Why Infantino is clinging on to power at FIFA

0:01Hello, Ed Conway here. Here's what might sound like a slightly random question. What do AirPods, bananas and a pair of shoddily made running trainers from the 1970s have in common. On the surface, not very much. But on my podcast, Stuff Matters, I will uncover the deeper stories behind each of them. You will see how, together, they tell a fascinating new story about the world we live in. The first full series of Stuff Matters is out now. Just search for it on your podcast app and follow. Sky News. The full story first.

0:41FIFA President Gianni Infantino is insisting he isn't going anywhere. And this is why.

0:53Hello, Ed Conway here. Here's what might sound like a slightly random question. What do AirPods, bananas and a pair of shoddily made running trainers from the 1970s have in common? On the surface, not very much. But on my podcast Stuff Matters, I will uncover the deeper stories behind each of them. You will see how together they tell a fascinating new story about the world we live in. The first full series of Stuff Matters is out now. Just search for it on your podcast app and follow.

1:31FIFA president Gianni Infantino is facing calls to resign over a botched plan to sell off parts of the World Cup. But last night, he issued a defiant letter threatening his critics and insisting he was staying put. After Andy Burnham called for him to go, the latest world leader to have lost confidence in the football mogul is Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney. I've run a few organisations in my time. The idea that proper governance is not to disclose to your closest advisers, your chief operating officer, your fellow board members, something of consequence that you're even considering, let alone proposing, you know, that's fatal.

2:11Questions surrounding FIFA's power and influence and whether the FIFA president can continue in his role aren't going away. But for now, Infantino is hanging on. You get this sense that Infantino believes, well, why should I be forced out by some of the European federations when I've got the world still backing me? I'm joined by Sky's sports correspondent, Rob Harris. It was, what, a week or so we've been talking about FIFA and we're back here again. Let's do a deep dive into FIFA for a moment. What is FIFA? They are the governing body of world football, founded in 1904 and now they have 211 member associations, more than the UN.

2:53And in fact, you could say some of the decisions that are taken by FIFA have more consequence all around the world in so many countries, big and small, compared to the UN. I think Donald Trump would agree with you on that. Okay, so how does FIFA make its money? From largely the Men's World Cup, from the TV money, the sponsorships and increasingly we saw in the North American World Cup we've just had from ticket prices, high ticket prices, which FIFA says is reinvested back into football all around the world, particularly to help those that don't have the power, status and might of those in Europe.

3:28I mean, we did see nations like Cape Verde, for instance, coming through in a way that we haven't seen before. And some people would argue, therefore, that actually that's proof that investing that money in some other nations is a good thing and has positive impacts, right? And we've seen it in countries like Iceland when they beat England at their first ever Euros in 2016. They'd managed to fund indoor playing facilities to ensure that more players were coming through the system. And it's about trying to sort of level the playing field across the world to get greater participation. And FIFA does see itself as having this global role.

4:06What it means in the power systems of FIFA is all 211 members have equal voting status at the FIFA Congress, where the big decisions should be made. By comparison, in the world of cricket with International Cricket Council, they do weight it. So some of the more illustrious cricket nations, their vote carries more weight. But what it means is ultimately it's the FIFA Congress that votes for the president of the governing body. So as long as you've got more than half the membership backing you, then you can secure power. And very often, that's by offering help for those small the nations. So FIFA is a non-profit but I mean these people aren't volunteering they've paid a huge amount of money I mean how much does Infantino earn?

4:45Last year he earned the equivalent of about 4.6 million pounds and part of that was made up with his bonus rising 33 % to around 2 million pounds having delivered the first expanded club world cup but it is actually overshadowed by some of the big US Sports Commissioner salaries with Roger Goodell at the NFL earning close to 50 million pounds in terms of the last annual figures that we do have. And that's why some have accused him of trying to launch this scheme to gain a more lucrative role. Are there advantages for FIFA being a non-profit when it comes to things like tax? Yes, it does get them favourable tax regimes in parts of the world, like Switzerland, where they are largely based, and in countries where they host the World Cup as well.

5:36They seek to have tax-exempt status, the ability to bring in goods without necessarily having to pay import duties. And that's compulsory, right? If you want to host the World Cup, you need to give FIFA those tax breaks, right? They make those demands, even about things like how much cash you can bring into the country as well. Challenges have often be made. Well, if you are maintaining this non-for-profit status in Switzerland with these tax exemptions, then you need to abide by certain standards of governance. It also means FIFA says that it does reinvest all the money back into the football.

6:08So when it's accused of greed and just being able to generate as many billions as possible, they say it is to put back into these development projects. And Gianni Fantino will say he's cleaned things up since the days of Sepp Blatter. He was brought down in Scandler 2015, better checks and balances on the finances, is because countries around the world don't just get necessarily handouts of cash. They are meant to apply for particular projects. So if you can say, I want to use this money for a particular new facility or to develop part of the women's game. In fact, interestingly, I discovered some information this week that showed FIFA had been scripting letters of endorsement for Gianni Infantino's re-election that were being sent out to football associations around the world before the World Cup we've just had.

