Why Labour’s ‘Action Man’ Al Carns could challenge for No 10

0:02Sky News, the full story first.

0:10Al Carn's quitting isn't just bad for Keir Starmer. It could be a major twist in a Labour leadership contest. And this is why.

0:27Al Carns:Within the situation, I need to do what is right by the armed forces. And if I don't think that's right, then I will absolutely consider my position. And from my perspective at the moment, we have not closed with this deal. When we have closed with this deal, I will decide my position. Right, so you're putting number 10 on notice effectively. If you don't get what you believe is right for the armed forces out of this defence investment plan, you will also follow John Healy out the door. I will decide on my position within the government. That was the then Armed Forces Minister Al Karnes speaking to my colleague Cathy Newman on Thursday night.

0:59He made it clear he was just as unhappy about the allocated military spending as Defence Secretary John Healy, who'd resigned earlier in the day. Within an hour, Karnes had also quit, his position untenable, with Downing Street and the Treasury refusing to budge on the defence investment plan. Some might say that the loss of a junior minister shouldn't be too much of an issue, given everything else the government's got to worry about. But Karnes is no ordinary MP. A former Marine and member of the Special Forces, he served five tours in Afghanistan. And despite only being elected in 2024, he also appears to have his own leadership ambitions, which could yet propel him to the very top of government.

1:41I'm Mari Arora and with me is Sky's political correspondent, Amanda Akas. It's been a rough couple of days, hasn't it, Amanda, for the government? And Al Qans' resignation has contributed to that. So start us off by explaining how his resignation came about. Yes, well, as you say, it's been a really tumultuous few days in Westminster. We all know the Prime Minister's already really on the ropes. And one of the issues that's really been hanging over the government in recent months is the issue of how much more money they're going to put in defence. We all know the threats the country faces from Russia, the instability in the Middle East.

2:19And the government has been promising that they would be announcing this since last autumn. But there have clearly been big rows behind the scene about where the money is actually going to come from. And then suddenly, dramatically, we had the resignation of the Defence Secretary, John Healy. Absolute shock to many in Westminster. I mean, that was a shock enough in and of itself, right? Absolutely, because he was such a Starmer loyalist and someone that was seen as so calm, such a kind of safe pair of hands. But he effectively put out this pretty incendiary letter saying he'd come to the end of his tether.

2:49He couldn't stay on because the amount of money that the Treasury were offering him, 13 and a half billion over four years, was much less than the 18 billion that he had been expecting or the 28 billion that the military wanted. And he basically said that's not enough to keep our country safe. and really very critical of the prime minister himself, saying he's unable to get this through. The Treasury were unwilling. But then we had an extraordinary situation in the evening when Al-Khans, who is an armed forces minister, he's a bit of a rising star in the party, tips as a possible leadership contender himself.

3:23Now, there was a lot of speculation. What was he going to do? Because he's someone who always speaks up for the armed forces. He was a Royal Marine for 24 years. I mean, he was speaking to Sky News, what, a matter of minutes before his resignation. And he was asked about that. And we were all watching with bated breath, Cathy Newman, weren't we? Figuring out what's he doing next? Yeah, it was extraordinary. I mean, firstly, it seemed like he hadn't been given permission by number 10 to come and do that interview. He said he didn't know whether the rest of government knew he was even there. And he was still a minister at that point.

3:54But he was devastatingly critical, really, about the defence investment plan, saying the money wasn't enough. And that's critical in such a dangerous world. So effectively saying, well, it's not enough to keep us safe, but also saying actually the plan itself, he was really unimpressed by effectively saying it isn't really for purpose in this day and age. It's not learning the lessons from Ukraine. It's too much focus on big, expensive kind of old fashioned military kit for the wars of the past and not looking ahead to the wars of the future, drones, AI capability, all of that stuff. So he was really very critical of all of it, which was quite extraordinary for someone who is a member of the government, effectively saying, we need to work this out.

4:32And Cathy kept asking him, well, does this mean you're going to resign if you've been considering your position? And he said, well, the deal's not finalised yet, so I'll wait and see what happens when it is. But it's my job to stand up for the people of the armed forces. And then, there you say, just a matter of minutes later, he published his own resignation, which was pretty blistering. I mean, he said, we owe those who serve the UK the kit to do the job and the loyalty to stand by them when it's done. We are failing on both. I've spent my whole time in government making that case. Number 10 will not listen.

