What does unemployment data, GDP figures and market moves say about the economy?

0:01Lee Boyce: Welcome to This Is Money podcast sponsored by Charles Stanley Direct. I'm Georgie Frost and joining me and Lee Boyce today is Helen Crane. And coming up, some rather disappointing economic figures for the Chancellor to digest this week ahead of the budget. Unemployment up, slower growth and warnings of worse to come. Meanwhile, has the FTSE run out of steam just before hitting the 10 ,000 mark? Elsewhere Nationwide makes a welcome promise to keep all branches open until at least 2030. The Royal Mint launches limited edition yellow gold sovereign coins. They're not cheap, but forget gold. Is it time to raid the silver cabinet?

0:36Lee Boyce: And we know school holiday flights go up, but this takes the biscuit. Don't forget to start up to date with all the latest breaking money news. Just go to thisismoney.co.uk or download the app. But first, worried about what the autumn budget might mean for your finances? With Chancellor Rachel Reeves refusing to rule out tax rises, now's the time to stay calm rather than make any rash moves. Charles Stanley directs financial coaching led by This Is Money regular Lisa Kaplan gives you access to a real expert who can help you make sense of your financial plans. Book your free 15-minute call today at charles-stanley.co.uk forward slash financial coaching.

1:14Lee Boyce: No jargon, no pressure, just answers you can trust. Remember, investment involves risk. Now back to the show. Right, a double dose of bad news for the Chancellor this week as she prepares to hike taxes in the budget. Unemployment hit its highest level since 2021 and the economy saw slower than expected growth of just 0.1 % in the three months to September. Analysts meanwhile have slashed next year's forecast and jobs experts say last year's rises in the minimum wage in employer national insurance are still feeding through to today's job figures. Lee, Helen, welcome. um lee put it all together shake it all about a bit what does it all mean why is it so significant so close to the budget oh is the budget done yet georgia are we there sorry mate we've cancelled the anti-budget we've only allowed five because i think i've said five in the introduction there

2:07Georgie Frost: i think you might have done yeah let's shake it all up and and see what it's painting a picture of right so there has been i would say a couple of quite big economic pieces of news this week GDP, of course, was one of the biggies. Just growth of 0.1%, as you said, between July to September. It's an important measure of a country's economy. It's the total value of all finished goods and services produced within a certain period of time. And it doesn't look good. And actually, one of the factors that was in this was the cyber attack, which actually shows you how fragile businesses can be to things like this it's going to be a growing threat we had figures earlier in the week suggesting how many more businesses were having to claim on cyber insurance so it could be a real sort of tip of the iceberg of what could be succumbed over the coming years and how much of an effect it can have uh on on a set of figures like this um and that's kind of helped drag it down but then um we have had some uh forecasters sort of update their figures on where they think that the um country's heading so morningstar for example their forecasters are saying gdp down from what it was predicting 1.5 percent next year to 0.5 percent next year instead basically the tax hikes that could be planned in this budget are going to kneecap economic growth this is what this headline is saying here because there's other analysts that are also pointing to the same thing treasury say gdp growth of 1.1 percent next year down from 1.3 forecast in March.

3:44Georgie Frost: NatWest has gone for 0.8 % and Barclays is actually the most positive at 1.3%. None of that is particularly good reading for the government and a lot of it is over tax hikes that have been sort of rumoured and planned and I think fundamentally having this late budget has just got the rumour mill into more overdrive and more of a frenzy than it you know needed to have been and this week we have seen it looks like the income tax hikes are off the table we've kind of had it all but confirmed that pension lump sum is going to be left alone but it's still such a mixed picture isn't it georgie in terms of the economy maybe

4:23Lee Boyce: i'm wrong here i've never known anything like this before all of this speculation all of these sort of warnings it feels like something new every day and then lee's saying oh this is not going to

4:34Helen Crane: happen but what is going to happen absolutely it's gone into complete overdrive you know we've seen i think it's a little built up over the last few years this sort of cycle where they set the date for the budget and then they start floating things and and you know this isn't just labor the the previous government did do this as well and they put things out there and then essentially if something gets or you know it's all tax like so everything gets a bad reaction but if something gets a terrible reaction then they'll maybe kind of rein it in and this kind of floating things out there I think it's really damaging you know we've seen people sort of tinkering with their pensions and things like that which is really dangerous but you know we've been writing about budget rumors since I think August I think it's like half the year is now taken up by budget speculation it's like it's become like Christmas it's like it takes up like six months of the year The preparation for the budget starts earlier and earlier every year, Georgie.