6:51And this was your exclusive, wasn't it, Rob? So they were basically putting words into their mouths. Is that a fair assumption? Absolutely. Very specific to particular countries as well about how they'd helped women's football in the country, helped their technical advancement, even signing the name of an FA president in a case of one I saw as well. It's the heart of this whole FIFA forward enterprise and this whole controversy because it's been positioned by Gianni Infantino's FIFA about trying to generate more money for the members to have access to in the years to come. Let's recap that for a second.

7:24Just remind us of what FIFA's plans were when it came to that World Cup sell-off and why it was controversial. Well, I've got it in my hands. FIFA Forward Enterprise member materials document prepared by FIFA and JP Morgan. And it was cooked up in private with Gianni Infantino, not informing his FIFA council members, some of those closer staff apparently to him at FIFA. And it was Infantino believing he could make more money out of the World Cup. There were questions over how the deal was being put together and also the value of the deal. Why this rush to do the deal? Why the accelerated timetable to get it over the line?

8:00Right. It looks like Infantino's staying for now, at least. Let's talk about those emergency talks that happened in Morocco. Why were they held? Well, there's a need for these talks because Gianni Fantino had gradually been losing the confidence of football bodies around the world, particularly from European football's governing body UEFA, as well as criticism from the Asian and North American confederations too. But then we started to hear from inside FIFA, no supportive voices, only critical ones. We had his senior advisor, Carlos Cordera, announcing his resignation through Sky News. And we had critical statements too from Arsene Wenger, having said he wasn't informed, even though his role is chief of global football development.

8:46And yet this is all meant to be about raising more money for development. And then I obtained also an email sent internally to the FIFA staff by the Secretary General, Mateus Grafstrom, effectively the person who runs the administration, the right-hand man to Infantino. And he was talking about being a sad and reproachable series of events that had led to this project and certainly critical of the way it was all conceived. So Infantino summoned his senior staff to the Moroccan capital Rabat, to a vast FIFA building there, which shows how they've sort of extended their footprint around the world beyond the Zurich HQ under Infantino.

9:22And after several hours of talks, we got a conclusion. It was actually a joint letter that was sent to members of the FIFA Council and the FIFA Vice President. Right, let's talk about the letter in just a moment. But first of all, who is still backing or was at least still backing FIFA and Infantino and who wasn't? Because there were reports that Morocco was offered the hosting of the World Cup final in the next World Cup that they're jointly hosting with Spain and Portugal as a kind of I don't know, thank you for support for Infantino, for instance. So where are we now in terms of the kind of for and against groups?

10:01Well, FIFA denied that, although... Yes, they did. Was it discussed at any point? They wouldn't necessarily have a signed agreement at this stage. So yeah, you've got the World Cup final and they're certainly trying to get it there. In fact, there's only ever been one World Cup previously in Africa and South Africa in 2010. Now, Morocco are supportive. They're actually praising Infantino for withdrawing the project when it proved too divisive. They're saying actually it's a sign of leadership. He withdrew it. You've also had similar sentiment from Lebanon, where Infantino gained citizenship in the last year or so.

10:32Also from Qatar, where he's had a base and they had the World Cup in 2022. And from Egypt as well. The problem for UEFA has been not as many countries have put out their own individual statements opposing Infantino as perhaps they had expected at one point. And there has been support from Indonesia as well. So while we've had governing body positions from the likes of the Asian Football Confederation condemning the actions of FIFA, it has been a fracturing amongst those confederations, which has allowed Infantino to sort of split them off. But then, for instance, the UK, Andy Burnham, the PM, came out and said that Infantino was the wrong guy for the job.

11:11And I think a concern has been within Europe that it can often seem like a British plot almost against FIFA. The fact England and Wales spoke out. something very interesting actually in the presentation prepared by JP Morgan and FIFA and it shows perhaps some of the jealousy from FIFA towards particularly the Premier League because in it it highlights the strength financially of the Premier League compared to the World Cup. You have a sense that FIFA is trying to tell the world that European football is just too dominant and in the document I obtained from FIFA and JP Morgan it says FIFA has been under-monetized versus other leagues.

11:48And it says how revenue per fan is$1 for FIFA competitions, how it has an annual revenue fee for$3.6 billion compared to the Premier League, which is$9.1 billion. And it talks about the Champions League as well. Well, the Premier League is an annual competition. The Men's World Cup is every four years, as is the Women's World Cup. The question is, is FIFA meant to necessarily be generating as much as these annual competitions that run for so much of the year. As they say in this presentation I obtained, as other sports leagues capture more revenue, investment for global football development gets squeezed, saying effectively, we're the ones to help the world.

12:25They're just making money for themselves. Interesting. Right, let's talk about this letter. So this letter came out from FIFA. What can we read between the lines from this letter? Yes, it was sent out around 10pm on Wednesday night after all-day talks. And it was signed by Gianni Fantino and his Secretary General, Matthias Grafstrom, jointly in a show of unity. And it said that the Secretary General and the Management Board in attendance, this is at the meeting in Rabat, reaffirmed their full support for FIFA President Gianni Fantino as the only elected official by the 211 member associations.

