Why did Thomas Tuchel leave out some big England names?

0:02Thomas Tuchel:Sky News, the full story first.

0:11Thomas Tuchel:England could go all the way this World Cup thanks to a German, and this is why.

0:24Thomas Tuchel:I'm Sam Coates from Sky News. And I'm Anne McElvoy from Politico. Downing Street drama, leadership battles and policy U-turns. We're on it before it breaks. We take you straight into the rooms where the real political conversations are happening. Smart Insight, clear analysis in your feeds by 7.45am. So you start your morning fully brief for the day ahead in British politics. Hit follow and listen to politics at Sam & Anne's wherever you get your podcasts.

0:56Thomas Tuchel:Hi everyone, Neil here and in England at least the temperature is rising and not just because the sun's out thoughts are turning to the World Cup Scotland qualifying for the first time in almost 30 years England dreaming of a repeat of their winning run of 60 years ago we know now the 26 players who will be wearing the three lions manager Thomas Tuchel has raised plenty of eyebrows and not just because he's German. Some very big names have been left at home. Not that any England fan will be complaining if they actually win the thing. And if the cup truly is coming home, Tuchel's nationality will be very quickly forgotten.

1:33Rob Harris:You have just way less time with your team to build a team. That's actually what we're doing. And you try to do it within three days.

1:40Thomas Tuchel:And then there's a match, another three days, another match. And then your team is gone, which is very, very different from club football. So today we thought we'd learn a bit more about one of the best managers in the game. Our sports correspondent Rob Harris spoke to Tuchel after the squad was announced. I caught up with him backstage at the Wembley press conference. Rob, big old day for English football, but also a big old day for Thomas Tuchel himself. Take us back to the beginning. Where's he from?

2:07Rob Harris:Well, the fact is Thomas Tuchel is the first German manager of the England men's national team. and this is one of the biggest moments announcing his squad for a World Cup. But it's a moment that he'll be reflecting on how he reached this point because at the age of 25, his playing career ended through injury. And at that point, you've got an uncertain direction. He knew he wanted to get into coaching, but you couldn't imagine then that he'd end up in some of the biggest jobs in the world, Paris Saint-Germain, Chelsea, England.

2:38Thomas Tuchel:Okay, so he was a professional footballer. I mean, of what sort of level? Were we talking kind of international standards? Where did he fit in?

2:45Rob Harris:Tuchel was very much the lower levels in Germany. He's not one of these coaches who ever played for the top teams at all. Although we have seen coaches who never played at all at any high level, like Jose Mourinho. He was someone who was really studying the game. And the fact he wants to go on to take a business degree showed he was sort of broadening his horizons.

3:05Thomas Tuchel:So he got a business degree. We also know he worked behind a bar. I mean, how does he go from that to management?

3:11Rob Harris:Well at that point he starts to focus on coaching. He gets his opportunity at Stuttgart. Ralf Ranić was the person who appointed him as a youth coach. Ranić himself, managed Manchester United briefly in recent years, will be leading Austria at this World Cup. And he built his way through the youth teams. We do see some managers who go very much into the entry level right at the top suddenly. Like Mikel Arteta, his first senior management job was with Arsenal. Now he's won the Premier League and he completed his various coaching qualifications while getting those opportunities in the youth teams in Germany.

3:47Thomas Tuchel:So what kind of coach has he been? I mean, just running through some of the clubs that he's worked for. Mainz, Dortmund, Paris Saint-Germain, Chelsea, Bayern Munich. These are all very, very different clubs, very, very different setups. What did we learn about the manager, the coach that he would become through his kind of club level experience?

4:06Rob Harris:Well, he brings a certain attacking philosophy to his style of play, very much on the front foot, his back three, and it's that sort of tactical nous that has indeed him to the clubs that want to bring him on board.

4:20Thomas Tuchel:OK, so he's been signed by some of the biggest clubs in Europe, but he didn't always stay very long, did he?

