Why the government defended its wildfires alert

0:01Sky News, the full story first.

0:10One emergency message, millions of phones and the first proper test of Andy Burnham's communications machine. This is why.

0:26Hello, Ed Conway here. Here is what might sound like a slightly random question. What do AirPods, bananas and a pair of shoddily made running trainers from the 1970s have in common. On the surface, not very much. But on my podcast, Stuff Matters, I will uncover the deeper stories behind each of them. You will see how, together, they tell a fascinating new story about the world we live in. The first full series of Stuff Matters is out now. Just search for it on your podcast app and follow.

1:00Chelsea placed a deadline on clubs to make their offers for the midfielder by five o 'clock today. All the phones going crazy in here. Let me turn that down. We've got a government alert, actually, we're hearing, which I guess you've all got at home. But we are going to press on with the transfers. Whatever you happen to be on Friday evening, down the pub, driving home or even talking transfers on Sky Sports News, there's a very good chance your phone was making exactly the same noise. Now, usually when the government wants to tell you something, it starts with people like me. There's an announcement, someone does an interview.

1:33We spend all day explaining it, and maybe you notice, or maybe you don't. On Friday, they skipped all of that. Millions of phones across England and Wales sounded an emergency siren, warning about the risk of wildfire.

1:51Well, we certainly noticed that. But did it actually work? Or just annoy an awful lot of people, send others into a panic, and leave some fire services dealing with a rush of confused calls. And there's a reason this story feels bigger than just one alert. Andy Burnham has built a government that wants to speak to us directly, early, often, and usually through him. That's fine when the message lands, but what happens when it doesn't? Joe Tanner is a communications strategist who's spent years advising politicians and organisations on what to say when things get difficult.

2:30Jo, always lovely to see you. How was your Friday night? Specifically, what were you doing at 7pm? That's a very good question. Do you know, I can't even remember where it went. I wasn't doing anything. I wasn't one of these people that was at the theatre or on a plane where it went off and scared the hell out of them. I think I was actually seeing a friend and I was getting ready and I thought what on earth is this and it feels like quite a long time ago that we had one of these so I wasn't quite sure what it was and when I looked to be honest I read it and I still wasn't quite sure what it was because I didn't really understand why it was coming through in the way that it it had and I was expecting a sort of another one to be like so we're warning you about this and what you should do is it did feel slightly odd and I guess somewhat unnecessarily alarmist.

3:16So from a professional's point of view, you are of the opinion that perhaps this was not the best way for the government to communicate this information? Yeah, I mean, I don't agree that it was the right method. This felt that it came very much from nowhere. And you would have expected it to be there is a wildfire in your area, you need to be ready to evacuate as opposed to there is a risk of wildfires across the country, don't use a barbecue that's disposable. It didn't really feel that it matched up to the severity of the situation maybe for some people and the lack of severity that some others were not experiencing anything near them and therefore why have the alert at all?

3:57Is it a problem that clearly there were a number of people who were actually, if not incredibly traumatised by this siren going off, were definitely shocked by it. It certainly made quite a few people worried. Yeah, I think it is a problem, but I think the government could certainly say they could come out a bit more combative about it and say, look, we recognise that this is a major problem. We recognise that there hasn't been the level of understanding about how severe these wildfires are and how easy they are to take off. It's not something in the UK we're used to. And we took the decision to take a very drastic move.

4:30But I think they haven't really done that. They've sort of stood behind it, but not in a way that really rationalises it. even an element of contrition from the government to say, you know, maybe it wasn't the best format, but we were trying something because of the situation that the fire brigade had put us in, the conversations that we've been having about the severity of this. Those alerts are incredibly useful. They were set up for a good reason. The system itself was set up. But I think you have to recognise that you have to use them very sparingly and for very, very significant reason. The government would almost be better at this stage to just say, look, we did it.

5:06We thought it was right. We're really sorry for any trauma it caused. We will be very mindful about doing it again, rather than just standing behind it and kind of, I suppose, almost ignoring some of the concerns that that method has managed to generate. So where should the threshold be for? Let's not forget setting off tens of millions of phones without your permission on a Friday night. I mean, where should the threshold be for activating that particular system? Well, I think that's where there is ultimately a big question about the government being honest about the system and why it was in place.

5:41I mean, it was originally, I think, set up around imminent threat to life was sort of the explanation that had been used. And the government have got to be super careful because they increasingly hold more and more data on people. The public are, you know, very suspicious about how much the government knows, how much the government should know. And so abuse of a system where you target people's direct communications, where you actually have a situation where you have a communication that is unwanted and interrupts your life, then surely there has to be a serious conversation about where that threshold is.

