Why Bumble's boss hopes AI is the future of dating

0:02Sky News. The full story first.

0:12The woman who helped found Tinder and Bumble is hoping that AI is the future of dating. And this is why.

0:30Nowadays, it seems you can't go five minutes without hearing the words tech bro. They might be firing a rocket into space, building the weapons of the future, or developing smart bottles that light up to remind you to drink water. Whatever they're up to, men we used to class as just a bit nerdy, are now at the forefront of a world that is rapidly changing. And that's why they're some of the richest and most powerful people on the planet. Yes! This is what victory feels like. Yeah! That was SpaceX's Elon Musk, who most of you will have heard of, along with Amazon's Jeff Bezos or Meta's Mark Zuckerberg.

1:10But there are dozens of other leading figures in tech whose imagination and innovation is helping to reshape our reality. And that's why we've decided to profile some of the big names in tech you might never have heard of. And guess what? They're not all bros either. We kicked off the series by looking at Sir Demis Hassabis, the British founder of Google DeepMind, who's using AI to bring about breakthroughs in science. Then we turned to Palantir boss Alex Karp. Now, his technology is used seemingly everywhere, from the NHS to the battlefield, and almost never without controversy. This week, though, love is in the air.

1:45As for the final instalment, we're looking at Whitney Wolfe-Hert. she helped change the world of dating by co-founding the apps Tinder and Bumble. I'm just so in love with Bumble. I don't see Bumble as a job. I really don't. I don't wake up in the morning and say, oh, I've got to go to work. It's funny, I have three children, but I do see Bumble as almost a form of a child to me in some degree because I built this from sheer passion and grit and it's just been this labor of love and resilience for so long. So why is Whitney Wolfhard banking on AI being the future of modern dating? I'm joined by Anna Iovine, who works for the tech site Mashable and has written extensively on the rise of dating apps.

2:29Anna, lovely to have you with us. Whitney helped create both Tinder and Bumble. How central has she been to the kind of the transformation of dating in the 21st century? Whitney Wolfhard has been an essential figure in changing how dating has transformed over the past decade or so. Now dating is so often on our phones and we do a lot of swiping. So Tinder really revolutionized the swipe model. Swipe left with your thumb if you don't want to match with someone. Swipe right if you do want to match with someone. And Wolfhard left Tinder around two years after its founding. She went on to start Bumble in 2014.

3:10And Bumble uses the same swipe model, and they're actually moving away from that, which we'll talk about, I'm sure. But what Bumble revolutionized is being a quote-unquote feminist dating app. The way Bumble was different from Tinder is that in heterosexual matches, at least, only women could message men first. Whereas Tinder, anyone can message each other. So that was how Winnie Wolf heard change dating for women, especially because they were experiencing a lot of times harassment or other unsavory messages from men. Okay, let's take Tinder just to start with. What was her role in creating Tinder?

3:51And it's absolutely enormous success. She was mostly part of the marketing team. And I think she had a name in naming Tinder as well. She really saw Tinder through a consumer's eyes rather than through the eyes of a developer. She left having made allegations of sexual harassment, discrimination. Those were denied and the matter was ultimately settled away from the gaze of the courts. But I do wonder how important that experience might have been to the creation of Bumble itself. Oh, I think it was essential in creating Bumble. As you mentioned, it was about sexual harassment and sexual discrimination.

4:29So I can imagine that she wanted a more woman-focused app moving forward. How genuinely seismic was it that Bumble's original idea that women should make the first move came to define it? It was truly revolutionary. And we have to remember that Bumble was started in 2014, which was only 12 years ago. But it seemed like such a different time than it is now. Now we're in the time of the manosphere and this real pushback against feminism. But at the time, over in the U.S., President Obama was the president, and it was a really big liberal time, both in person and on the Internet. And I think there was a real thirst for something like Bumble, something to acknowledge what women have been going through.

5:19And this was only three years before the Me Too movement really exploded. so I think it really changed the game what Whitney Wolfer started with Bumble. Placing it in that historical context, you're of the view that this was a genuinely kind of radical feminist idea in terms of dating apps rather than, I don't know, I might be being a bit cynical here, an exceptionally clever piece of branding. I do think that her personal experiences contributed to why she wanted to start her own app. And of course, the desire for fame and fortune did as well. But I do think that there were good intentions behind Bumble.

5:59And I think for a few years, people really did enjoy that aspect of it. We've already talked about this swiping left and swiping right of Tinder. And when that first came out, it was a genuinely revolutionary way of kind of dealing with dating. But as a device, didn't it take something away from dating? That swiping left made people perhaps think less about who they were dating. I think dating apps have contributed to a few unique problems with dating. When I speak to people who are maybe older and never use dating apps, dating didn't seem fun ever. Like trying to meet your person, going out to bars, talking to strangers.

