Michael Gove: Shabana Mahmood will lead Labour... but not yet

0:01The Home Secretary's big announcement on immigration is being praised by the Conservatives and reform. As Labour's left struggles to accept the scale of the shift, who is Shabana Mahmood? How does a banana trigger a CIA-backed coup? Do AirPods herald the arrival of a new global order? What do LED lights say about the future of humanity? I'm Ed Conway and in each episode of my new podcast Stuff Matters I take an object, crack it open and reveal the world-shaping forces hidden inside. This is economics told through the things we think we understand. Search Stuff Matters on your podcast app to listen and follow.

0:47I wish it were possible to say that there isn't a problem here, that there's nothing to see and that it is all, in fact, just extremist right-wing talking points. But this system is broken. If you're going to shake up asylum and immigration, you'd better be pretty strong-minded, not to mention thick-skinned. Hi, everyone. Welcome to another one of our weekend profiles. This time, it's the turn of Home Secretary Shabana Mahmood. And even at first glance, she is fascinating. Parachuted into the Home Office earlier this year after a stint at justice, as she was essentially directed to think the unthinkable and do what many considered impossible.

1:25Reflect the public moods, turn around asylum, go after the gaps in our nation's borders. And she does so as one of the first Muslim MPs and the first Muslim woman to be Home Secretary. So we thought rather than get one of the, frankly, many admirers within her party to give their take, we'd instead ask someone rather more used to seeing her from the other side of the Commons chamber.

1:48Michael Gove:The Prime Minister said that he thought that Nigel Farage's policies on indefinite leave to remain were racist. Is that language that you think is helpful and accurate? I actually think it's a little bit worse than racist. If it was racist, in a funny way, it would be easier to deal with. I think it's immoral and I think it's extreme. You'll have recognised the Home Secretary, but perhaps the other voice there, Michael Gove. Once upon a time, not short of a few leadership ambitions himself, the former Education, Justice and Environment Secretary has returned to journalism, the career he had before politics.

2:29Michael spoke to Shabana at the Labour conference in his new role as editor of The Spectator magazine, and turns out he's a somewhat unexpected admirer of the current Home Secretary. Michael, look, I suspect there might be a few people listening to this, who would be surprised, given your prominence within the Conservative Party, the roles you've held in the past. And I hope I'm not wrong in saying this, but you are a bit of a fan of Shabana, aren't you?

2:54Michael Gove:Yes, I'm a big fan of Shabana Mahmood. I think that she's an impressive politician. I think she's proving to be a reforming Home Secretary. I also think that as an individual, on a personal basis, she is a warm and deeply honest and principled person. So there should be more people like Shabana Mahmood in British politics. You sat down with her in your post over at The Spectator at the Labour conference. I mean, one to one, what is she actually like? Well, the first thing is that even though she has a stern image, actually, she has a sharp and fast sense of humour. She's quick off the mark, witty.

3:31Michael Gove:She's someone who sticks by her friends and for whom family means a great deal. When I had the conversation with her for The Spectator at the Labour Party conference, there were members of her family in the audience who were there both to support her and also because their approval, their support means a great deal to her and her values are derived to a significant extent from the experience of growing up with parents who mean everything to her. It's also the case that she has friends who are outside politics whose opinions she values and they help earth her. And that's one of the reasons why I think she remains that rare thing in politics.

4:09Michael Gove:Someone whose most important influences are not political activists or special advisors, but friends and family who have a rounded view of what matters in life and the capacity to take the mickey out of her when she's at home. And she has the capacity to take the mickey out of colleagues when she's at work. Ideologically, politically, how would you describe it. In fact, I think did previously say that she embodies in some respects the Labour coalition. So on one hand, she's been Labour all her life. Her father was involved in Labour Party politics in Birmingham. She grew up in a household where politics was discussed around the dinner table and with friends and neighbours.

4:52Michael Gove:Because the Labour Party is as much part of her life as family, as education, she's been campaigning for it since she was a teenage girl and she was involved in politics at university. More than that, as an Asian woman who represents one of the most diverse seats in the UK, she's exactly the sort of person who the Labour Party would take pride in having not just in Parliament, but in the Cabinet. It's also the case, though, that her seat is a working class seat. And Shabana Mahmood has the social attitudes of working class Labour voters. She understands that when it comes to crime and when it comes to immigration, and also when it comes to making sure that taxpayers' money is spent wisely, that working class people have small c conservative attitudes.

5:41Michael Gove:That doesn't mean that they're Tory. It does mean that they are prepared to see more tax, for example, levied in order to improve the NHS or raise standards in schools or get more police on the streets. What they're not prepared to do is to see that money spent on the sort of diversity initiatives that the lifestyle left have become associated with. When it comes to migration, I mean, squint at what Shabana Mahmood has been announcing this weekend and before. And wouldn't you expect it to have come, well, from the side of the chamber that you used to occupy, rather than the Labour side? What's really been striking about what Shabana Mahmood has announced on asylum is it comes from a place of conviction with her.

