Is it safe to let out Britain’s most notorious prisoner?

0:02Martin Brunt:Sky News, the full story first.

0:08Niall:Charles Bronson has been behind bars for more than half a century. Is it finally time for Britain's most infamous prisoner to be released?

0:18Martin Brunt:They keep drumming it into the public. I'm a danger. We're all more at danger too.

0:25Niall:Charles Bronson is one of the UK's most notorious prisoners. In total, he's been locked up for over 50 years, most of it in solitary confinement.

0:34Martin Brunt:I'm not a f***ing filthy terrorist or a rapist or a murderer. So who am I dangerous to outside?

0:42Niall:On Wednesday, the now 73-year-old has his ninth parole hearing. Is this the moment he leaves prison for good? Well, he certainly does have some high-profile support.

0:52Martin Brunt:Hey, Charlie, Tyson Fury here, your old mate.

0:55Niall:I hope you're doing really well, buddy, and it's time now to get out of them places and keep yourself on the straight and narrow. Still, there are plenty who look at his history of violence and believe he should remain under lock and key. Let's find out a bit more about the infamous Charles Bronson from his correspondent of more than 30 years, Sky's crime commentator, Martin Brunt. You know, over the years, many of us will have had a pen pal, and shout out to Raphael if he's listening to the podcast, but not many of us have had a relationship with, what, Britain's most infamous prisoner. Tell me about it.

1:29Martin Brunt:Well, it has been going on for a long time. Yes, I suppose you could describe us as pen pals. And to be a pen pal of Charles Bronson is certainly an interesting thing. What it gives me is a real insight to the man himself. And, you know, what I've learned from talking to him occasionally, a couple of times we've spoken by phone, but in our exchange of letters is that he's not the Neanderthal figure that a lot of people think he is from the kind of lurid tabloid headlines, that idea that he's Britain's most violent prisoner. I don't know that that's true. I mean, the justice system doesn't keep a league table of the most violent prisoners.

2:12Martin Brunt:And certainly, he's somebody who, despite his years and years of violent attacks inside prison has been very well behaved largely for the last 12 years, which rather begs the question, why is he still there? But what I've learned from exchanging letters is that he can be very articulate. He has this very gruff image, and there are episodes of violence, but also, and you see these from the pictures he sends me, he can produce some very delicate artwork. And for all the expletives that he uses and that gruff, Cockney vernacular in which he speaks, he can be very erudite and articulate. And nobody summarises in simple terms, his predicament better than the man himself.

3:00Niall:Martin, just describe these interactions. I mean, what do you and Charles Bronson actually talk about?

3:05Martin Brunt:I've only had two conversations with him. I spoke to him, I don't know, 25 years ago when a friendly prison warder managed to let him make a phone call to me from Walton jail. And what he said to me was that apart from bemoaning his situation, he wanted to emphasize why he'd embarked on this alternative life as an artist. And he described himself as a born again artist. And he wanted to use his art to, in his words at the time, to show young people, he said, that going to prison is a pretty grim experience. And if he could do anything to dissuade kids from getting into trouble and ending up in jail like him, he wanted to do it.

3:50Martin Brunt:And so he produced this rather naive style art that depicted scenes of torture and sadness and despair and so forth. And he thought that was one way of dissuading youngsters from getting into trouble. I spoke to him last week ahead of this parole review, and I asked him whether he felt that he could survive on the outside. Because one of the big issues is after so many years of institutionalization, how would he cope? He says that he feels he would cope. It's going to be very disorientating for him, but he's got friends who will support him. But he also has his art to sustain him. And more than that, it would sustain him mentally.

4:33Martin Brunt:but his pictures sell for hundreds and thousands of pounds so he could earn a reasonable living.

4:41Niall:As you say Martin, there is this perception of him as an incredibly violent man but why the continued incarceration? I mean he spent what, more than half a century certainly a lot more than half of his life behind bars. Why?