6:13And I would probably bet that when MPs go back to Parliament, there will be a debate on this. There will be a proper discussion about what should the threshold look like, because you cannot have a situation where you are putting lives at risk with a message about not using you know disposable barbecues but you've set off someone's hidden phone because they're terrified of their violent husband like where does the threat to life then come in you've basically put that person in danger now there is no way louise haig or anybody in government would have ever wanted to do that the intent was i'm sure perfectly reasonable on their side they thought they were doing the right thing.

6:52But we also have to acknowledge that people get it wrong sometimes, and it would probably be better to just from a communications point of view and sort of rebuilding, I suppose, a bit of trust. It'd be better to just call it now and say, we thought we were doing the right thing. We looked at the tools we had. It seemed to be the best option for us. And maybe that's because people are on holiday. They don't have the same routines. They don't read the same newspapers. They don't watch the same TV programs. They don't always view the same social media. We just wanted to grab everyone's attention.

7:22Maybe we got it wrong. We stand by it. We thought it was the right thing to do, but we'll be mindful when we do it again. Sometimes that's better to just draw the line and then move on rather than just keep trying to back what doesn't particularly look like a convincing argument right now. Joe, were you in any way surprised that there hasn't been over the course of this summer, some form of campaign, some attempt by the government to educate people about not just the risks of wildfires. But the whole situation that we find ourselves in, for them to use the emergency alert does seem a little bit like taking the sledgehammer to the walnut.

7:58Yeah, I think there should have by now been a proper campaign around what severe heat means as a, I suppose, an overarching campaign. And that should then be about personal, directed, targeted information about what you can do. You remember during COVID, we were all told to sing happy birthday to ourself and wash our hands and that meant our hands were clean why aren't we doing the the equivalent and saying sing happy birthday to yourself twice and that's enough time in the shower folks you know we should be having something a bit more concrete that cuts through because this isn't just about an adult that's banging on the door and telling their child to get out of the shower this is that wider awareness piece about water use water conservation and also then your personal responsibility that if you're out and about what should you do so i do think there is a much wider conversation that should be happening and one of the challenges is we have this around flooding where who's responsible for what we spend a lot of money and a lot of time looking at how to prevent flooding for example but does that mean we've spent a lot of time preventing where water goes but then actually should we be looking more at where water goes in order to ensure there's a better supply and does that play in more to the the issue of why we haven't had more reservoirs built do we need to look again at planning and why people object to having a reservoir near them because there's a choice do you want the water supply or do you not if you don't want to have a reservoir in your area well you know what the taps might run dry one day and maybe that is a bigger societal conversation that the government should be leaning into they may not have all the answers but it certainly feels like there could be more that they could be doing and I'm trying to give them a chance because they're new in post but that isn't going to help us if the water's running out.

9:48Hello, Ed Conway here. Here's what might sound like a slightly random question. What do AirPods, bananas and a pair of shoddily made running trainers from the 1970s have in common? On the surface, not very much. But on my podcast, Stuff Matters, I will uncover the deeper stories behind each of them, you will see how together they tell a fascinating new story about the world we live in. The first full series of Stuff Matters is out now. Just search for it on your podcast app and follow.

10:27I'll tell you one thing that will absolutely certainly have followed from what happened at 7pm on Friday. And that will be that the number of people who've gone online today to find out how to switch off government alerts will have gone through the roof. Yeah, I mean, I probably out of curiosity am keeping mine on to see what the next thing is, just in case it might be entertaining or useful. I don't know. But I have heard a lot of people say that they're turning them off. And I've had conversations with people. I said, well, how do you do that? I didn't know you could. And they know exactly how to do it.

10:56And that is, in my view, a very difficult consequence that the government do have to deal with now. They have created a situation. And again, I do think it is inadvertently. I think it was just a misguided step with the right intentions, but the wrong execution. But I think it will have damaged some confidence and it will have said to people, I'm not comfortable that the government can get in contact with me anyway. And I'm certainly not if it doesn't feel like it was for the right reasons. I do think as well, what we saw on Friday is indicative of a broader kind of change in the communication strategy that we've seen in Labour since Andy Burnham replaced Keir Starmer.

