Mortgage rates are spiking - how bad will it get?

0:02Georgie Frost: Welcome to This Is Money podcast sponsored by Trading212. I'm Georgie Frost and joining me and Simon Lambert today is Helen Crane. And coming up, mortgage rates are rising and the best deals are disappearing fast. It comes at a time when over a million Britons are coming off ultra low mortgages this year. What's going on and what should you do if that's you? Also today, Simon has fixed his energy bills. He thinks you should too. plus the nine biggest pension mistakes you can make and what they could cost you and nationwide fairer share. What should customers hoping for a£100 payment do with their money?

0:35Georgie Frost: Don't forget, you stay up to date with all the latest breaking money news. Just go to thisismoney.co.uk or download the app. But first, mortgage rates continue to rise on a daily basis at the moment and the cheapest deals are being pulled from the market just as quickly. In fact, in a 48-hour period last week, almost 500 deals disappeared. That's the fastest rate since the disastrous Liz Trust mini budget, if you remember back in 2022. We're not there yet. Back then, over 900 went in just one day. But still, it's not good for the over one million households coming off those ultra cheap deals that they signed in 2021.

1:12Georgie Frost: Helen, goodness me, what's going on out there and why?

1:18Helen Crane: so to illustrate this a bit I've just had an email from a mortgage broker which has eight separate attachments and all the attachments are different lenders announcing that they're about to

1:28Georgie Frost: put their rates up so that's kind of how it's going at the minute over the last couple of weeks

1:35Helen Crane: how far are we into world war three two weeks now almost um so lenders have just been putting their rates up again and again some of them have done it twice in two days just basically to keep up with expectations around inflation and interest rates because as I think we've talked about before the effect of the conflict in Iran is probably going to be pushing up inflation making Bank of England interest rate reductions less likely in the near future maybe even seeing rates rise and And all of that is making lenders scared that they will be charging their customers rates that are too low for their mortgages.

2:20Helen Crane: So they're just creeping them up and up and up on an almost daily basis, which is, you know, a scary time for anyone who's got a remortgage coming up or is maybe looking to buy a house. So to talk about where we are at the moment, as of today, the average two year fix, and this is across all deposit sizes, say from people with 5 % deposits up to sort of 40 plus, the average two year fix is 5.10%. On Monday this week, it was 4.87. So that's quite a rise in just a week. And average five year fix is a little bit more expensive. So today, 5.19%. And at the start of the week, they were 4.98%. So you can get rates that are much cheaper, especially if you've got a big deposit or a lot of equity.

3:12Helen Crane: So at the moment, the cheapest rate, which is a two year fix is 3.78%. There is kind of worry that the cheapest rates are creeping towards and above 4%, which is something we haven't seen for a while. So that cheapest rate according to money facts is the highest uh that it's been since april 2025 although having said that you know in the last couple of years we have had people fixing on rates are more expensive than that um i was checking this because i got my mortgage about 18 months ago so summer 2024 uh when rates were not the highest they've been in recent years but quite high it was during that little period where people a bit were a bit worried about inflation interest rates not coming down as fast as they should have been so I checked yesterday what mortgage I would be offered today on the same sort of basis and the rate that I'm on is still almost a percent more expensive than the one I could have got a couple of days ago when I checked so it has been worse in recent times but I guess the worry is that they sort of keep keep going up and where does it end?

4:22Georgie Frost: Where does it end indeed, Simon? Just read this morning, Barclays Act is sub 4 % fixed mortgages for new customers. It's a good illustration, isn't it, that when lenders price their mortgages, they aren't just following what's happening with the base rate. They're looking about to what's happening in the future. But I thought on Monday, markets had settled a bit. Trump said the war's nearly over. I thought we were back to normal.

4:47Simon Lambert: ah but that was only late on monday earlier on monday i believe markets were tanking right got it and then late on monday they revived slightly because trump said the war was nearly over and then on tuesday was good and then wednesday bad thursday bad i should know what's happening today on friday as we're recording this i haven't i've actually been so busy that i haven't properly checked where we're at it will change any look oh no stock market's up 12 points today i don't know what the oil price is doing whether it's doing 80 80 something dollars a barrel or 100 something dollars a barrel i mean it's done both this week um which is quite mad actually to go backwards and forwards between those two things so i think the answer to your question is we are not out of the woods yet i mean interestingly it is something you can add to the list of things you can't blame Liz Truss for, which, you know, she'll be glad of, at least in this instance.

