Why Harry’s legal loss leaves him at a crossroads

0:02Sky News, the full story first.

0:11The Duke of Sussex describes his battle with the press as his life's work. Now he's lost the last of his legal battles with them. People are asking, what is the point of Harry? This is why.

0:26How does a banana trigger a CIA-backed coup? Do AirPods herald the arrival of a new global order? What do LED lights say about the future of humanity? I'm Ed Conway, and in each episode of my new podcast, Stuff Matters, I take an object, crack it open, and reveal the world-shaping forces hidden inside. This is economics told through the things we think we understand. Search Stuff Matters on your podcast app to listen and follow.

1:05Prince Harry has certainly been no stranger to courtrooms the past few years. There were, of course, his attempts to get the government to provide security for him and his family. Those attempts failed. Then there were his efforts to bring the press to heel for unlawful information gathering. Hacking, basically. and admittedly there he did have some success. That is, until this week, when his case against the publisher of The Mail and Mail on Sunday was torn apart by the judge, prompting this from The Mail's editor-in-chief. Poor Harry. I feel sorry for the way a confused and angry young man has been drawn into this case.

1:41The bitter irony is that his mother, Diana, likes The Mail. We were her paper. At the time of recording, there is still some speculation that Meghan may make an appearance here. Harry was in the UK to promote his Invictus Games charity, but the trip instead became overshadowed by stories about him staying, then not staying at Buckingham Palace, about meeting and then not meeting with his dad. After this defeat in the courts, we are increasingly left with an image of a prince without a purpose. I think he's a very damaged individual and a very passionate individual. He's had his comeuppance on this, But essentially, you know, he's Diana's boy and I wish him well.

2:24Jenny Bond is a royal commentator. Jenny, not quite an anus horribilis, but certainly a pretty bad week for Harry. Just remind us, what was this court case all about in the first place? His court case was about the fact that he felt that journalists at the Mail and the Mail on Sunday had got information about him, very personal information, illicitly. He believed that they'd been hacking his phones. He believed that they'd been employing private detectives to use illegal means to gather information in all sorts of ways. And as we all know now, the judge said that it simply had not been proved.

3:00He accepted that the articles were very personal and probably quite distressing to the prince. But the journalists, one after another, came into court and said, this is how we got the stories. Basically, Harry's circle is a bit leaky and through good contacts and conversations and partying they had obtained information which he felt should not be in the public domain. It was a pretty damning verdict. The response from Harry was pretty furious. Oh gosh, I mean he's incandescent, he's humiliated, he's humbled. Look at the newspaper headlines, you know, Harry caned was a particularly good one I thought.

3:38I like that too. Harry humbled, Harry humiliated, and he has been because he has stated that this was almost his mission in life. He may even have used those words to reform my profession, your profession, the media. I was looking at his book and he feels that journalists, almost all of us are, a dreadful mob of dweebs, crones and cut-rate criminals and clinically diagnosable sadists. So, you know, his opinion is exceptionally low of journalists. And to be humbled, and he has been in this way, is going to hurt his pride. And my goodness me, I think it's going to hurt his wallet. Yeah, but this is a prince.

4:18A prince having a pop at the member of the judiciary, calling a legal judgment a whitewash. I mean, is this a representative of clearly the anger that he feels? Or is it just another example of a petulant prince having a pop at someone when a decision doesn't go in his way? Well, yeah, he's angry, and I understand that. I get it. He put his reputation pretty much on the line with this, along with the other plaintiffs, Elton John, Liz Hurley, Baroness Lawrence. And together, I think they really felt they had a good case against Associated Newspapers. And to be told so comprehensively that not one of those articles was proved to be attained illegally, it was damning for all of them.

4:59And yeah, Harry is a man who wears his heart on his sleeve, and he was extremely angry. And yeah, those were pretty strong words to aim at a judge. Particularly a judge who in essence, and I've gone through the judgment myself, was pointing out that there was no legal basis for the claims that they were making. If you are going to say that this article was produced by means of illegal hacking, whatever, you've got to show that it actually took place. So I do wonder whether or not he believed that the case was particularly strong, whether he might well have been pushed into this legal action by people who should know better.

5:35Well, I think actually he believed he had a good case for lots of reasons. And you have to say that he did win some damages from the mirror. Some of his cases, his allegations were proved. He did settle out of court with the son. And so I think he, you know, he thought on this one, he was on a sure thing. I mean, this was much longer. This was 10 or 12 weeks of a trial or hearing. but I think he was confident he was going to win. Had he been pushed into it? I don't know. I don't think so. And I don't think he would have taken much of a shove to try to get what he sees as justice. Yeah, that is a very fair point.

6:13I do also wonder though, is it correct for us now to say that Harry's war with the tabloids or Harry's broader war with journalism in general is now over? Well, he did indicate that this was his last great battle. I mean, he's taken on all the tabloids now. I suspect, I don't think his purse would stretch to another legal battle. I don't know what he's going to do in terms of that. I mean, he's still very unhappy with cooperating with journalists. He's been a little bit better in recent times. And he needs the publicity because he wants to do good causes. He does do good causes. And in the Invictus Games, no one is going to take that away from him.

