Why Diana’s brother is making bombshell claims about the King

0:02Sky News, the full story first.

0:12Diana's brother has written an incendiary account of her life. Buckingham Palace is questioning his judgment and his memory. And this is why.

0:27I'm Sam Cates. And I'm Anne McElvoy. Britain has a new Prime Minister and every day from 7.45am we'll help you make sense of the day ahead in just 20 minutes. That means taking you inside Westminster with our forensic insight, sharp analysis and the stories behind the headlines. From the battles in Parliament to the conversations shaping government. We'll set you up each morning for the day ahead in British politics. Hit follow and listen to Politics at Sam and Anne's wherever you get your podcasts.

1:01I pledge that we, your blood family, will do all we can to continue the imaginative and loving way in which you were steering these two exceptional young men, so that their souls are not simply immersed by duty and tradition. That was Westminster Abbey back in September 1997. Earl Spencer remembering his sister, and also delivering a rather pointed message to the royal family sitting in front of him. Almost 30 years on, he's having another go, this time in the form of a book, Swan Song, Diana, My Sister. In it, he claims that then-Prince Charles sounded giddily elated after Diana's death. So Buckingham Palace has issued what I can only describe as a frankly extraordinary response.

1:46Sky's Royal Correspondent is Laura Bundick. Just a warning, we will be mentioning suicide on today's podcast. Laura, let's start if we can with the response from Buckingham Palace. Just read it to us because I read it and I thought they sounded livid. This is the full statement. While we do not comment on books as a matter of principle, His Majesty is mindful that the pain of fraternal grief can cloud reason, affect judgment and colour memory in ways others do not recognise even many years after such a loss. I think anyone who read that took a sharp intake of breath. This wasn't just a response.

2:29It was as strong as they could have gone. And it would definite echoes, weren't they, of the recollections may vary statement that came from the late Queen after the Oprah Winfrey interview by the Sussexes. But this was that and then some. It made very, very clear at this point that the sort of accusations that had been made, and perhaps they were expecting to be made as more extracts were released of this book, was something they couldn't sit back and stay silent on. I mean, normally, yes, that would be the mantra. When Harry's memoir came out, remember, with all those massive attacks about the palace, the various individuals within his family, nothing was said by anybody.

3:08But this was different and very different. Could we, though, describe this as one of those non-denial denials? I mean, where in the statement that you have just read out is the palace saying none of this is true? Well, the fact that others do not recognise suggests very much that the king got wind of what was being said. and you can only imagine exploded and wanted to make it very clear that this was not a version of a conversation between two men that he remembered being said the way Earl Spencer is recounting. If the allegation is false, you can understand the feudy because in essence, Earl Spencer says that Charles was happy to heed of Diana's death.

3:52Giddily elated like a lottery winner. This was the phone call that the then Prince Charles made to Charles Spencer in the aftermath of Diana's death, whereas all the other callers he'd been getting were offering condolences and help. He says Prince Charles was giddily elated. Those are his exact words. That bit we heard about how when they were discussing the funeral plans and a disagreement about whether or not those two young princes, William and Harry, he should walk behind Diana's coffin. The king hissed, as Earl Spencer writes, will forget her soon enough. Given the allegations, you can understand the tone of the response from the palace.

4:33But it doesn't stop there though, does it? There was a revelation about what Charles said the day before their wedding. That although he loved her, he was not in love with her. But Earl Spencer seems to be saying there was no way out at that point. That even talking to her own father, Diana was told that's it. What can you do now? He writes about how in those five months leading up to the wedding, the king had called her chubby and that she was in the throes of an eating disorder for five months. How in later years, she drove herself more than once to beachy head, contemplating, he says, ending it all.

5:13It was only the thought of her two sons that stopped her from doing anything more. These aren't small swipes. These are absolutely enormous broadsides. There was one other allegation made in the extracts released so far that Spencer appears to almost gloss over. And that is the revelation that Diana told him that Charles was in love with his valet. What do we know about this? Because he doesn't go on to mention any more about it in the book. You can only imagine that his editor had a red pen to hand when this allegation was being made. That is all so far that we know of that accusation. But I think it is building up a picture of such raw, visceral and personal.

5:55And I think I would go as far as to say hatred, because not only have we seen the House of Windsor and the Spencers publicly in the past, perhaps disagreeing, but it's clear that all these years on, that animosity has not gone anywhere. It's been simmering under the surface for R. Spencer. Before we go on with what has been discussed in this book, tell me just a bit more about the man making these claims. Who is Charles Spencer beyond being Diana's brother? I mean, that's who he is. That's why we know him. On paper, I was going to say your communal garden aristocrat, but he inherited this title, the huge ancestral home, Althorpe in Northamptonshire.

6:37But with that, of course, came that family connection, the younger brother of one of the most famous women in the world, Diana. And what's interesting is that over the years, he has stayed fairly silent about her life and her death following the eulogy he gave at her funeral, which many saw as this huge attack, not just on the media, but on the royal family as well. Just remind us, because I remember watching that at the time, and although significantly younger, The words still carried a hell of a lot of weight, but as you say, pointed criticism, not just of the people assembled at Westminster Abbey for the funeral itself, but of the media, the people that he ultimately blames for her death.