5:00So that's why I'm resigning. I mean, quite extraordinary. What it seems happened is that after the interview, he spoke to Number 10 and they've made it pretty clear, well, they're not budging. They're not going to find some more money. And therefore, he decided his position was pretty unsustainable, given everything that he said about the paramount importance to him of standing up for the armed forces. But I think the other thing that I find fascinating is how much we have seen of Al Qans over the past 24, 36 hours compared to how much we've seen of John Healy. We have seen Al Qans on Sky News, on other channels.

5:32He's been interviewed in the newspapers. He's parading himself around almost in a way that John Healy hasn't really been. And I find that intriguing. And the question, I suppose, then is, is that because he wants to be the next Labour leader? Well, he's certainly not a shy character, is he? I mean, if people haven't seen what he looks like, he is a tall, imposing guy. He was the commander of the Special Boat Service, which is like the SAS, it's special forces. He served 24 years in Iraq, Afghanistan, Northern Ireland. He's a tough guy. And he's someone that I think isn't afraid of saying what he thinks.

6:13And in fact, I thought that was really striking in his interview with Cathy. One of the things he said was that perhaps he hadn't been brought into the defence investment plan earlier was because he's known to be quite disruptive and he's always been quite clear. In fact, he said the reason he came into politics in the first place after his distinguished career in the military was because he was worried that there wasn't enough thought being put about the future of technology and warfare, the use of drones and all of that. So clearly he's got very strong views. But yeah, I think it certainly seems he's not afraid to put himself out there.

6:40And also, I think when you read his longer letter, yes, it's about defence. It's also about the Northern Ireland Legacy Act, the Troubles Act, the bill the government's sort of been putting through, which is something else that's been very controversial for him, which is about the treatment of veterans who were involved in Northern Ireland and whether or not they might be called before potential future court cases as part of the reconciliation process there. and that's something that's been controversial. He says that's also part of the reason he's resigned because he's always had problems with that and he doesn't think the government's taken those into account.

7:12So tell me a bit more about Al-Khan's The Man. You say he's got this kind of decorated military career. He's nicknamed in some of the newspapers as Labour's action man for instance. So you know how much is he respected and revered in military circles as well as obviously parliamentary circles. Yes, I mean, he does have a fascinating background. So he was brought up by a single mum. He's one of five siblings in Aberdeen. He's 46 years old. He signed up for the Royal Marines when he was 19 and he rose through the ranks really quickly. He was commissioned and he ended up being very senior, commanding the special boat service.

7:50He's received medals for gallantry. We don't really know what exactly for because of the secret nature of the work that he was carrying out there. But he's talked previously about coming very close to death a number of times during his work. So I think that gives you a bit of a sense of kind of who he is. But he also has been involved in politics for a while in the sense that he was an advisor to three conservative defence secretaries, even briefed Donald Trump when he was president last time around and he came to the UK. So it's certainly, I guess, something he's had an eye on for a while, even though I think it perhaps shocked a few people in the military when he suddenly announced that he was going to go and stand to be a politician.

8:25Again, many in the military, a bit surprised perhaps he'd previously talked about voting Tory, but he obviously stood for Labour. He's the MP for Birmingham, Selly Oak, big majority there, more than 11 ,000. And so he's someone that as soon as he arrived in Westminster was appointed as veterans minister. And then last year he was promoted, became armed forces minister. I mean, that's quite a fast rise, isn't it? I mean, normally MPs, they pay their dues, they're on the back benches, you wouldn't get those kind of jobs straight in there. So I suppose that's testament to what Starmer and the government felt were his capabilities and his strengths and being able to not only be a minister basically straight away, but then also being promoted.

9:06I mean, that's quite a big deal. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's testament to his experiences now. I mean, he's obviously had an extraordinary experience in the armed forces and being a real leader in the circumstances that most people couldn't even imagine. And certainly, if you talk to anyone in the military, they all really rate him. They rave about him. I mean, he's someone who obviously has charisma. He's a very tall guy. He's a very big guy. I mean, and he's continued to kind of lean into that action man persona. Last year, he broke a world record climbing Everest in five days using a special kind of gas, which meant you didn't have to acclimatise because he didn't have the time to do that because he's a government minister, raising money for charities alongside some other veterans.

