Why TV’s The Wargame exposes some uncomfortable truths

0:02Sky News, the full story first.

0:11I knew it was an exercise. I knew the crisis was invented. But watching Sky's The War Game still scared me. And this is why.

0:25The most excruciating period of politics that I can ever remember. I have to say as a government minister, never quite sure what the Cabinet Office did, but just hold meetings. It's gone down like a bucket of sick. I kind of thought that decades of experience meant that you weren't swallowing this vapid... Oh, blimey! Hello and welcome to Electoral Dysfunction with me, Beth Rigby. Me, Ruth Davidson. Me, Harriet Harman. And me, Jess Phillips. Electoral Dysfunction, wherever you get your podcasts.

1:04The War Game Well, that wasn't a relaxing couple of hours in front of the telly. Hi everyone, Neil here, and I've just watched the first two episodes of The War Game. And even though I knew full well it's a simulation, I found it terrifying. We currently have one destroyer capable of shooting down a ballistic missile. Just one vessel. I ask you to remain calm and to follow official advice. Sky's new TV series follows the highly successful podcast many of you will have listened to before, including, in fact, the head of the armed forces we had on last week. And it goes like this. Take a bunch of experienced politicians, military figures and intelligence experts, stick them in a bunker and put them through a simulated Russian attack on Britain.

1:47One thing in particular stands out, which is the ability of Britain to defend itself from a missile attack. There is a huge hole in our capacity to protect our homeland. Michael Gove is Prime Minister. Nicholas Sturgeon is his deputy. That alone takes a bit of getting used to. But the serious question is what this tells us about our ability to defend ourselves. Former Labour advisor Ayesha, now Baroness Hazarika, took on the role of the government's Director of Communications. Ayesha, great to have you on the podcast. The war game you knew from the get-go that this was an exercise, that this was role-playing.

2:25But was there any point during the filming when it stopped feeling like one? I was really surprised how quickly we got into it. So at the beginning, you know, when we were getting ready for it and sort of on day one, there was part of me, you know, you're getting your hair and makeup done. So I was thinking, I mean, this is all a bit weird. This is like kind of Dungeons and Dragons. So like this is a bit kind of, you know, like some kind of weird sort of, you know, role-playing sort of thing. and then I was really surprised at how all of us kind of collectively suspended our disbelief and got into it so so quickly and I think that is because there's a number of reasons first of all even though it's fiction and this is not real we have all played those roles so nobody was having to act at how they would be in those scenarios everybody had sort of been around the cabinet table in some way and all the security and intelligence advisors had done that that job the sort of physical setup of the room and having the military advisors and things like that that was all very real as well and also there was so much of this which yes it is fictional it's really important to keep saying this so much of it is actually reflecting geopolitics like there was one moment when we did have like a wee break from filming it was very very intense so that's the other thing it felt like it was very in real time like things were changing very very quickly new information and that that would happen in real life if you were in crisis but there was one moment where we did have a bit of respite having a cup of tea and I think it was Penny Mordaunt who actually was looking at her phone and she was like oh my god you're not going to believe this there is actually a Russian vessel in the English channel right now and everybody was like is this we were like is this part of the game like is this part of the exercise she was like no no and we all looked at our phones and we were like oh my god there it there was a whole story about the english channel and a russian vessel so that did make it all feel real but there is one moment i don't want to give too much away towards the end of the filming where i suddenly felt it was so overwhelming and so intense and i actually felt physically sick like properly physically sick and i had to leave the room for like 10 minutes because i was just like this is actually, it felt so real on a visceral, physical level.

4:41It felt frightening. It did feel frightening. Wow. Well, let's pause, hit rewind and just get you to explain what exactly is a war game and how did this one actually work? So a war game is essentially a kind of operational exercise, which is done in secret. And these things happen quite regularly, very, very behind the scenes. And this happens not just for military scenarios, you know, pandemics, and we know that there have been operations like this before, but these kind of exercises do happen behind the scenes and should be happening behind the scenes. And Sky's brilliant defence and security editor, Deborah Haynes, had this idea for doing it as a podcast, a very, very successful podcast, won lots of awards, took people sort of behind the scenes of if there was a scenario where Britain was attacked, to sort of raise the curtain in terms of how would the information be given to senior politicians?

5:42What is the kind of information that they would receive? How would they assimilate that information critically? How would they make those key life or death decisions? and this TV show has tried to kind of bring that to life visually and I think these things obviously are done in a very secretive way they sort of have to be but because the world has changed so much you know I would say to you Neil that 10 years ago defence was not being talked about in the media it was not being talked about because we were in a very very very different world now it is so much of our time is now dedicated to discussing defense issues military issues there is war raging in europe now you know you look at what's happening in the middle east all of these things are not kind of slightly nerdy hypotheticals these are all things that we need to to think about and i think that's what attracted me to to do this a to educate myself more because as a journalist now, I am very interested in defence issues.