5:31Helen Crane: It never ends. But we've got less than two weeks to go. So it's going to be over soon. There's probably going to be some really bad news. So it's just, can you tell we're feeling a bit despairing, Georgie?

5:45Lee Boyce: The fact you likened it to Christmas. I mean, we're all a bit fed up of mince pies coming out in August. But I'd take mince pies coming out in August and the amount of speculation that's been happening about this. But Lee mentioned there about the speculation of what's going to be in this budget. But you've been speaking to a jobs expert who's saying that actually it was last budget that's still playing out now into the jobs figures.

6:09Georgie Frost: Yeah, so we've had an unemployment rate of 5 % between July and September 2025. That's the highest since 2021. Actually, I've had a couple of conversations with friends in the last couple of weeks who they're employed. but I've got one friend who kind of doesn't really want to be at the job he's in at the moment but he's too frightened to move he just doesn't think there's anything out there for him to move to in the industry that he's in and I think that might be a symptom of how a lot of people feeling now they're kind of worried about jumping ship into another job the looming threat of AI for example but the person we spoke to for this story Kate Underwood who's managing director of a human resources company saying that you know the last budget is the real culprit behind uh these job figures and what it is is the national insurance hype for businesses that we saw and also uh minimum wage minimum wage has been going up and up and up um to a point now where i was working out figures the other day for how much the minimum wage was for a 16 year old and it's gone up from something like three pound odd in 2015 to seven pounds something now we were talking about our first jobs around the desk um remembering earning like three four quid an hour it was a it was like a rite of passage wasn't it whether it was a job or working in a retailer or whatever of course you were doing it for the money but you're also doing it for the life experience and you know what it taught you going forwards and i think that all those kind of things puts off um you know especially small businesses from taking on more people but interestingly in the data vacancies actually inched up uh 2 000 to 723 000 uh between august and october so you know as kate says openings are there but few people are actually in work and she says that's not stability that's stagnation this is not a one-off this isn't a one-off wobble if the sound of the economy hitting the brakes when jobs go but vacancies don't rise it means businesses aren't confident that does not sound good that's not a good recipe when you mix that in with the gdp figures as well um and i think that the budget you know sometimes small businesses and things like business rates get left behind because you know we're not talking about personal finances here we're talking about people that kind of run um you know the real kind of backbone of this country and you know they're always talking about you know business rates need reform or you know business rates are killing us and then they've got all of these other mounting costs and pressures and then you can kind of start to see how it's a recipe for you know future stagnation in the jobs market future stagnation for gdp and all of that kind of thing you mix it all up and it kind of all paints a very mixed not a great

8:44Lee Boyce: picture so it all comes down to a bit more uh what happens in the budget in a couple of weeks and the decisions that are made there three pound 20 lee that was me at safeway they offered me three pound i negotiated three pound 20 i was never been so proud and i've probably never done

9:00Georgie Frost: it since so it didn't set me up for life but i i used to love safeway georgie georgie there you go it was it was our go-to supermarket in the little town called eastwood outside of south end used to love safeway turned into a morrison's i think i i earned uh i earned four pounds an hour in a shop called the factory shop which basically sells absolutely everything and then i get i remember getting a pay rise and it went up to four pound eight pence i remember it really really really it specifically but also i used to lug like 30 35 kilo boxes upstairs and things i don't know if i've built for that anymore it was like getting paid to go to the gym that's hefty helen do you remember

9:35Helen Crane: yeah so i worked in a shoe shop called brantano which has now gone bust and i got paid three pound 90 an hour to measure little kids feet for school shoes and get kicked in the head right yeah on

9:50Lee Boyce: that note the FTSE has been on something of a tear this year hitting a new record high this week against a backdrop of disappointing economic data and wobbles in other markets the blue chip index outperformed major u.s indices trading up nearly 20 year to date that fueled a lot of speculation that it could reach 10 000 points by the end of the year or even sooner and then it hit a bit of

10:14Georgie Frost: a wobble of its own yes finally isn't it so we should expect that how the podcast works we tend to sort of send the stories over on a Thursday afternoon to get lined up for Friday recording. And I've seen, it's like 9 ,900, you know, it's cruising towards 10 ,000. It's an absolute tear up this week. Started the week at about 9 ,700. And now it's had all of its gains wiped out in one single morning and has dipped at time of recording back to below 9 ,700. It's still up 0.1 % for the week, but it's almost like this week hasn't existed. It's just like, yeah. You may as well have not bothered. No, I may jake it.

