Andrew and Epstein: How will the royals respond?

0:02Rhiannon Mills:Sky News, the full story first.

0:09Rhiannon Mills:Coming up, the latest from the Epstein files. Will Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor now finally agree to be questioned in America? Hello, Nish Kumar here.

0:20Niall:And Coco Khan.

0:21Rhiannon Mills:We're dropping in from Pod Save the UK, your weekly fix of political news from a staunchly progressive perspective. We ask the big questions like, how can the left find common ground? Has reform peaked? And can we fight back against tech billionaires?

0:33Niall:And there's always time for the little questions too, like, Nish, what is your woke sandwich filling of choice?

0:38Rhiannon Mills:Gotta be something vegan. Whatever the opposite of a beef sandwich covered in petrol is.

0:43Niall:Listen to Pod Save the UK every Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts.

0:52Rhiannon Mills:There is so, so much about the Jeffrey Epstein story that I find almost unbelievable. Not least that so many of the so-called great and good continued their relationship with him after he'd been sent to jail the first time for soliciting sex with an underage girl. So imagine how the King must have felt on seeing the latest from the Epstein files.

1:13Niall:Andrew's spiralling downfall is a never-ending embarrassment for the royal family.

1:19Rhiannon Mills:Emails and photos emerged over the weekend that can't easily be explained away.

1:24Niall:Three images appearing to show him on all fours over a woman lying on the floor.

1:30Rhiannon Mills:Neither Andrew nor the King seem minded to provide any explanation. We are yet to hear from them. But what we've learned lays bare the depth and length of the former Duke's relationship with the convicted sex offender.

1:43Niall:It really underpins the fact that Epstein had made himself invaluable to Andrew, whether it was contacts with women or whether it was business contacts or whether it was money.

1:56Rhiannon Mills:King Charles was out at his local park run at the weekend, not participating, I hasten to add, but surely pondering if removing Andrew's titles and kicking him out of the 30-room mansion, the Royal Lodge, will be enough to distance the family from these latest revelations. Rhiannon Mills is Sky's royal correspondent. Rhiannon, let's start with the king. Over the weekend, he was pictured out and about at Sandring, impressing the flesh, whilst you and others were trying to find out what was contained in these files. I mean, how are the royals going to be feeling right now?

2:26Niall:It was interesting to see the tone of the message that we had from the communications team, basically saying, here's some nice pictures of the king out at the park run when basically we know that you are all talking about something completely different. Look, there is no doubt that when you look at the amount of emails and those photographs of Andrew on all fours over a woman, it has been a really hard weekend for him and for the royal family. I think the one thing that we can probably say for certain is that they will be relieved that the King took the action that he did in October, November last year, stripping Andrew of everything when it came to his titles, his public profile and his residence and leaving him simply as Andrew Mountbatten Windsor.

3:15Niall:they can't now be accused of turning a blind eye to it not doing enough and I think in some ways that's the difficult thing is is what more can the royal family do I don't personally see this as being one where the king would be able to speak openly about this not least because I suspect he feels whatever lapse of judgment Andrew has had whatever he has done there is a duty of care amongst the family in terms of someone who's in that family. It's that difficult balance, isn't it, again, between the institution and the family.

3:49Rhiannon Mills:So you mentioned photos there, and there is obviously the one that we've had in the past, that photo of Andrew with his arm around Virginia Dufresne. These new images, be specific, what do we see?

4:00Niall:I suspect I'm not the only person who was utterly surprised and shocked to see images like this. to see the King's brother on all fours over a woman who is lying on the floor is unbelievable. It's an unbelievable image. And we know that these documents and photos have been heavily redacted. And these are not good redactions for Andrew when it comes to this photo, because we can't see the reaction of the woman on the floor. So we're then left to kind of try and imagine what is going on. Now, no suggestion of any wrongdoing. And also the problem is we don't have a date for these photos either. But what we have been able to do, our data and forensics team, who are very clever, they have been trying to look at different details within the room to try and identify exactly where this photo was taken to at least give us some more information.

4:51Niall:And what they've done is they've seen that there's distinctive white panelling in that room, quite distinctive features on the doors, and have managed to cross-check that with some other photos. One photo that includes Epstein talking to the director at Woody Allen, but also some other more generic pictures that were taken inside Epstein's New York apartment. So it places Andrew right there in Epstein's apartment. The thing is, for all of us, though, we don't know exactly when these photos were taken or what is going on in them.

5:20Rhiannon Mills:Given we don't know the specific date, Rhiannon, it's probably a good idea for you to run us again through the chronology because we have Andrew on record stating that contact between him and Epstein ceased on a particular date. Just remind us the kind of the chronology of their relationship?

5:34Niall:Look, this is why for me it was so important to look at the dates that the emails were written. Yes, what's said in them is fascinating, but the dates just say so much to us. So Andrew at first said that he was introduced to Epstein via Ghislaine Maxwell back in 1999. It was then in the summer of 2008 that Jeffrey Epstein actually pleaded guilty to those sex offences, including prostituting victims who were under 18. He was then in jail until the summer of 2009 and then under some form of house arrest until 2010. Now in December 2010 Andrew was pictured alongside him in Central Park in New York and when he was questioned about that in 2019 in the Newsnight interview he said the reason he was meeting up with Epstein was because he was honourably cutting off that relationship.

6:28Niall:However throughout the weekend there has been this constant flow of emails that we've had within these documents which basically place Andrew and Sarah Ferguson still very firmly within Epstein's circles communicating with him on a whole range of different things well after that 2010 date when Andrew says that he'd cut ties.

