Why can't TikTok just get rid of 'joyriding' videos?

0:02Sky News, the full story first.

0:11Social media didn't invent joyriding and we can't say it caused the A66 crash. But the government says the platforms could stop letting it be glorified today. And this is why.

0:30Hello, Ed Conway here. Here is what might sound like a slightly random question. What do AirPods, bananas and a pair of shoddily made running trainers from the 1970s have in common? On the surface, not very much. But on my podcast, Stuff Matters, I will uncover the deeper stories behind each of them. You will see how together they tell a fascinating new story about the world we live in. The first full series of Stuff Matters is out now. Just search for it on your podcast app and follow.

1:06Hi everyone, Neil here. And let's just get one thing out of the way right at the start. We just do not know that anybody was filming the journey which ended with seven people dead on the A66. We can't say that TikTok, or even social media more broadly, played any part in that crash. What we do know is that a Volkswagen Passat was driven the wrong way down the road before colliding with a police car. There are reports that older dangerous driving videos have been linked to one of the people in the Passat. We can also say this isn't happening in isolation. Six days earlier, five teenagers died in another wrong way crash in Ireland, where, once again, previous joyriding videos have become part of the story.

1:50Now, none of that proves cause and effect, but it is perfectly accurate to say that cars are being stolen, raced, chased and driven against traffic with the footage then posted online. And the government's response is pretty blunt.

2:04Will Guyatt:There is content on social media today that celebrates that type of appalling driving, dangerous driving that puts people's lives at risk. Social media companies could take it down today if they choose to. They know what's on their platform. They know how their algorithm works. Take it down. So how easy is this material to find? Are the algorithms pushing it? And what changes when joyriding stops being just a thrill and becomes a performance? I sat down with technology commentator Will Guyatt and Professor Mary Aitken, forensic cyber psychologist from the University of East London.

2:42well mary lovely to have you both on um well let's start with you what sort of stuff are we seeing online related to this phenomenon and just how easy is it to find yeah this is the challenge

2:53Will Guyatt:in that the media are now talking about this being a trend and i'm not quite sure where a trend begins um that it's undoubtable and it's provable that there has been a rise in videos of people driving recklessly in vehicles. That trend appears to have started in Ireland. Irish gangs trying to one-up each other with dangerous driving. Much of that content gets moderated and removed, which is the challenge of knowing just how big the problem is. And since the incident happened in Ireland, TikTok have been working directly with the Irish government to remove content that breaks those rules. And if you were saying to me, is there lots and lots and lots of examples of bad behaviour of people driving the wrong side up a motorway?

3:40Will Guyatt:The answer is no. I have seen plenty of examples of dangerous driving and one-upmanship, mostly amongst Irish gangs. What is it then that you think we are actually looking at? Is this a recognisable online subculture or is it just a collection of unrelated dangerous driving videos then? This stuff is obviously being shown in the algorithm and it's probably being treated in the same fashion as any other dangerous dash cam video, you know, somebody driving and behaving erratically. So people in the UK are clearly seeing that content from Ireland before it gets removed from the platform. And I think that's very much the challenge here is that people are seeing this kind of content and are therefore thinking we could do something similar, get loads of likes and interest for what we're doing.

4:27Will Guyatt:I'm the social media expert, but I do not know when society got so broken if people are chasing that kind of like and attention on these platforms. But when it comes to the people watching this sort of material or having it appear on their timelines, I mean, are they chasing this sort of material? What role is the algorithm that you've just mentioned playing in getting this material to a broader audience? I think anybody that likes content of dangerous driving or dash cam footage or crash footage, which gets shared a lot on these platforms, will be seeing this kind of stuff. You also get other signals.

5:00Will Guyatt:So if it's being liked or if people are commenting on it, or if people are sharing it, that also does the same. TikTok themselves said that for the first half of the year globally, when it came to content like this, 99.1 % of it was taken down before it was reported. Now, it's hard to prove or disprove something when a social network says a figure like that. We've also heard of a number of other pieces of content being taken down. But I think it also shows you the challenge in that if this kind of content gets posted, a lot of this dangerous driving and bad driving is typically late night or out of hours.