5:47Simon Lambert: But, you know, as Helen said, to put this in context, actually, and this is quite interesting because I had to remortgage in September. But to put this in context, when I remortgaged in September, I snuck in just below 4%. So I managed to fix for five years at 3.95%. I've just done a quick comparison using This Is Money's Mortgage Finder service. And there are no fixes, five-year fixes, that would now offer me below 4%. But the lowest would be 4.08%. But the one from my lender, the equivalent to the one that I took out in September, is at 4.14%. Now, that's a step up. But it's not a massive step up.

6:32Simon Lambert: We're not talking about a huge mortgage spike here. the concern is that if the the pace of the pace of uh rate rises continues on mortgages then obviously we could end up at a point where that 4.14 is suddenly 4.5 or nudging 5 but i do think that there is an element where some of what's happening here is reflecting the fact that mortgage lenders had cut rates so much uh at the end of last year and certainly at the start of this year there was a real mortgage battle that went on and you saw mortgage rates quite aggressively cut in January and we've talked about this before on the podcast the pendulum swings too far in one direction and it doesn't take much to happen certainly this is definitely counts as much to happen just to be clear this is not a not much to happen this is a much to happen scenario so when a much to happen scenario comes then you can expect mortgage rates to go back the other way

7:31Georgie Frost: So Helen, what should you do if you're in this situation?

7:35Helen Crane: The important thing is to not panic. I know when you see headlines, when you're about to remortgage and you see a headline saying, oh, rates are going up, so many lenders are increasing, it's easy to kind of panic. But I think it's still important to look and check that you're really getting the best deal for your circumstances, even if that is a bit more expensive than it might have been a few weeks ago. The first thing to say is if you're coming up for a remortgage, you can fix in a new rate three to six months in advance of your old one ending. So say you've got a remortgage coming up at the end of the summer, you could lock in a rate now, probably.

8:14Helen Crane: And then if rates do continue to go up, you can keep on that rate, happy days. If they do go down again, you'll probably be able to switch to a cheaper one again. so it's worth acting in advance if you've got that time and if you use a mortgage breaker which is a really good idea because they'll be across all of this you'll get a man like the one who just emailed me with eight different lenders rate updates so they'll kind of know what's going on across the market and they'll be able to help you with that sort of switching rates if you need to I think just basic things that we always say as well be aware of the fees that are being charged on deals because especially if you're on a higher rate and you roll that fee into the loan that can kind of rack up over time and yeah don't be afraid to switch away from the lender that you're already with I know it can be sort of tempting to say oh you know it's probably a bit easier if I just do a product transfer with my existing mortgage lender but if they're not offering the best rate you know that can that can be quite costly especially if rates are rising so you know don't be afraid to switch to a different lender because yeah over a say five-year mortgage term that can be thousands plus speed and sort of tens of thousands of pounds depending on how big your mortgage is.

9:30Georgie Frost: To fix or not to fix for two or five years that is the question.

9:36Simon Lambert: Well it's a very it's a very good question and it's one that people face all of the time. Certainly I think a moment like now indicates why five years is a good choice. In my mind and this is just what's been right for me effectively if you can remortgage and you can get a mortgage rate around four percent then that's historically speaking that's a good rate and that's pretty cheap money it doesn't look that cheap compared to the rates that were on offer in the kind of latter years before covid and then over the covid period you know i've come i've talked about the fact that i remortgaged to a 3.95 % rate in September.

10:14Simon Lambert: I came off a 1.4 % rate onto that. But over my property owning life, 3.95 % has been a pretty decent rate for most of it. So if you're mortgaging around that level, and you're comfortable with your monthly payments, then maybe go for five years, because then you just don't have to worry about it again. You could go for two years. You could think, okay, well, rates are going to come down, and I can then benefit from that. But what if they don't what if they go up what if something happens something did just happen um also two years comes around remarkably quickly uh believe it or not it's now 2026 which means that was six years ago i know crazy six six years ago that definitely doesn't feel like six years if i'm going to be entirely honest to me that feels more like about two years i mean two years ago therefore feels like it was about 20 minutes ago and i mean i know that this is directly related to the fact i'm getting old and all that kind of stuff but like do you really want to be remortgaging every two years there are costs involved obviously if you think you're not going to stay in your property for five years if you think you're going to move in the near future you might have another reason for taking a shorter fix then do seriously consider taking a shorter fix but personally i've always on the longer fix times i do think there are moments when a longer fix is potentially not a great idea people fixing for five years during that trust spike you know maybe they've gone okay actually this might just be a moment in time they might just come back down um but you know i i think i i personally feel five is better but two is still very very popular and I'm not going to tell you the story again of how I should have listened to my mother and fixed for 10 years and then I wouldn't have had the problem in September