6:23Michael Gove:She couldn't have made the policy announcement in the way that she did in the House of Commons, unless she was absolutely convinced of the rightness of this course, and on top of all the facts. But it's also the case that the response from Conservatives and reform has been an attempt to say, well, you know, we thought of this first, and to try to annex her policies for their parties. I'm a Tory. I always will be. But I think it's important to acknowledge that if you have a politician like Shavana Mahmood, who has analysed the issue and come up with solutions that are correct, that what you should do is have the grace to acknowledge that and to offer support.

7:02Michael Gove:And Kemi Beidnok has done that. But you're right, the fact that you've got the leader of the Tory party and a crusty old Tory like me thinking that Shabana Mahmood is doing the right thing has unsettled a number of people on the Labour backbenchers who think all the wrong folk are cheering. Does that not mean then that far from actually solving the problem that Labour has with immigration, it brings it into sharper focus. When you have people on your own side criticising you and the likes of Kimi Bidnock and, of course, Nigel Farage praising you, it doesn't necessarily look good for your long-term political future with any socially democratic party.

7:36Michael Gove:I think that what Shabana Mahmood has understood is that if she can bring down the rate of migration, if she can show that the asylum backlog is cleared, if the number of small boats attempting to land on our shores significantly diminishes, then immigration will be a much less important issue come the general election. And that will be good for the government. There was a very powerful letter in The Times this week from Jack Straw, former Home Secretary, when he introduced slightly tighter migration policies when Tony Blair was prime minister. He said that he was denounced by the left-wingers on Labour's backbenches, who accused him of being a sellout, a closet Tory and a reactionary.

8:13Michael Gove:And then come the election in 2001, those same MPs couldn't wait to have him campaigning in their seats as the guy who was the immigration hawk. He predicted that come the next general election, Labour MPs will be queuing up to say, I backed Shabana Mahmood's crackdown on migration. And I think that those MPs at the moment who are queasy should recognise that Shabana Mahmood is doing them a favour by making it more likely that they will keep their seats. But even more importantly than that. She will, if she succeeds, turn down the temperature on immigration, on integration, and on race in this country, which will be better for all of us because we'll have a more harmonious society.

8:56I'm just wondering, to what extent does her religion play a part in her politics?

9:01Michael Gove:It's undoubtedly the case that Shabalemu's religion plays a part in her politics. She's been criticized, I think, very unfairly by some people, including on the right, for her faith. And there have been people who've attempted to suggest that there is something somehow unsettling about having a believing Muslim in the home office. My experience in conversation with Shabana Mahmood and observing how she works is that her faith is a very valuable anchor, that she believes that the gifts that any of us are indicted with are there for a purpose, and that purpose is to serve others. Of course, you can have people who have that burning conviction that their role is of service without having a faith.

9:45Michael Gove:But in Shabana Mahmood's case, her faith means that she recognizes that if you make a promise that you should keep it, that public service is an opportunity, a privilege, but also an obligation to get things done. And I think it's also the case that that faith helps sustain Shrabanamah moved through difficult times, which you inevitably have in politics and will always have as Home Secretary. And so I think it's a very valuable anchor. Now, there are some people, as I say, who've been attempting to make trouble, who draw attention to the fact that, for example, when she visits a mosque, her head is covered and they're trying to suggest that somehow she's a sort of closet extremist.

10:26Michael Gove:I know for a fact that that is absolutely not true. And I think it's very important, again, for this country that we draw an Ivan distinction between people who are believing Muslims, who draw real nourishment from Islam, and extremists. And you can have very strong Muslim convictions and be a fantastic addition to this country. That's Shabana Mahmood. And she, I think, recognizes for that reason more acutely than anyone that extremists who try to say that they can interpret Islam and you're only a good Muslim, if you agree with them, are the enemy of integration and the enemy of peaceful, religious folk, whatever their faith.

11:09What do you make of, what do you know of her relationship with Sir Keir Starmer himself? I mean, he appointed her, of course, but sometimes it strikes me that they do seem to exist somewhat at arm's length from each other.

11:22Michael Gove:I don't think that Keir Starmer fully appreciates what an asset he has in Shabana Mahmood. And it's interesting that at times in the past, he hasn't given her the due that she deserves. She was instrumental in making sure that when his leadership was at one of its lowest ebbs, when he'd lost a by-election in Hartlepool, he was facing a really tough by-election in West Yorkshire, that Labour actually won that by-election. She has, as we discussed earlier, a long career in the Labour Party, and she's worked as a doorstep activist, making sure that those leaflets are distributed and those conversations I had on the doorstep to encourage people to vote Labour.

