Are the police getting it right on rogue officers?

0:00Martin Brunt:How does a banana trigger a CIA-backed coup? Do AirPods herald the arrival of a new global order? What do LED lights say about the future of humanity? I'm Ed Conway, and in each episode of my new podcast, Stuff Matters, I take an object, crack it open, and reveal the world-shaping forces hidden inside. This is economics told through the things we think we understand.

0:25Jamie Klingler:Search Stuff Matters on your podcast app to listen and follow. Coming up on the Sky News Daily, more than 730 police officers sacked and banned from ever returning to the thin blue line. So, is this evidence that the service is beyond repair or finally putting its house in order?

0:44Martin Brunt:How does a banana trigger a CIA-backed coup? Do AirPods herald the arrival of a new global order? What do LED lights say about the future of humanity? I'm Ed Conway and in each episode of my new podcast Stuff Matters I take an object, crack it open and reveal the world-shaping forces hidden inside. This is economics told through the things we think we understand. Search Stuff Matters on your podcast app to listen and follow. We now have no mechanism to rid the meta officers who are not fit to hold vetting. those who cannot be trusted to work with women or those who cannot be trusted to enter the homes of vulnerable people.

1:29Martin Brunt:It is absolutely absurd that we cannot lawfully sack them. This would not be the case in other sectors where staff have nothing like the powers comparable to police officers.

1:40Jamie Klingler:So Mark Rowley, Chief Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police saying out loud that which many have long thought that there are more than a few bad apples and it is far too difficult to get rid of them. And to an extent, that's been backed up by data out on Tuesday from the College of Policing. 735 officers in England and Wales dismissed and barred from ever returning to the service in the year to the end of March. The reasons, well, they range from dishonesty and unlawful disclosure of information to domestic abuse, drugs, even child sexual offences. And those behind the data say the number could continue to rise in the next few years.

2:19Jamie Klingler:So what does this tell us about the current state of policing? Well, later, I'll be speaking to the co-founder of Reclaim These Streets, which sued the Met after they banned a vigil for Sarah Everard, who was, of course, murdered by Met Constable Wayne Cousins. But let's start with our crime correspondent, Martin Brunt. Martin, this data from the College of Policing, what have we learnt?

2:42Martin Brunt:Well, we learnt that more and more police officers are being fired from their forces. The previous year it was 573. This year it's 735. And as I said, I don't think there's much surprise because very publicly police forces, and particularly the Metropolitan Police Force, by far the biggest in the country, has made it very clear that they are embarked on a mission to improve standards and culture in the police force. Do we know why these officers have been dismissed? The most common reasons were for dishonesty in a descending scale, discriminatory behaviour, unlawful access or disclosure of information, inappropriate communications, and sexual offences.

3:36Martin Brunt:Now, there were 72 officers and staff dismissed for what's described as sexual offences or misconduct. But within that figure of 72 are 21 who were dismissed for child sex offences.

3:51Jamie Klingler:We know that there is a regional breakdown. You can go to the website and find out how your own police force has been doing. Are there any forces for which there is particular concern?

4:01Martin Brunt:Well, I suppose, as expected, it's the Metropolitan Police that has by far the biggest figures, but of course it's by far the biggest force. I don't think there are any great surprises. And in fact, Neil, in almost all cases, with a few exceptions, the rise has gone up and has generally gone up in the past five years. So Mark Rowley is on record as saying that he thinks that

4:28Jamie Klingler:the process by which you get bent coppers out of the force, it isn't fit for purpose. So what is that disciplinary process, Martin, and what on earth is wrong with it?

4:38Martin Brunt:Well, it's changing. I mean, he made a big fuss, didn't he, a couple of years ago, saying that he simply couldn't get rid of bad officers. He found that extraordinary. And he said he was frustrated by the police disciplinary process, which begins with complaints to the Independent Office of Police complaints. Generally, he was saying that the system was weighted in favour of the officers. So even where there were major rulings against them, officers were still managing through appeals and so on to hang on to their jobs. So it needed new laws to change that police disciplinary process. But it has changed.

5:22Martin Brunt:And I think there is genuinely a feeling. The pendulum has swung back towards the chief officers, chief constables and Commissioner Light, Sir Mark Rowley, who want to get rid of officers who fail the disciplinary process. I'll give you an example of one of the changes. If you're convicted of a crime now as a police officer, you're automatically subject to a gross misconduct hearing separately. There are historically cases of officers who've, when they've been subjected to disciplinary processes or been told that they face them, then simply retire or resign. Now, under the new system, there's an accelerated process for dealing with those officers who are trying to get around the system.

