddie. Yeah, yeah. It catches me off guard. Eddie's been preparing for this meeting. We went to the same high school, too. Our yearbook is open to my senior picture.

40:14Ira Glass:Yeah, yeah, so that's you. Oh, yeah, yeah. That's me. I just, this is... Your wife is in here.

40:20Ben Austen:Yeah, she is. My wife, Danielle, also graduated high school with us. Obviously, I kept in better touch with her. Then, Eddie points to a faded photo I've never seen before. It's of little kids in a classroom, around a table, eating cupcakes. There's Eddie standing, and not far from him, me.

40:41Ira Glass:1977, you and I both turned six. So May was my sixth birthday, and this is my sixth birthday party. So that's me with a crown, and that's you, of course.

40:54Ben Austen:Yeah, front and center. Both of us are smiling as wide as can be. But I know for more than 40 years of Eddie's life, he looked at a photo like this one and was haunted by me. Was he right to feel that way? Have I been wrong all these years about who I am? Eddie tells me about the moment he first heard from me again. He was just down the hall here, in the kitchen, making dinner for his family.

41:19Ira Glass:I picked up my phone and was getting the table set, whatever or waiting for dinner to warm up and uh i saw a friend request from ben austin and it stopped me cold in a in a strange sense it it surprises me even to this day because i mean you know i i've encountered a lot of people throughout my life and for something was different with you and that's my memory of you I felt uh threatened by you I thought I felt you

41:57Ben Austen:were a bully towards me all right this is why I came down here this is a way harder question for me to ask you and one that I've probably avoided I know I've avoided before and what did I do like Like, how was I your bully?

42:15Ira Glass:Yeah, I'm glad to have the opportunity to discuss it. I didn't want to burden you about petty stuff. I mean, we're talking about stuff that happened between us when we were six, seven, eight years old. And here we are now almost on the cusp of being 55 years old. So this is 50 years almost in the past. So it seems petty. but do you remember what you called me in those early years?

42:46Ben Austen:Not at all, Eddie. And I almost want to run out of the room. Like, I don't know.

42:51Ira Glass:All right. So you called me Eddie Spaghetti.

42:55Ben Austen:My response right then, and I feel terrible for saying this. I want to laugh. I mean, I definitely could see myself saying this. I'm not denying that. But in the absence of any memory of what I did to Eddie, I had imagined, I don't know, something so much worse. I came all this way to Florida for a goofy rhyme.

43:16Ira Glass:For the six-year-old version of me, I was hypersensitive. Every time you called me Eddie Spaghetti, I burst into tears, and the rest of the class would laugh. Mark would laugh, Ari would laugh, and other people would join in calling me Eddie Spaghetti.

43:35Ben Austen:You're pointing at the yearbook pictures here of these kids. Yeah, yeah.

43:38Ira Glass:And it all seems so silly now. It's utterly silly, but as a six-year-old kid, I felt like, you know, I was the one everyone made fun of in class.

43:56Ben Austen:I do get it. It's about what a hard time Eddie had back then, how much he felt like an outsider, and how I was one of the kids who made it harder. But it's also just so weird the two of us sitting here, two men in our 50s, and hearing him repeat what I said when I was like six or seven, I make a nervous joke about spaghetti being positive. It's noodley flexibility. Plus it's delicious. Those are the kinds of things I say to people, always have. I recognize that how you react to Eddie's words, what you feel right now about him or me, probably depends on your relationship to your own past. Maybe you're remembering things being done to you or doing things to someone else.

44:43Ben Austen:Or maybe you're the type who's forgotten all this sort of stuff and that's exactly where you want to keep it. Eddie pauses and I think he's done. That's all he's got. I guess I wasn't such a bad kid after all. But then Eddie looks down at a yellow legal pad. It's covered in handwritten notes. Oof, there's definitely more.

45:07Ira Glass:It must have been first or second grade because most of us had those metal lunchboxes, usually with themes from TV shows on them. My lunchbox was The Six Million Dollar Man with Steve Austin, played by Lee Majors. I love it.

45:28Ben Austen:This turns out to be a story about a time I did something that seems worse, physically worse at least. He says when we were six, I kicked his ass. I'm not sure why he didn't lead with that. Here's how he remembers it going down.

45:44Ira Glass:So it's lunchtime. The teacher's telling everybody to get their lunchboxes and line up. And I pull my metal lunchbox off and someone else's metal lunchbox falls on you, like falls on your shoulder. Maybe you had a bruise the next day, but what I do remember is you then just started whacking me.

46:08Ben Austen:Like I hit you.

46:08Ira Glass:Yeah, hitting me multiple times. And I really remember seeing your eyes and seeing rage in your eyes.

46:17Ben Austen:So you're physically whacking me.

46:21Ira Glass:And then finally, a teacher came over and separated us. And I don't remember anything else that day. I just, I remember you hitting me, and I remember the rage in your eyes.