5:37Will Guyatt:And therefore there might not be anybody in the European territories in the office to take it down. Is it then relying on AI? Who else is taking it down? There's all sorts of questions that sit behind the scenes here because the social networks don't come on podcasts like this. They don't come and talk to Sky News or other news organisations about how they make certain decisions. And we're left to fill in the gaps. But just drilling down into the algorithm again, when this sort of material does reach a broader audience, is the algorithm responding to a pre-existing interest in material of that type?

6:09Or is it actually helping to create and intensify that interest then?

6:14Will Guyatt:Yeah, it will be intensifying that. So unless somebody at the ByteDance end has stepped in in the last few days since this has been a hot topic, if people are searching for that topic on their feeds and are searching for crashes or are searching for, you know, the most ghoulish, tragic kind of footage that people are hoping to seemingly find, that will be shown in more people's feeds. But that's why I also believe, as of now, I think there is now very much a human moderation and intervention in this from ByteDance because of the sheer attention. Given the negative coverage and everything else that's going on in the world with social media and the responsibility of social media companies at the moment, I'm pretty confident there's a room full of people somewhere in Europe specifically looking for this stuff actively right now.

6:56Mary, to you now, look, at the most basic level, why are people doing this? And indeed, why are people watching it? So what we're witnessing is not just traditional or what we used to call back in the day joyriding and now describe as reckless driving. What we're witnessing is a phenomenon linked to what's called the clout economy. And what that is doing in the incidence of these behaviours, it's taking localised thrill-seeking crime and turning it into potentially deadly social media spectacle, produced and distributed for views, likes and followers. So, again, if we go back to the real world example of what we used to describe as traditional joyriding, the audience might have been local, a few friends, but now the audience can number in millions.

7:50And what that does is it fundamentally changes the psychology of the behaviour. The risk itself becomes the content and each video sets a new threshold that somebody else can try to strive to exceed. And this content has a very recognizable escalation pattern. So as a cyber psychologist, we argue that human behavior mutates or changes in cyber contexts. So what you get is you get different effects. You get ODE, the online disinhibition effect, which dictates that people will do things in cyberspace that they won't do in the real world. You also get the power of anonymity online or perceived anonymity.

8:40And I believe both of these entities are drivers of this behaviour. The point about that is that when we see this amplification and escalation, we have to think about the symbiotic relationship between what we describe as cyberspace, social media, the online world, and the real world. And what that means is that what happens in cyberspace impacts the real world. And what happens in the real world impacts cyberspace. And therefore, we need to address any online behaviours that might be driving this sort of phenomenon. Even if it's not established as a trend, one lost life is one life too many. To what extent, in your mind, is this linked to the fact that, you know, there are generations now for whom life is lived simultaneously online and IRL in real life?

9:39Well, what we have now is at least two generations that have grown up online, and that can fundamentally change behaviour. I was one of the principal investigators at UEL University of East London in one of the largest studies of youth, 16 to 19 year olds, in terms of cyber criminality. And what we found was almost 50 % admitted to having engaged in a cyber crime in the previous year. Now, a lot of that might be considered as benign crime, for example, illegal downloading of music or videos or crack software. However, we saw significant numbers, for example, engaging in cyber fraud, engaging in stalking.

10:27And that is very concerning because it points to the fact that in cyberspace, there are very, very limited consequences for criminal behavior. But in terms of the behaviors under the microscope today, I mean, surely someone doesn't start out by thinking, do you know what I'm going to do tonight? I'm going to go off and I'm going to drive down the motorway the wrong way. I mean, when does the process of people beginning to think, you know, this is OK, this is acceptable behavior. When does that begin? It's something that governments are particularly concerned about in terms of under 16-year-olds because they are particularly impressionable.

11:04And while what we're talking about today has not been scientifically established as a trend, what we do know is that copycat phenomenology exists in other areas of harmful behaviour. And over time, we will have more information. But what we see is that these young people, and this is an observation, again, because we don't have the scientific evidence about what's happening in this context at this point. But it would seem, and this is my opinion, my expert opinion, that these young people have one foot in the real world and one foot in cyberspace while they're engaging in the behavior. So they're not thinking clearly, arguably, about the real world risks of crashing, of injury, of death, they're focused on the likes.