12:17Georgie Frost: Quite, quite Talking of fixing though Simon you've fixed something else haven't you and you've written about it and you're encouraging us to do the same

12:24Simon Lambert: Oh yeah I fixed my energy bills How did that feel? It felt amazing It felt amazing because right I did it and then I emailed my wife and said by the way I've fixed our energy bills and then she read something and whatsapped me last weekend while I was away and went this was a genius move Lambert because she'd sent me something about energy bills potentially going up to 2 ,500 pounds I was like I'm gonna stick that in the screenshot I don't normally get this was a genius move being sent to me by my own wife um normally it's about i sort of level of stuff i get in reader comments where it's just people calling me an idiot um look i did it last week because on the monday after this iran conflict kicked off and we're writing stories about gas prices going through the roof i just thought to myself do you know what energy bills aren't going to be getting any cheaper anytime soon i'm just going to go and have a look so i looked it up we've got an energy comparison service on the site right i had a quick look at that showed me all the different deals you can get but actually i'm quite happy with my energy supplier my energy supplier is octopus and i think it works quite well i finally found an energy supplier that does a good job right i like the fact that i'm because i'm happy to have a smart meter i can see what my bills are and everything like that i've had good service from them so i thought i'll go see what they can do and bear in mind this was last monday or tuesday right they were still offering a fix for 12 months that was uh below not just the price cap we're on at the moment but 100 pounds cheaper than the price cap that we're going to move to in april now my suspicion is that once that price cap in april is done and we get a new one in july it's probably going to be higher based on what's going on at the moment so i thought do you know what i'm going to end my eternal optimism that energy bills are going to come down.

14:22Simon Lambert: I don't think they're going to come down for at least a year. They're probably going to go up. So I'm going to fix. And I pressed a button and I fixed my energy bills. And now I don't need to worry about it. And I seriously think that everybody listening to this should consider fixing their energy bills.

14:39Georgie Frost: That's what Lee said last week. It might be too late. Is it not too late?

14:43Simon Lambert: It's not too late. No, no, no. It's not too. This is not true. I don't mean to be mean to lee here right okay so so sam bromley are you know money and consumer guides writer this week has updated our best energy fixes article and yes the best deals have gone right but there are still deals out there that can beat the price cap and it takes you five minutes to find out whether you can find a deal that beats the price cap and i would argue that that is five minutes well spent at the moment? Helen?

15:17Helen Crane: Yeah, I think Simon's right. It's so easy to switch your energy provider. I actually, one of the few areas of life in which I've been incredibly lucky is my energy bills. So I, back in, I think, early 2022 or late 2021, I moved house and I took out a two-year energy bill fix just before it all kicked off with Russia and Ukraine which is incredibly lucky I just basically skipped the entire energy crisis and then a few months ago so I think it was November December I'd rolled on to a standard variable tariff and decided to switch to a new provider mainly just because I was getting too many emails from my energy provider I found a bit annoying they were sending me loads of like marketing type emails and stuff that I wasn't interested in and it just got my goat so I was like do you know what I'm gonna switch um which turned out to be a great move uh so yeah locked in a couple months ago to a to a rate which I think is quite a bit cheaper than than what I get today and you know I see why people don't switch their energy bills because although prices have gone up a lot in recent years it still tends to be quite a small amount compared to you know you know the biggest of household expenditure but it actually is so easy and they basically do it for you like the new company will essentially handle everything you just have to send some readings and it actually is incredibly easy to do it's really easy to go on a comparison site and you know see what deals you can get and i think it's one of those it's a bit of a no-brainer at the minute as i said and i actually think that's a

17:02Simon Lambert: good point that hella makes there the reason why i hadn't fixed my energy bills like before this you know since switching returned after the energy crisis right because for a while switching just didn't really exist is the reason i hadn't done it is i just couldn't be asked it was only going to save me about 100 you know if it's going to save me 100 pounds a year i mean that's less than 10 pounds a month and as i said i'm an eternal optimist who was hoping that energy bills were going to come down so i was just like well just can't really be bothered i obviously did it back in the old days you know when if you'd never switched you could save 300 pounds right i

17:35Georgie Frost: They obviously did it back then, but then I never really bothered to fix because energy bills just weren't that much.

