#579 - Mark Zuckerberg

31:00But the other thing is, I just think like having good mentors or teachers, no matter what the actual class is, like when I was in boarding school, I really liked studying Latin and Greek. And that's like not useful for any practical thing, but it's like um but it's it's fun and like it's fun it's fun it's fun i think it's there are parts of it that are fun for sure and the tests that that i had to take were you know it's they would you know you'd be reading these kind of great works um and the test would be they'd pull out any word in like whatever the you know third of a book was that was kind of that that kind a section of the class and they'd like show you a sentence and then they'd say, okay, this word, like give us the full kind of grammatical and, and like poetic significance of, um, of kind of how this word is used by this author in this piece.

32:03So, okay. I'm not like, I'm not that good at language. Um, so the way that I did that class was I basically just sat and studied word by word the historical significance of each word over tens of pages preparing for these exams. And okay, I don't remember that much of that at this point. I mean, there were a few quotes that I think are pretty good from some of those books. And I put them on shirts. Have you heard that one? Yeah, no, that's a good one. What does that one mean? Let's ball out or whatever? From many one. I think it's talking about how we come together as a people or as states into one union.

32:44Oh, that's nice. Le Plerbis Union. But no, I... But so you did it word by word, but it still helped you. But I just think like the lesson from that is, you know, it kind of gave me this confidence that it's like, okay, that was like a crazy thing to do. All right, to have to like go learn what every word's significance, like poetic significance and grammatical, the structure and all that is. And after I took that class, I was basically like, I can work hard enough to do anything that I want. Right. Because like, I just like fucking learned all these words that don't matter, um, in order to like nail this thing.

33:25And like, and I won and, and, and kind of did that and, and got that to, to kind of, and kind of, you know, had some fun doing it. So. Right. It's like you, like you found a, a model kind of. Yeah, exactly. And it was hard. It was a, it was a tough model. Yeah. So, I mean, there's like, there's that. And there's like the math version of that. I mean, you're talking about Alexander Wang on here. It's like, I mean, I did a bunch of the same kind of math competitions that he did. I had this like super hardcore math instructor in high school. His name was Zooming Fung. And he - Chinese guy? Oh, yeah.

34:00And I think at some point he had worked with - Zooming Fung. Bring him up, baby. Zooming Fung. Now, he is - We want the Fung. you ever hear that song they would used to play that well this guy is just like a badass and he he basically was involved in training the um the u.s math olympiad team for for a long period of time and and he um he made a huge impact on on me kind of growing up and um and and he kind of taught me a little bit about like how i approach problems he's like look you actually um it's like he's like you kind of have this it's like look you're not that good at math I'm like no but um I'm kidding um he he kind of taught me that I I had this sort of like intuitive ability to have a sense of like what zone the right answer was in so he's like I look at your work and you do a bunch of stuff that like doesn't really make sense but then at the end you come to a conclusion and you realize that that conclusion doesn't make sense and then you kind of check yourself and go back and do it.

35:07You keep on doing it until you get the right answer is like, I don't understand how you like have this intuitive sense for like what the shape of the right answer is, but like, that's really good. As long as you like couple that with working really hard, you're going to be able to kind of succeed and get a lot and get a lot done. So that gives you a map of how to navigate yourself, like your intuition with your hard work. Yeah. So, so I don't know. So, okay. Like does the specific, like, you know, high dimensional geometry or whatever the thing is that we were working on together. Like, do I do any of that today?

35:39No, I don't remember any of that stuff. But like, but I think it's like, like you have some good teachers who teach you how to think and how to work hard. And like that stays with you forever. And I think that that's like some of the stuff that, um, I mean, I think it builds confidence that like teaches you how you approach problems. Then you just get better and better at some things and you build confidence. And so that's the value you're saying and seeing in college. Like those are some of the other values you might not see, like, oh, yeah, I might be not be able to be seen on paper. But the but the value of that.