7:19Yeah, he was looking the royal family in the eye. He was looking the congregation in the eye and he was looking at the eyes of the millions watching, not just in Britain, but around the world. That audience heard direct criticism at the royal family, talking about how to Prince William and Prince Harry, your blood family, i.e. the Spencers, are the ones that will carry on Diana's legacy and protecting you and becoming the men she would have wanted you to become. Huge criticism, too, of how her title had been taken away, but she remained classless, as he put it. So even without being Princess Diana, she was a classless example of public duty and public life.

8:03Would it be fair then to describe that as the moment where he essentially adopted the mantle of being Diana's public defender, the man who would maintain her memory in the public consciousness? I think, yes, since Diana's death, it feels like he's become a bit of a custodian of her memory. Not only is she buried on his country estate in Northamptonshire, very poignantly on a small island, inaccessible. But I feel that, yes, he was the closest of the siblings to her in that there were two older sisters. Him and Diana grew up closer in age and therefore closer to each other. and it's been said in the past, hasn't it, how when they had to make difficult journeys, they had parents who divorced very bitterly and had to make journeys between the two parents' houses.

8:48They would go up on the train together, that sort of thing. So there was comfort there. I think also it's fair to say that like any brother and sister, they didn't always see eye to eye and that's probably no exaggeration in this case. But I think, yeah, if we're talking about Charles Spencer being some sort of cultural custodian of Diana, I think that's not far off the mark. Well, let's just talk about the broader reception that these remarks have made, because as we say, they are being serialised in the mail at the moment. How is it landing so far? I think you have to look at where is it landing and who is it landing with and how do they respond to that?

9:21I think it was very obvious within minutes that we had the statement from the palace. There is absolute anger about it. I mean, behind the scenes, a furious family, I would say. The royal family in public, though, very much having to get on with the diary and the duties. but they are not happy when it comes to the king because this is so personal about the king he's landed badly and remember this is a man who divided opinion for so very long didn't he after they split up he was blamed in the eyes of many for the end of their marriage perhaps even blamed for her death in some respects as well I think the public interviews they both did Diana and Charles speak for themselves don't they they are long in the memory but I think the fact we're still having conversations about all of this now shows that yes 29 years is a long time ago but actually there are still some very very raw emotions when it comes to this what i think is perhaps more interesting in some ways is how this is for prince william and prince harry yeah i mean i have to admit i have been pondering how they as the sons i mean and we always think of those those pictures of them marching behind diana's coffin how they would react given the fact that they have both carried the death of their mother with them, very, very obviously for most of their lives now, of course.

10:36I know. And I think just looking back at those pictures of the funeral procession, those of us who remember it, remember looking at those two young boys, Harry was 12, William was 15, and your heart went out to them. And now we're hearing revelations in Al Spencer's book where he's claiming that one of the reasons they were all walking behind the coffin, because there was a genuine fear that the public who'd been lining the streets of that procession might shout out at Charles, as in Prince Charles then, angrily in response. So the kids were there as a kind of human shield? That's one of the allegations in the book.

11:08I mean, a lot has been said as to why were they there? Why should they take part? It's clear R. Spencer was disagreeing and pushing back with Charles. Ultimately, the palace was the one running the show when it came to her funeral. And it was very much the Spencers being Charles. As R. Spencer claims, they had to fall in line with that. Although, let's be honest, he was given the most enormous platform when he was allowed to deliver that eulogy. So yes and no in that respect. But yeah, you think about William and Harry now, especially in light of their massive falling out, but you think, what are they thinking?

11:37I mean, Harry we know is really close to his uncle. Harry was aware of the book, not aware of its contents. He knew about it. He was aware of it. He hasn't read it. That's what we've been told. Take that as you will. We know that Harry and his family, Megan and the kids, spent time on Earl Spencer's estate in Althorpe in the summer holidays. Megan posted pictures that were pretty easily identifiable there. So there is a closeness there. And we have seen Harry back at an engagement where the Spencer family supported him. So he's close to that side of the family. William, it's tricky. It's really, really hard for him.

12:08There's absolutely no comment from Kensington Palace about this. You would think he would be aware that his uncle was writing a book. And by nature of that, you would think both boys would be aware that it was not going to be a cosy read for anyone, but it maybe has gone further than any of them were expecting. But what then is the relationship between William and Earl Spencer? I mean, do we know? Because obviously Harry has been there, but William is very much more allied to his father than Harry is currently. Yes, I think that's publicly obviously very true. From what I hear is that Harry's relationship with the king, they are in touch.