10:51Georgie Frost: But it shows you how quickly things can change. But year to date, George, you're right. You know, it's up almost 17%. It has been on an absolute tear up. And let's not forget, in April, we had that real big market wobble. And it actually went below 8 ,000 with all of the AI threat stuff. When we had that kind of really mad wobble. And since then, it's just been edging up and up and up. um one thing we've got to say about the FTSE 100 of course though is it's a very international index um a majority of the businesses are uh of course um on on the market but are you know foreign businesses essentially um and you know it doesn't give a the greatest uh kind of flavor of what's happening in the UK uh so to speak because it is such a global market and then And when you look at the FTSE 250, which is the next 250 biggest companies, a lot of that is actually more UK-based, and that's had a more modest 5.2 % growth year-to-day.

11:55Georgie Frost: There's still nothing to be sniffing. It gives more of a snapshot of British businesses. And looking at the top performers in the FTSE 100, some of them, George, are absolutely incredible. Fresnillo is up 288%. Mexican businesses, gold, silver mines, that kind of thing. And there's a couple of quite big familiar names in there. Rolls-Royce up 106%. And a couple of the big banks are in there as well. Lloyd's is up 78%. Barclays is up 62%. Standard Charter is up 69%. So there have been some real standout winners in the markets. Is it going to reach 10 ,000? That's what you're going to ask me, isn't it?

12:37Georgie Frost: Georgie, is it going to reach 10 ,000? What do you think? eventually yeah at some at some point at some point probably yeah they hit 10 000 by christmas

12:45Lee Boyce: i'm flipping i'm being presented today i'm curious to know you know a lot of speculation about the budget as to what impact that's going to have if it is so international then what what impact would

12:57Georgie Frost: a budget have on it well that's a good question isn't it a lot of it though is to do with just global stability isn't it anyway and like things like you know budgets from around the world of financial you know you have to look at the us and the tariffs uh that that donald trump um just sort of landed on everyone you know how how quickly things can change and actually um talking to actual experts uh instead of just us talking about talking around the table you know analysts are confident it will reach 10 000 by the end of the year they've set a target of 10 778 points which seems very very foul to me uh 10 higher than its current level and fidelity says target prices devised by equity analysts reflect expectations for how an index might perform over the next six to twelve months while forecasts can prove accurate they're not always reliable as seen it 22 when a wave of interest rate heights derailed overly optimistic projections aka things just move on a penny georgie uh and you know it would be quite symbolic for it to to go over 10 ,000 points over that milestone.

14:02Georgie Frost: That's a big number.

14:03Lee Boyce: I mean, it's dead close, isn't it, at the moment? But Helen, I remember you and I talking a couple of weeks back about Goldman Sachs making predictions that interest rates would be cut, and they weren't. And they are real experts. So, you know, I mean, it doesn't really matter, does it, Lee and Helen, if it actually does reach 10 ,000 or not. It's about how it's doing generally and overall.

14:25Helen Crane: Yeah, exactly. I mean, obviously, the index is a collection of shares in different companies. It really depends on how the individual companies are doing is kind of more important than reaching this one number. The budget is going to be a big factor for this as well. You know, obviously, it is an international index, but the kind of companies that are in the footsie that might be affected, and I think a lot of people own are like your house builders and your banks. And I think they will really be looking out for what happens in the budget. And I think that could potentially kind of turn it, you know, if they do start taxing wealth and tinkering around with the property market and, you know, savings and things like that.

15:07Helen Crane: I think that could have start this kind of doom and gloom atmosphere. atmosphere although in the article we've written about this this week we do say that in a way if the budget is really bad it could be good for the footsie because uh if it goes into you know complete chaos again and guilt guilt markets start really uh sort of coming under pressure and the pound starts coming under pressure it'll actually make investing look more appealing um so as you say there's a lot of things kind of feeding into this so uh yeah we'll we'll see what happens.

15:39Georgie Frost: Helen makes a good point there and Dan Coatsworth from AJB has summed this up quite nicely. He says, while doom and gloom might cloud the outlook for businesses and consumers, look back at the job unemployment figures and GDP figures we were just talking about, it could also strengthen the argument for more interest rate cuts and that is traditionally positive for stock markets. It ultimately comes down to the details of the budget as to how markets might react. And then he goes on to sort of say about, you know, the chaos that Helen was is talking about um and because it is such a global market you know people might see it as it being more appealing that the FTSE 100 being more appealing uh and actually look better um and then when you when you compare it to something like the S &P 500 I think lots of people have kind of really got involved in investing in America and might have had a bit of a shock this year um and we've got some um figures here from Neil Wilson of SACS says the FTSE 100 trades at 14 times to 14.3 times earnings and to get to 10 000 overclass what is uplift to 15 times meanwhile the s &p trades at 22.6 times earnings relative valuations have started to matter again due to macroeconomic conditions and high terminal rates the old there is no alternative to america trade is no longer quite as easy as it once was what that suggests is that analysts are saying that the 50 100 is still a little bit undervalued yeah that and i think that's why we've got those spicy kind of outlooks for a plus 10 000 finish to the year all right then let's leave some gloom