6:11Martin Brunt:So there are changes. And I think if Sir Mark Rowley were here, he would say that he is finding it easier to get rid of the officers that he wants to.

6:21Jamie Klingler:What does the data tell us then, Martin, about both the vetting process for people who wish to become police officers and the culture within the police force? From my perspective, looking at these numbers, it does seem as if people with racist or sexist views are actively wanting a career in the police force for whatever reason.

6:43Martin Brunt:Well, the vetting system has changed in the last three years. The vetting procedure has been tightened up. And there's, of course, been a huge effort put into re-vetting. So a lot of officers who it was found were serving with criminal convictions or where there have been a pattern of complaints about their behaviour made but not acted on. And all of those were subject to a re-getting process. And where they failed that, they too have been sacked. The College of Policing will say that all these new measures that have been put in place, this whole change of culture and standards is working. But at the same time, chief officers, and I think Sir Mark has acknowledged this, that there will always be rogue officers.

7:36Martin Brunt:But one of the big drives amongst police chiefs has been to open up the whistleblowing system. A big part of the culture change that police officers are arguing for is that colleagues shouldn't be cowed from calling out their colleagues when they see bad behaviour.

7:58Jamie Klingler:We've had any number of investigations, reviews into the state of policing, including, of course, you know, that from Dame Louise Casey. Has it just not had any effect?

8:10Martin Brunt:I mean, the issues around the recent exposure on the BBC's panorama of that appalling behaviour by some officers at Charing Cross, you have to think, well, it certainly didn't have an effect there. But perhaps there are pockets of rogue police teams. I mean, I wouldn't suggest for a moment that Charing Cross police station was typical of other police stations, and I'm sure it isn't around London. I think lessons have been learned from Louise Casey and certainly there's been a huge publicity drive. I mean, nobody can be unaware who watches the news that police chiefs are hell bent on improving standards and culture.

8:52Martin Brunt:But again, nobody said it was going to happen overnight.

8:55Jamie Klingler:Martin, I think this is perhaps the most significant question arising from the data from the College of Policing. Do you see it as evidence that the service is beyond repair or that it is finally truly attempting to put its house in order?

9:11Martin Brunt:I think it's trying to put its house in order. If you look at the figures for most police forces, over the last five years, the number of sacked officers is rising. And there are very few where it's going in the opposite direction. I don't think that policing is beyond repair. It would be a terrible indictment if anybody thought that. I think what's going on at the moment is going on in the right direction. And nobody said it was going to be a quick fix or it was going to be fixed overnight. It's going to take a very long time for culture and standards to get to a level that people will find more acceptable.

9:52Martin Brunt:We've talked before, haven't we, about the low public esteem police officers are held in. I'd like to think that the next survey might show that perhaps people are looking at police officers with a bit more respect than they have in the past few years.

10:09Jamie Klingler:Martin, thank you. OK, so what of those who've been critical of the way we are policed? What do they make of the data? Jamie Klingler is co-founder of Reclaim These Streets, a campaigning group that focuses on crimes against women. She successfully sued the Mets after they banned a vigil for Sarah Everard, murdered back in 2021 by Met Constable Wayne Cousins. You've seen the report. What do you make of it?

10:31Niall:I think any aspects that encourage transparency are great, but I just want more. I want to have the actual data. I want to be able to dig in. I want to know how many people were accused. I want to know how many of them resulted in gross misconduct. I want the details so that we can come to our own conclusions. I really want to know, I want to dive down into what does the barred list mean? Is it for five years? Because that's what it used to be. Is it for lifetime barring? I want to really know the details. And forgive me if I do not trust the press teams of these organizations.

11:02Jamie Klingler:There was an awful lot of detail in there. So I just want to try and dig in slightly. What is the purpose of that level of granularity that you're asking for?

11:10Niall:Because I want to know how many officers have been accused of sexual abuse and use of power. I want to know specifically how many women have reported, how many times have they been no more action given, or have they said that it was just regular misconduct or gross misconduct. And in Baroness Casey's interim report, just about inner misconduct within police force of the Met, she was saying it takes three to four years and that there's no definition of gross misconduct. There's no definition of misconduct. So we can throw these terms about, we can say, oh, 20 % more people are being sacked. But if it was two people two years ago and three people last year, the percentages don't do me any good.