11:56And that's a powerful behavioural driver. Mary, from a psychologist's point of view, what does the online audience add to the experience that these kids are having when they are participating in these dangerous acts? Well, it's similar to other behaviours, for example, such as youth hacking, in that there can be kudos associated with the behaviour. The behaviour in itself can be intrinsically rewarding for perpetrators in terms of likes, views, followers that provide visible and immediate social rewards. And the algorithmic recommendation systems can take the footage beyond the offenders peer group and expose it to large numbers of young users.

12:38And that in turn can generate copycat type behavior. Arguably, the young people who are capturing this content are lost in cyberspace in this disinhibited state, posing great risk, not just to their own lives, but to the lives of other people who are using the roads. You mentioned already the fact that these social media companies are trying to get on the front foot on this, taking down material, dangerous material, the sorts of things that we've been discussing. I mean, the government minister, Luke Pollard, who did the media rounds this morning, said that, you know, these companies know what's on their platforms, they know how the algorithm works.

13:13Is it really that easy for these companies to get rid of this material?

13:17Will Guyatt:No, but more should be done. And I think that's the case. And there was an interesting report in Ireland from last week in the Irish Times. And it was suggested that one of the five teens killed in that M9 crash had previously posted a video to his TikTok, searching on TikTok for how to graft a specific type of car and graft being the slang in Ireland for how to steal it. So you would have wondered whether more can be done to keep an eye on this particular kind of content. The challenge is, though, it's a whack-a-mole scenario. They start focusing for joyriding content and there'll be another trend or something else that they're not fully across and that they then need to leap onto.

13:53Will Guyatt:The social networks need to do more. I'm hugely disappointed that TikTok didn't show up in Ireland to talk to politicians about the scenario. If you're operating in these countries, you should own these situations now. I think what's interesting is what happens from here, whether or not now we've seen these cases. Do other young people think this is their ticket to social media notoriety, clout chasing, etc., as Mary said? I wonder what's next. So it's seeing how the social networks now respond. Let's not forget that in the US, completely unrelated to this, there's been a court case and TikTok have just settled there.

14:31Will Guyatt:But what's different about that case to everything else is the Department of Justice said that TikTok had come to the table. They'd changed their processes. They were far more collegiate. Those are statements that the Department of Justice in the US have not issued towards Meta or any of the other tech companies. So let's just hope that they can show this maturity and work closely with authorities in the UK and in Ireland and wherever else they need to really crack down on this. I have to absolutely challenge the statement that this content is difficult to take down. It is not difficult to take down.

15:04You have multimodal content moderation systems that can actually identify unique features of this behavior. So oncoming traffic, visible emergency lights and sirens, captions or hashtags associated with stolen cars and joyriding, and related uploads from connected accounts and earlier removals. There are companies that actively do this outside of the social media companies. Overnight, we could create a behavioral profile around this behavior, a content profile around this behavior, and remove in the 90th percentile of this content and purge the Internet in Ireland and the UK of this content. What is lacking is the policy will to do so.

15:53That's what's lacking.

15:55Will Guyatt:Will? Two different opinions. There are tools available. The social networks do not use them. The social networks are not compelled to use them in order to take this stuff down. And I also feel that it's very easy to say social networks can pull these things down. Yet, continually in situations like this, we find ourselves with content not being removed. The sheer volume of content on these platforms is a huge problem. But going back to what you say, I don't disagree with the idea that it should be easy to find this stuff. For example, child sexual abuse material. All of these companies have all collaborated and been able to work with other outside organisations to greatly reduce the amount of that that finds its way onto the open internet.

16:38I am sensing some common ground between the two of you on that point, but Mary, you are going to come in. The key to what we're both discussing here is the premise of self-regulation, is that these companies uniquely have been allowed to self-regulate, which is extraordinary given how other industry and enterprise are centrally regulated by government.