17:40Simon Lambert: Like they were a small chunk of your household expenditure. But, you know, the memory of the energy price spike is recent in my mind. Now, I was saved from that, like many people, by Liz Truss's energy price guarantee. Second mention for the Truss on the podcast this week. the one good thing she did in september 2022 was introduce the energy price guarantee and that rescued people like me from their bills hitting like five grand a year or something yeah i can definitely see a scenario where if energy bills spiked again what happens next time round is not everybody gets the protection because that was what was argued about last time i was like well you're just helping people in bigger homes you use more energy um you know you should be helping I could definitely see Labour introducing it where it was like, OK, you know, if you're a certain kind of household below a certain kind of use, you're going to get a protection.

18:39Georgie Frost: Like a band D council tax.

18:41Simon Lambert: Yeah, like, yeah, but if they could do a council tax, couldn't it? It could be like, well, if you're in band F, G and H, you're on your own, mate. It's your fault for being rich, living in a big house. Yeah. You could see it happening. So I just thought, yeah, maybe actually I should fix my bills.

18:58Helen Crane: You just reminded me, Simon, I'm pretty sure at that point when we were getting those energy payments, some months I was paying literally nothing for energy. Isn't that weird to think? I'm fairly certain because everyone got the payments, didn't they? So I was literally in deficit because of time.

19:16Simon Lambert: They did that rebate thing, didn't they? Yeah.

19:19Georgie Frost: Are we there yet? Or is it just we're just preparing for what could be the worst case scenario? you does this look like it could go back to the bad old days well the irony is we're not there yet

19:32Simon Lambert: we're actually looking at a scenario where energy bills are going to go down in two weeks because the new energy price cap is going to come in in april which is lower um the worry is is that we could then just stick our head in the sand and come july and october when it next goes the next two times it goes up we get absolutely walloped and you know i would like to think that maybe you know maybe donald trump is right maybe this is just you know maybe it is nearly nearly all over and it's all going to be fine but i'm looking at it and i'm going i'm not convinced if for the sake of a five minute search online you can fix your bills at around about the level they are now or the price cap's going to be in april then and do it for 12 months then i think that probably could see you through most of the early difficulties.

20:21Simon Lambert: So I think it probably is a good move.

20:23Georgie Frost: One group that I feel particularly, sorry, if I just want to touch on this is because during that time, I remember it very well, because there was, I just moved into a new flat and there was a bit of a mess up. I was put as a business customer. And of course, business customers don't have the energy price cap. Simon, if you could see his face, is blowing air with, oh dear, Georgie, oh dear. I spent a year and a half fighting British gas to prove to them that I was not a business. Finally managed to do it. And actually, they gave me my energy for free that whole year. So actually, it worked out quite well in my favour.

21:03Georgie Frost: But it did make me realise just how unbelievably shocking it must have been for businesses, small businesses. And there were plenty of small businesses along my street that were the same size property as me. I thought, wow, you must be really suffering. And let's be honest, businesses are already suffering, Simon.

21:20Simon Lambert: I mean, yeah, anybody listening to anything that I just said who runs a business and has a business energy contract will have been beating their head against the nearest hard object going, you think you're complaining? You think you've got it bad? Yeah, it's an ongoing issue. We were literally, before this even kicked off, we were still talking about it. We were talking about it in the light of hospitality, pubs, restaurants, all these other things, which are still suffering from really high energy costs. We talk about it in terms of manufacturing in the UK. We've got some of the highest energy costs in the world.