17:11Lee Boyce: and doom aside lee because we've actually got a little bit of positive news with bank branches closing up and down the country it comes as some welcome news this week that nationwide building society vowed to keep its entire branch network open until at least 2030 now lee you caught up with retail director mandy beach about why they're doing it but first just explain to us how how many branches are we really talking about what's the picture like and where are people going instead

17:39Georgie Frost: the picture is pretty bleak uh georgia i think you only have to go to any high street and see uh almost the kind of gutted out banks that have disappeared or they've turned into a coffee shop or you know if you're in kensington it's turned into a fancy italian restaurant um you know i think that across the country you we have stories like that and actually 67 percent of bank branches have disappeared since 2015 uh 6731 and that west and rbs have closed 1377 uh bank of scotland halifax lloyds 1252 barclays 1230 hsbc 743 we actually asked the big banks how many branches they've got left and i was quite shocked uh at some of the answers that barclays says it has 200 which I was actually quite wow you have to remember though that they also do these kind of pop up say for example Barkley's shut in my local high street and is now positioned in the library and you can go and visit a couple of days a week when it's open and the whole argument towards banking hubs of course has been strong to have you know just one centralised branch where each bank has a day in that branch and I kind of see the logic to it But Nationwide have kind of flipped all of this on the head.

18:58Georgie Frost: Of course, Nationwide have closed branches in recent times. It's not to say that they haven't closed any whatsoever. But the last couple of years, they've really gone for this branch pledge to keep branches, all the ones that are still open, open. That was until 2028. They've now extended that to 2030. So the Nationwide, if you've got one on your local high street, will be there for the next five years. and it has vowed to keep open all of the Virgin Money branches, which it took over last year. All in all, that's 696 branches. It's now the last branch in 133 towns and villages. And actually, you only have to look in the comments section of this story of how positive people are about it.

19:40Georgie Frost: And that's about how many people were actually kind of jumping from other banks to nationwide. We've seen the switching figures. the switching figures are absolutely incredible anyway but i there's some stats in this i thought quite interesting so in the year to september there was an 11 increase in the number of customers using branches nationwide and it says a third of current accounts and one and a fifth of savings accounts were open in branch in six months to the end of september which suggests that the appetite for face-to-face banking is still there despite a shift to digital and i think something like even one in eight student accounts were open in branch you know we think of the younger generation if has always been on the phones and using apps and whatnot but they're saying that you know there's still an appetite for students to come in and open a bank a student account in branch so you add all of that up and it feels like a positive move for high streets and let's not again forget about small businesses um there was some data that i i was chatting to the fs fsb the federation of small business and they were saying that a third of local businesses say that a reduced ability to accept cash poses an extreme risk to their high street and three and five claim their local branch is closed since the pandemic it becomes difficult when banks disappear from high streets to keep a cash uh kind of float going because where do you go and pay in you know your your takings and all of that kind of thing do business banking nationwide doesn't offer business banking but virgin money does but you could but you can see you know it decimated the high street and it It becomes less of a reason to visit the high street.

21:15Georgie Frost: And I think it's one of many symptoms of why the high street is struggling. I caught up with Mandy Beach, retail director at Nationwide, to find out why they were making this move and actually why it made sense as a business, if it was a sensible business decision.

21:28Helen Crane: We've actually had a promise in place in some guise or other since 2019. So our customers will be familiar with this. But it sort of further commits us at a time when, on many high streets, we are seeing competitors leave. And on some of these high streets and many that I visit, they are thriving. I don't know when you went last into a branch, Lee, but I would say they remain busy. We saw 11 % more transactions last year than we did the year before. And by transactions, that's just genuinely people using the facilities and services, as well as those customers that may then come in to open current accounts.

22:03Helen Crane: So they are really thriving. So the promise is really to reassure people that where they might see others leaving, we're absolutely here to stay.

22:13Georgie Frost: And how crucial is it, would you say, to some of the communities, perhaps some of the communities where the high street isn't friding?

22:19Helen Crane: Yeah, a couple of things I'd say is that when we see a closure, let's say we have a phrase called last branch in town, and that's where we're remaining when others have closed. And we're in over 100 of those places now. So these are generally smaller places across the wider UK. But when we see a competitor announcement close, we see an uptick in two things, the ATM that we have in those branches and the amount of cash that goes out of them, as well as the numbers of accounts that we open. So what that tells us is that people really do value and they may not use the branch all the time. But the fact that they have somewhere to go in a time of need or for anything else, actually, that they might want, it's having that choice point, really, that really does matter.

