Why does Donald Trump want to sue the BBC for ‘$1bn’?

0:00Coming up, it's Director General and CEO of News Resign as the BBC apologises for an unfairly edited report on Donald Trump. Just how many more mistakes can the BBC make?

0:38Stuff Matters, on your podcast app to listen and follow.

0:44When Tim Davie took over as BBC Director General, he promised to put Antti's house in order. There's three things that we've worked on with the public a little bit on terms of what do they really want to see preserved. And it's not just about the BBC. I think it's public service broadcasters. It can be commercial players like Sky. But for the BBC specifically, I think it's this idea of finding out the truth, pursuing truth with no agenda. So political impartiality is critical. So, how did that work out for you, Tim? Because I've got a little list. Since he became DG, we have seen allegations of bullying and inappropriate behaviour at Strictly Come Dancing, a Gaza documentary narrated by the son of a Hamas official, Gary Lineker time and again engaging in political commentary whilst working for the BBC.

1:34And how's about the BBC Glastonbury broadcast of punk band Bob Villain, its lead singer chanting, death, death to the IDF? What of the apology to Nigel Farage for falsely suggesting his bank account had been closed because he wasn't rich enough? What of the bullying allegations at BBC Breakfast leading to the programme editor taking an extended leave of absence? Tim Westwood, Greg Wallace, Hugh Edwards. Now Tim Davey and CEO of News Deborah Tennis have resigned over a badly edited Panorama report on Donald Trump. Well, like I say resigned, both are actually at work today and for the foreseeable whilst the replacements are sorted.

2:13After days of silence, there's finally been a statement from the BBC in the shape of a letter from Chairman Samir Shah. He has said, sorry for an error of judgement. It is all of a bit of a mess, really, and frankly, a mess it feels like the BBC has found itself in before. Ahead of the release of that statement, I spoke with Roger Bolton, formerly the editor of Panorama. He presented Right of Reply show feedback on Radio 4 for 23 years. He is now host of the Beb Watch podcast. Well, for reasons of transparency, I began by asking him about his relationship with the BBC. I was on the BBC staff for about 19 years and was very lucky to edit Panorama and things like that.

2:52And then they fired me, or technically made me redundant. And then I had the good fortune to be able to go to This Week and then in ITV and then also independent production. And then, you know, a little lifeboat came along in terms of presenting. So I did that. And I presented feedback for about 20 years until they terminated that, which they had every right to do. I wish they hadn't, but they have. By the way, to declare everything, I am in receipt of a small BBC pension. But they don't brief me. They don't promote me. I'd like to say I'm an advocate of public service broadcasting. That's where I start.

3:21Well, let's get to the biggest question in all of this then. Did Tim Davy and Deborah Turness have to go? Well, they didn't have to go at the beginning of last week. And if the board had made a proper statement, admitted that the editing specifically of the Trump was wrong, they wouldn't have had to go. The main reason they've had to go is because the BBC board hasn't defended them or hasn't actually responded in any way until now, until today, to these serious charges against the BBC. I mean, it's an own goal of an extraordinary nature. What I understand the situation to be is the board was so divided.

3:53Deborah Turness, who's the outgoing director of news, on who's resigned, wanted at least by Thursday to issue a statement wishing things had gone wrong, but also trying to defend the BBC, and the board would not let her. So this arm pass at board level meant that the BBC could not respond. You know, people will think, well, just shows, you know, they're guilty of everything. And of course, their opponents, and a lot of commercial opponents, and a lot of political opponents, and there are lobbyists, and those who believe the BBC is too left-wing, and there are a number who do that, see this as an opportunity of trying to move the BBC you see, towards their direction.

4:25For those who haven't worked in the news business, Roger, what exactly was the problem, the issue with that report from the United States, that panorama report around the Capitol Hill riots? Well, if we're taking the specific question of the Donald Trump edit, what all programmes do is edit speeches, particularly if there's as long as Trump's. The question is, it's one thing to take a clip. It's another thing to put two clips together as if it's a continuation of his speech, immediate continuation when they actually selected from, I think, parts of the speech about 45 minutes apart. Now, it may be one of those mistakes which were unfortunate but accidental, but there should have been somebody in the cutting room who was looking out specifically for those things.

5:08Then anyway, if it goes out and all organizations make mistakes, then you should acknowledge the mistake and correct it, and that's it. The BBC wouldn't acknowledge the mistake, didn't correct it, And in the end, faced with, I think, much unfair criticism, has not failed to respond at all, at least until today. But there's a structural problem that got them into the situation. The BBC used to have two boards. The executive board carried out the management, DG, everybody else. And the board of governors, or the trust, changed its name once or twice, which is supposed to represent the public interest, public service broadcasting.