11:58Michael Gove:And she deployed all of her skill in that area to win that by-election. And she also, as Justice Secretary, took one of the most difficult decisions that the incoming Labour government had to take to release prisoners early in order to try to restore order to the prison system. And he's made her Home Secretary because he recognizes that she is a formidable deliverer. And because one of his closest aides is Chief of Staff Morgan McSweeney has long known that she's a special talent. But I thought it was a mistake for him not to be alongside her on Monday when she made that statement, because I think that Keir Starmer needs to show that when one of his ministers is showing a degree of courage and facing internal opposition, that he is entirely behind them.

12:43Michael Gove:I think there's a broader issue sometimes with Keir Starmer, which is that he's not always there for his lieutenants and his colleagues. And I'm pretty confident that if the situation were reversed, that Shabana Mahmood would be there for a Home Secretary who needed support. So it's a criticism, certainly, of Keir Starmer, but it's an opportunity also for him to show that he's getting behind someone who is delivering a very tough message, but a necessary one. But if we accept that Sir Keir Starmer probably has some genuine concerns right now about his longevity as prime minister, might we also accept the fact that she may be part of those concerns?

13:24I mean, she does look to some within the party like a leader in waiting. What do you think?

13:28Michael Gove:Well, I have no doubt that Shabana Mahmood is capable of leading the Labour Party and that she has the intelligence and integrity to be a party leader or prime minister one day. But I also think that those thoughts are pretty far from her mind at the moment. And her whole approach, I've seen both in conversation, but also from the decisions he's taken, is not to think about short or even medium term popularity, but to think about getting the job done. And so I think that she will be a successful him secretary. And I think she would think that she might at some point in the future be a potential contender for the leadership, but only after she's proven at the Home Office that she can deliver.

14:12Michael Gove:I think she can, but she wouldn't want to have leadership speculation or internal maneuvering draw attention away from the importance of getting this job done. Now, it may be that there's a vacancy for the Labour leadership sooner rather than later. It's certainly the case that there are other people who are maneuvering for that. I don't think that she is, but I think that her support for or endorsement of one of the people who might succeed Starmer if there's an early vacancy could be crucial. If that moment were to come, and the key date seems to be around the local elections in May next year, would she be best advised to start rolling the pitch for that job now?

14:56Or is it worth her while keeping her counsel, keeping her cards close to her chest, as you say, just cracking on with the job and just waiting for the moment?

15:04Michael Gove:I think the right thing to do is to crack on with the job. And actually, I think that's what she'll do anyway. And I think it will be the case that she'll believe that the right thing to do in every sense of the word is to concentrate on doing an effective job as Home Secretary, and not to worry about enduring unpopularity along the way. When Gordon Brown was shadow chancellor, he endured unpopularity in order to make Labour more electable. That meant that he was picked for the post by Tony Blair. It got to him, it corroded some of his confidence, some of his goodwill to Tony Blair. But I don't think the same thing would happen with Shabana Mahmood.

15:36Michael Gove:I think that Shabana Mahmood would think, if I can do the best possible job in the role to which I've been called, that is the right thing. If I'm called in future to another role, then I will tackle that. And in the meantime, there'll be other people who'll be thinking far more about the leadership. Good luck to them. What I need to do is to make sure that I deliver the right policy for Labour. You have spoken very, very warmly about Shabana. I want to ask very specifically, do you see her as if not one of us, as a politician who under different circumstances could have ended up with a conservative rosette on rather than a Labour rosette.

16:09Is it that you see her as a fellow traveller, as a politician who you admire for the reasons that you hope people look at your history in politics and admire you?

16:20Michael Gove:I wouldn't make that claim. I think the key thing is, now that I'm no longer an active politician, I hope I can take one step back. Of course I've got strong views on all sorts of issues and those views are pretty conventionally Tory. But one of the reasons why I admire Shabana Mahmood is that when she makes her case, she does so on the basis of conviction, but also with an intelligence and a freshness that I find attractive. And she takes, for example, a very different view from me on the whole question of ID cards. She's strongly in favor, I'm very skeptical. But when I listened to her make that case, I knew that it wasn't someone who is merely reading out the Labour Party's talking points or the government's press release.

17:03Michael Gove:And so therefore, I think it's important in politics to be able to respect people with whom you may agree on some issues and disagree on others, who come to politics with the right values and the right approach. And I actually think that Shabana Mood is a more principled politician than ever I was. So that's one of the reasons I admire her. Michael Gove, great to chat to you. Thanks so much for your time. Thank you. Thanks for listening. If you didn't know, all of our weekend profiles are available to watch on the Sky News YouTube channel, including this one with Michael Gove. So head over there for more of our chat.

17:37And don't forget, if you like what you've heard, do give the podcast a follow. It is only a click away. The Daily's back again Monday. Till then, take care.

17:58a new global order. What do LED lights say about the future of humanity? I'm Ed Conway, and in each episode of my new podcast, Stuff Matters, I take an object, crack it open, and reveal the world-shaping forces hidden inside. This is economics told through the things we think we understand. Search Stuff Matters on your podcast app to listen and follow.