Into the 'kill zone': How Ukraine fights a war of the future

0:00Tom Cheshire:How does a banana trigger a CIA-backed coup? Do AirPods herald the arrival of a new global order? What do LED lights say about the future of humanity? I'm Ed Conway, and in each episode of my new podcast, Stuff Matters, I take an object, crack it open, and reveal the world-shaping forces hidden inside. This is economics told through the things we think we understand. Search Stuff Matters on your podcast app to listen and follow. I'm Tom Cheshire and this is the Sky News Daily. Coming up, a terrifying insight into the future of warfare from the Ukrainian front lines in a battlefield dominated by drones.

0:41Tom Cheshire:How does a banana trigger a CIA-backed coup? Do AirPods herald the arrival of a new global order? What do LED lights say about the future of humanity? I'm Ed Conway and in each episode of my new podcast, Stuff Matters, I take an object, crack it open and reveal the world-shaping forces hidden inside. This is economics told through the things we think we understand. Search Stuff Matters on your podcast app to listen and follow.

1:13John Sparks:We're moving at speed. We're going quickly because the Russians have got reconnaissance drones high up above. They're looking for people, looking for logistics, looking for targets. and we have to presume those targets include us.

1:27Tom Cheshire:Sky's international correspondent, John Sparks, spent 24 hours with Ukrainian soldiers struggling to keep the Russians at bay in the Donbass area that Putin has claimed. It's called the kill zone, where soldiers risked their lives in the ruins of abandoned buildings while hunted from the sky by drones. John is back from Ukraine and with us now.

1:48John Sparks:I remember doing a story in 2023 with Ukrainian soldiers and their small FPV drones, first-person view drones, lying them up to have a look at the Russian side of the lines, a couple of them, was all quite amateurish compared to this. Now they've got this control hub, which is really a real-time information hub where they're in contact with drone pilots who sit in a different bunker. They're sitting in a different place, both aerial and ground drones. They're in touch with soldiers in Ukrainian positions in the kill zone. this strip of land that doesn't really exist like a front line, like a trench warfare anymore.

2:27John Sparks:It's different. Soldiers from both sides occupy small positions and they're mixed up with each other. So they're getting information from Ukrainian positions in the field. They're getting information from other troops in other areas. Got all this stuff coming in in real time and then they're having to make decisions, instant decisions. There's no protocol for this stuff. You know, there's no handbook for them to follow. I really doubt they've done any practical training. They're making it up as they go along, I think, because they have to, because this hasn't been done before. They're reacting to completely new situations.

3:02John Sparks:You know, it was visceral while we were there. You know, we turned up, we were there, conducted a short interview with the deputy commander. And then he turned around and said, right, in three minutes, we're launching that tank. it's going to fire against Russian positions in a factory. And I thought to myself, what, that tank on the screen right now, we're watching this, this is live. I mean, I couldn't quite believe it. And that was just the opening chapter in what turned out to be a really intense 24 hours.

3:31Tom Cheshire:That tank commander who comes under fire, when you're watching it and you see the commanders shouting at him, going, go that way, go that way, and they don't have comms, and he's going the other way, and it's absolutely agonising watching that. that terror i mean when you're seeing on the screen it does seem a bit remote but when that tanker man comes out of his tank he is in that front line he is right there in the middle of

3:51John Sparks:that wall all by himself yeah i guess we're used to seeing the clips aren't we on social media of the battlefield of things being destroyed and people running for their lives sometimes they make it sometimes they don't but in this case we're seeing people responsible for their safety react real time to the experiences they are having. And they have an ability to affect the outcome. And we saw through the adaptability of drones, didn't we? You know, they can be used as loudspeakers, for example. Record a message, broadcast it out, get people in the field to follow it. I mean, they're highly adaptable pieces of kit.

4:30John Sparks:So they've got, the people in the control room have got an ability to affect the situation. But I also felt frequently through our 24 hours that they are, for the most part, they're sort of powerless. They can see what's happening and they can try to help. But ultimately, they can't do it themselves because they're not in the field. And that can be very frustrating for the senior duty officer we saw. The language was pretty blue in there later on when they were trying to effect a rescue. He was very frustrated because he could see what to do, but he had trouble communicating it to his troops in the field.

5:05Tom Cheshire:Those troops in the field, I mean, you spoke to them afterwards.

5:07John Sparks:It was great to be able to meet the tank crew briefly because you don't often get that opportunity when you're covering war zones. I felt for the tank commander, Bender. He had experienced clearly a real-life trauma. His body was shaking, his hands were shaking, I thought uncontrollably. I think that he realized that he'd just got away with it. Honestly, will you get back in a tank again? I don't know. He said, actually, in the interview, you know, when we climbed out of the top of the tank, there were FPV drones. They were flying all over. He said they were flying 360 degrees around us. We were running for our lives.

5:53John Sparks:We could see on the screens that not only were the Russians using drones to try and take them out, they were also firing artillery at them as well. So as they were running, they were, you know, the Russians were trying to take them out with multiple types of weapons. I mean, I don't know how you process that as a human being. They then took shelter in a hole in the ground, would have been a former trench line, you know, dug out. and they're in there and then these two Russian POWs later come along, take shelter in the same hole. These two Russians, they'd been part of the Russian attack on the tank crew.

6:32John Sparks:They'd been shooting at them and then they had to spend the night together. It makes me wonder about the personal dynamics of all that. You've got two guys in a hole who were trying to kill you. You know, now you're captives, now you're enemy. What do you say to them? What do you do with them?