36:12Yeah, that's a good point, man. It's like, yeah, I remember like some of my favorite people still to this day in my life have been some of my teachers that challenged me or that believed in me or that said a certain like, man, I admire the way you do this or this, you know, and and it really encourages you once kind of plants a lot of seeds to make you want to do those things so much more. Yeah. And they don't have to be teachers, although obviously, you know, that's - Or mentors. I think a lot of these days, a lot of people get their mentorship, probably I would guess from teachers, unless they play a sport, you know?

36:41Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, the main way that you learn those from colleagues, right? It's like people you work with. You know, and I remember, you know, growing up, I was like, I was really into computers and - Like when you get your first computer, you think? So my family had a computer probably when I was like eight or nine. And then I think I probably got one. And when you be in there on that thing all the time, just riding the keys. So my dad's a dentist and he's like, I just got a tooth yesterday. How's that? How's that? There you go. I just got a half of a, got to see Dr. Zuckerberg.

37:17Really? Yeah. He'll take care of you. Did your parents give you love or just Sonic care? That's just an old dentist joke. But glad you got that taken care of. Yeah, I feel a lot better about it. But what were we talking about? Oh, I was just talking about how my dad was the type of dentist who like was really into technology. So whenever like a new laser thing came out to like drill your teeth better, like he was on that first. Right. And that was kind of cool to be around. Right. And kind of see like he clearly he loved technology. And I think I sort of got introduced to a bunch of stuff through that.

37:55So like he had like in his dental office, there were like a bunch of different, um, you know, operate, operatory rooms, I guess. And, and they each had computers and I was like, all right, you know, like, Oh yeah. It feels like the future in there. Yeah. It's like, it's like, but it was still, you know, he'd still like go between them to talk to the different people. I was like, you need like a chat app so you can just like send messages to everyone across the, the dental office. So I like wrote that for him and it's like, all right, that's cool. um so you were codes you were driving you were putting coding into like dental work you were you're already thinking of how to connect i just like making stuff yeah so yeah yeah yeah i mean that's sort of been the theme for me is the intersection between like computing technology on the one hand and like people and connecting people um you know when i was in college i wasn't there for long but i mean i was technically a psychology major i mean i took a bunch of computer science and math classes too.

38:52But dude, if somebody even went to Harvard for four days, dude, I would hire him to be my therapist or whatever. Yeah, I wouldn't. Really? I don't know. I think I'd rather have someone who I definitely subscribe to the theory of like, you want people who did well at whatever they did, not just like who have some random credential. So yeah. So yeah, I guess, but where I'm from, if you heard Harvard, it was like somebody had gone to like Mars or It was very, you know. Yeah, no, I get it. So it kind of differs from place to place. Whenever you drop, did you have to tell your parents you were dropping out of college?

39:27Was that a crazy day? Did you DM them or would you do it? So, I mean, I'd already started Facebook and Harvard had this nice policy where you didn't have to make a hard decision to drop out. You could just postpone. So I just didn't go back for the next term. But later, my mom told me that she always knew I wasn't going to finish college. I was like, Mom, what the hell does that mean? But, no, but actually. But that's got to be the worst. Imagine this, okay? Say your son or child or daughter or mixed child or whatever. Imagine it's a big test at school, right? You have to hug your kid goodbye.

40:02You know your kid is not going to do good on that test, right? But you still have to stay in there in the kitchen and give him a little bit of chocolate milk and be like, you're going to do good out there today, Benny, or whatever his name is, right? But then the second he leaves, you're just like, oh, kid, I'm going to have A. It's like Benny's screwed. Yeah, Benny's screwed. No, I don't know. I don't know what we're talking about. I don't know what it's like. No, but my younger sister. Is our conversation going okay? I feel like it's cool with you. Yeah. No, this is, yeah. I mean, it's less random than I expect it to be, you know?

40:34It is? I'm just kidding. Yeah. I think it's just hard to talk sometimes to people. No, before I went to college, my, you know, my mom, I think, told me that she thought I was going to drop out. My younger sister bet me that she was going to finish college before me. Ooh, I like that attitude. And I was like, no, I'm going to get a degree. And they all came true. I dropped out, my younger sister finished college, and then I got an honorary degree. So, you know, bonus. Oh, they gave you that bonus? I know, yeah. Oh, dang, did you even get your GED at all either? No, I did finish high school. You did?