46:33Ben Austen:He says he wasn't seriously injured or anything. We were both just little kids. I don't recall any of this. Well, I'm definitely sorry for that. I don't quite know what to make of it. What does it mean that I did that? I think, Eddie, I probably fought a lot at those times. It's terrible I beat Eddie up. This doesn't seem totally out of character for me. I mean, I remember on the playground back then, kids throwing a ball in my face. I'd get mad and throw it back in theirs, and then we'd go on playing. What I don't get is why what I did to Eddie that day stood out so much from the other chaos of childhood around us.

47:27Ben Austen:In the middle school Eddie and I both attended, it wasn't uncommon for one kid to say to another, after school, meaning at 3.30 in the parking lot or on the playground, we're going to fight. It was sometimes said to me. When we got to high school, I tried to avoid fights as much as possible. The stakes were too high. I saw kids at my school swing bats, golf clubs, once a hatchet. Our junior year, two guys jumped me for a gold chain. My wife says when I showed up at school that week with a broken nose and two black eyes, it was the first time she noticed me. Like, noticed me as a potential mate.

48:09Ben Austen:Not sure what that says about either of us. I remember these moments, but I don't feel plagued by them. Not in the way Eddie was by me. But I realize in saying all that, part of me is defending myself. Little kid Ben. I'm trying to prove I wasn't a bully. Later I even talk with an elementary school principal in Chicago to see whether my actions back then checked their four boxes of bullying. I did check at least two. Eddie has one more memory on his notepad that he wants me to hear.

48:45Ira Glass:As I recall, we're at the 53rd Street Park. The teacher took us out on a nice day. We're sitting playing duck, duck, goose.

48:56Ben Austen:He repeats the same story I shared with him in our Facebook exchange. It starts just as I remember, but with a different conclusion. It's that story of how when we were seven or eight and our class went to the park, a dog was off leash.

49:10Ira Glass:I had a serious phobia, and I just high-tailed it. And I ran, screaming. I don't know if it was that time but I know there were other times that I ran across Hyde Park Boulevard which is a busy street with buses and cars and trucks back to the safe side where the school building was and I remember being laughed at by you and other students in the class I'm not saying you're the only one, but I perceived you as the ringleader.

49:47Ben Austen:Man, I mean, in the story I told, it was the opposite of laughing. Yeah. Like I was trying to protect you.

49:53Ira Glass:Of course.

49:53Ben Austen:That's the part we remember so differently. Maybe I've held on to my version because in it I've cast myself as the good guy. I see his terror, and I'm the one calling out to him, telling him not to run. Eddie describes another boy who teased him that day about how fast Eddie ran from the dog. He could be a track star if there was always a dog behind him. Eddie blamed me for that one, too. That's just how he saw me back then.

50:21Ira Glass:My memory over the arc of our young childhood was being teased by you. And at some point, that became layered on my dog phobia. And so, in a way, you became the dog.

50:39Ben Austen:I became the dog? For Eddie, I turned into this major figure in his life. I became this villain. Eddie tells me that when he changed schools, I wasn't the only reason, but I was part of it. And he tells me how decades later he saw a photo. It was from our 20th high school reunion. He spotted me in the background and was relieved he didn't go. Then, classic me, I sent him that note which was way more clever than honest. He opened it at a cemetery after presiding over a funeral. He tells me it was like a spell was broken. It set him free.

51:20Ira Glass:I think I just wept at that moment. I was just so grateful to hear or to read that you had accepted what I wrote with such incredible grace. and I just felt blessed. It was big. It was a momentous time in my life. I mean, it's a time that there's a before and there's an after.

51:55Ben Austen:Eddie, that's powerful. And complicated. Yeah, complicated. I decide to tell Eddie the truth. How in that message, the one that broke the spell, I had said sorry but wasn't sure I had done anything wrong. My apology wasn't really an apology. Did he understand that when he got it?

52:19Ira Glass:I think I did, or at least in retrospect I did. I remember sharing it with other people, and they said, did he really apologize? And I'm like, my sense is that perhaps not fully, but it was enough. It was what I needed at that moment. And perhaps I chose to layer more apology on it than you were actually saying at the time. but you finished your note saying, I acknowledge and I'm sorry. And that's what I needed at that moment and that's what I embraced.

53:13Ben Austen:It's not just that Eddie and I see our memories of each other differently. I realize we also have a different way of seeing the world. Eddie, he's a man of faith. If it's enough, it's enough. not me. I can't help it. I need to set the record straight. I'm embarrassed about the things I did and that I hurt you, but I'm also thinking that a lot of it is just, it's about being kids. Yeah. And I don't think I was a bully in that sense. And I wonder if you think I am.

53:47Ira Glass:No, absolutely not.

53:48Ben Austen:I don't mean right now. I mean, when you think back on those moments.

53:51Ira Glass:How can I look at this picture of six-year-old Ben smiling? But come on.