5:41And ultimately, the chairman of that appoints the DG and takes action. It was decided under the Conservative government about four years ago, perhaps because it was thought to be more efficient, that you'd have one board. Problem is that sitting around the same table making editorial decisions is the DG and the chairman and a member, a non-executive member of the board. So if they can't agree, nothing happens. Whereas in the past, the executive could say, we think this. The governance could say, we disagree. And then you have a debate and then the chair takes a decision. but at least the public is let in on that debate.

6:16We don't have it now. There were other allegations made in this memorandum that was leaked to the press around biased coverage of the Gaza-Israel conflict, around biased coverage of trans rights. I mean, have those allegations been substantiated to the same extent as clearly the poor editing of that report in Panorama had? It's absolutely essential that the BBC, A, acknowledges mistakes, but then presents United Front. Well, it hasn't acknowledged its mistakes, And it's presented a disunited front. Now, whether that's by accident or design, there are some conspiracy theorists who think actually there are members of the BBC board who wish to change its direction.

6:53Look, I have made mistakes in reporting the news. You have admitted to making mistakes yourself. We all do it. And in the grander scheme of things, I'm not so sure that this is the biggest mistake that the BBC has made. However, people are taking it along with every other scandal that has happened in the past five years of Tim Davies' stint as Director General. And it does look like the BBC has a bit of a problem. There are two or three problems here. There's a massive amount of BBC output. Being Director General of the BBC is like being Home Secretary. Some prisoner absconds somewhere and you're held personally responsible for the security of that jail.

7:28My view would be there's always going to be scandals. The question is, is there a common thread? Do you deal with them? Are you open and transparent with the public about what you're trying to do. And crucially, I think this goes to the heart of the debate, do make sure that the whole range of public opinion is available. Now, there are some people, and they are in the BBC, or they're everywhere, who believe they know the truth and they want to make sure that their view of what the truth is predominates. Well, the BBC has got to be tough enough to say, well, I appreciate you feel very strongly about that, but there's another view, and we're going to give the other view an airing, and where there are facts and where we can establish the facts, and if we can establish one side is speaking more truthfully, we'll say so.

8:03But we can't become a prisoner of particular view. It's very difficult to make the case at the top that BBC is biased. You might make the case early on that some of the younger people there feel particularly strongly on an issue and don't quite grasp how impartial the BBC needs to be. But that's the job of editors to make sure that happens. I do take your point to an extent, but just look at the scandals that have hit the BBC over the past five years. Hugh Edwards, the BBC dragged its feet over that one. Greg Wallace and the broader allegations around Masterchef, Masterchef, the BBC dragged its feet on that.

8:33The Coots Bank story, Nigel Farage being debacked. Again, the BBC dragged its heels. You've got Martin Bashir lying to get an interview with Princess Diana. I mean, you've got bullying at BBC Breakfast. Another example, the Gary Lineker saga. Again, the point I'm making is not that the BBC should be entirely immune from scandal. As you say, it covers so much ground that mistakes are going to be made from time to time. the problem is that the BBC just seems so slow to act or even reticent to hold its hands up when it makes mistakes like this first thing is you know Gary Lineker was the highest paid employee of the BBC but he wasn't actually on the BBC staff right he worked for other people so he would argue he was a freelance which I think he was secondly you've got the question of just the BBC have the right to say everybody works to them sorry you've got to cancel all your views now that's ridiculous but I think you have to say with Gary Lineker he was wrong because people assumed that he was speaking, you know, for the BBC, and he should have actually stopped.

9:32But it's always this balance between free speech. I think the other thing that's happened, of course, social media has changed nearly everything. It's a much more difficult environment. And I think whereas for news and current affairs people and people on BBC staff, you can actually tell them you should not do anything. Were they freelance, it's more difficult. I think Gary and Neil went too far. I think it's right that he left. But I accept that it was a very difficult issue to resolve. What do you make of the argument being advanced by some, including Nick Robinson, and host of the Today programme, that there are people working to undermine the BBC from within.

10:02We've talked a little bit about the boards and the BBC's governance structure, but some of the political appointees to that board, Robbie Gibb, a name that keeps on coming up, are, it would appear, dissatisfied at the very least with the way in which the BBC is conducting itself. Well, it's difficult, isn't it? I always lean to the cock-up theory of history or the conspiracy one, But it is a fact that, you know, Robert Gibb worked as the chief spokesman for a conservative prime minister. He's been very clear about his views, for example, on Brexit elsewhere. He's a diehard Brexiteer, he says. I think he's a very dry conservative.

10:36He's described himself as that. I think he has been very critical in the past about the BBC's impartiality. He doesn't think it is sufficiently so. So the question for Robert Gibb is, is he able to set aside those views when he works with the BBC? There are those who are suspicious of him because of his record. What I think there is clearly the case, there are people, there are organisations whose profitability depend upon the BBC failing. There are politicians, and it's happened in the past, the Labour Party want to the BBC to tilt in their direction. Labour tends to want to do that because it says, look, the majority of the press and the media is pro-Tory, I think the BBC should even it up.