6:53And it's great that he's publicising it. We have this countdown to Invictus in one year's time. What does he need for that? He needs publicity. Who gives publicity? The press. So he's got to find a way to cooperate somehow with the media. Still, we both know, I mean, he has described this battle with the media, with the press as his life's work. I mean, if the courts won't deliver the judgment that he desired, I mean, what happens to that sense of mission, to that sense of purpose? Yeah, well, he said it was his life's work, if you like. His father warned him that it was a suicide mission. That's in his book as well.

7:27The other members of the royal family, occasionally, they've sued newspapers, they have, and they've taken them to task verbally sometimes. But in general, I don't think Charles was supportive of this move by Harry. So it's another factor, I think, in the distance between father and son. You mentioned the relationship with Charles. The story doing the rounds this week about where Harry was going to stay whilst he was in town, there was talk of him staying at Buckingham Palace, then there was talk that he was not going to be staying at Buckingham Palace. What do you know, Jenny? Because I'm really confused.

7:59You're confused. I think everybody was, including the palace and probably Harry too. It was like watching Wimbledon, actually, wasn't it? It was going this way and that way. Yes, he will. No, he won't. Where's he going to stay? I mean, there are two sides to every story. There are definitely two sides to this. Harry couldn't make up his mind, it would seem, about whether to take up an offer to stay in a royal residence, possibly, probably Buckingham palace. The palace suggested or said there was a deadline to get everything organised. I don't know how much organisation you need, really, for one bed, for one man, maybe for one night, possibly two.

8:33But anyway, Harry had to give an answer by Friday. He didn't. On Saturday, he said, actually, he would like to stay there. Then he changed his mind, apparently, he said he wouldn't want to stay there. I mean, frankly, I think they should all grow up about this, you know. I think Harry should have apologise to Charles and everyone for mucking them all around, which he did. Charles should have said, well, of course I've got a bed for you, son, giving him a hug and all grow up. That's my vision of the world. But sadly, that doesn't seem to be the importance. And I share your vision, but I do think it is quite striking that we have a situation in which, you know, a family has gotten to a point where even their sleeping arrangements turn into a constitutional incident.

9:10Let's not forget, we were at one point talking about Harry coming to the UK with Meghan and the kids to meet with Charles. And we're ending this week, you know, debating about whether or not they could find a Z bed for him to crash in up at Buckhouse. I think the week isn't yet over. It is possible, just possible, that Meghan and the children will fly in to at least support Harry in his hour of need after losing the court case and also with the Invictus Games. There are reports that the family have spent the past week or two, we don't know. There's a lot we don't know. but in Europe, possibly Portugal.

9:45They may or may not have bought a house in Portugal several years ago. We don't know. However, all the word is that that's where they've been hanging out. Now, they've been hanging out there in total privacy, it would seem. We don't know whether they... No one's tailed them. Actually, one or two newspaper editors have told me that they really don't care, quite frankly. They can't be bothered to send reporters down because they don't care. So my point is that they can do things with very little kerfuffle, it would seem, and very little invasion of their privacy. So why couldn't they have come over quietly at a time when Harry wasn't trying to drum up publicity for events and doing anything official at a completely different time and just quietly seen Charles?

10:27And there'll be a reunion with his son and the grandkids could have seen their grandfather and then they could have gone back to California and then we could have been told about it or not, as the case may be. Why is everything such a drama with Harry? Well, he certainly doesn't shy away from a fight or two. And I suppose our conversation just now about Meghan and the kids leads us pretty nicely onto that other great battle, which Harry fought and lost when it came to security. I mean, his argument has always been, I cannot bring my wife and kids here if the security provided is not adequate, is not increased.

10:58And he went to the courts on that one. He fought it. He fought it hard. And again, ultimately, he lost. He did. And I think he's right to feel aggrieved about that. I cannot understand why this country couldn't afford protection, armed protection, metropolitan police protection, to a man who, whatever else he is, is the king's son. He is a prince. He is royal. I don't think al-Qaeda care at all. Al-Qaeda, who have allegedly threatened to assassinate him, I don't think they care whether he's a working royal. They don't care. He's a target. Obviously, he's admitted in his book that he killed 25 Taliban fighters.

11:40That was ill-advised and obviously makes him even more of a target. But target, I think he is. So why couldn't we have given this family, just a few days, maybe four or five days we're talking about, proper security? I don't get it. Are you suggesting that perhaps, Jenny, both sides are as bad as each other? I mean, given that Charles could have reached into his incredibly deep pockets and provided that security, do you get the impression that Charles really does want reconciliation, rapprochement and meeting with his grandkids. Well, you see, I don't think Charles could reach into his pockets and provide that security because the Metropolitan Police is not for hire.

12:11And this is Harry's point. He offered to pay. He'd bring his own security. I see a lot of comeback on social media about this when I ever say anything. We should point out that Harry has his own security. He pays for that. They cannot bring guns into this country. The only people who can give him arm protection and the Metropolitan Police, and they're not for hire, even though Harry offered to pay. And Charles can't buy them either. So it has to be this committee, Ravek, who make the decision. And the decision was that he did not merit, warrant, armed protection on this occasion. But if the King had intervened or someone close to the King had intervened, wouldn't it be the case that the decision could quite easily have been gone the other way?