21:57Simon Lambert: And this is another reason to do this is because we haven't learned our lesson. Our energy system is still a mess. and the reason why it's a mess is because we rely heavily on imported gas for our heating um we also base our electricity price largely on the gas price because you're basing it on the the marginal production even though actually one of the few things we have been successful at you know over the past decade or so is renewable energy we have lots of renewable energy in this country but we're not making the most of it and there are ways and means of reforming the energy system and making it better now to be fair to ed milliband right you know he knows a lot of this stuff and there is actually stuff that he's trying to do to do that but at the same time we're trying to push a lot of the green stuff that then becomes controversial and everything like that the transition is difficult but the transition is even harder if you're trying to transition through an energy crisis which is what we did last time around and what we're at risk of doing next time around but the point is we need to learn from what happened last time around and if we do end up in a scenario where it is so bad we do need to bring in some help or protection then ideally we don't do it by some kind of mad council tax method just to be clear that was not an idea of something we were suggesting we should do that was the same you know it could happen don't do it but also we need to help businesses um my one of my best friends runs a fish and chip shop he's been absolutely shafted by this.

23:25Simon Lambert: And I've heard all about it. You know, a fish and chip shop is an energy intensive business. And, you know, unless we want to have a scenario where we just don't have any fish and chip shops anymore, then we do need to think about people who run fish and chip shops. Just a national institution. Of course we can get rid of fish and chip shops.

23:44Georgie Frost: All right, we're going to leave fish and chips and all of this to a side and focus on the future. because pensions, as we know, can be confusing and it's not helped when ministers keep changing the rules and mistakes are easy to make. But getting it wrong can have serious consequences come retirement. So this is money, have revealed the common mistakes people make so that you can avoid them. Helen, what are they? What are some of them? We don't have to go through all of them. What are some of the big ones?

24:10Helen Crane: Look, I know this might feel like just another thing that you have to keep on top of. You know, we've said, look at what you're paying for your energy bill. You know, look at your mortgage. but pensions I think are particularly easy to forget especially when you're younger you know kick it down the road and that's something to think about later on but that is completely the wrong attitude to take so the thing with pensions obviously is it's an investment over time so the longer like time is on your side with pensions right you have your whole working life to put into them and and you know the earlier you start the better even if it's only a relatively small amount you know the returns are what really sort of compounds and give you hopefully that a substantial pot to live on when you retire so this is a really useful article and just a reminder of a sort of best practice for keeping on top of your pension and hopefully not making some of these mistakes.

25:09Helen Crane: So number one thing not to do is to opt out of your workplace pension. And according to this, that could cost you£48 ,000 by the time you get to retirement. So the government's kind of made it easy for people now. So if you're over the age of 22, you should get signed up to your workplace pension automatically. And most people do stay in that. But some people opt out. You you know, obviously completely valid reasons for doing that. You know, financial circumstances can be difficult, and you know, it might be unavoidable. But if you at all can do stay opted into your workplace pension, because it's incredibly generous.

25:52Helen Crane: So the example that we've got in here, so if you're auto enrolled, workers contribute a minimum of 8 % of your salary into your pension, that you actually only end up paying half of this yourself. So 1 % comes from the government to be tax relief and 3 % comes from your employer. So it is essentially free money for your retirement. So if you are earning£35 ,000, you contribute about£1 ,150 a year, with a further 287 coming from tax relief and 863 from your employer. So worth staying opted into that. And even if you out for only a short time. So the example here is if you opted out for four years from age 18 to 22, for example, you could retire with£48 ,000 less.

26:41Helen Crane: So try not to if you can. The second mistake that people make is delaying their pension saving. Starting early is obviously the easiest way to build a decent pension pot because the money has longer to grow. So our example is the 25-year-old earning£35 ,000 a year, saving 8 % of their salary, could have£560 ,491 by age 68. That's according to Quilter's numbers. But if they waited till they're 45 to start saving, they would only have£262 ,188. So a huge, huge difference made by delaying it for those 20 years. Other things not to do using a default fund. So when you have a work pension, you can sort of choose what type of fund it's invested in.

27:36Helen Crane: So it might be a lower risk fund. If you're about to retire, and you want to make sure the value of your money doesn't kind of go down if there's a bit of a market shock, or if you're earlier in the career, you might be in a higher risk fund, because you've got time to ride out those sort of investment ups and downs. In the middle of that is the default fund. which is kind of the middle of the road, you know, not the riskiest, but, you know, not completely steady. And a lot of people will just stay in that fund for the majority of their working life. So it's good to keep on top of your pension, work out where it is invested.