41:06GED's high school, right? I don't know. I think they make a GED premiere now. I don't know. I don't know. Anyone? No? No? GED's high school equivalent. All right. Thank you. I got a real, I got a high school diploma. You got a high school diploma. That's my education. Dude, that's 94 % of our country. So you're in good hands, brother. You're right there with some of the greats. So when you started, when you first started, let me think of one thing. Oh, where was your first date that you took Priscilla to? Do you remember? Yeah. For Priscilla, that was, we went to this place, Burdick's. It was.

41:42Burdick's? Burdick's, LA Burdick's. this chocolate place, hot chocolate. That was pretty good. And was it just like y 'all went and sat down? Is it like a restaurant or just a place to get? Yeah, it's like a little coffee place, little hot chocolate type coffee place. Yeah, no, it's nice. They make good chocolates. They make these little mice things. Ooh, yeah. Yeah, chocolate mice. So now every year on our anniversary, we get some mice. Oh, yeah. Good deal. Oh, yeah. Nothing like a couple of tech emperors enjoying a couple of mice. You feel me? I think that's very normal. That's very normal to me, dude.

42:25Sorry, that just made me laugh. I'm sorry, Mark. That just made me freaking laugh. It's just crazy to think. Well, chocolate mice. Yes, chocolate mice. Yeah, and we'll put that in the notes. Yeah, no, it's not. I feel like when you go full Roman Empire, it's like, give me the live mice.

42:48Give me the live mice. And then one mouse shows up and he has a bad leg. You're like, all of them fully live. Dude, if somebody sees a mouse with a bad leg, nobody even cares. That's the saddest thing about some mice. But actually, I used to sell hamsters. My first job was selling hamsters growing up. And a lot of that market, they brought in these Russian hamsters, right? And it took away a lot of the American market. And the Russian ones, they're called like the Roborovskys. Bring up a couple of Roborovskys, man. They were, they took away like the fluffy kind of American ham. And they. I mean, they're pretty cute.

43:28They are cute. But the ones that we were getting, a lot of them were from Russia. Put from Russia. Put Roborovsky hamsters from Russia. were the small white ones with kind of the red eyes. Yeah, they really, I think they put some visual effects on some of their eyes. There you go. These were really not helping people feel good. Yeah, no, that's like a vampire. It was a little bit much. It was a lot for some of the children. You know, so one of my daughters is really into hedgehogs. So we found, we took them to Japan, and there's this hedgehog cafe that you can just go in and they can just like play with the hedgehogs.

44:07I've never seen a hedgehog. Yeah, no, it's, they're pretty cute. It kind of looks like that, but less red eyes. But, yeah, no, cute. Shorty Bay. Yeah. She's out there. Those are beautiful. Now those, the idea of cafes where you can hang out with animals. Priscilla was telling me that she took the kids to this cat cafe. And like, it's like my daughter was like hanging out with the cat. and was like, couldn't find a cat that she liked. And then like finally found a cat that she was into. And then like, just as she was sitting down, like hanging out with the cat, someone came in and was like, oh, this cat has been adopted.

44:44And took, came and dicked. Oh, just like that issue that's going on with that guy that deported El Salvador right now. It sounds like very, I don't know if it's similar to that, but it sounds like there's like a lot. That seems completely different. Yeah, you're right. Absolutely a completely different thing. You're right. Yeah, you're right. It's not the same fairy tale. I don't know how either one of those fairy tale ends, but that's so sad. Well, the cat at least got a home. Yeah, the cat got a home. And this, I think that guy will get home. I don't know a lot about it. It's just like spawning me on that.

45:11That could be something like that. Do you, you have how many daughters? You have a - Three daughters. Three daughters. Yeah. You had three sisters. I did, yeah. So you're - I'm kind of surrounded by girls. God. Yeah. And did you, what's it like bedtime with your daughters at night? Like, what is that like at the Zuckerberg's home? Yeah, I mean, it's just, it's like, so, because I'm so busy during the day, I try to make it to that, like the time that I know I'm going to hang out with the kids at night, I try to spend like half an hour with each of them at night. And they're different ages, so we got like a nine, a seven-year-old, a two-year-old.