6:48But also it just made me think we have got to have a wider conversation about these difficult, often, let's be honest, quite scary scenarios. Who actually was in the room? Because it was quite the government that you managed to assemble. Yeah, the cast list was really impressive. And when the cast list was revealed, I was quite shocked in a good way because I never would have thought to put and I wouldn't have put those people together and also I never thought they would agree to be in the same room as each other. So obviously the kind of top two jobs, Michael Gove is Prime Minister, I told you it was scary, and Nicola Sturgeon is Deputy Prime Minister.

7:31Now those two people. Wait a minute, sorry. The former First Minister of Scotland who wants an independent Scotland serving as number two in the British government. Yes, exactly. I was thinking, forget there being like war from the Russians, there's probably going to be war in that room in terms of the two of them. Because also, they're both very senior politicians. You know, you might not agree with them, but they're formidable intellects. They're very, very, very strident and strong in their views. They've got very different political ideologies, not just on the union, but on things like defence as well.

8:03Remember, the SNP have always historically been against Trident and nuclear weapons. You know, Michael Gove has been part of a party which is very, very hawkish on nuclear weapons and defence. So already there was this ideological sort of tension in the room. And other, just a great cast list, and Penny Mordent was defence secretary. Jim Murphy was the foreign secretary. Again, Jim Murphy and Nicola Sturgeon have not had an easy relationship. You know, they were absolute arch rivals. Harriet Harman was the home secretary. Saeed Avarci was the attorney general. And Saida Vars is so, so interesting because she's from a very military family.

8:41She's from a very proud tradition of, you know, conservative values, particularly on the military. But she's also somebody who is very, very, very much a believer in international law and the rule of law and how to do things. So there was a lot of, I would say, creative and intellectual and political tension around the room. And the other thing that really made it work, you had Sir Richard Barron, who's somebody who's incredibly experienced, doesn't take any hostages, will absolutely say it how it is. Sir Christopher Steele, who is one of our most eminent people in terms of security and intelligence, and Sir Kim Darroch, Lord Darroch, who had been not just the ambassador in Washington, but the kind of big security advisor in government.

9:31and they had this team of real experts who were all kind of military men and women who were giving us information in real time. And other great people who appear, Anthony Scaramucci, who plays, you know, kind of leading American politician. And of course, George Robertson, who of course is a very big voice and being a very critical voice against Keir Starmer on defence. But he himself is a former Secretary General of NATO. So you could not have hoped for a better cast list. Obviously, we don't want to throw in any spoilers here, but you guys did not know what was coming. The twists and turns as they happened, there wasn't a script that was presented to you beforehand.

10:11So just give us an idea of the scenario and how well these former political enemies actually work together. So we didn't know very much detail going in. We knew that the premise was going to be Britain was under attack and we had all listened to the excellent podcast, we had a sense that things were going to get pretty tough. And then we just got into it very, very quickly. The scenario started unfolding and they escalated very, very, very quickly. Look, some people might be thinking, oh, is this a bit dry? Is it all kind of politics? Is it all military? It really, really isn't. It is incredibly pacey and the speed at which things go.

10:58But I was so impressed at how everybody performed and everybody inhabited their role brilliantly because they had done that before in government. Look, this is a scary scenario and politics is very divided at the moment. A lot of people, wherever you sit in the political spectrum, are really frustrated with politics and really frustrated with leadership in this country. And I get that. And I'm somebody who regularly critiques politicians of all different political parties. But I think one of the things that is quite heartening and one of the things I was really encouraged by is when you do get a group of people who have had experience of politics, even though they're from different parties and they care about public service and they ultimately care about the country, they will come together and they will work together.

11:43Do you know, back in the day, of course, you know, our paths crossed when you were Director of Communications, our paths crossed professionally on a few occasions. And I will say, particularly in the second episode, there were a couple of times when I saw your face and it reminded me of you in full blown kind of, you know, Director of Commons in that very specific position. Were there moments during the recording of this television show that spoke directly to experiences that you had when you were in government? Oh, absolutely. I mean, obviously, none of us have been in a situation where Britain is being attacked and long may that continue.

12:19You know, there was absolutely times where you did feel things were in crisis. I mean, I remember the kind of fuel protests back in sort of 2000. And it was quite a new Labour government. And they'd never sort of experienced anything like this. And I remember I was a press officer at the time. It all escalated very, very, very quickly. And I do remember there was this kind of panic where the government kind of clearly felt this was getting away from them. And I remember sort of just getting some calls and some messages. We were all gathered in a bunker overnight in Whitehall in terms of were these fuel protests going to escalate?

12:56Was the country going to run out of fuel? All of these sort of things. I remember one meeting going in with the then prime minister and the equivalent of the top security services person and the chief of defense staff. And they gave the information and it was in the gravest possible terms. And I have to say, when I was in the war game and information was given, some of the most somber information, it did take me back into being in that room in Downing Street. And it was like, I felt, yeah, this does feel real. This does feel realistic.

