The teen who could lead North Korea: Who is Kim Jong Un's young’un?

0:02Niall:Sky News, the full story first.

0:08Professor Hazel Smith:She's the 13-year-old girl who could be North Korea's next dictator. So who is Kim Jue?

0:18Professor Hazel Smith:What does life look like for your average 13-year-old girl? Not my area of expertise, of course, but I'd imagine homework. Le boo-boo dolls, maybe a bit of eye-rolling at the parents. but usually not inspecting intercontinental ballistic missiles, sitting front row at military parades, or being photographed beside one of the world's most powerful and paranoid leaders. And yet, that's exactly what Kim Jue has been doing. We first heard of her thanks to basketball legend Dennis Rodman. Well, Dennis, I'd come over to see my friend. He visited North Korea back in 2013 and said he held her as a baby.

0:57Professor Hazel Smith:Since then, Kim Jue has gone from being almost entirely unknown to a fixture at North Korea's biggest set-piece events.

1:08Professor Hazel Smith:Hand in hand with her father, Kim Jong-un, and being described in state media with language usually reserved for future leaders.

1:19Professor Hazel Smith:South Korean intelligence says she's close to being named the air-designate, the next dictator. but this is one of the world's most secretive states. So what's going on? What does it really mean when a teenage girl becomes one of the most visible faces of the world's most secretive regime?

1:37Niall:You don't have to be a medical genius to see that Kim Jong-un is completely overweight. He smokes and he drinks, that's all public. So what's happening behind the scenes is they're trying to minimise the possibility of instability within the state which they think the South Koreans could take advantage of.

1:54Professor Hazel Smith:Hazel Smith is Professor of International Relations at the School of Oriental and African Studies. She's also the author of North Korea, Markets and Military Rule. So Hazel, what is your analysis of why we are seeing Kim Jong-un more prominently over the past couple of years? What is Kim Jong-un's purpose in parading his daughter?

2:17Niall:I think the simple thing is that what they want to convey, both to their own people and to any of us abroad who are interested in North Korea, is that the political system, based around the mythology of the family, the Kim family, this particular Kim family being omnipotent, is going to continue. The Kim family, led by whichever Kim is in charge at the moment, and at the moment it's Kim Jong-un, is seen as the source of legitimate political power and a source that cannot be contradicted, all powerful, all wise. That's the mythology. That's what they get in the schools. That's what they get in culture, like movies, for example.

2:58Niall:Not all movies are about the Kim family, but the ones that are, the message comes clearly through that the Kim family are infallible. That's the message. It can't be contradicted because they're always right.

3:08Professor Hazel Smith:Hazel, one of the curiosities of this profile we are doing today is that whilst we think we know what this individual's name is, we haven't had it announced through state media. In fact, actually, the first we heard of Kim Dwey was thanks to the heavily tattooed former boyfriend of Madonna, the former basketball star Dennis Rodman. Just tell me about that.

3:30Niall:What happened was that Dennis Rodman visited North Korea a few times, in fact, struck up some unlikely friendships with the Kim family. and when he came out on one of those occasions said that Kim Jong-un, who is the current leader, had had a baby girl. As far as we know, there is a previous boy who we don't know anything about and neither does any of the intelligence services and maybe another child afterwards. So yes, you're right. That's where it came from in the first place. And the reason that we talk about it is because the little girl that Dennis Rodman held in his arms is now receiving a lot of publicity in North Korean media as well as in the international media now.

4:08Professor Hazel Smith:It appears, well, certainly according to the South Korean intelligence services, that the reason that she is being paraded around is that she is now the purported heir. Why have South Korean intelligence been able to make that judgment call on her?

4:21Niall:I think we have to take all of this with a big pinch of salt. South Korean intelligence are being very, very qualified in what they say. Seriously, though, I mean, what it does show is that the ruling family in North Korea, which has been a family dynasty since the state was created after the end of the Second World War, has not made any changes in its overall political system. It's still going to carry on being a family dynasty. Whether or not, I mean, she's a 13-year-old young girl. She ends up being the head of that dynasty when Kim Jong-un dies, or whether she's a titular head or whether a natural head, we don't know.

4:56Professor Hazel Smith:For those who don't understand how this nation works, just explain. I mean, is all the power vested in the leader, Kim Jong-un?

5:05Niall:Not quite. It's certainly the Kim family, which is, you know, Kim is a common name in South and North Korea. So sometimes it can be a bit confusing. But this particular Kim family, which is headed up by Kim Jong-un, is the leading family in North Korea. But that doesn't mean to say that other families are not important. And what will probably happen, because it's a bit like medieval Europe in North Korea, is that the families intermarry within each other. And that's to consolidate power between different families. And it's very likely that what will happen is that she will be married off. They'll be looking around at who will be eligible and who won't be.

5:39Niall:So yes, the Kim family, the leading Kim family is really important, but other families are also important. So what we're seeing here and what the South Koreans are getting right, I think, is that what the current leader is trying to portray is that there's going to be some continuity of the political system. And that's why one of his children is being paraded around at the moment, showing that there is a family generational link and that link will continue in the political system in the future.

6:04Professor Hazel Smith:When did we first start seeing Kim Joi in public?