45:43Oh, wow. That's fun, huh? Yeah, so bedtime. I don't know. I mean, the kids are all crazy in different ways. And we just kind of like try to connect with them on whatever they want. Like, what do they like to... Well, the two-year-old is just like starting to learn how to speak. And she has like... I thought you were going to say code, which would have been crazy. Yeah, no, well, she's like, yeah, now the two-year-old has very strong opinions and I think it's going to be very interesting. Really? Yeah. Yeah. But it's like, let me think about what. I mean, she's... I don't know. I need to think about something funny that she's doing.

46:25But while I'm thinking about that, the uh the seven-year-old is just like purely generative constantly just creating things um you know she's the one who's like we'll do like 3d printing she'll create like 3d worlds in this like horizon metaverse system that we're building um she codes she writes books she um She basically like makes music. She is seven years old. She's seven. Yeah. Seeing her has really like, I think helped me understand myself in a way because it's like, it's kind of like, okay, like why do I just keep like building stuff? Like, why do I care so much about creating stuff? And it's like, I don't know.

47:10I think some people just like have a thing in them where it's like, they have to create stuff. Like the stuff just like comes out of them. They're constantly generating things and like, and, and kind of producing stuff. And you notice that in her. She's like that. Yeah. Yeah. I think, yeah. I mean, I think before, before kind of she started growing up and doing that, Priscilla was just like, why don't you just like relax? Right. It's like, you've done, you've built enough things, right? It's like, your company is good. Like you can just chill. Then, and now, now I think after seeing this one, she's just like, okay, no, I get it.

47:44Yeah. You got, you got, you have the same thing. You have what she has, right? It's like, you're just constantly creating stuff. He's like, dude, yeah, you're Thomas Madison. There you go. Is that pretty good? I like that. Yeah, no, it's, yeah. Thank you, dude. Every now and then. And then, you know, our oldest daughter is just like, is - And the oldest one is nine, you said? Yeah, she's nine. Okay, so that's getting up there a little bit in kids' age. She is. So she's getting into, like, the zone where she's, like, she competes. She's doing, like, history B and, like, competing in math and really wants to, like, understand the world.

48:15So my activities with her is like, we'll usually like go through the news and I'll find, she'll find like one thing, we'll pick out a story and then we'll just like talk about it. And it's really interesting because like it hadn't occurred to me before how much in order to understand like technology, you need to really understand like government and civics and politics and law and like all of these different things. So trying to explain to like a child who hasn't thought much about these things is it's both very fascinating for me. But it's just been like a cool bonding experience of like and you start off and it's like a really basic understanding.

49:02But then after you've done it for like a year or two, like, OK, she has like a very good understanding of like the tech industry and the world and all the stuff. And it's it's it's pretty interesting to talk through. Well, I think it's inspiring just to even parents to hear like, what can you talk to your kid about? You know what I'm saying? Like if your kid's 13 and you're still reading embarrassing bears or whatever, some of that's on you. Like you got to evolve some of the curriculum for your child, you know? Um, because yeah, a lot of parents think you probably can't kind of build these worlds in a child's head.

49:33But if you start with the basic blocks, then you kind of can, you know, and help them get bigger ideas about things. I think that's cool. I think there's nothing more important than how a parent communicates with their child, you know, and what they communicate to them. Because so often we just expect like teachers and different curriculum out in the world or just the world to do that for our children. But, man, I think the biggest faucet for a child is the parent, you know. That's pretty cool. And the little one is just a little. She's two. We got a bonus. Yeah. So it's. No, she's good. But I mean, obviously very, she's just obsessed with her older sisters.