4:56Martin Brunt:Yeah, I mean a good deal more than half his life. He's 73 now and he's been inside for 52 years, but for a couple of brief periods of freedom. But then he's ended up back inside because he's committed crimes. And I suppose we should make the point that I'm not an apologist for his bad behavior and he can be very, very violent. His original conviction for armed robbery in 1974 was the result of a very nasty attack on two individuals, somebody who was very, very badly beaten up, others who were put in fear of their lives by him pointing a gun at them. So we shouldn't underestimate his propensity for violence then.

5:42Martin Brunt:He got seven years in 1974, and he's compounded his incarceration by attacking largely figures of authority inside the various prisons, so prison governors, prison teachers, and so forth. There have been attacks on inmates and some very nasty ones. And then in 1999, after a series of hostage takings. He took an art teacher hostage and terrorized him and got a life sentence. But that was 27 years ago. And even then, that life sentence gave him a minimum of three years before he could apply for parole. Today is his ninth parole review. And clearly, he's been rejected up until this point. But yeah, that's why he's still in prison.

6:30Martin Brunt:But as he says, he's never killed anybody. He's never raped anybody. People think he's a serial killer.

6:35Niall:He did change his name, didn't he, Martin? And he changed his name for a very straightforward reason. You know, Charles Bronson. Many people listening to this might not know who that is. Just explain.

6:46Martin Brunt:It was during a period of prison release. So sometime in the 80s. And when he was free for, and it was only for a few weeks, he took up amateur boxing and a promoter suggested that he changed his name from Mickey Peterson, which is his birth name, to Charles Bronson, because it would add to his kind of image. If he took the name of the American actor, Charles Bronson, a gruff figure, you know, rough, handsome looks, it would give him a higher profile. So he changed it to Charles Bronson. And he's been Charles Bronson almost ever since, until three or four years ago, he changed it again to Charles Salvador.

7:25Niall:There is this curious duality to the man. The name Salvador, they're a reference to Salvador Dali. I think one of his favourite artists. You have this literary air to the man. I mean, just describe his art to those who haven't seen it.

7:40Martin Brunt:Well, it's a naive style. And I suppose I've seen it develop over the last 30 years because he started sending me drawings in those early days and he's still sending them to me. He once sent me about a hundred after I sent him a great chunk of paper. When I write him, I send him artwork, stuff, materials, because he finds it difficult to get hold of it. And he sent me something like 100 drawings in a week, which I then sent on to his lawyer, because at that stage, they were becoming quite valuable. A lot of them are sold for charity. And I didn't want to be sitting on something so valuable that could be used for good purposes.

8:20Martin Brunt:And I remember one he sent me where he said, you know, don't give up. We all have our dreams. And one dream, he wrote, can get you through all the misery.

8:31Niall:What is his life like inside? He has his art, He has his writing. But the rest of the time, what does this individual do?

8:39Martin Brunt:Well, he doesn't do very much because he's locked up in his cell in the segregation unit. And he has, I mean, this is probably the really saddest thing, that he has very, very little interaction with anybody else. And I remember interviewing Dr. Bob Johnson, who's a rather wonderful character, retired psychiatrist who treated Bronson many, many years ago. And Bob always makes the point that, you know, we are humans are social animals. And to deprive somebody of that very basic interaction with other people on a regular basis is one of the most wicked aspects, according to Dr. Bob Johnson, of Bronson's continued incarceration.

9:23Martin Brunt:So what does he do? He does his art. He writes letters. And you always get the sense that when I write to him, I get a reply very quickly. I get the sense that he kind of waits for people to write to him. And I'm not the only one. There are a number of people, a growing band of supporters who send him letters. And if you watch my report today on Sky News, you'll see that there are a number of celebrity figures. Tyson Fury, John Terry, the former England captain, who are posting messages on Instagram in the lead up to today's parole review, showing their support for Bronson and hoping that he does get the result that he wants.

10:07Niall:Is someone coordinating that, Martin? I mean, as you say, John Terry, former England captain, Tyson Fury, former world heavyweight champion boxer. I mean, these are high profile individuals. Is there a coordinated campaign for Bronson's release?