4:25Rob Harris:You've got to cope in quite challenging situations at Paris Saint-Germain, so much pressure, particularly to deliver European glory, which you didn't manage to do because you dominate the French league, so adeptly and you know he has called things out he did at Paris Saint-Germain when he was talking about you might need to be more of a politician than a coach at times as well in that fraught relationship with the Qatari ownership but still when he left right at the end of 2020 he was at Chelsea within a few weeks and he did achieve great things and he won the Club World Cup in February of 2022 but then at his time at Chelsea it coincided with Roman Abramovich being sanctioned him being forced to sell the club new owners coming in and he was then out by September and you've got a real sense that things did spiral out of control quite quickly talk of disputes over transfer strategies over the summer I suppose it shows someone who's willing to stand his ground You might use some managers of just acquiescing with the ownership to secure your position for the long term.

5:31Rob Harris:But if he hasn't liked something, he has called it out. So he achieved great success in a short period of time, success that many managers might not get in their entire careers. But there's often this focus, particularly when he talked about the England job, about, well, how did it unravel so quickly?

5:45Thomas Tuchel:So was that his most successful period as a club manager? I mean, as we've already said, he has worked for some of the biggest names in world football.

5:53Rob Harris:Certainly in terms of winning the Champions League, the biggest prize of them all in Germany, winning the Bundesliga title with Bayern Munich, but that should be pretty much a given, given their strength there. Paris Saint-Germain winning the French League, that's also to be expected back-to-back titles, given the financial might of the club as well.

6:11Thomas Tuchel:I saw a quote about him that basically says, he can improve a team almost immediately, that there is a tactical nous that this man brings to the table in a pursuit of perfectionism that really can improve a squad, but maintaining relationships is a lot harder for him. I mean, is that a fair assessment?

6:27Rob Harris:Yes, and maybe not every manager is set up to stay at a club a decade like Pep Guardiola or 26 years like Sir Alex Ferguson at Manchester United and you can deliver short-term success, particularly if a club needs turning around in a particular moment. With England, there's a sense, well, perhaps a different direction tactically is needed after Gareth Southgate. maybe some overlooking his success is taking England to back-to-back finals when the men's team hadn't reached a final since 1966 so in terms of Tuchel's approach to the job it's actually perhaps getting a team in order but international football is very different because you have so little time with the players something that Tuchel reflected on in his interview with me after the squad announcement for the World Cup so you've got to be able to have an impact and particularly international football you've got to approach things differently you're not with the players the whole time you're being loaned them by their club so you can't necessarily have massive time to influence things tactically but that is demanded of an international coach to be able to ensure the players can work to your plan can adapt and change if necessary in a tournament so that's all reason that they're brought in at such great expense by countries like england and why you bring a manager like tuchel in on these multi-million pound contracts to be able to work out how to maximize your time with those players even though it's lay limited and also managing team dynamics as well and maintaining harmony yeah in the dressing room but there's always that sense when he arrived in the job how long will he stay in it given the fact that he does perhaps move through jobs fairly quickly but he has found this new extension fairly recently taken in beyond the world cup because it would have been quite problematic i think to enter the world cup with the contract sparring at the end of it.

8:12Rob Harris:The question is actually, should you judge managers at international level on a tournament-by-tournament basis and then extend? But in the managerial market as well, Tuchel's got that experience. So if you didn't have him signed up to a contract, he could be prized away by a club.

8:26Thomas Tuchel:Let's talk a bit more about that appointment back in 2025. You know, England looking for a manager, the FA come calling. Now, Rob, as you well know from our previous conversations, I'm not the world's biggest expert on English football, but I do know one thing. You don't like the Germans. So appointing a German as England manager, that must have been pretty controversial.