50:12Like, so one day she just decided like, I am not a baby. And we're like, oh, you're the family baby. I'm a big girl. It's like, that's like a core part of her identity is she's a big girl. She's like, email me now. Yeah, no, it's like, yeah, email me now. Email me at suckerbabyatmeta. Meanwhile, she can't even like fully pronounce it. She goes, I'm a bit girl. It's like, okay. It's like, well, maybe you learn how to pronounce it first. and then I'll believe you. But, but, no, she's like, I weigh six terabytes. Yeah. Like calm down, you know? Yeah. No, she's. That's so funny being like a, like a.

50:53And the stuff that we do, it's like, I mean, it's. Grid baby. You're trying to like teach them like basic stuff. So it's like, we have this book. It's like, how do I feel? Right. And it's just like pictures of other kids and like their facial expressions. and it's like the only emotion that she identifies with is happy and so she'll be having like a terrible meltdown and like sobbing and i'm like oreo how how you feel she goes happy and it's like no you don't have to you don't have to say happy all the time it's like it's normal like in life it's like we have all these different emotions like you like it's important to understand when you're sad or angry or frustrated or something.

51:35But that's hilarious. So we're still working on that. We're still in the remedial emotional emotions phase. She'll be like crying. But she knows that's the one. She's like, hey. She knows. Yeah, no, it's like. Oreo is her name? Aurelia. But we call her Oreo, which I'm sure we're going to regret when she's older. Well. It's cute. I think Oreo is a cute one. She'll probably marry a basketball player, I'm guessing. Who knows, Mark? who knows what'll happen it could go you know oreo zuckerberg dude that's when you take um that's when you like that's when you get into the food industry yeah oreo zuckerberg i don't know she's she she i think could be the sugar empress well see menlo park kids love like you know kids love like they go through a phase where they love cleaning and they love like playing cooking right it's like oh just give me some like like a pan or like i don't know if that's yeah she's just like give me a desk like i want like i want to work like dad does like give me a desk and like like i don't want to do this like cooking shit like yeah it's like yeah we want to own a popeyes and she's like but i like that though she has like a no you know no she's she's a bit girl yeah i love that idea that some child somewhere this is going to make my day so much better just knowing that a child is a child behind a desk just like demanding it's like like yeah yeah there's not enough bandwidth in this crib yeah not enough bandwidth to the crib yeah to pull off what i need to pull off um the kids you know i don't is it fun being a dad do you feel like you enjoy it?

53:17Does it feel kind of, is it tough to connect with your children? Does that ever feel like a thing as a dad with girl daughters with, or with, yeah. I don't know. I think it's like, there's probably some things that they connect better with, with mother about, but like, I feel like there's also like, I don't know, there's all these weird dynamics. I think that there's some things that they like probably just connect with me better about where it's, you know, it's just a different dynamic with, with, um, father. Right. So. And what do they call you? Do they call you dad, father, mother? Dad, although sometimes they're being disobedient, Mark.

53:52It's like, no. Dad is a title, an honorific title that I've earned. Mark. They're like, what is going on? It's like Oreo that is bullshit. Get back in your crib. I'll see you in court. These diapers are too tight. Tell my lawyer. That's hilarious. Um, that's crazy. I think like it's just good for them to have good role models. Right. You know, part of the way that I, I feel like when kids grow up, they either end up wanting to like marry people who are the opposite of their parents if it was a bad experience or people who they like think of as sort of like, oh, this was a good role model. Right.

54:38And so I feel like as long as they look up to us, that's like, that's kind of the, that's, that's, you want to like set a good example. All right. So, but I don't know. I kind of, for me, we talked about this a little bit with, with the fighting stuff early on. But for me, it's always just been important that it's like, I don't just want to like be a person who like sits and works all the time. I think like, you know, it's, we're not like meant to just sit at a desk all day long and one day Oreo will learn that. Um, but, um, and I think like a lot of life is like, you move around, you like, you know, it's like, we're like meant to be active and do stuff.

55:20And I think that that's a big part of it. I try to like, it's important to me that, that the kids get that too. And the kids are very active. Um, do your kids have a lot of, um, like screen time, like how much screen time do you allow your kids? Yeah. Um, it's different for the different ones. We don't just like let them do whatever, but I actually like want them to be fluent with this stuff. And that kind of like we talked about earlier, um, you know, I want them to learn how to code, how to use technology. Um, I think it's important because a lot of socialization, you know, obviously like happens online at this point, like people need to get used to the norms and stuff around that.