28:13Helen Crane: Are you in a time of your life where you should be taking more risk? Are you in a time when you might want to take a bit less risk? Keep on top of where it is. So the example that we've got in our article is that a 21-year-old earning£30 ,000 a year could have£234 ,618 in their pension by retirement with annual growth of 3%, that's according to PensionBee, assuming minimum contributions and 2 % annual wage increases. But if their money grew at 5 % a year instead, so that might be outside of the default fund. They would amass£439 ,785. And if their money grew by 7%, it would be worth £842 ,424.

28:57Helen Crane: So it's really worth keeping on top of where your money is invested and where you want to be.

29:03Georgie Frost: Brilliant. Thank you very much, Helen. Well worth a read of that one. Right, let's move on. Nationwide customers who want to be in with a chance of getting a£100 fairer share payment may want to check their accounts now so they don't miss out if the scheme returns this year. Now, last year, the Building Society paid£400 million to 4 million members, while 2026 hasn't been confirmed, yet eligibility has previously been based on how customers use their accounts in March. So, Helen, before we get into the details, what is Farah's share?

29:36Helen Crane: This£100 annual bonus payment, which Nationwide brought in a few years ago, And it's essentially a little annual kind of treat for their customers as a thank you for being with them is what Nationwide say. So they say that obviously they're not a bank, they don't have shareholders. So instead of paying money out to them, they sort of share their profits with their customers if in years that they have enough profits to do so. So in June last year, 400 million was paid to Nationwide members, as you said. that was up from the amount that was paid the year before. Now, Nationwide hasn't committed to paying this every single year.

30:18Helen Crane: They say that we'll do it when we can. But as you say, it has been paid for the last three years. So, you know, could well happen again, although it hasn't been confirmed. But there's quite strict criteria for getting this payment, which is where it becomes a little bit controversial. So the requirements that there have been in place for the previous years, the payment has been made, is that you need a qualifying active nationwide current account, number one, as well as either a qualifying nationwide savings account, cash ISA, or a nationwide mortgage. So if you read our article, we've got more details about exactly which savings accounts they need to be but it's instant access saver flex saver flex one and isis and i think a few others there's also a minimum amount so you need to have 100 pounds in your savings account or isa or if you have a mortgage you have to have at least 100 pounds left on it now the reason we're writing about this now this payment is normally made in june is because March is the month in which Nationwide checks who is eligible or more accurately they look at your activity in March to check whether you're eligible for the payment in June so last year customers needed to have either£100 in a savings account or ISO or 100 % left on their mortgage on any day in March so if you are someone with a Nationwide current account with a Nationwide mortgage you might want to check your savings account do you have 100 pounds in it if not maybe you could put 100 pounds in it and then you will hopefully get that 100 pounds when it comes to june and so i actually am always trying to get my other half to do this we have a nationwide mortgage and every year i say to him why don't you just open a nationwide savings account you get a 300 pounds and every year he's like great idea i'll do that and then it just never never ever happens so I'll ask him again, but we'll...

32:31Helen Crane: Free money. It's free money, man. Like, just do it. No. But the financial admin is just too much for some people, isn't it, I think?

32:39Georgie Frost: Same here. Same here. Nationwide mortgage. Never do it. Anyway, Simon's stat of the week.

32:47Simon Lambert: 13.8 million. Mm-hmm. That is the amount that the boss of Shell netted in pay and bonuses last year. Despite lower profits at the oil giant, actually, Chief Executive Wiles Sawan saw his total pay package jump 60 % last year. Obviously, there's a big backlash against this and people are not happy about it. But these chief executives defend themselves on the basis that were they chief executives in America, they'd be earning even more money.

33:20Georgie Frost: 13.8 million

33:22Simon Lambert: 13.8 million yeah

33:24Georgie Frost: that'd be nice wouldn't it would be nice anyway

33:28Simon Lambert: this year his fixed salary could go up by 4 % with a potential maximum package of 27.5 million pounds including bonuses that's good

33:39Georgie Frost: I didn't think 13.8 was enough you know so that's good thank you Helen thank you Simon you can keep up to date with all the latest breaking money news just go to thisismoney.co.uk or you can download the app. And if you have any comments or questions for the team or anything you'd like them to look into, Simon.

33:55Simon Lambert: You can email us at podcast at thisismoney.co.uk and you can come to thisismoney.co.uk forward slash podcast, find all podcasts past and join in the debate and read your comments. And if you like our podcast, why not? Wherever you found us, helps other people find us too.