8:46Rob Harris:Well, there are some who believe there shouldn't be a foreign manager of the England team at all. But it's taken a foreign manager of the women's team, Serena Viegman, to deliver success, back to back Euro's titles. But it takes us back to when Sven Joran Eriksson was appointed as the first foreign manager of the England team at the start of the new millennium. And the reaction then is something I didn't think we'd necessarily repeat it again. Some of the more vocal elements of the punditry class, some of the papers very much railing against England being led by a foreigner. And yet we did see it when Tuchel was appointed, the Daily Mail back page, a big headline about his unsuitability for the job.

9:27Rob Harris:And you can approach it on a few levels. One, that you believe international football should see the coaching staff also be of the same nationality of the team, just as the players have to be. or you could actually look at a slightly more philosophical approach which is what message does it send out in terms of the coaches that you're bringing through domestically that you have to look abroad to bring a manager in rather than necessarily having that pipeline. And we thought there might have been a shift in things when Gareth Southgate was appointed. Then he was under 21's manager. Then, reluctantly at first, but steps into the senior job.

10:00Thomas Tuchel:Well, how have England performed in the Chukul era, especially compared to that which came before? I mean, Gareth Southgate did wonders for England, arguably, but it certainly felt a little bit more touchy-feely around Wembley back when he was in charge.

10:14Rob Harris:Yeah, very much a different approach of managers, and we see this reflected things like in the Dear England play, adapted from an article that went out in his name ahead of the Euros fine in 2021, very much about how connecting with the nation at a time, particularly in all the post-Brexit divisions with Southgate in charge, helping sort of bring the country together through political turmoil, and he very much adopted that role as sort of unifier of the nation with Tuchel very much, he's a football figure, he's not here, particularly as an outsider to try and talk about really as much as what football means to the country.

10:48Thomas Tuchel:What's his man management like? I mean, Southgate, we've already said, was a bit touchy-feely and arms around the shoulder type of guy.

10:54Rob Harris:What we see with Tuchel is actually how you manage some of those player relationships and he's willing to call things as they are. There's been some problematic moments and potentially still fraught with one of the great hopes for the team, Jude Bellingham, of Real Madrid. The fact that he managed to say last year that his mum was repulsed by him and this created a whole storm. It took him many months to attempt to defuse this situation and you don't really want to be falling out with one of the great talents of the team. And the question is whether some of these things are power plays dropping someone like Jude Bellingham to show who is boss, even if you are perhaps the biggest star of the team.

11:34Rob Harris:But, you know, you do want Mavericks at the same time. And some might question sort of Gareth Southgate's touchy-feely approach, maybe being too timid. So then we asked for more of a disciplinarian. And that's certainly what we had with Fabio Capello when he replaced Steve McLaren in sealing this new tough regime. But that then led to players being unhappy at the 2010 World Cup, feeling it was a bit of a miserable environment in South Africa. And that's very much what an international manager has to do. How do you cope with leading your players when you're on a two-week camp together, which is longer than you're together with your club side a lot of time?

12:06Rob Harris:How do you cope when you're away at a tournament? It can be for a month, even up to two months away with training camps beforehand and the tournament itself. And it's maintaining that harmony that's so necessary. And it's where you do need a strong coaching staff as well. And sometimes you do need an arm around the shoulder, not always bellowing things out. And you need to have the players on board to deliver that success. Because it's success that ultimately is about the whole country coming together very often around these moments. It's happened very often. It's England at major football tournaments.

12:36Rob Harris:That brings really the nation together, or indeed Scotland as well this summer.

12:40Thomas Tuchel:Let's discuss what's been going on, where you are today. Look, any time we get an England manager announcing their selection for a major competition, you get an insight into the mindset of that particular manager. What did we learn about Thomas Trickell today?

12:53Rob Harris:Yeah, well, making these squad decisions is tough. You can get quite a strong reaction from players. I've seen a bit of a backlash from the calls at this World Cup squad selection. Harry Maguire, Manchester United defender, going on social media after being told he wasn't going to complain about being shot and gutted. And maybe you got a sense from the reaction to being dropped. A reason why Tuchel didn't call up Maguire in the first place. If that's your reaction to not being called up by your country, maybe you might not fit into the team dynamic for the tournament. And a word used by Tuchel was about wanting players who are unselfish.