6:49Rhiannon Mills:Take us through Andrew's emails first. What leaps out to you from their contents?

6:54Niall:I think what is fascinating is that for me it really underpins the fact that Epstein had made himself invaluable to Andrew on a whole number of different things. So whether it was contacts with women, or whether it was business contacts, or whether it was money. But also, as I said, those timings, the fact that, for example, we had Andrew arranging a call on Christmas Eve in 2010 with Epstein. He'd said that earlier in the month, he'd met up to call off that relationship. Also, February 2011, there's a whole stream of emails where it appears that Epstein is potentially helping Andrew and Sarah with money.

7:37Niall:So I think it just really helps to build up that picture of how close the two men were. But also, I think what will be really difficult for the victims is just how obsequious the language is towards Epstein, despite the fact that this is a man who was a convicted paedophile.

7:54Rhiannon Mills:Other emails as well, which I think will certainly trigger interest. There appears to be a conversation where Epstein is attempting to introduce someone to Andrew.

8:03Niall:Yes, and this is a Russian woman called Irena. And also people have cross-checked that with other emails with other men that Epstein was linked to. And her name also has come up in the past as well. And it gives us that kind of wider picture as to whether Epstein was helping to introduced Andrew to other women. Also in some of the emails to Ghislaine Maxwell, again, they talk about spending time in the company of redheads, for example. So it again builds up that picture of what was that contact and why was it so important to Andrew to have that link with Epstein? And it seems that some of that was to be introduced to certain women.

8:46Rhiannon Mills:This is clearly a friendship between the two individuals. Whatever underpins it, we may never know. But at one point, Geoffrey Epstein is being offered a fairly open invite to come to dinner at Buckingham Palace.

9:00Niall:That, I think, is one of the more shocking things. We know that he spent time at various parties. We've seen other pictures in the past about him spending time at Windsor, for example. But the fact that it seemed that it was this open door and that Andrew and Sarah Ferguson wanted to please Epstein. They wanted him to feel really part of their group. They wanted to really welcome him into that royal fold, at least their side of it, I think is what some people will find particularly shocking, saying, do you want to come to Buckingham Palace? And Jeffrey Epstein, of course, says, yeah, I'll be there.

9:34Rhiannon Mills:In terms of the allegations that are specific to Andrew, there has also been reporting that another woman, very like Virginia Giuffre, has suggested that she may well have been trafficked to London for purposes involving the then prince.

9:47Niall:Yes, there are reports that this woman was brought from Russia to spend time at Royal Lodge with Andrew and then also that she was taken for tea at Buckingham Palace. And all of this just again builds up just a difficult picture for Andrew. We have to say we have approached him and his team. There has been no response and he has always vehemently denied any allegations against him. But what this does do is open up more questions for him and potentially open up the prospect of a private prosecution coming from this woman from America in terms of trying to gain some form of compensation. And that is the really difficult thing about this whole story for Andrew and the royal family is it just has, again, opened up more avenues where he could potentially face more questions about what he was doing, but also what he knew about Epstein.

10:50Rhiannon Mills:And if you thought that Andrew's relationship with Epstein was uncomfortably close, you know, here comes Sarah Ferguson shouting, hold my beer. Take me through the emails that Fergie wrote to him. I mean, the tone in them is quite something.

11:03Niall:One thing I think I need to say is I think what the emails between him and Sarah Ferguson really show us is, yeah, OK, we focus on this as a sex scandal and that inevitably gets a lot of attention. But I think what the emails have helped to further cement really in my mind is that this potentially is just as much a financial scandal in terms of the interactions between Andrew, Sarah and Epstein and the flow of money that was going on. Looking at the emails from Sarah Ferguson, again, I think it underpins how much he was welcomed into the family fold. The fact that the emails talk about not just her relationship with Epstein, but also Epstein potentially spending time with their daughters, Beatrice and Eugenie.

11:47Niall:Also that she says, oh, you're like the brother that I never had. Another one of them says, marry me. She could not be any nicer to him. and this kind of again flies in the face of what she has previously said, which was I was doing everything I could to cut relationships with him.

12:07Rhiannon Mills:OK, the tone of the emails is one thing. You're my steadfast, generous and supreme friend, the brother I've always wished for. I mean, specifically, what was she after?

12:16Niall:By the sounds of it, she saw him as vital for building up her business interests. There's one email that I saw over the weekend where she's just delighted because she's obviously had this meeting with somebody and they've seemed so interested in these various different aspects of what you could describe as Sarah Ferguson, PLC. And she cannot be more grateful to Epstein for setting up some kind of meeting. So it was the business contact side as much as actually being given money by him. Again, though, I think what's important about it is it shows the closeness and therefore what did they know about Epstein and what he was doing.

12:57If they spent time in his company, did they not at times think something was slightly awry?

13:03Niall:And that is why for both Andrew and Sarah, there is just going to be this clamour for them to come forward, if nothing else, as witnesses to say what they saw when they were in Epstein's circle.

13:18Rhiannon Mills:I mean, they sent photos of their daughters to this man. In fact, at one point, didn't Sarah Ferguson engage in some probably uncomfortable candour about what one of her girls was up to?

13:28Niall:Yeah, I think she described one of her daughters as being away on a shagging weekend. Now, would you really use that language to a man who in 2008 admitted prostituting under 18s? It does beg a belief. But all I can point to is we've not heard so far from Sarah Ferguson or any of her representatives. and all we can really point back to at the moment is the fact that she said that she was potentially going to be blackmailed by this man but you are right they are really uncomfortable reading these emails. For me though what this weekend has done is it's given us a level of insight that we never thought that we'd get.