9:48He's still in the reservist. You know, there were some photos earlier this year of him training in the Arctic. He's someone who's also quite outspoken on social media, perhaps you could put it that way. I mean, I think particularly one moment that really raised his profile was after Donald Trump made his comments saying that British soldiers hadn't served on the front lines in Afghanistan. And he issued a calm but quite devastating riposte to that saying it was absolutely ridiculous and talking, you know, about his comrades in arms who had seen fighting and dying alongside him. So I suppose it's testament to that, but also, I guess, a nod to Labour.

10:21Well, we know the debate they're having at the moment between the more left side of the party and the more centrist wing of the party, obviously being a lot of concerns about the threats they face from the right, the threats they're facing from reform. And I guess someone like him is someone who perhaps looks more towards the voters that they were concerned about losing to the right as well. So let's talk about that for a sec, because when I've spoken to people from other parties, not just the Labour Party, you know, you talk to Tories and they say Al-Khan's easily could have just been one of us, right?

10:49Now, that might not be the case, but they feel that actually Al-Khan is less ideological perhaps than many other MPs. And really, his focus is defence in the armed forces and perhaps slightly less particular ideologies around whatever it might be on policy areas. And I suppose the question is, how much of a surprise was it when Al-Khan stood for Labour? Yes, I mean, I think he's not necessarily a typical ideological Labour figure, is he? I think he's spoken in the past as well. You know, he's not someone who put Labour posters on his wall as a teenager and certainly voted Tory in the past because he worked for a number of Tory defence secretaries as well.

11:33So I think that perhaps is a risk for him within the Labour Party, particularly if he did run for the leadership and how popular he would be with the party members. Al Kahn's, after the local elections, devastating local elections for Labour, he wrote in the New Statesman, I believe, really from a perspective of coming from a working class background and about working class voters and Labour's relationship with them. Just remind us what he said and the points he was trying to make there. Well, I think this was really the moment that the chatter in Westminster about the possibility some of his allies have been sounding him out as a possible future, dark horse leadership candidate really crystallized into the mainstream because he wrote an article for the New Statesman, the Bible of the Labour supporters, setting out really what he thought the problems are with the Labour government and a kind of mission for what needs to change, which I think was quite an effort to break him away from his core focus on defence, as we were just saying, but also move him into a broader positioning for government, really, because he He was saying, what is the point of Labour if we're not representing working class people in our Labour heartlands?

12:43And talking about the fact that defence, and this is an argument that he's made in his resignation letter and in some of the interviews he's been giving, that he doesn't believe that security is just about defence and the armed forces. And I think this is his pitch to show why he can be a leader across all areas of government. He's saying, but no, it's also, it's about the economy, it's about people having a job, it's about people getting a fair wage for a good day's work. It's about being able to get your kids to a good school, to be able to be treated when you're ill on the NHS and a sense of community.

13:12And I guess leadership was basically what he's saying is needed. And I think many people saw that article and thought, oh, no, he is seriously talking about potentially making a pitch for the leadership, which I think was compounded by. Do you remember that week when Wes Streeting resigned and everyone was on resignation? How could we forget? They were going to collapse like a house of cards at that point. And Andy Burnham, you know, throwing his hat into the ring and so on. but he posted on X a photo of him sort of having a pint of beer in a pub saying have a great evening everyone and he does post pictures of his day-to-day life and pictures of his dog who's called Maverick by the way quite often him having a barbecue but it just seemed like it was the most subtle not really subtle if you know a sign that perhaps he was looking to use this to raise his profile potentially.

14:09Okay, so let's look at Alcanz's future politically. You say he's very tall. He is a decorated military man. He's branded as action man by some of the papers. He's respected by many military officials. He is in some ways, perhaps everything that Starmer is not. But of course, he is perhaps seen as more centrist or slightly on the right in the party. So when it comes to his future, how likely do we think it is that he could actually even be in with a shot? Were he to run? He hasn't ruled it out. He hasn't ruled it in. Were he to run in that leadership race? Well, he is the antithesis of the kind of loyally, careful, cautious Starmer, isn't he, in that sense?

14:58I mean, I think what's really interesting is the metaphors that he's using around this. He kind of says, if someone fires a starting gun, I'm not scared of gunfire. He's also talking about, oh, well, I'm someone who always runs to the sound of gunfire. A crisis needs the best people. I mean, I think he's making it very clear that he's not ruling himself out. I mean, he's not saying, yes, I'm going to challenge for the leadership. And in fact, you know, speaking to Cathy Newman last night, he was quite supportive of Keir Starmer in some ways. And he said he thought he was a man of integrity, he was a good man trying to do the right thing.