6:36Some people enjoy that and some people don't. And I think that's the same of dating apps. But dating apps do cause, I think, specific issues. One of them being the focus maybe on physical appearance and making very snap judgments of people. If you don't like someone's pictures, if you don't like what they said in their bio, you just left swipe and you never see them again. Whereas if you're meeting someone in person or maybe in a third space like your church or a community center, you get to know someone. And you know they're not just their physical looks or their first impression. Do you know what?

7:11I have never thought about it in those terms, that the 20th century version of dating wasn't a lot of fun. Because I suppose, given it was the only way you could do it, there wasn't really any other option. And now we are in a world where there are myriad ways that you can meet people. I just find it ironic that the one that seems to be on the down is actually meeting people face to face. I think dating apps have been a boon for a lot of different groups of people. Maybe if someone is neurodivergent or disabled, it's given them a way to meet people as the internet overall has given them a way to connect with a community that maybe they don't otherwise have access to.

7:49But for other people, face-to-face dating is definitely down. And I just spoke to a dating coach for men who said that by and large, his young Gen Z clients, they need help learning how to speak to women in person, learning how to go up to a woman without sounding creepy and starting a conversation. I asked him what the generational difference between his clients were. And he said his Gen X clients have no problem talking to people in person and starting that conversation. And it really is an issue with young adults who grew up online. Let's focus very specifically then on Wolfhard and the undeniable impact that she has made on the world.

8:29In terms of Bumble, did it ultimately improve women's experience of online dating? I'm not sure about that. Women have spoken about negative experiences, not just on Bumble, but dating apps as a whole. And I don't necessarily think that only women being able to message first has helped with that. But Bumble, along with other dating apps, I'm thinking specifically of Tinder and Hinge, do utilize technology to try to help some of these negative consequences of dating apps. For instance, Bumble has a feature where if its AI detects that someone sent a picture that might be a nude, it blurs it so that the receiver won't be able to see it, at least right away.

9:12So there are features to mitigate these issues, but there are still issues that come up that, say, if you're in person at a bar, you can't really get naked in the same way and offend someone the way that you can so easily on a dating app. We've talked already about the negative side of the online dating world and the fact a lot of young people do find it more difficult to communicate with each other face to face. I'm wondering which came first. Was it the dating apps or was it this kind of inability among the younger generation to sit down and hold a conversation? I don't think it's just dating apps.

9:46I think a lot of it is social media in general. And I don't think COVID lockdowns help with this, especially for people who came of age at that time. The youngest of Gen Z, they turned 18 during COVID lockdowns. Like they started dating online. So it was really difficult for them. But even so, a lot of young adults now grew up with the internet. And they grew up at a time of this lessening of third spaces. I always use the example of malls, which are very popular in the US. But now I can go to a mall and they ask for ID because you cannot be under 17 without an adult supervisor. So it's like kids can't hang out together in person.

10:30Where else are they going to go? They're going to go on social media. And I do think dating apps are just a consequence of when you turn 18 and when you want to date, the first instinct is to download a dating app. If I wasn't confused enough already by this whole stuff, Bumble is now preparing to go away from swiping and is testing an AI matchmaker called Bee. You're going to have to explain this to me. I'm very curious as well, because Bumble is being pretty cagey about the specifics about B. But from what we know, as you mentioned, it seems to be an AI matchmaker where there won't be swiping.

11:07Whitney Wolfhard said recently in an interview that they are removing the swipe feature probably by the end of 2026. So it seems like AI is going to use whatever data that its users give them to do the matchmaking. and they also mentioned that it'll be like an AI assistant, which again, I'm not sure exactly what it means, but it seems like they're putting the matching from the user's hands into this AI-powered experience. How revolutionary do you actually think that is? Because although I have not dipped my toe into this world, I can remember what online dating started off like. You had to fill in a questionnaire, you sent it in, and then the algorithm, in inverted commas, would fix you up with a match.

11:51ultimately, isn't that exactly what she's talking about doing here? It does seem very similar. Dating has been algorithmically driven for years now on these apps and other dating apps have also started using AI features. Tinder has introduced an AI matchmaker as well. But what does seem different is that Bumble is removing the swipe entirely. And from what I see on social media, that seems immensely unpopular. And it seems like daters don't like this total removal of agency. Okay, so if they don't like the removal of the swipe feature, how on earth are they going to feel about the AI feature being added?

12:31I'm honestly not sure because when I speak to human matchmakers about their clients, they say that sometimes they're unhappy with their matches because they have their own idea about their type and what they want. But some people do put a lot of trust in these AI platforms. So I think we're going to see a range of reactions to this. But by and large, it does seem like there's a negative reaction to this. And when I spoke to a separate dating coach who I think mostly works with women, she said that no one likes the idea of AI taking over dating. Look, if the removal of the swipe feature is unpopular, people are unsure about AI.