13:29Rob Harris:And that means it's about how you can cope. Players can go to a World Cup and not play a single minute. You have to cope with being on the bench. And you could be away for a month, two months without playing. And what we've seen in Tuchel is some bold calls leaving out some experienced players. Phil Foden, Manchester City, meant to be a bright hope going forward for years to come. Cole Palmer, starring with Chelsea at the Club World Cup last summer. another young talent coming through when someone like Tuchel looks at how they're performing for their club size well their name on reputation alone is not enough to take them to a world cup if he does not believe they can particularly cope with the heat of the United States where they're playing their group stage games and being away for that length of time when last summer they might barely have had a break but then there are players who've got their opportunities to come back into the fold from the biggest shocks Ivan Toney who had only played seven minutes of football for England since the Euros in 2024 last summer for Tuchel but he went out to Saudi Arabia that looked to be the end of his England career but maybe it's an experience in the heat that's got to replace at this World Cup back up to Harry Kane needing more striking options given that ability to cope with the fatigue Marcus Rashford in reverse left Manchester United on loan because he wasn't getting opportunities, goes to one of the toughest clubs in the world to be successful at, Barcelona, has won La Liga title and he is going to the World Cup.

14:52Thomas Tuchel:I mean, I'm going to call it, Rob, I think leaving out Harry Maguire is just daft. But there has always been the argument about Thomas Tuchel that his greatest strength is knockout football, competition football, part of the reason perhaps that England picked him. And I wonder whether this group of 26 looks like a tournament squad rather than the 26 best footballers for the positions that they would play.

15:16Rob Harris:And that's what he did indicate that it's not necessarily about who individually you might select as your best players if you were sort of weighing up all the individual stats for your fantasy team. It's about how they actually are on a real life pitch and how they are blending together as a group of players. But yeah, Harry Maguire's vast experience from tournaments has been so integral to this resurgence of the three lines under Gareth Southgate, largely that consistent figure in the heart of defence and whether you need that experience as well. And it's about those judgment calls and the pressurized moments, particularly in central defence, when one misstep can actually prove so costly.

16:02Thomas Tuchel:I'm Sam Coates from Sky News. And I'm Anne McElvoy from Politico. Downing Street drama, leadership battles and policy U-turns. We're on it before it breaks. We take you straight into the rooms where the real political conversations are happening. Smart Insight, clear analysis in your feeds by 7.45am. So you start your morning fully brief for the day ahead in British politics. Hit follow and listen to Politics at Sam & Anne's wherever you get your podcasts.

16:37Thomas Tuchel:Rob, it has been 60 years since that thing that you lot can't stop banging on about actually happened. And I'm just wondering, well, obviously you know that you're not going to win the World Cup because Scotland are going to win the World Cup. But how far do you think you can go?

16:52Rob Harris:It's going to be a challenging tournament for England. And I think there might be some revisionism about the Gareth Southgate era suddenly reaching those back-to-back Euros finals. Won't seem, as pads actually some England fans think, because they should have won the trophy. It will be a success reaching the quarterfinals. Getting beyond that, there are so many variables, particularly the length of the tournament, coping with the workload. Some players and teams might be more used to the heat, but it's particularly the English season, which is very gruelling. Not only the size of the Premier League, but having two domestic cup competitions as well, which not many countries have.

17:30Rob Harris:And Arsenal reaching the Champions League final as well. So think about those Arsenal players like Saka, Rice and Eze who will not get much of a break at all. They'll miss the start of England's preparation camp in Florida. So it's how they can be managed over time. How you manage those players in the tournament. Things are progressing well in the group stage to leave players out. What do you do with Harry Kane? You know, he's into his 30s now. He's had a bit of a break because Bayern Munich didn't reach the Champions League finals. So, yeah, it's about managing those players adeptly. But I don't think we'd put England among necessarily the ultimate favourites for this tournament.