Where does ‘he said, she said’ charity row leave Prince Harry?

0:00Hello, Ed Conway here. Here is what might sound like a slightly random question. What do AirPods, bananas and a pair of shoddily made running trainers from the 1970s have in common? On the surface, not very much. But on my podcast, Stuff Matters, I will uncover the deeper stories behind each of them. You will see how together they tell a fascinating new story about the world we live in. The first full series of Stuff Matters is out now. Just search for it on your podcast app and follow. Coming up on The Daily, an investigation concludes there was neither bullying nor misogyny at the charity Prince Harry founded in memory of his mother.

0:38So why isn't he happy? Hello, Ed Conway here. Here is what might sound like a slightly random question. What do AirPods, bananas and a pair of shoddily made running trainers from the 1970s have in common? On the surface, not very much. But on my podcast, Stuff Matters, I will uncover the deeper stories behind each of them. You will see how, together, they tell a fascinating new story about the world we live in. The first full series of Stuff Matters is out now. Just search for it on your podcast app and follow.

1:14Centibali. The name itself means forget-me-not. But there is precious little about this whole affair that Prince Harry would care to remember. The charity was set up almost 20 years ago with Prince Sisu to help the most vulnerable children of Lesotho. But it all came to an abrupt end in March. Harry, Prince Sisu and the entire board of trustees resigned, citing the behaviour of the charity's chair, Dr Sophie Chandoka. She hit back with accusations of her own, poor governance, abuse of power, also bullying, harassment and misogyny. Here she is, talking to Sky's Trevor Phillips. There was quite a significant correlation between the time the organisation started to see a departure of sort of major organisations and Prince Harry's departure from the UK itself.

2:01All that, of course, denied by Harry. But the Charity Commission intervened and investigated. Its findings have now been released. And it's a mixed bag.

2:15Let's bring in our Royal Correspondent, Rhiannon Mills. Rhiannon, obviously, we're going to turn to the Charity Commission in a moment. But remind us, how on earth we got here? Well, I think we've got to talk about how we got here because that was what really hooked us all in, wasn't it, at the start of the year? This really vicious war of words, the kind of he said, she said that flared up very publicly between Prince Harry and Dr. Sophie Chandalka. Prince Harry, of course, patron of St Bali, the charity that he set up in his brother's name. Dr. Sophie Chandalka had been taken on as the chair of the charity.

2:49And look, publicly, it all got very nasty. There was a lot of point scoring and a lot of finger pointing. And how did that breakdown manifest itself? Post-Covid, there was definitely a kind of decision process made both by Sophie Chandalkar and members of the board that they had to kind of look at the direction of the charity. And that makes sense when you think it was now 19 years ago that Prince Harry and Prince Say So set up the charity in the first instance. Of course, it's a charity that has always helped young people in Lesotho with HIV and AIDS. But it was kind of then reaching out to the likes of Botswana, kind of having more of a mental health remit, all that kind of stuff.

3:29And that, I think, is where the breakdown really started. Sophie Chandowka, I think, wanted to come in. She had big ideas about where this charity could go, where it could grow. But also you had members of the Board of Trustees who'd been there for a very long time. And I think there was maybe a reluctance to listen to what Sophie Chandalka had to say. For me, it felt like personality flare up in terms of Prince Harry, Sophie Chandalka really not getting on. And that's where you had these accusations of a slightly strange phrase, overreach, that potentially Sophie Chandalka was going over the heads of the other board of trustee members.

4:10that Prince Harry was kind of trying to exert his influence in a way that he shouldn't have been doing. And that's where it all kind of started to really, really unravel. And then you had a spat at a polo match. Remind us what happened at that polo match, because, you know, there were cameras there. Yeah, there were. And I know that everybody was completely fascinated by this because you had Prince Harry and Meghan at a polo game. ultimately this is how Centre Bali makes a lot of its money it's by kind of these really high profile polo matches Sophie Chandaka was there then it was almost like was there a bit of a set to over where Sophie should be standing for a photograph suggestions that the Duke and Duchess of Sussex had been unkind to her but for me this was a big problem with the story back in March and April is people obviously always are fascinated about Harry and Meghan and how they're kind of getting on in their new life.

5:07And that in a way became the focus and the priority. People kind of lost attention on what actually fundamentally was going wrong with a really important charity that over 19 years has helped a huge number of young people who desperately need support. And of course, everything came to a head, really, with that interview with our colleague at Trevor Phillips. Let's just listen to a little bit more from their exchange. What you're essentially saying is that the Duke of Sussex is guilty of harassment and bullying and improper conduct in the governance of a charity. Well, let me put it to you this way.