12:44They've always been in touch. As for William and his connections with the Spencer side of the family, you've seen him attending a funeral for example and the likes there there's nothing to suggest he's not close to the spencer family just how close i don't know

13:05the most excruciating period of politics that i can ever remember i have to say as a government minister never quite sure what the cabinet office did but just hold meetings. It's gone down like a bucket of sick. I kind of thought that decades of experience meant that you weren't swallowing this vapid. Oh, blimey! Hello and welcome to Electoral Dysfunction with me, Beth Rigby. Me, Ruth Davidson. Me, Harriet Harman. And me, Jess Phillips. Electoral Dysfunction, wherever you get your podcasts.

13:42Why? Why has El Spencer written this book? I mean, okay, first and foremost, what is he saying is the reason he's written this book? The reason he says is that as we approach the 30th anniversary of Diana's death, a lot of people are going to be saying a lot of things, column inches, videos, is everything said and written. You can expect all of that about Diana. This is his chance, as he puts it, to put things straight, to correct untruths. That's his word, untruths. This is his opportunity writing this book. It's interesting, isn't it? He doesn't need the money, let's put it that way. Why does he feel the need to go over all of this?

14:19Is it because, as I said, it's been there under the surface, simmering away? Why drag it all up though? I mean, it's the timing that I think will raise significant numbers of eyebrows because, of course, next year is the 30th anniversary. This tees that up very well. But also, we talked about it, Harry and Meghan returning and for whatever purpose, appearing to ally themselves with that part of the family. Look, we are expecting lots and lots of coverage as we approach the anniversary of her death. I think Earl Spencer wants to have some kind of final word on it. That's why he's released the book.

14:55I mean, it's interesting. He's chosen the Daily Mail to serialise it because Harry and the Daily Mail are no bedfellows, are they? Well, no. I mean, how much does Harry owe the mail group at the moment? I mean, it's several million, isn't it? So there's all that in the background as well. It's fascinating that this book is out. And the potential for damage, I think, is quite great. Let's look at the King in terms of that damage. Reputationally, it is bad for him. They've issued the statement. Will they be forced to say anything further? Not at the moment, but let's see. But I do also wonder if the public will view this slightly differently now, because I think there is a much more sympathetic public to the King.

15:34We are 30 years on nearly since Diana's death and longer than that since they split up so acrimoniously. What will the public make of it? Because we now have Charles as king, as opposed to Prince of Wales. He's in a very different place. I think there is an acceptance that Camilla makes him happy, that together, they're a happy couple seemingly. They're a still, and you will meet them whenever you go on a royal engagement, the diehard fans for whom Diana will always be the queen. They don't accept Camilla, but I think they're in a minority perhaps now. So it's hard for the king and it's difficult.

16:09Is it ultimately really damaging? I think we just cannot definitively say yet. Has there been anyone out there firefighting this on behalf of Charles? I mean, has anyone suggested evidence to counter the allegations that are in here? I've seen a couple of people talking about Charles are very clearly upset at Diana's funeral, but that's the beginning and the end of it, as far as I can see. Are we going to have to see more close friends of here has put forward to start giving his side of events. I don't know. Or would they rather let this fire burn itself out if indeed it does? But it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

16:44It will be truly fascinating. It is a big moment. I think we can safely say that these are two families still at war over the memory of Diana. And for me, William and Harry are very much caught in the crossfire of all of that. What do you think this will do for the King's relationship with his children? These are all conversations that only those at the end of the phone can genuinely say. Will it help his relationship with Harry? Will it help Harry and William's relationship? I've heard this discussed already. We don't know, do we? What will they be saying to each other? I think whatever they say will be kept as private as possible.

17:24You can only make guesses and in many ways, those sorts of conversations perhaps are best left in private between them. When the dust settles, and frankly, I don't think either of us are expecting the dust to settle anytime soon, who do you think emerges better in the eyes of the public? Charles III or Charles Spencer? Bearing in mind the fact, as you've already mentioned, Spencer has written a book talking about his dead sister's mental health, suicide attempts, spurned love, and so on, an intimate detail. But look at it this way. When it comes to reputation, who has more to lose? Charles Spencer lives the aristocratic life.

18:06He's a historian. He's got nothing to lose. He's a number of wives. He's got lots of children. He's got nothing to lose here, has he? What does he care if his reputation is slighted? There is much more at jeopardy for the king, you could argue. Laura, thanks very much. Thank you. And that is your lot for today. if you've been affected by any of the issues discussed on the podcast. You can always speak to the Samaritans. The details are in the notes attached to this programme. And of course, we always want to hear your views and you always have plenty when it comes to the royals. Why at sky.uk is the email.

18:38We're back the other side of the weekend. Till then, take care.

18:48I'm Sam Coates. And I'm Anne McElvoy. Britain has a new Prime Minister and every day from 7.45am we'll help you make sense to the day ahead in just 20 minutes. That means taking you inside Westminster with our forensic insight, sharp analysis and the stories behind the headlines. From the battles in Parliament to the conversations shaping government. We'll set you up each morning for the day ahead in British politics. Hit follow and listen to Politics at Sam & Anne's wherever you get your podcasts.