53:57Ben Austen:But you looked at that picture for years and saw the dog.

54:01Ira Glass:Yes. Yes. But this little six-year-old Ben smiling, grinning, sweetest. I mean, look, you can pinch the cheeks practically.

54:12Ben Austen:But that feels like a revisionist history of how you saw that picture that loomed in your imagination.

54:19Ira Glass:I am revising it now, but we as adults have a right to change the narrative. You know, Eddie, I feel like your version of me today and over time is both I'm way worse than I am and I'm better than I am.

54:42Ben Austen:There's a little bit of way of when you're saying you're seeing my true self. I guess what I'm saying is I'm not, you're also seeing these two extremes and I'm some, I'm not really either of those. As he's pointing at this photo of me, it's like everything has flipped. I'm no longer even a bully when I was a kid. And as an adult, he's talking about me like this great liberator. He even compares me at one point to a famous rabbi who marched with Martin Luther King. in some ways what I'm hearing is I've sort of liberated you from this stuff which is also feels yeah I don't know that doesn't feel exactly me either I mean I try to do I want to do good

55:28Ira Glass:yeah yeah look there's people come to me and say that time you spent with me in the hospital or that sermon you gave, it changed my life. And did I really do anything? I did what I do every day. Every day I visit people in the hospital. Every day I study some piece of scripture or Jewish wisdom and try to make some meaning out of it for a congregation. And sometimes it lands and sometimes it doesn't. And with you, you did something good and I'm holding it up as good. How does that sound? It sounds like Eddie's a pretty good rabbi

56:20Ben Austen:and that he got what he needed from me. See, I'm not such a bad guy, but I got something out of this too. It's clear Eddie and I didn't know each other well as kids, and certainly not as adults either. But here I am in Florida, in his subdivision, in his home. I can see the books on his shelves. His kids' artwork is on the walls. He's got a tree out back in his yard. It grows star fruit. Eddie's cut up slices for us to snack on. And we've managed on this night to talk for hours. I do feel responsible for my past actions, even the ones from way back that I can't remember. As far as what to do about that, we now know each other, at least better.

57:09Ben Austen:That feels real. Maybe at this point in our lives, it's about the best we can do. Amen.

57:26Aviva DeKornfeld:Ed Austin is a writer in Chicago. His most recent book is Correction about the parole system.

57:43Jake Cornell:Getting to know you Getting to know all about you

57:50Ben Austen:Getting to like you Getting to hope you like me

57:58Ira Glass:Getting to know you

57:59Aviva DeKornfeld:Today's show was produced by Aviva de Kornfeld and Tobin Glow. The people who put together the show include Fia Benin, Michael Comedé, Suzanne Gabber, Cassie Howley, Lana Jaffe-Waltz, Seth Lynn, Miki Meek, Catherine Raimondo, Stone Nelson, Robin Reed, Nadia Raymond, Anthony Roman, Ryan Rummory, Alyssa Shipp, and Christopher Sutala. Our managing editor, Sara Abdurahman. Our senior editor is David Kastenbaum. Our executive editor is Emmanuel Berry. Special thanks to Adam Ross at The Swanee Review, Shin Yee Pai, Lauren Herz, Sarah Veldhysen-Staley, Cara Dietz, Jodi Crummel, and Peter Kornblue. Peter Lang Stanton, who you heard at the beginning of the show talking about his parents being in the CIA, made a radio story years ago about his dad's involvement in covert operations in Laos during the Vietnam War.

58:40Aviva DeKornfeld:We link to it from our website, thisamericanlife.org. This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange. If you'd like to get bonus episodes, if you'd like to listen to all of our regular episodes without the ads, and most importantly, if you would like to help us keep making the show, please consider becoming a This American Life partner. There are more than 20 bonus episodes waiting for you right now, including a brand new one where one of the people who adds music underneath our stories here on the show explains the sometimes very puzzling situations that she has gotten in with certain stories and her attempts to figure out what music to use.

59:17Aviva DeKornfeld:Join at thisamericanlife.org slash lifepartners. That link is also in the show notes. Thanks, as always, to a Borghams co-founder, Mr. Troy Malatia. You know, he told me this week he's switching from Netflix to HBO Max for one reason. They didn't really have friends. I'm Aaron Glass. Back next week with more stories of This American Life.

1:00:03Aviva DeKornfeld:Next week on the podcast of This American Life, 10 months after the fall of the brutal dictatorship in Syria, a group of Syrian comedians decides to go on a national tour. But it is really not clear what they can say with their newfound freedom, or it's still going to get them in serious trouble.

1:00:18Jake Cornell:I don't think something bad will happen to us. Nobody cares about us. I'm not George Clooney. So a few people telling some jokes, let them.

1:00:27Aviva DeKornfeld:Turns out, some people don't want to let them. That's next week on the podcast on your local public radio station.