6:47Tom Cheshire:The other bit of this changing nature of warfare was this extraordinary mission to send out a drone that's on the ground, basically a remote controlled car. It's got supplies and its mission was changed at the last minute from delivering those supplies to trying to rescue a Ukrainian soldier. And I think he was five kilometers away, but it didn't feel like that watching it. It's agonizing again.

7:11John Sparks:I think the fact that it took so much time to get to him and then to bring him back says a lot about the reality of the front line, of the kill zone now, where you have groups from both sides occupying positions. They don't necessarily know where each other are. And it's only when they disclose their position, their location to others, that they then come under attack. So they're doing their very best to hide from each other. But that means that you don't know where the enemy is in this kill zone. That's why they were using this ground drone, Termite 1. And they were trying to steer it around all sorts of things, not just enemy positions, but landmines.

7:56John Sparks:They were trying not to give it up to Russian reconnaissance drones as well. And it was agonizing. I mean, it took so long. I mean I thought that I thought the journey was the was the the main obstacle here but it you know proved that proved to be wrong a whole lot of stuff happened after they after they got there

8:15Tom Cheshire:it's really high tech but then things go wrong the whole time you know it's slightly cobbled together in a way it's got a starlink on it Elon Musk's starlink system and there's a cloth to protect it from you know being spotted by drones and that gets caught in the tracks it's that real combination of high tech but also a bit sort of rickety at the same time yes the messy stuff of

8:36John Sparks:life isn't it they came up with a plan obviously they had to do that on the hoof you know you can't drive an armored truck into the kill zone you know you can't fly a helicopter in because they'll get taken out you can't take an ambulance in either they will be destroyed so they've got to come up with completely original organic plans to save their own men. And I think it's worth saying that ultimately, we've spent lots of time talking about all this new kit, new technology, but ultimately the most important thing the Ukrainians have are their men, their personnel, their men and women. I asked the commander while we were there, I said, look, what are you looking for from the UK, from the West?

9:18John Sparks:And he began his answer by saying, you mean other than more people? and then he went on to list a series of drones and other kit that he'd love to have but people they don't have enough they don't have enough people in these these holes these positions in the ground sometimes when they're there they have to spend months out there they're resupplied with with drones aerial drones and ground drones but they're stuck there they're stranded there sometimes for for months and months they have to coordinate when they go to the toilet with the control room. They coordinate when they go to sleep. They coordinate when they poke their heads above to have a look.

9:57John Sparks:It's a hellish existence in a modern hellscape. It's very, very difficult. And a lot of the people doing the fighting are middle-aged men, people my age. And, you know, it's really difficult. Keeping them alive for the Ukrainians is an absolute priority When they're sending them out there, this unit want those guys to believe that they will do anything they possibly can if they're hurt, if they're injured, if they get themselves into trouble. They will do anything to try and get them back. And I think that's key to trying to maintain morale on the Ukrainian side.

10:36Tom Cheshire:That's really interesting. And I was really struck by that because when they lose the tank, they're pretty sanguine about that. It's not ideal, but it's war. I think one of the commanders says. But the extraordinary efforts they go to to rescue that man who is in between life and death, it's not looking good for him at all. And one thing that country can't afford to lose is more men. In terms of that wider strategy, in terms of the wider picture of the war, where do you think Ukraine is? Having spent that time there in terms of their morale, their position, their strategy, what does it look like for them?

11:07John Sparks:I think it's really difficult for them. What we have on the ground is a stalemate. Both sides are deadlocked. Yes, the Russians are making small incremental advances, but they tend to do that at high cost. Interestingly, they've stopped these so-called meat grinder advances where they send hundreds of men hurtling towards one position. They've stopped it because they die. Ukrainian drones will pick them out and they will eliminate them. It was explained to me in an interesting way, the Russians will send one or two soldiers to take a position in the kill zone. If those soldiers survive, they'll do it on foot, possibly on motorcycles.

11:47John Sparks:If they survive, the Russians will send another one or two soldiers to join them. So they do it that way. It's become much more gradual. The advances become slower. But the Russians have this advantage in mass in terms of personnel, equipment, money, resources. And I think that remains a critically important advantage. And I think that points to the fact that Ukraine ultimately haven't solved their really fundamental problem around personnel. You know, they do not conscript young people. I think it's 18 to 25s are not conscripted. And that's one that is just that is too much of a political hot potato for Zelensky to take on.

12:34Tom Cheshire:You spend 24 hours and it really does feel that real-time aspect of it. They're going to keep doing that again and again. Do they just think that's what's going to happen for months, for years to come? Or is there any optimism, any hope?

12:46John Sparks:Their strongest feature is probably their morale. It's also arguably the biggest risk that they lose that, that feeling that binds them together. But they have it and they still have it. what we're entering into the fourth winter of this conflict. They are, certainly in my interactions, in my trips, they are still bound to each other. They're still fighting for a collective purpose, which is the survival of their nation, but also their language, their culture. I mean, they've got that and they've got that over the Russians. I think Russians are, you know, getting paid to fight, essentially. Putin pays them lots of money.

13:28John Sparks:You know, is their heart in it? And you can see it on the battlefield, you know, people giving themselves up and living in Ukrainian positions, as our film shows. I think that's what the Ukrainians have got and have to cling on to at all costs. It's that sense of common purpose.

13:48Tom Cheshire:John, thank you so much for joining us. And you can watch his film. I'd really recommend watching it on the Sky News app or the full length documentary on YouTube and on the channel over the next couple of days. That is all from the Sky News Daily. We'll be back tomorrow.

14:29Tom Cheshire:told through the things we think we understand. Search Stuff Matters on your podcast app to listen and follow.