23:04Helen Crane: I spoke to a branch colleague yesterday and they were saying to me that one of the first questions people ask us is, you're not going to be like everybody else, are you? Then they commit to moving the business to us. So if you think about it, what people want is number one, service from great people and provide me with brilliant service. But equally, they want the products that sit behind it and everything else. And by the way, it doesn't mean that just because we're committed to branch, we don't also invest in our facilities on the phone or equally accept that people do enjoy using the mobile bank too.

23:37Helen Crane: It's the whole thing coming together.

23:38Georgie Frost: It's about having choice, isn't it, I guess?

23:41Helen Crane: We sort of commit this idea of channel of choice. So in other words, if you come in to a branch, you can do what you need to do there. So it's not a question of the counter is only available for a certain amount and you need to use the ATM. It's genuinely allowing customers to interact with us in a way that suits them. And that has been a real game changer because people are generally thinking that you're trying to migrate into digital. That is not the case.

24:06Georgie Frost: Who would you say is a typical craftsman going into a branch?

24:10Helen Crane: It's all walks of life that use our branch facilities. So reassurance, looking after our elderly, absolutely critical. you also see perhaps more vulnerable individuals who might need more support than they can get by using the phone or maybe digital. Again that's really reassuring for that particular group but equally what we're definitely seeing more of is the younger population, younger group maybe 18 to 24 really valuing that sort of life moment whether that be help me with an ISA, show me how I need to save. So I would say people need to be reassured that we're you know our doors are open for everyone to come in and see our colleagues at the time that suits them and for whatever suits them as well.

24:51Lee Boyce: That was Lee talking to Nationwide Retail Director Mandy Beach. That's it for part one.

25:02Georgie Frost: I'm joined now by Blairim Gashi of Charles Stanley Direct for our weekly Invest and Explain feature. Blairim, a question from a listener here. The FTSE 100 is nearing 10 ,000 points but is the index a reflection of the uk economy whatsoever honestly speaking i think the footsie 100 doesn't really tell you much about the uk economy okay a lot of these big names that are in the footsie 100 such as shell uh unilever most of their kind of profit and money is made overseas um i think there was actually a statistic that said around three quarters of the footsie 100 earnings are from are from abroad okay so when the footsie moves it's often reacting to kind of global stuff kind of like the oil prices the dollar or you know recently what's happening between the US and China rather than what's actually happening in the UK high street okay if you want a better indication or better read on how the UK is actually doing and which tracker shows this I would probably say to look at the FTSE 250 which is the index of the next largest 250 companies listed in the London market because that's more focused on domestic companies so yes You know, the FTSE hitting 10 ,000 is a nice headline, but it doesn't really mean the UK economy is booming.

26:13Georgie Frost: It just means big global firms such as Shell and Unilever are having a good run so far. That's great. Thank you very much. Thank you.

26:22Lee Boyce: Welcome back. The Royal Mint is bringing back the classic yellow gold sovereign for the first time in decades, and collectors are already getting a bit excitable. As for investors, with gold prices surging, markets jittery and trust in physical assets at a premium, these new bullion coins starting from£1 ,200, so not cheap, could offer exactly the sort of reassurance that they're looking for. So is it nostalgia, a bit of investment savvy or a bit of both? Lee, the coin man voice, give us a little potted history of the yellow gold sovereign.

26:58Georgie Frost: yeah so this is a real historic coin uh in in british history and it's been part of our sort of money identity i would say for 500 years probably more than 500 years because it was introduced in 1849 under king henry the seventh and it symbolized authority and national stability and the modern sovereign the one i recognize across the globe today uh debuted about 200 years ago and it went on to become the sort of like dominant gold coin of the 19th century and What's happened in recent years is that really it's been hard to get hold of a yellow gold sovereign. It's been more of the rose gold that has been out there.

27:36Georgie Frost: Why? I think it's just the way the kind of market has been. I don't think there's like a real explanation to it.

27:44Lee Boyce: I don't like rose gold. You don't? No. I prefer a yellow gold.

27:49Georgie Frost: It looks more historic. It looks more kind of, you know, exciting. And actually, they've come back and bought this coin out with quite a lot of security features on it as well. So you know that this is a genuine thing. And you pointed out the price, Georgie, you know,£1 ,200 for a piece of gold that's probably worth more like£700,£800. But you've got to, you know, the amount of gold that's in it, but you've got to remember the craftsmanship of it, you know, these security features. And actually, I've just had a look on the website and it already sold out. Wow. 3 ,000. Security features? Security features make sure that it's legit.