6:07Niall:We first started seeing her being taken into public when she was about nine or ten. Again, we don't know the exact dates. I think the thing is, though, we have to be a bit careful not to overblow this. Kim Jong-un is, as far as we know, a father of three. It's clear from the pictures that there's a lot of fondness between him and this young girl. as far as she's concerned, in North Korea, if you're a young woman, there's not much fun in life. It's not like when you're the daughter of an elite from many other countries in the world, and they spend their time going around the hotspots of the world, meeting influencers, being on yachts.

6:41Niall:You can't do that if you're a young North Korean member of the elite. So when this young girl goes to these various parades and conferences, you know, basically she's getting out of the house. So for her, it gives her some change to the normal dreary life, even if they're well off compared to everybody else in North Korea, that she would be having. So it's not surprising that she's going out and about.

7:06Professor Hazel Smith:What more do we actually know about? I mean, as mentioned, you know, state media have yet even to confirm her name, let alone her date of birth. What do we understand her life to be like as a 13 year old in North Korea?

7:19Niall:Of course, she'll have access to good food and the best sort of clothes they can have and to the sorts of experiences that other 13-year-olds in North Korea would have difficulty accessing. But in North Korea, for instance, all girls go to school, even the poorest. The rate of numeracy and literacy for children and adults for a poor country is pretty remarkable. It's likely, given the history of the family, that they will try to send her abroad somewhere discreetly. We don't know whether it'll be possible. It's unlikely that she will be able to travel apart from to China, which is a major ally of North Korea on official visits and maybe Russia in the future.

7:59Niall:So her means of having a bit of fun, for example, are going to be pretty limited compared to the children of international celebrities and politicians worldwide.

8:10Professor Hazel Smith:Bearing in mind everything that you've just said, I'm wondering, you know, her immediate family, mother, siblings, what do we know about them? I mean, have they been as visible as Kim Jong-un?

8:22Niall:The South Koreans really don't know very much about the siblings. Their intelligence is, as far as I know, that there are two other siblings, but nobody knows. Otherwise, South Korean intelligence would probably be making more comments about them.

8:35Professor Hazel Smith:Has there been any indication that a changing of the guard is in any way imminent? There has been plenty of speculation. I imagine most of it uninformed about the health of Kim Jong-un. And certainly he presents himself as someone who is not in the best of physical fitness.

8:51Niall:You don't have to be a medical genius to see that Kim Jong-un is completely overweight. He smokes and he drinks. That's all public. So there are clearly, and the North Korean Medical Service, it doesn't have many resources, but it does have good technical skills. They will be concerned that there could be, he could have a stroke or he could be ill, even if he doesn't die. So what's happening behind the scenes is that they're trying to minimise the possibility of instability within the state, which they think the South Koreans could take advantage of, as the US could take advantage of if that was to materialise in the future.

9:28Professor Hazel Smith:Just picking up on a couple of things that you've said there, I mean, certainly proximity or even family ties to the centre of power in North Korea. It strikes me that that doesn't necessarily guarantee a long and happy life. There have been executions, as you've mentioned, there have also been assassinations. I mean, should Kim Jue be looking over her shoulder?

9:47Niall:You know, that's a good question. And that's a good point to make. We have had close relatives of the Kim family killed. Not only did we see the uncle, the current leader's uncle, killed in an execution, but a half-brother was assassinated in Kuala Lumpur Airport with some sort of nerve gas, some sort of poisoning. And we know that took place. So when a close family member close to succession is highlighted, that also makes them vulnerable. So that doesn't simply apply to the daughter. That will apply to anyone who ends up on the wrong side of whoever is in power in North Korea. In terms of your question, is she in danger?

10:42Niall:No, I don't think so in the interim or even in the future. But that would depend on the overall events, which we can't predict.

10:51Professor Hazel Smith:Hazel, given what you know of North Korea, of the Kims, in fact, I wonder if you have a degree of sympathy for Dewey, the position that she finds herself in. She is just a 13-year-old girl, but the position she finds herself in simply by dint of birth.

11:06Niall:Well, she will be more privileged than anybody else in North Korea. I can't. I have too much sympathy. if she's reasonably intelligent, she will start to see that her life in North Korea is extremely limited. And that's what happened with some of the half siblings to the current leader who chose to live abroad. And all the Kim family who chose to live abroad, sometimes in Paris, sometimes in Macau, sometimes in Switzerland, it starts to be easy to see that even if you're very privileged in North Korea, your life is very, very, very narrow. You don't have the opportunities that you would have if you were the child of an elite member anywhere else in the world, or even the child of a middle-class family in the UK where you might be able to go abroad for a few years to meet people of a different culture, of a different background.

11:55Niall:That isn't going to happen apart from in a very narrow sense. In North Korea, they can't say what they want. They can't eat what they want, really. They can't talk to who they want. every single thing that they do is framed by how it looks to the domestic population, by the political dynamics between all the various important families, even their marriages, for example. And it's not a life that probably most people, you or I, for instance, would choose for ourselves.

12:23Professor Hazel Smith:Certainly not. Hazel, it's been a pleasure chatting to you. Thanks for your time. That's your lot for The Daily. We are back next week. Till then, do take care.

12:35Thank you.