11:08Well, the BBC can't even it up. It shouldn't move left to balance their name. It has to stay in the middle. And then there are those people, I think, who genuinely believe that the BBC is institutionally, as they used the expression, biased. Now, within all of that, there are legitimate criticisms of the BBC. And the difficulty is, you know, the BBC tends to get very defensive. Everybody's against us. And I think that's partly the fault of politicians and others. I think, however, now it's got a governance structure, which has clearly failed. And a chair, it might be, was clearly failed. And at precisely the moment, the BBC needed to be defended, and then you sort out the problem.

11:42If necessary, you might fire the DJ if you have to, but you take control of the situation. The BBC hasn't. Why hasn't the chairman stepped aside? Why have we seen the CEO of News and the DG falling on their swords, but not the chairman? My view would be this. In terms of Tim Davy, he's had five years of this. He genuinely, I think, believes he's probably too damaged to take the BBC through charter renewal and everything else. I think he's wrong. but I can understand him feeling like that. But also, I think the personal stresses must be great. You're working 24 hours a day. You get a hit by everybody.

12:16And you might think, look, I've done five years. That's enough. The other thing is, of course, that he does, I think, and I don't think he would admit this, he does and will feel let down by parts of the news operation. Then you look at the director of news. I think in the end, somebody has to carry the can for both the mistake in terms particularly of the editing, but also in the refusal to acknowledge that mistake or do something about it. The trouble is that, you know, President Trump is rejoicing. Well, hold on. Trump did try to stop a democratically elected American president taking office.

12:53He did. Now this will hear from Vladimir Putin, who will use all this to say, just shows you the BBC's biased. You know, we're getting a tough call of our activities in Ukraine. That's what's so bad about this. What of the future? As you say, the BBC is about to head into negotiations with the government over charter renewal. I mean, how much of the BBC's long-term future rests on the decision of the next Director General? A great deal. I mean, the BBC is still the most trusted news organisation in this country, but clearly its support is diminishing and also the support for its funding is diminishing.

13:27But, you know, we've got to be careful that we don't end up without independent news coverage. I admire all the Sky News coverage, but I think it's greatly helped by the fact that it's got BBC as a competitor. I think all public service broadcasters need competitors. You know, we don't want at this time when we have such, well, we have liars in the White House and liars in Moscow. And, you know, they have alternative truths and whatever. You have people in silos. You have a more polarized society than any before. or if we have a deeply unhappy country, we desperately need an impartial news broadcaster.

13:59So I hope people in Parliament who ultimately will make the decision, and I hope people at home, licensed fee payers and others, will realize the BBC is worth preserving. Maybe it needs to be restructured and so on, and the charter renewal is the ideal time to do it. Now, whether that will happen, I think it will, but I think the events of the last week have been extremely damaging and has made that renewal more difficult. I'm all for plurality in the media landscape, but I do wonder whether we are heading for a time of consolidation within the BBC, whether one likely outcome of all of this is, as you said, right from the beginning of our conversation, the BBC does so much that it is bound to find itself in this situation over and over again.

14:44And maybe, just maybe, it might be time for the BBC to consider divesting itself of some of its responsibilities. Well, that's a decision essentially for us and for Parliament. I mean, here's an ideal opportunity with Charter Renewal to say, what should the BBC do? Now, I would say we have a real problem with science in our schools and engineering, and we need to tool up our children for the future. I would say the same about the arts. I feel strongly about religion and the reporting of that. It's still central to many people's lives. I think, you know, that you will not find on the whole on the internet.

15:18So I think we need to redefine public service broadcasting. But the other thing is this, we have as a country to decide, do we want to make sure that things that the market does not provide, because it probably isn't profitable enough for the market, are necessary for us as a country, for our future, and in particular for our children. The first conversation should be about, do we need public service broadcasting, what we want? The second in the conversation should be, is the BBC the best way of delivering it? The third should be the way we pay for it. Not 3-2-1, but 1-2-3. Roger, it's been a pleasure chatting to you.

15:53Thanks so much for your time. And we heard during the recording of today's podcast that the famously litigious leader of the free world, Donald Trump, has sent a letter to the BBC threatening legal action. We'll see how that one plays out. The Daily's back tomorrow. Till then, take care.

16:11How does a banana trigger a CIA-backed coup? Do AirPods herald the arrival of a new global order? What do LED lights say about the future of humanity? I'm Ed Conway, and in each episode of my new podcast, Stuff Matters, I take an object, crack it open, and reveal the world-shaping forces hidden inside. This is economics told through the things we think we understand. Search Stuff Matters on your podcast app to listen and follow.