28:24Georgie Frost: And there's three cutting edge ones on this, which is a micro text, a latent security image, and secure background patterns, which make it very difficult to dupe, make it very difficult to fake. As I say, 3 ,000 of them are gone. There are still options on the website. Some of it is already sold out. There's a four coin set,£4 ,395. It's showing up as currently reserved. um and then there's the 9 950 set which five coins limited editions of 500 says available to order but then there's the sovereign three centuries of king set 3595 pounds out of stock so then they launched literally two days ago wow it shows you gold gold has just become a real fixation for investors and it won't just be uk buyers you know i know for it for example Germany they're massive for their gold coins and bullion and sovereign so I wouldn't be surprised you know if it's gone to a real range of international buyers but an interesting move by the Mint and I wouldn't be surprised to see more of this kind of thing coming.

29:32Lee Boyce: A good one as well seems to have done pretty well. Helen just tell us a little bit about what's going on with gold at the moment talk about it a lot it's in making a lot of headlines.

29:41Helen Crane: Yeah we really do and the price has really surged this year and that's because of this as we've been talking about and as we talk about all the time this kind of turbulent financial landscape that we're in all this uncertainty um you know job losses inflation uh budget it's you know it's hugely uncertain time and when things are uncertain people do turn to gold and other physical assets i mean it's kind of the equivalent of like stuffing cash under your mattress right it's something that you have Physically, you can hold, it holds its value quite well. You know, people always know what gold, gold is always worth something, you know, unless the world absolutely kind of goes down the toilet and we're all just like living in bunkers.

30:26Helen Crane: Gold is always worth something. So people are kind of flooding into this and this has driven up the price. And as we, I think we're going to talk about in a minute, even silver is also going up. So people are really scrambling towards these very, very safe assets. And then also, as we talked about before, you know, if things like having cash in savings maybe isn't going to be as much of a kind of good bet, if things like the Isra and Answers slash rates go down, you know, buy some gold. A lot of people have it as a just a part of their portfolio to kind of diversify and have something that's quite a quite a safe bet.

31:03Helen Crane: So I think that's part of the reason why the Royal Mint has done this. you know it is partly this history and this commemorative aspect of it but actually there is a really big kind of demand for gold at the minute and they're yes all looking to take advantage.

31:19Lee Boyce: Daft question Lee perhaps but I went into a duel the other day thinking about getting a gold ring a family thing and they said oh gold prices are really high at the moment this would have been 300 pounds cheaper had you bought it this time last year. I asked the question they didn't just tell me that as if to say how great sales look at you i know i did ask i was like oh this is really interesting is he it wasn't going to be that expensive but let's say you wanted to spend you know a few grand or something on a ring you know people ask all the time what's the best way to invest in gold is that a way to invest in gold they're literally just buying the stuff and

31:55Georgie Frost: wearing it yeah definitely well the thing is you know it's a hardy metal it's not like something that's going to wear down or you're going to kind of like destroy i mean you might lose it uh yeah but i mean there is that you know as long as it's you know carotid and you know it's legit and you've got the hallmarks and things in there yeah of course you know that's how a lot of people do have it rattling around in their homes without kind of realizing it um and other ways to get into i mean the raw mint has gone absolutely massive into it uh in recent years the the bullion sales is really where it's making a lot of its money and it's hit it at the right time because it's And it's made it more accessible to people as well, George would say.

32:34Georgie Frost: It's made it, you know, they have vaults, you know, of course it costs money, but, you know, there's an easier way in. And at the moment, it has been on an absolute roaring run. You know, gold is up 35 % in six months. But as you just pointed out there, silver is actually up 65%, although it's nowhere near as valuable as gold.

32:57Lee Boyce: Well, yeah, it's interesting, isn't it, silver? is sort of, what do they call it, the red-headed stepchild? Isn't that what the Americans call it, of gold? Ignored, undervalued, dismissed for decades. But actually, Dan Hatfield, who is your valuation expert, reckons that silver's rise over the next decade will be the biggest commodity shock of all, which leads to the question, do we raid our cabinets and jewellery boxes and sell now, or do we hold on to our silver? I don't think I've got any silver,