56:01So, I mean, they're not on, they're still too young to be using like social media, but, uh, but they have messenger kids. You know, we, we, um, make it so that they can video chat and chat with their friends. And, you know, we'll, we'll obviously monitor to make sure that they're, um, that they're just connecting with the people who, who we think that they should. But like, I think it's actually good. I think people need to kind of grow up. Um, I don't need to is strong, but I, I think is, um, I think it's good. if you have an engaged parent and as a child, you kind of grow up learning how to use a bunch of this stuff.

56:39So I think that that's all good. I want the kids, to the extent that they're interested in it, to learn how to code, learn how to create stuff, whether it's in like Horizon or VR tools or they play Roblox and Minecraft and stuff like that. I think that's good and then you know there's a lot of educational study type tools that um you know when um when our daughter's studying for her competitions or whatever she can she can kind of make a lot of progress on that so i think that that stuff is good but we're not just like letting them um just kind of sit and watch stuff all day long so you think unless you're on a plane then you do whatever you need to do to get through that flight yeah thank you dude somebody else needs to say that yeah no it's um where's the i want to when do we come out with that pacifier that really shuts these kids down for a couple hours i'm not saying anything crazy nothing illegal but we need we need a high voltage pacifier back in society mark oh man um give us something brother yeah these kids are screaming they they sometimes do oh yeah the craziest thing happened to me one time I'm on a plane.

57:52I'm dreaming, right? And I'm like, man, I'm really having some nice dreams because I never have good sleep or anything. So every now and then I come to the surface of my dreams and I'm like, wow, I'm still dreaming. And I go back underwater. Um, but I heard a ukulele playing, right? Ukulele. And at some point I wake up and there is a effing child or child, as some people call them, playing a ukulele with his parents on this plane. I walked up and I put my hand on it in front of the parents. I think I was still groggy from being asleep. And I was like, we can't do this today. It's like the ukuleles.

58:29It's a lot. It's time out for ukulele. We're shutting down this little hand Hawaii you got going on right here. I mean, it probably took a lot of restraint to not just pick up the ukulele and smash it. It really did. Yeah. I mean, it's... It really did. So I just said, we're not doing this today. In a tone that was... That seems stern for a child. It was. Especially for a child who you... Is not your child. That's true. Who you don't know. Very fair. That's the type of thing that you could cause a scene. Very fair. I got lucky. The parents were... They agreed. They were probably pissed about the ukulele, too.

59:04But they were afraid to tell their kids something. Yeah. So you did them a favor. Yeah. It's like, hey, Oreo sometimes, business is closed. Yeah, it's like working hours are over for today. Okay. Well, you'll be back in the office tomorrow. Like sometimes you just have to, you know, but so I agree. Please do whatever you can to stop these kids from being on planes or screaming on planes because we are looking. That's one thing we are all looking to you for. Well, maybe one day we'll deliver that. Nobody needs help spending their money. Sometimes it feels like the whole world is just trying to spend your money.

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1:02:52You'll never need to upgrade. ShipStation grows with your business no matter how big it gets. Calm the chaos of order fulfillment with the shipping software that delivers. Switch to ShipStation today. Go to ShipStation.com and use code Theo to sign up for your free trial. That's S-H-I-P-S-T-A-T-I-O-N.com and use code Theo. That's shipstation.com, code Theo. I do think a future version of the glasses will get there. I think you had a chance to play around with this a bit. Yeah, I did. Are those the ones you have on right now or no? No, this is sort of, I mean, these are the ones that are available today.

1:03:34These are like REI glasses. So, I mean, it's, you know, they're glasses. They can, you know, the main thing is they can, um, you can take photos or videos with them. Um, I love just using them for listening to music, um, and taking phone calls on them because your ears are open, right? So it doesn't like, it doesn't obscure your ability to hear anything else. Um, the audio quality is really good, right? Cause it has a microphone, like it's a contact mic. Um, that's like basically in the nose pad. So when I'm like, you can be on a plane and take a phone call and like the other person on the other side can't even hear that you're on a plane.