17:06Hello, Ed Conway here. Here's what might sound like a slightly random question. What do AirPods, bananas and a pair of shoddily made running trainers from the 1970s have in common. On the surface, not very much. But on my podcast, Stuff Matters, I will uncover the deeper stories behind each of them. You will see how together they tell a fascinating new story about the world we live in. The first full series of Stuff Matters is out now. Just search for it on your podcast app and follow.

17:42Well, a point that you made earlier, whether or not this emerges as a trend, whether or not this isn't an online subculture. The fact of the matter is, as you've previously alluded to, you know, give it five minutes and there'll be another one cropping up, that there'll be another example of outlandish, risky, dangerous, potentially criminal behaviour that someone points a camera at and shares online.

18:02Will Guyatt:This is the really interesting thing, another unrelated but still in its own way related story this week, is the story of the meta glasses. They've been available for years. Everybody's now waking up to the fact that you can do some really creepy stuff with that and start pointing cameras at people and recording footage in the street that maybe you shouldn't be filming. So we're at this sort of weird stage where we see all this stuff happens, yet, as Mary pointed out, there isn't really any kind of protocol or legislation in place to actively, you know, stop these sorts of things. A question to both of you then, as we kind of come to a conclusion, I mean, is it simply the case that these social media companies are too big, are too powerful, that the scale of the media that is being pumped out every day means that, frankly, there is no way that we can prevent ahead of time this sort of stuff happening.

18:53Will you first?

18:53Will Guyatt:My view on this is, yes, they should be broken up. Yes, they're too big. But there is nobody capable and able of dealing with it. Ofcom, for example, are trying to police and protect social media in the UK. They're absolutely overwhelmed with the number of complaints and proposed investigations that they're supposed to be doing. they then go and fine US social networks, you stick the visa up at them and don't pay the fine. So you find yourself in a situation of going, who actually does have the teeth to handle this and control it? You can't get the genie back in the bottle and stop young people or adults or everybody using social media in one way or another.

19:27Will Guyatt:But to pretend that you can suddenly leap in with some robust form of regulation that makes all of these organisations accountable is almost impossible. Because you also find in these situations, Europe started making noise about protecting young people and moderating social media. And then Donald Trump suggested he'd introduce a trade war against Europe if that happened. So you find yourselves in a very confused state at the moment, where US states can sue the heck out of social networks and get big fines. People in Europe and other territories suggest that. The US suggests that they might be unfair and that they may consider, you know, tariffs and trade wars.

20:04Will Guyatt:So we're in a very, very disparate place as to how this can all fit together. But back to your original point, yes, 100%, social networks too big, haven't taken their responsibility seriously enough, and have outsourced most of the responsibility to artificial intelligence. So not good enough. Mary, given that there was literal blood on Ireland's roads, and given the fact that social media companies directly linked to that blood just didn't show up as Will has been saying, What can be done? I make no apology for being pro-social order in the real world. I certainly will not apologise for being pro-social order in cyberspace.

20:41We have other shared environments that we police successfully, like maritime, aviation and even space. We can regulate cyberspace. We can regulate these companies. And everybody panics about the negatives of AI. Well, the good news in terms of AI is it is eminently useful in this scenario to take down billions of pieces of content if necessary. And that can be done very easily by creating a behavioral template around the content, around the audio, and actually then using that to take down the content. However, the social media companies have to comply with that to allow access to their systems to take it down.

21:30And when I say social media companies have to comply, they have to be forced to comply. And regulators and parliamentary committees also need the right experts in the room. You know, when I see politicians attempting to cross-examine representatives from social media companies and the social media representatives sort of sit there listening to the question and you can see almost a smirk of like, is this question as simple as it sounds? They can run rings around politicians who don't have the technical knowledge or expertise to interrogate them properly. Mary, Will, been lovely to chat to both of you.

22:10Thanks for your time. And that's a lot for today. Before we go, though, TikTok has said its policies prohibit content that could cause significant physical harm, including dangerous driving, and is actively removing videos and accounts that break the rules. The company said between January and March 2026, 99.8 % of the content removed for violating those policies it took down proactively. Do let us know your thoughts on today's episode. Why at sky.uk is the email address. We're back tomorrow.