33:28Georgie Frost: but if you did have any what should you be doing with it yeah it's really great piece here dan he's really gone to town with us he's a pawnbroker so he lives and breathes this stuff he's and i think he's a fourth generation pawnbroker so it goes with family and he actually describes silver as the difficult little brother uh or to gold which i quite liked um and i think a lot of us we do think of silver we think of the family silver gonna sell the family and it's like spoons and things like that and as he points out in this uh piece that he wrote for us he says always struggled with his identity you know is it a precious metal is it an industrial metal is it a hedge against inflation is it a commodity you know is it all of those things um and i think that it's it's kind of not had the same you know shine as what gold has had but as he points out in here you know it's one of the most important materials in the modern world it's powering a lot of the technology that we use and it seems that supply is shrinking demand is rising and that's only going to result is going to mean one thing is it a good time to go and raid around your drawers and cupboards and find all of your silver and go and sell it well it's up 65 i mean it's not a bad time in six months is it but it just depends what you've got and whether it's heirlooms and things that you want to you know keep hold of um and also if it is things like jewelry you know again it's about the craftsmanship of it as well and and you know it might actually be worth more because of the way it's been made or rather than it being you know the actual per ounce scrap value of something so i think it's interesting silver silver in our comment section always gets quite a big mention from people when we write about gold and say you know i've gone into silver or you know you should also put silver into your portfolio if you're holding gold i mean danny himself says if you if you have broken or unwanted silver this is an excellent time to cash in prices are strong demand is strong the market wants silver but if you're holding pieces as a long-term hedge as a case for keeping them and he's saying that structural forces behind silver's upward trend aren't short-term fads and they look set to continue he he's quite confident he feels confident in where silver's going well where's the best place to cash it in do you go to pawnbroker

35:47Lee Boyce: because i heard that they don't give you good rates do you take it to a jeweler's is there

35:51Georgie Frost: another special place you can go that i don't know the key is to shop around georgia making right and also to know kind of roughly in your head what spot prices are for silver because you don't want to go in and get ripped off and i'd be honest i think that independent pawnbroker is probably going to be a little bit of a better bet than some of the bigger high street names but that's not to say that some of the big high street names are also not offering fair prices you just got to go with a little bit of now a little bit of research and a whole bag of confidence all right

36:23Lee Boyce: finally helen look i don't have kids but i know not to travel during school holiday times because things can get rather expensive but i have to say i was a bit surprised at the title of your article family quoted£20 ,000 for four tickets to Dubai. I wouldn't spend£20 ,000 going to Dubai. In half term, one way after, it goes on, BA cancelled their flight. There's a lot in that one sentence, isn't there, to be outraged about. You're going to have to break that down for us, Helen. £20 ,000, four tickets, one way, BA cancelled their flight.

37:05Helen Crane: it's a really shocking headline isn't it look we all know that going on holiday during school holidays is much more expensive but this absolutely takes the biscuit so this is a reader that wrote him um he was on his way with his wife and uh his kids to Dubai they uh nine hours before they're due to take off on their BA flight they get an email to say their flight has been cancelled so So when this happens, your airline is supposed to place you on an alternative flight. And if they can't do that on their own airline, they're supposed to sort you a flight on a different airline. And so they did that.

37:46Helen Crane: But these flights weren't really convenient. They were actually extremely unconvenient. So this flight would mean that instead of arriving in Dubai just before midnight, it left Heathrow in the evening. So they'd get to Dubai the next morning. They'd miss a night in the hotel that they'd already paid for. So not, you know, with a small child in tow as well, I imagine that would just be a complete nightmare. So they decided to look at some alternative flights. Now, they're real loyal BA customers, as a lot of people are. They've got a silver membership. So they decided to look for another BA flight, but they couldn't find one.

38:25Helen Crane: so they do a search and they find some flights leaving just an hour later than their original flight was supposed to go um but they're with emirates now that's okay because under this rule um ba should place them on an alternative flight so he goes on to these flights and four one-way tickets uh were around six thousand pounds so this reader thinks oh you know that's really expensive but i think i should be able to get my money back from ba so decides to put it on his credit card clicks through on the website and emirates pops up a message saying the airline has increased the price by 14 048 pounds 99 pence um so about 20 000 pounds for four tickets which is absolutely incredible and you know we all know that airline websites are quite tricky with their you know you've got x amount of time to put this in your basket and then it goes up but that's just I've never seen that.

39:22Lee Boyce: That's unbelievable.

39:23Helen Crane: No, I know. It's absolutely outrageous. So we got in touch to ask Emirates why this was able to happen. Obviously, in the end, the family did not buy the£20 ,000 tickets for four people. They accepted that initial flight where they lost a night in the hotel annoyingly, but, you know, saved them obviously thousands and thousands of pounds. But when we asked Emirates why the price was able to go up so much, It said that fares vary depending on the seats and classes available. Once a class sells out, the system will display the next available option, which may be more expensive. Well, yeah, it was quite a lot more expensive.