13:03so we focus in on those in attendance. I know of several key officials who are not in attendance at this meeting. Arsene Wenger, former Arsenal manager, chief of global football development, Jill Ellis, former US manager who is the chief football officer. Also, Sarai Behrman, the chief women's football officer wasn't there. No, we don't know why. Also, the chief operating officer, Kevin Lamour, who spoke out so critically, almost daring Infantino to sack him the previous week, as well. So notable figures not there. So it wasn't the entire management board backing them. And if you look into this whole letter, there is defiance in terms of Infantino staying on.

13:46There was an apology over the process, but also an insistence they've done nothing wrong in terms of their integrity. But then there's also a threat to critics to say that FIFA will no longer tolerate a tax on its integrity, good governance and due process and will take all necessary measures to protect and safeguard its name and reputation, which is aimed at who is it? People internally? Is it the media? Is it fans? Is it the football associations who have been withdrawing letters and are speaking out? But it's telling them to now shut up and let us get on with it and we've done nothing wrong.

14:19I mean, it's a fascinating letter. The first couple of paragraphs are basically FIFA telling everybody how great they are, all the great work they've done. What do you make of the tone of that letter? Because I don't know if it's just me, but to me it comes across as maybe a bit tone deaf considering the amount of upset and outrage about FIFA's plans. It's very confrontational and it perhaps raises into doubt their strategic thinking that the moment a week last Tuesday that the plans leaked and UEFA spoke out so critically, They didn't sense there was a need to sort of attempt to pull back, even just delay things to show there was a stalling process in place.

14:59And yeah, you get this sense that Infantino believes, well, why should I be forced out by some of the European federations when I've got the world still backing me? Well, let's talk about that. Let's talk about the future of FIFA and Infantino. Infantino. First of all, Infantino, he's up for re-election. We don't know yet whether UEFA is going to potentially put up a kind of rival candidate. If that happens, that could potentially put a spanner in the works for him. But also the English FA, they withdraw their support. So can Infantino actually survive this? Or is this going to be a kind of death by a thousand cuts metaphorically?

15:36As we know, particularly from Westminster scandals, where he was spent so long that often it's if the story keeps going if there's new allegations of wrongdoing that do emerge in any way if people are trying to chip away at stuff and we often get told by fifa people trying to put stuff out there for a particular reason to undermine him that would be something but it shows how he's adopted this sort of teflon status fending off all criticism i mean there's still so many questions about actions over the past few years in terms of creating the fifa peace Prize who knew about it within the organisation before handing it to Donald Trump to make up from not giving the Nobel Prize?

16:15What about the red card suspension for Foller and Balogun being lifted after the intervention by Donald Trump to help the USA star Cristiano Ronaldo being able to play at the World Cup rather than serving a suspension issue to face with no explanation from fee from various other schemes over the years? I mean if this was Westminster it's always the same line, which is as soon as you become the story, that's the end. But it doesn't actually feel like the rules apply in the same way to Infantino. So I suppose the question is maybe he can hang on in there. A final question to you, Rob. When it comes to football, when it comes to the beautiful game, has football been tainted by this saga with FIFA?

16:58This is probably just renewed suspicions about how football is run globally. However grief, FIFA do feel with some of the scrutiny in coverage. These are self-inflicted own goals. It was barely two weeks ago we had the World Cup final. And yes, there are issues, Donald Trump on the pitch and the Argentine players fighting. But so many billions had watched this tournament, had loved it. FIFA could have been basking in the afterglow. And yet they were launching this private equity plan behind the scenes. Gianni Fantino is someone who inserts himself in the conversation. He's got an Instagram account that's really active.

17:29There is a cult of personality. With that, you also do bring attention when you need it to get your voice heard in a way we don't hear from some other sports all the time. It was actually Aishiyah Hansen, the former FIFA council member, who said to me, it's just so sad because FIFA already has the biggest jewel in the crown in world sport, the World Cup, already makes a lot of money. It's not having to sort of desperately search for cash like some sports are. If Infantino doesn't stand for re-election, or let's say he does, but people want to put up someone against him, who would your money be on?

18:01There are a few potential candidates. Victor Montagliani, the CONCACAF president, who's running football in North and Central America and the Caribbean. He kept a distance from all the politics around Donald Trump during the World Cup build-up and the World Cup. He was never in the Oval Office with Gianni Infantino. So he's someone potentially who could be in the running. Then from Europe, does the UEFA president, Alexander Sheffrin, want to go for it? Qatari official Nasser Al-Khalifi very powerful in the world of sport because he doesn't only run Paris Saint-Germain but also BIN the big global broadcasting network which includes sports channels also runs Qatar Sports Investments as well and he leads the European Football Clubs the umbrella organisation for the elite clubs in Europe which is also working in tandem with FIFA and the Club World Cup A few people to keep an eye on then Rob, thanks so much And if you'd like to get in touch with your suggestions for future episodes, you can email us at y at sky.uk.

19:01And this is why we'll be back tomorrow.

19:26uncover the deeper stories behind each of them, you will see how together they tell a fascinating new story about the world we live in. The first full series of Stuff Matters is out now. Just search for it on your podcast app and follow.