5:46I'm going to give you a really good example. The only reason I'm here, Trevor, is because at some point on Tuesday, Prince Harry authorized the release of a damaging piece of news to the outside world without informing me or my country directors or my executive director. And can you imagine what that attack has done for me, on me, and the 540 individuals in the Sintervalle organizations and their family? That is an example of harassment and bullying at scale. And so if the world didn't want to believe that there's such a thing as bullying, this unleashing of the Sussex machine on me and the 540 employees at Sintervalle who received this and have had to defend it.

6:36By the way, when you say the Sussex machine, what are you talking about? The PR machine that supports Prince Harry's efforts. The only way we discovered of his decision was through the Sussex machine activating newspapers. And fundamentally, you know, some pretty serious accusations being laid at the door of Prince Harry there. Yeah, they were really serious and really stinging allegations. misogyny, racism, misogynoir, which is specifically relating to allegations of racism and mistreatment towards a black woman. And she continues today to talk about the adverse media campaign. This was all, I think, right until March going on behind the scenes.

7:23And then ultimately March, what we saw was it completely blow up in public. And that's why the findings of the charity Commission report are so fascinating, really, and ultimately feel like a massive slap on the wrist for everybody. Walk us through their conclusions, because they've taken their time with this, four months. Ultimately, what they do is come in and sort of play adjudicator. So for Harry, a partial victory is the fact that Harry was specifically cleared of those allegations of racism, misogyny, misogynoir. And ultimately, the charity commission say they didn't find any evidence that that had taken place.

8:06But they basically have said that all sides are responsible when it comes to putting this dispute out there into the public in a way that was completely unnecessary and ultimately damaged the brand of the charity, but also potentially damaged public trust in charities more generally. So it's a really stinging kind of criticism of both Sophie Chandalka and Sintibali, but also Prince Harry and the former trustees on that side as well. Yeah. And neither party is entirely new at this, you've got to say. You know, Dr Chandalka knows about PR. Prince Harry knows a thing or two about PR and spin as well.

8:45I mean, both sides knew exactly what they were doing when they took their spat public, didn't they? Well, yeah, then we were automatically going to be hooked in by it because both sides were being so vitriolic in their kind of criticisms of the opposite side. And so it became this compelling story. But as the Charities Commission very clearly points out, was this really in the best interest of the charity to allow what ultimately was a breakdown in relationships, a breakdown in communication within that board? Was it really the best way forward in terms of the future of the charity to allow it to play out so publicly?

9:25And what it does also point out is that there were kind of certain issues around governance and how certain roles were defined. And that's why now going forward, the charity has got this regulatory action plan in place. I think, well, certainly speaking to sources close to Prince Harry and the former trustees, they will acknowledge that potentially there did need to be some issues that were looked at and changed. And yeah, every charity has to grow and adjust. They just were not happy with the direction that Sophie Chandalka was taking that in and certainly also weren't happy with the amount of money that she was spending on things like consultants.

10:07So I think for Prince Harry, it's a really big deal that he has been cleared of those most serious allegations in terms of racism, misogyny. But also from Sophie Chandalka's side and Centibali's side, there is also a partial victory in the fact that she remains as chair. And I know that that is something that certainly Prince Harry and the former trustees did not want to see. They wanted to see her gone. I mean, Centibali, do you think it will survive? I mean, can it survive without Harry? Centibali ultimately has made its money largely because of Prince Harry's huge influence. And throughout most of the 19 years of its kind of existence, he's been one of the most famous men in the world and been hugely popular as well.

10:55and managed to attract really high profile individuals to help him fundraise through things like the polo matches, charity concerts. So, yeah, how does how does the charity, especially in these difficult economic times, continue to make money? And that was one of the things that Sophie Chandalka said that she was trying to focus on in terms of getting consultants in, was how does the charity continue to grow and make money in a very difficult economic climate. Just tell us, as Conley said, this is his baby. How much does this charity really mean to Prince Harry? From conversations you've had with him, the people around him and the people at the charity itself.

11:40Well, if you excuse me a moment of reminiscing, I suppose. Name dropping. Go on. I went to Lesotho back in 2015 when they opened the Mamahatu Centre, which they'd worked so hard to fundraise for. And that for me was peak Prince Harry. He was just he was there. He was having an amazing time. He just loved being around the kids. They had like things like a climbing wall and they were dancing and doing all this stuff. It was like he was at he was at home, really. And he was there with his friend Prince Seiso. So, yeah, I understood why this was a place that he wanted to keep coming back to and just how formative it had been spending his gap year there and how he genuinely felt like he could make a real difference.