12:50You would think so. You would definitely think so. And the King's private secretary is on the Ravek committee, along with Home Office ministers, etc. You would think his word would carry weight. So, yes, I think in many ways the two sides have behaved almost as badly as one another. And I just think it's terribly sad because at the heart of so much of this is two small children aged seven and five. I've got two grandchildren aged exactly that age. And they pick things up. They understand family tensions and they also appreciate their grandparents. Well, I hope in my case they do anyway. I think in the end it's just sad.

13:28that some quiet reconciliation couldn't take place.

13:36How does a banana trigger a CIA-backed coup? Do AirPods herald the arrival of a new global order? What do LED lights say about the future of humanity? I'm Ed Conway, and in each episode of my new podcast, Stuff Matters, I take an object, crack it open, and reveal the world-shaping forces hidden inside. This is economics told through the things we think we understand. Search Stuff Matters on your podcast app to listen and follow.

14:19We've mentioned Invictus, of course, the charity that Harry works with in relation to injured members of the armed forces. I mean, is that the one part of Harry's public life that everyone can still agree is actually admirable? Well, yes, absolutely. I've not heard anyone criticise that. And of course, I think it will be Harry's dream for his dad to be there next year when he launches the Invictus Games, the actual Invictus Games in July. Sadly, that's also the month of Camilla's 80th birthday. So I hope it doesn't actually conflict with the date, because that would be a diary clash. But I think it would be wonderful if Charles could be there when they were originally launched in this country.

15:00Oh, how many years ago? I've forgotten how many years. But all the senior royals were there to cheer Harry on and to applaud what he was trying to do, which he has now achieved. Of course, but Invictus is very, very closely linked with him. And you said it already, no one will be getting him to take his hands off that particular charity. But in his life of public service, charitable acts are going to be a big part of it. And is Harry still the draw that he once was for those charities that perhaps might have wished to work with him in the past? The reason I'm asking is, of course, what happened with Centre Barley, the charity that he again set up and which he resigned from.

15:37Lots of accusations being directed at the chief executive. It was all a bit unseemly. It was. I think that really hit him hard. And Senta Bali was a life's passion for him and set up almost in memory of his mother, I think, looking after the children who were so deprived and with HIV out there. It meant the world to him. And I was astonished when he fell out with the organisers there. On the other hand, I really do defend him in the way that we do need someone to stand up about and talk about the dangers of social media and how young children get under the dark web and are driven to suicide. And he and Meghan have done that on the international stage.

16:18And I applaud him for that. So I think there are causes, certainly, that he still can use his platform for and will continue to do so. So what does Harry do now? He has taken on the press and lost. He's taken on the government in terms of his security. He's lost that. He's fallen out with his family. He's written the book. He's made the documentary. I mean, what next? What is the point of Harry? Well, I would have said that he should just go to California and enjoy his life in the sunshine with a wife he adores, with children he's always wanted, and just have a wonderful life there because I'm sure he had enough money to do that.

16:55Will he have enough money now? It depends what the judge says on July 29th when the costs are awarded after this mammoth court case. I mean, it's said to be£50 million, this court case cost. I don't know who's going to pay those bills. I think he will continue to use the platform he has to do good works, and he does do some. He's going to take a long time to settle down from this humbling. But it seems to me that if he's going to do the good works, then he has to build up some kind of rapport with at least some journalists, and not just the very, very favoured few at the moment to whom little nuggets of information are given.

17:32That's the other thing. I mean, he says in his book, I've been rereading his book, as you might have gathered, and he talks about how he's going to do things differently. He and Meghan aren't going to have these palace sources saying whatever. We're just going to say it straight out of our mouths like we did with Oprah Winfrey. Well, that's not happened at all. I mean, it really hasn't. Just these occasional little bits of information are fed to favoured journalists. So none of us really know what the hell is going on. Do you think, Jenny, there is any version of Harry's future that involves Britain in a meaningful way?

18:03I think he would like it to. We know that he wants his children to understand their heritage. And I think he would like to spend a bit more time here. And I hope he can. I'm not one of those who slate him the whole time. I think he's a very damaged individual and a very passionate individual. jewel. He's had his comeuppance on this, but essentially, you know, he's Diana's boy and I wish him well. It makes me sad that there is such vitriol online about Harry and Meghan. I don't think it's justified. He's a screwed up gentleman who needs to find happiness and put the past behind him. Jenny, always a pleasure.

18:45Thanks very much for being with us. Okay. And that's your lot for today, though I do remember that every time we do an episode on the royals, you lot certainly have plenty to say. So let me know your thoughts on Harry's past, his future, indeed the future of the whole royal family. Why at sky.uk is the email address. We're back tomorrow.

19:17What do LED lights say about the future of humanity? I'm Ed Conway, and in each episode of my new podcast, Stuff Matters, I take an object, crack it open, and reveal the world-shaping forces hidden inside. This is economics told through the things we think we understand. Search Stuff Matters on your podcast app to listen and follow.