10:20Martin Brunt:There is to a degree. I mean, he has a very good friend who I'm in contact with, who Bronson trusts implicitly. And, you know, he's often, you know, my first point of contact. And he organises or helps organise art exhibitions. I went to one last week where people turn up and they view the art, they learn more about Bronson and they're encouraged to lend their support, be it writing to him or on social media. I wouldn't say there's a kind of official coordinated campaign. But, you know, over the years, more and more people have been drawn to Bronson's plight.

11:02Niall:Let's talk about the parole board hearing, because of course, Charles Bronson has been here before and a number of times before. What might make this occasion different, do you think? Is this a man who, through your interactions, you detect any rehabilitation in?

11:16Martin Brunt:It ought to be, because two and a half years ago at his last parole hearing, the parole panel did conclude that he wasn't fit for release and he wasn't fit yet for move to an open prison. But it did suggest that he should be moved down through the prison system, out of segregation, into a less restricted regime so that his behaviour could be tested with other prisoners. I mean, one of the arguments on his behalf is that largely the people he's attacked over the years have been figures of authority. The argument is that he is safe to be released to the public, but that behaviour needs to be tested with him associating with other prisoners.

12:02Martin Brunt:So the first move would be to move him out of segregation into a normal cell. And that's what was recommended by the parole board two and a half years ago. But it's never happened. The parole board can't order that to happen. It's up to the prison system to move him within the prison service. But it's not happened and it's very difficult to understand why. And if I ask the Ministry of Justice why it hasn't happened, they simply say we're not prepared to discuss individual prisoners.

12:33Niall:I wonder what those who have been the victims of Bronson's violence feel about the prospect of him being released. I mean, do we know? Have we spoken to any of them?

12:42Martin Brunt:I tried to speak to the art teacher who he took hostage in 1999 that led to the life sentence. He decided that he wouldn't do an interview, but he's spoken in the past. And although he was traumatized and he left his job, and I think he says that he's found it very difficult to work since, I think there was an interview he did where he kind of accepted that, you know, even for him, Bronson has probably spent too long in prison. and there was another prison governor I spoke to two or three years ago who said that he'd dealt with him, one of the many prisons he's been in. And he said he tried to help him too, but he said it was impossible.

13:23Every time he tried to help him, it all went pear-shaped.

13:27Martin Brunt:And he said, I gave him access to the library, but then he took the librarian hostage. So he was full of despair and he thought that Bronson would never be rehabilitated.

13:39Niall:I mean, Martin, you have been in contact with Charles Bronson for an extended period of time. You perhaps know him as well as anyone can working in the profession in which we do. Why do you think there has been such a fascination, almost a lurid fascination on the part of the British public in this individual?

13:59Martin Brunt:I guess people are fascinated because he's a very colourful figure. He can be very funny. He can be very articulate. But he did have this propensity for violence that intrigues people. I mean, we could spend a whole podcast talking about people's fascination with crime and particularly violent crime. I think the more people read about his experiences and his life, they can't help but become sympathetic. I mean, I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who probably think, well, he keeps being violent and he's got what he deserves. But that's really far from the truth. He's not been convicted for the last 12 years.

14:45Martin Brunt:He keeps telling people, why is he still in prison? And I don't know the answer to that. I don't think he's somebody who should be immediately released. I'm sure the parole board isn't going to decide that. But everybody who's had any real dealings with him, I think, agrees that he should be moved out of segregation to mix with other prisoners and show that he can behave and not attack other people.

15:14Niall:You are, however, one of a few people who could ultimately end up meeting Charles Bronson if parole board decisions in the future go in his favour. I mean, if that happens, would you be happy to sit down in a room alone with Charles Bronson, genuinely?

15:33Martin Brunt:Would it be a risk for me to sit down with him? I don't think so. I would happily sit down, just the two of us. I suppose I might live to regret that, but I honestly don't think that I would. He said in a voice message that he sent me two or three years ago that he thinks I'm a fair man, which was good of him to say that. But I don't shy away from the damage that he has caused.