11:31I mean, just look at the way in which he handled the alert himself. He was up there in Starbridge pointing out that the country was a tinderbox, defending the alert. This is a government who pretty much from day one, the use of social media has been quite influential in the strategy that Andy Burnham has chosen to execute. And I find it weird that there hasn't been more on social media. I mean, I've got TikTok, I've got Twitter, I've got Instagram, Facebook etc I've not seen anything telling me anything around this subject and I'd have thought that would have been at least stage one before you know or maybe if you call it stage five you'd have tried you know some adverts in newspapers some information going to news outlets like Sky News or or to radio stations and you know some sort of public information adverts you'd have had stuff on social media you'd have had MPs doing things you'd have you'd have had Andy Burnham in a towel getting out of the shower saying oh I had half I was half the time I timed it it might not be an image you necessarily want to see but the point is he's trying to be that bit more communicative and actually if you had had someone with marigolds on doing some washing up maybe not the shower but the principle being if you'd had something that would have got people's attention because it was a bit out of the ordinary I'd have done that first rather than go to a an alert that sort of scared everybody yeah because on every other major policy announcement that this government has made, it has been Andy Burnham front and centre saying, I am launching this.

12:59I am announcing today. He has very much positioned himself, not just as the centre of government, but as government itself. And I'm not sure whether that is always a winning strategy. I think the strategy was very much that people didn't know him. If you lived outside of Manchester, did you really know who this guy was who'd been in government a long time ago and this king of the north label? So I think there was a desire to sort of position him in a way that people could connect with him because they knew that that was so different than what Keir Starmer had previously presented. But I think we've now heard that, you know, Louise Haig was involved in overseeing that alert going out.

13:38It's not just the politicians. The civil servants have got a case to answer about why they potentially went with that route and what was their logic, what was their thinking through that. and also you know when we saw the early release scheme we saw Alex Norris being sort of thrust out as being the person that Andy Burnham was charging to go and find out how to ensure that PC Harper's killers would not be released for example so there is an element of yes Prime Minister at centre stage but then trying other names are coming into the frame and possibly putting them in as shall we say slightly sort of defensive mechanisms in front of him so that they can sort of take the flack or whatever.

14:17But I do think if we go back, I do wonder if in a few weeks we'll hear something around there being maybe a degree of panic within the cabinet office about this alert going out. And maybe it's just a new naive government. They just didn't think it through. So clearly a government that is wanting to make itself better heard. But from what you've seen so far, is it the case that it is communicating more effectively or just that it's shouting more loudly? No, I think to give them their credit, I think they are communicating more effectively. But I also think the alert feels like the misstep in there and the general, what I would call public information work, I think severely lacking when we talk about the issue of the heatwave and also what that means for water.

15:01But I think more generally, they're communicating quite effectively on the issues and actually kind of caring about them, having some understanding of the impact of them. I think, you know, you can't take away from Andy Burnham how impressive that social care speech was when he talked about his dad. He talked about, you know, the seven minute visit. He talked about stuff in a way that people could understand and that they could actually sort of picture. They could get it. And it's almost a way that Nigel Farage has been incredibly good at talking in a way that people would understand, talking about issues that people care about.

15:37I think Andy Burnham's come in very much in that vein. But in the way that Nigel Farage can just announce a policy or an idea or show outrage, it's much easier to do that in opposition than it is when you're in government. Because when you're in government, you're expected to have an answer as well. And your answer can't just be, I'd like to do this. The answer actually has to be backed up with a proper plan of action and how you're going to get there. And that is where it's a lot more difficult. And I think for Andy Burnham, he's having to transition from being a mayor that ultimately as a mayor you're sort of coordinating things quite a lot you are responsible for some things directly but on a lot of the big things you can just blame national government for never giving you the money or giving you the ability to change stuff well suddenly you're now national government and it's all your fault that things aren't happening so there's probably a bit of a personality change that a process that Andy Burnham's having to go through to understand that he can't just blame other people anymore he's going to have to sort of work out the answers it's not just going to be as simple as putting a call into number 10 and saying we need something else the problem is he is number 10 now and that's a much more difficult role joe always a pleasure thanks very much indeed that's your lot for today i do get in touch with your thoughts plenty of you have done in fact in response to friday's episode also on the wildfires but on the steps we can take to try and better protect ourselves and our families paul says this a little research indicates the uk has no official firefighting helicopters and aircraft.

16:59It seems extremely urgent action is required to provide the necessary assistance. Fair point there, Paul. This from Gillian. How do we know the Stourbridge house fires were caused via wildfires? Every school holiday, fires in derelict buildings are started by kids who think it a great joke to see the firemen arrive. I suppose, Gillian, does it matter how the fire starts if it's coming close to your house because of all that dry tinder and kindling that has been caused by the weather. Anyway, do let us know what you thought about today. Why at sky.uk is the email. We're back tomorrow.

17:44Hello, Ed Conway here. Here's what might sound like a slightly random question. What do AirPods, bananas, and a pair of shoddily made running trainers from the 1970s have in common? On the surface, not very much. But on my podcast, Stuff Matters, I will uncover the deeper stories behind each of them. You will see how, together, they tell a fascinating new story about the world we live in. The first full series of Stuff Matters is out now. Just search for it on your podcast app and follow.