40:01Helen Crane: So it looks like perhaps what has happened was that during the booking process, the class of seats that they'd booked sold out. But I mean, has it or is this just a tricky little airline ruse? Oh, no. Oh, dear. It's gone up by£14 ,000. I mean, it just shows that, you know, when you're booking flights that are so when you're when you're booking so close to the time you're taking off, they know that you're absolutely desperate. And they'll just whack it up and hope that people will pay for it. I mean, hoping that people would pay an extra 14 grand is like, how often does that work? I mean, I guess it works sometimes, maybe if people are going to Dubai, but surely not often.

40:40Helen Crane: It's just absolutely outrageous. I mean, yeah, really feel for this man and, you know, stuck at the airport with these young kids. And yeah, just sounds like an absolute nightmare. I'm certainly not going to try and go on holiday during half term anytime soon.

40:54Lee Boyce: I mean, it seems to be quite a bad sales tactic because, you know, maybe a grand or two, then maybe you would sort of upsell and buy it. But 14 grand just seems a bit silly, to be honest. Did they get any sort of compensation for losing that night in the hotel?

41:09Helen Crane: or yeah so um they're in the sort of compensation process and i think they should get about two thousand pounds for the inconvenience of the sort of rearranged flight and a conversation with airlines is based on normally on the amount of time you've been delayed and so they were delayed about 10 hours and and the fact it was cancelled with less than seven days notice um but compensation as well so should get about two thousand pounds so all right but still doesn't really make up for all the all the massive inconvenience and you know we don't know how much they pay for the hotel either so it's a great situation lee i just think it's a horrible situation as being you know it's

41:50Georgie Frost: bad enough if it's just you or you and your partner but when you've got children as we've said on this podcast before flight time is everything and it can be the difference between your child sleeping on a flight or behaving on a flight and them being an absolute little menace and actually having to do a connecting flight and all that kind of stuff with this rearranged flight just just not good whatsoever and i should point out here that adam's a friend of mine and actually he messaged me while i was on my own half-term holiday having just arrived at destination via ba uh i was like i don't need to know this i don't need to know this but he was what's up with me his dramas uh about how this was um how this was unfolding so he obviously sent him over to helen and to be crane on the case uh to see if she could help um and then ended up actually being in the paper uh because i i think it's um absolute it's a two it's a two-pronged thing really isn't it like the last minute cancellation just really isn't on and you know it's really difficult because if the return flight isn't cancelled and your accommodation isn't sort of flexible you know you can end up being quite a bit out of pocket and then the second bit of it is the dynamic kind of pricing element to this Emirates flight.

43:02Georgie Frost: And seeing a price and thinking actually, well, that should work and I should be able to then claim on that, to then get through to that kind of fight. It's like Oasis all over again. You get to that final little bit of screen and the price has all of a sudden gone up absolutely hugely. I just think it hasn't made either company look particularly good.

43:25Lee Boyce: We shouldn't have been having this conversation, though, about six hours before i'm about to get a ba flight wish me luck everybody wish me luck right

43:34Georgie Frost: on the way back from our ba ba flight at half term over christmas at the time over christmas over half term um and it was a night flight my eldest daughter who actually she turned seven this weekend she was struggling to get comfortable in the seat and she stood up in the aisle and she She said, next time, Daddy, you're flying us private. And I was like, oh, my word. Why is she saying this? How does she know what a private jet is? And people were looking at us like we were completely bonkers. And then luckily, big snobbly, she went on the set. We're flying BA Economy, mate. We're not big time rollers.

44:11Georgie Frost: The next thing I looked to you, you'd put the blanket over her entire head and body and was asleep. um so you know from private jet to using that horrible material ba thing over her head in economy because the seat she just can't get comfortable where she's got a little bit taller

44:28Lee Boyce: uh it just it made me it made me giggle how old is she lee she's seven on sunday she's seven yeah wait wait till she gets about 17 and she thinks it's uncomfortable now right that is it you can keep up to date with all the latest breaking money news just go to thisismoney.co.uk or download the app and if you have any comments or questions for the team or

44:48Georgie Frost: anything you'd like them to look into lee yeah you can email us at podcast at thisismoney.co.uk and you can comment in the comment section of where this podcast will live and you can also

44:58Lee Boyce: x us at thisismoney and also a big shout out if you want to come up to me on the tube and say to me hi are you georgie frost or helen crane i mean you can call me helen crane i don't mind lee voice might be a bit funny but if you want to come up to us and say hello please do yeah most welcome i'm sorry i didn't get the name of the person who did that after the england football match um but hello thank you very much for coming to speak to me if you like our podcast why not rate us wherever you found us it helps other people find us too