12:28And again, it was back in a time where he would wander over to kind of the press pack and have a natter to us and go, oh, you need to go and have a chat with them over there about why this really matters. But it was a very kind of a really relaxed feel to it. And ultimately, of course, set up in his mother's name as well because of her kind of taboo busting work around HIV and AIDS. So, yeah, hugely, hugely important to him. So I'm not surprised that those around him just want to reinforce now how devastated he is about the kind of implosion within the charity. Given all of that, given just how close he is to this charity, I mean, I wonder how he's actually feeling right now.

13:10He's devastated. Sources close to him have described this to me as being nothing short of a hostile takeover. I know that they had sight of this report over the last couple of weeks and they were asking for certain things to be adjusted or re-looked at. and they I would say are fuming that Sophie Chandouka is still in place they feel like they have lost a charity that they had set up with so much passion and good faith and ultimately in in memory of his mother and Prince Saso's mother so it's it's really difficult and Prince Harry when he moved away from from royal life from from public duties he gave up an awful lot but there were kind of those pillars still in his life.

13:58Invictus, Sintabali. And Sintabali's now gone. Yeah, I'm told helping young people in Lesotho and Botswana around HIV, AIDS, mental health remains a priority for him. But how does he do that in a meaningful way? What is your best guess then as to how he does that? There's a few things. It's whether they set up a new charity. I think that's potentially quite difficult? How do you do Senter Bali Mark II operating the same space? Or do they start fundraising or investing in other organisations and charities that are working in Southern Africa, working specifically in Lesotho, Botswana, and kind of channel his efforts that way?

14:45It would be good, I think, for him if he did have something specifically in his name, a time when he's trying to have a bit of a reset. That was going to be my point. I mean, for him to base a charity around him, he's basing around his brand. And I'm not sure his brand is desperately strong right now. Not least because, of course, you know, Dr. Chandicker herself called the brand Toxic. So, what are we, five years on since they stepped away from royal life? And yeah, I think you're right. There have consistently been these grenades. I can't even call them little grenades, can I? kind of the Oprah interview or the Netflix documentary or spare.

15:23And then most recently, of course, around the security court case, he then did this really long 30 minute interview, which now speaking to some who are close to him, I think there's maybe a reflection that that wasn't necessarily the wisest thing to do. I think now we may not see him do as many interviews. I I think he's beginning to have a new team around him. For me, it does feel like they are trying to have a bit of a reset to kind of, they realise that they can't erase what happened in the past, but maybe they can start to kind of move on a bit from it. And of course, we had that meeting, didn't we, between the King's communications secretary, some of Harry's team.

16:13And that, for me, felt like part of the reset in terms of that conversation, I suspect, wasn't about when can we mastermind the picture of father and son embracing. I suspect a lot of it was more kind of practical things along the lines of trying to avoid unnecessary negative stories. So with, I don't know, clash of diaries, Harry's being accused of doing a job on the same day as his father. Can they share that basic information so that we don't just score an own goal when it comes to negative stories? So I'm taking it that those hopeful for rapprochement, a reuniting of the Klan, they might have to wait a wee while.

16:53Look, I'm hopeful. Wouldn't it be great? Wouldn't it be nice to talk about something positive? But then is there the public appetite? And I think that's the difficult bit. is for members of the public, Harry's got work to do in terms of the UK public, in terms of getting them back on site. So does that mean he spends more time in the spotlight or less? The new team around him would hope that they can potentially get him out more, doing more of those jobs that he has traditionally always done so well. So look, he is brilliant with children. He is brilliant with members of the public. He's very natural, much more natural than his brother, Prince William, I would say.

17:37Prince Harry has always kind of jumped two feet in first and people have traditionally loved him for that. Maybe they can start to focus more on what they feel he does best, which is engage with people and try and show us that side of him that cares more about the charity stuff that he's doing than talking about where he feels that he's been wronged. And you can read Rhiannon's analysis of the whole affair on the website, skynews.com. The Daily is back again tomorrow.

18:13Queen Carvania stood haloed by the morning sun. An army hung on her every word. My champions, I have sold my chariot on Carvana. T 'was a lovely SUV, an inexplicably queenly offer. They're even coming to the castle to collect it. Tonight, we feast. An offer you can feast on. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pickup fees may apply. Hello, Ed Conway here. Here's what might sound like a slightly random question. What do AirPods, bananas and a pair of shoddily made running trainers from the 1970s have in common? On the surface, not very much. But on my podcast, Stuff Matters, I will uncover the deeper stories behind each of them.

19:01You will see how together they tell a fascinating new story about the world we live in. The first full series of Stuff Matters is out now. Just search for it on your podcast app and follow.