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14:47One of the more fascinating things for me is the involvement of Michael Gove as Prime Minister. Because obviously, in another world, in another lifetime, he would have been Prime Minister. What was your assessment of how well he actually did in that role? I think Michael did a really good job. And I was fascinated to see how he would inhabit the role. Particularly, we are in an era of strongman geopolitics. You know, when you look around the world, you've got Trump, President Xi, President Putin. I was thinking, what kind of energy is he going to channel? Is he going to try and be sort of slamming the fist down on the table or is he going to be very different?

15:30And actually he was very different and he was tough when he needed to be. But I was pleasantly surprised at how thoughtful he was. I mean, he obviously had a strong sense of what he believed in, but there was genuinely so much interesting, rich discussion around the table where there were profoundly different views about what to do in these very, very difficult positions. And sometimes he had to be quite tough. But if you are the prime minister, you have to ultimately the buck stops with you, right? Ultimately, you are the person. You take soundings. You take counsel. good leaders and good prime ministers will allow a lot of space to have those debates but ultimately you have to decide i have to say that the headline takeaway from our discussion aisha hazarika thinks michael gove would make a great prime minister it's not one i saw coming but i'm very pleased to hear it also can i just say for can i say for complete balance the other i mean everybody was great but the other person who was so impressive is nicola sturgeon you know i've got very different politics michael gove i've got very different politics nicola sturgeon particularly on independence.

16:39She was brilliant. Look, it is not a spoiler for the war game to say, Aisha, that, you know, there has been an awful lot more discussion of late about the threats that Russia poses directly to the United Kingdom and indeed the state of our military. Well, I mean, I had the Chief of Defence Staff on the podcast the other day pointing out that it has been hollowed out over decades for a number of reasons. I suppose what this really puts into sharp focus is what we are lacking right now and that if this unlikely scenario were to emerge today we would not be able to defend ourselves to the extent that we might imagine I think that is the most profound takeaway from this show and I think that's something that we all felt very acutely and I think if this show does one thing, it does spark a big national conversation about defence, about defence spending, but also what kind of defence we need, about how modern warfare has changed.

17:44And there is obviously in terms of actual sort of attacks, but there's the grey zone of war now, which is cyber attacks, misinformation, disinformation on social media, all of those kind of things. So we've got to have a big national conversation about that. But I think it's got to not just be a conversation amongst politicians and military people. It's got to be a conversation that involves the public and citizens. Because if something like this happened, it's not just the country's defence systems that are going to be tested. It is our resilience across our communities at a national level, but more importantly, a regional level at a local level as well.

18:29We have to have conversations how prepared we are, household to household, schools, colleges, workplaces, local NHS, critical infrastructure, all of these kinds of things. Because my strong sense of all of this is we cannot wait until there is a crisis. Has your participation in the war game changed anything in your own life. You said it was scary. I watched the first two episodes today and I had to take 10 minutes, go outside the building and have a breather. I was genuinely, there were points at which I was genuinely terrified in a way in which I wasn't when I listened to the podcast. Seeing it visualized really did bring it home to me.

19:08But, you know, we had the Chief of Defence staff on this podcast not that long ago talking about these sorts of scenarios. And he said that at the unlikelier end of the spectrum of possibilities. From your experience, just explain why a series like this is not then alarmist and that it is something that people should be watching. It is scary to think about these things and I'm not going to deny that, but I think people have to watch it knowing that it is fiction, it is not real. But I think it's always better to start having these conversations and thinking about these things because the best way to prepare for something like this and to insulate yourself from something terrible like this happening is to be prepared this is ultimately about protecting the public and the first duty of any government whatever your kind of political ideology is to protect citizens and i do hope that this show plays a wee part in terms of doing that and having better conversations Ayesha, thanks very much indeed.

20:15Thank you. And that's a lot for today. Do remember to get in touch with your views. Plenty of you got in touch after our episode about Charles Spencer publishing a book containing revelations about the life of his sister Diana. Shannon says this, I would like to ask why after all this time he is telling these stories, what exactly does he hope to get out of these revelations apart from money? Stavros says, if someone ever asked me to become a royal, I would say not on your nelly mate. Stavros, you and me both. Why at sky.uk is the email. We're back tomorrow.

20:57The most excruciating period of politics that I can ever remember. I have to say as a government minister, never quite sure what the Cabinet Office did, but just hold meetings. It's gone down like a bucket of sick. I kind of thought that decades of experience meant that you weren't swallowing this vapid... Oh, blimey! Hello and welcome to Electoral Dysfunction with me, Beth Rigby. Me, Ruth Davidson. Me, Harriet Harman. And me, Jess Phillips. Electoral Dysfunction, wherever you get your podcasts.