15:24And it's a very difficult job, which clearly it is. But at the same time, he's made it very clear that he's someone who is ambitious. He says he would only do it for the right reasons to fight for what he believes in. But I think that's what everyone would say if that's the job that they're going for. I mean, I think, interestingly, at this one, he was also asking that classic question, if the ball came free at the back of the scrum, something we hear ever after Boris Johnson talked about that. He didn't just say yes. He said, well, I'm good at rugby and football. I'm always up for playing. So I think he's clearly a really competitive guy.

15:53I think that's also something else that's part of this. I think he does see himself as clearly an outsider. But would he be with a shot. I think he's signalling he would definitely go for it. And certainly, compared to the other potential candidates, clearly, there's no official leadership contest triggered yet. But if we're saying in a potential future contest, if you had Keir Starmer, Andy Byrne and Wes Streeting, Alcans would be a very different kind of challenger. He's got quite a story to tell. I think it's interesting where he positions himself, what we were saying before, potentially something to the right.

16:26Some of his discussions about representing the working class, I think, you know, obviously that's his background from where he grew up in Aberdeen. I think maybe he thinks that perhaps he can straddle that more socially right wing, but also economically trying to stand up for people from more of a working class background. Perhaps that's something that he would look to do. But I think the criticism of him would be he is very new. He's only been in politics for a couple of years. He doesn't have experience in all the huge other spectrum of government, the NHS, hospitals, schools, welfare, you know, all of that.

16:58Managing departments in Whitehall, you know, people say often it takes you a very, very long time to understand how government works, how slow that machine can be, how to find ways to circumvent difficulties. All that political experience, I suppose, he would be lacking, right? Yes. And I think it's interesting. The argument for Keir Starmer was always, well, he's someone who's real world experience. He's run a government department, but he's not someone who's just been involved in politics his whole life so that he brings out external experience. But actually, that's made life very difficult for him because perhaps you could say he hasn't really had the kind of political skill, the political kind of depth and experience in order to bring his party with him and get things done.

17:37And you could perhaps say that Al-Khans is also coming from that kind of situation, but clearly a very different kind of leader. But certainly, I think he's signalling he would like to give it a go. In relation to Keir Starmer, how much has not only the John Healy resignation, but the Arkhan's resignation potentially damaged and weakened the PM's position? I think it's a real killer blow to him, isn't it? I mean, he was already on the rocks. He's had the resignation of West Streeting, his health secretary. But he's someone who we've known for a long time has been behind the scenes plotting his own ambitions, you could say.

18:20We know there are many Labour MPs who've called for Sikir Starmer to go publicly and privately. Clearly, they were devastating results in the local elections coming off the Mandelson scandal. He's in big trouble. we know Andy Burnham is in the wings hoping to be able to be in a position to challenge him. He's been very forthright about the fact that he would like to do that. Starmer says that he would fight in any such contest. But I think Starmer's remaining argument for why he's the best person for the job is that he's a serious person, that he puts the country's security first. He's had his problems on the domestic front, of course, but on the international stage, that's where he's been successful in standing up for Ukraine in the Middle East, in launching the coalition of the willing and trying to stand up to Donald Trump.

19:07And I think all of that is just completely eviscerated really by what John Healy has had to say, because he's basically in his resignation letter, and indeed, in Al-Khan's resignation letter, both of them have said, well, we're really proud of all these things that we've been doing with our military and everything that you said, including a big speech at the Munich Security Conference not very long ago about how all nations need to be stronger to spend more on their military, to stand on their own two feet, not to rely on the US so much. But fundamentally, John Healy is saying you're not willing to actually have the fight to put your money where your mouth is.

19:41And therefore, all of this is just rhetoric. So even on that kind of remaining area in which Starmer still had that credibility, in the eyes of some, I think this has kind of shot it to pieces, really, because I think then it's also a case that John Healy was a real loyalist for him. And so by losing him, how many more figures in the cabinet are there who are really prepared to put their necks on the line for Starmer when it comes to it if a contest is triggered, which may happen very soon. Indeed. Very, very tricky for the Prime Minister. Very, very painful for the Prime Minister. Amanda, thanks so much.

20:12Thank you. For plenty more on the country's defensive difficulties, you can scroll back through previous episodes. And don't forget to send us your ideas and suggestions for future episodes to why.sky.uk. And this is why we'll be back on Monday.