13:12Why on earth is Whitney Wolfhard making these changes? I think Whitney Wolfhard is seeing the writing on the wall that people are getting sick of these dating apps and she's trying to try something new. With the knowledge here that Bumble is not doing the best financially, its stock is down, I think, 96 % since its IPO five years ago. So direct revenue and paying users are consistently down, downloads are down. So I think she is trying to save Bumble, basically. So this may be less about anticipating the future of dating and more about restoring some profits to Bumble. I could see that being behind the change in the user experience of Bumble, yes.

13:55See, I'm now beginning to wonder if Wolfhard, rather than making dating easier, has actually made it more difficult. that when you have the capability to say, I will date no one who is under the height of six foot, you are dismissing huge swathes of the population contained within might be, again, in inverted commas, the one. I agree with you, but I also think it's a result of just this modern world in general. I think in generations past, when you stayed in your hometown, when you attended the same church for decades of your life with the same people, you had a smaller pool, so you weren't as picky.

14:30So I do think it's not all on Whitney Wolf heard, but I also do think that dating apps have made people more picky. What's your view about potential concerns about privacy? I think it's a big concern. On dating apps, you are giving such vulnerable information, not just biometric data, not just your face, not just your age and location and education, but also your sexual orientation. You are giving so much of yourself to these apps and we really don't know where it's going. A lot of these apps say they give you the option to opt out of selling data, but it is definitely a concern, especially when you are giving an app such vulnerable data like this.

15:23I hit 200 on a scratcher. Did the scratcher come to your house and hand you a check? No. How many scratchers did you hit to get that? I hit a button on Carvana.com once. Okay, that's fair. It's like the lottery, except you always win. Not like the lottery at all, actually. Exactly! Inexplicably good. Offers worth bragging about. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pickup fees may apply.

15:57Can I paint a doomsday scenario for you? How long before an AI boyfriend or girlfriend becomes the norm rather than just something that perhaps you will have heard about that few people on the internet falling in love with a language model in the past? I think true connections are made face to face. And I don't think that AI boyfriends and girlfriends are satisfactory. I do think there is a lot to be said about physical connection and that emotional connection in person that you really cannot get over text. I do think a lot of people are turning to AI boyfriends and girlfriends, and there are a myriad of issues with that.

16:33One being that they're so agreeable and you really don't learn how to deal with conflict. So my hope is that never becomes the norm, but I also don't foresee it being an issue because I think if dating apps tell us anything, it's that people do want to connect. They just might have trouble doing so in person. Okay, so as someone who works in this area and works in tech, where would you put Wilford against some of the other giants of the tech world? Almost all of him will be men. I think Whitney Wilford did something extraordinary with Bumble. We've talked a lot about the negatives of dating apps, but I do think there are some positives, like being introduced to people you would never meet in person.

17:16There have been many marriages and relationships that come out of Bumble. So I do think there have been positives. and I do think Winnie Wolf heard we'll have a legacy. It's yet to be seen how this AI experience will work and what will happen with Bumble and whether it will sell. But I think she definitely stands as someone who has done something positive for people. And Anna, without meaning to get too personal here, what has been your experience of the world of online dating? I was on dating apps for seven years and I met some great people. I didn't meet my partner online, but I met her on Twitter.

17:52when it was still Twitter. And it was because we're both journalists and we both followed each other. And I'm really of the opinion that any app can be a dating app, but ultimately I'm very glad I'm not on dating apps anymore. And I do feel for people who are just, as we've discussed, dating, I think is tough in general, even if you don't use dating apps at all, and you solely try to meet people in person. I think it's tough. I need to interject to this point so that Everyone doesn't believe I'm a complete technophobe. My partner and I were boyfriend and girlfriend when we were at university when we were 18.

18:24Fast forward a number of years and I get an email out of the blue. That started our relationship again. But for those who live in that kind of pre-internet world or from that pre-internet world who are coming to this later in life, what advice would you give to them about how to approach these apps? Well, that's such a lovely story. Thank you for sharing that. So is she. She's lovely too. Oh, that's awesome. My advice would be to not take things so personally when you don't get a match or when people unmatch you. And I do think persistence is key and staying with it and trying different things.

19:00You have to upload multiple photos and good photos of yourself and not just like selfies or group photos or what have you. And you need to fill out that bio. And I know it It could be cringe or you don't want to. But yeah, be willing to be open and vulnerable. And I think people will receive that and do the same with you. Anna, it's been a pleasure talking to you. Thanks so much. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And that is your lot for today. Indeed, for this week, and it's been a busy week on This Is Why, a particular favorite of mine. I spoke with Bob Harris about the untimely death of Dolly Parton.

19:37You can find that by scrolling back and do let us know your thoughts. why at sky.uk we're back the other side of the weekend till then take care