11:48Jamie Klingler:So in your view then, the disciplinary processes that exist within the police in England and Wales at the moment are not fit for purpose?

11:55Niall:They're not fit for purpose and they are not the least bit transparent. There's all kinds of instances where the police officers that have committed gross misconduct and been removed from the force are still granted anonymity so that for their families and for their embarrassment. But that doesn't do any good if I'm then hiring them to be my training coach or I'm getting their services off of LinkedIn and they're protected and their reputations are protected, but my safety is not.

12:22Jamie Klingler:You will know as well as anyone, though, that the chief constable of the Metropolitan Police himself has said, look, these disciplinary processes are such that there are officers that I want to get rid of right this moment, and I just can't do so. So what needs to change and who needs to change it?

12:36Niall:Well, this is the thing. In all of these processes, we're given these three-pronged forces where it's, oh no, it's CPS's fault, it's CJS's fault, it's the police department's fault. And everyone, depending on who's giving you the report, just points at another body, a governing body. The IOPC does not offer the transparency that I've wanted. And IOPC is supposed to be policing the police and the watchdog of the police. And that's been deemed ineffectual for years and years. And so although I promote and I'm glad that they're trying to be more transparent, what I want to know is what are the charges?

13:10Niall:How many of them? What is the percentage of them being found guilty? What is the punishment and what are their names? I think if we had actual transparency of all of these reports and if women felt empowered to report, these numbers would be seven or eight times what they're being reported right now.

13:26Jamie Klingler:So do you see what has been published today as evidence of institutional sexism and all the rest of it within the police? Or is this a moment where it becomes apparent that the police are trying to put their house in order?

13:40Niall:I think the efforts are much more to keep these type of things off of the headlines than to actually do the deep reform that's needed. I do not think we have at all rooted out what the actual cultural misogyny, systemic racism, systemic homophobia and ableism that is in our public services. And the problem I see is the bar to get that access to me at my most vulnerable is higher. And yet they're not willing to or forced to be accountable in the same way that you or I would be if we assaulted a police officer. Rightly so. If we hurt someone that is there to serve us and if we violate that bond, we pay a higher price because they are a police officer.

14:25Niall:In the same way, if they violate their bond to me to protect and serve, they need to pay a higher price.

14:31Jamie Klingler:It strikes me, Jamie, that you have lost faith. You have lost trust in police in this country. I am less likely.

14:39Niall:Sorry, I'm less likely to report a sexual assault now than I was five years ago when Sarah Everard was killed. Because I know that my phone will get taken. I know that my my therapy records have that taken. And I know there's a one point seven percent chance somebody would be found guilty. And that's not me saying I don't want women to report. That's me saying that I used to think the grownups were in charge and I used to think they had my best interest and my safety at heart. And what has been exposed by the Casey Review, by the Angelini Review, and by doing this work is that it's nowhere, nowhere close.

15:11Niall:Mark Rowley still hasn't met with anybody from Reclaim. We keep being told that we're just too loud, too noisy, that we were naive young women that meant well, is what Cressida Dick called us to the Home Affairs Committee. Well, this naive young woman had her eyes open, and I have certainly not seen the action that needs to be taken. I see a lot of headlines. I see a lot of people doing a dog and pony show when something like Panorama happens. I don't see taking Casey Review, especially the interim report, and going line by line and making it better. And they know how to do it, but they keep cutting the funds for it, and they keep not actually instigating the change that needs to happen.

15:46Jamie Klingler:Jamie Klingler, great to talk to you. Thanks for your time. In response to the new figures the Director of Operational Standards at the College of Policing Assistant Chief Constable Tom Harding said this The figures show a determined and robust effort from police forces to rid policing of officers whose behaviour falls below the high standards that we and the public expect from them The public can have confidence that their police forces are quickly identifying and dealing with unacceptable behaviour from officers and staff who, through being on the barred list will never work in policing again.

16:19Jamie Klingler:The statement concludes, our policing system is built on upholding our code of ethics, on courage, respect and empathy and public service. And there is no place in our police service for anyone whose behaviour goes against these values. My thanks to Jamie, to Martin, and of course to you for listening. The Daily's back tomorrow.