1:04:09Like it's just like the, you can be in a wind tunnel on it, just like whatever it's the sound quality is, is amazing. But then the main thing is, um, they're AI glasses. So you can, glasses, I think are like the perfect form factor for a device where if you want to have an AI that you let see what you see, hear what you hear, it can talk to you you can talk to it throughout the day um and glasses is that's like yeah yeah if you want to have something that has the same context of the world that you do that's it's going to be glasses and there's like there's like a billion or two billion people in the world who wear glasses already so to me the you know the chance that we look back like a decade from now and like all those glasses aren't ai glasses by that period it's kind of like like obviously all the flip phones were going to become smartphones, right?

1:05:03I mean, that was clearly a thing that was going to happen. I think that's going to happen with glasses too. But the other piece of this is that you're going to get the ability to kind of put holograms in the world, right? So our experience with technology today is, I don't know, it's kind of funny in a way how it's divided where it's like you, you know, we have the physical world all around us. And then if you want to interact with something digital, you need to like put a screen up, right? So maybe it's like this, you know, you have your small glowing rectangle, your phone with you, you know, you have like, you know, your screen if you want to like project something.

1:05:39Yeah, your computer. But I think in the not too distant future, this should be blended together, right? You'll have like the physical world, but all this digital stuff should just basically be holograms. You shouldn't need like a physical screen. Like there's no reason why in the future, you know, you want to have a screen there. you'll just have glasses and that screen will be a hologram right and that's what you see it that's what you put me in yeah somebody put me in it yeah yeah and that's that's final season of stranger things back there i got put in whatever they put on me it was like lens crafters makes lens crafters look pretty you know lame well it's um it's different it's it was well it was crazy i'll say it was like can i say what happened yeah yeah yeah it was so they put it you put the glasses on and they're there it's like an advancement of the pair that you have on now right so it's like years down the line how many years down the line you realistically think that those could um i'm hoping that we'll have a version of that as a product in a few years but it's going four years or eight years hopefully closer to four um or even less but um but it's i think that there will still be simpler glasses like this and then there will be more complex glasses those will be more expensive there's right what do you want kind of yeah but so some people will want like more tech they'll want the holograms some people just want a simple experience where it's like all right i got the ai i got the ability to listen to music and phone calls and and do all that um and then obviously the less tech that you put into them the thinner they can be which i mean some people like bulky glasses some people want thin glasses and yeah it was fascinating yeah yeah they had a thing on my wrist right uh-huh uh neural interface A neural interface?

1:07:27Yeah. I mean, you can basically control the glasses with your mind through signals that you're sending from your brain to your hand. Yes. It was fascinating. It was like I could touch different nodules that I needed to and stuff or different nodes, whatever it's called. I could look at certain things and that would highlight what it was. And it was just a screen in midair. And I could walk around the side of the room and then come back and the screen would still be there. But it wasn't really there in real life. it was just there with the glasses on yeah it's a hologram yes and it was it was crazy man i don't know and then i was like well my first thought was like well how do you just get people to adapt to this because people aren't just gonna go from where we are right now to adapt and then i realized okay there's different stair steps there's like almost like when you got the first smartphone like you're saying and then in advance or the first mobile phone and then you have the first metaglasses and then it advances and stuff like that.

1:08:23So it was fascinating. There was a part where me and another man who I just met him, and we played ping pong. And I believe it was an Asian guy. And I don't know if they did that on purpose or not. And I don't know if ping pong is Asian. But people think it is. And I started playing with this man back there. Did you win? Huh? Did you win? Dude, who knows? We're in the future. I don't know if they keep score. I think everybody gets a medal. No, you definitely keep score. Oh, you do? Yeah, yeah. And in our future, not everyone gets a medal. Yeah, I like that. are you not entertained that's more Oreo fire up the grill loser burns but no we could play a game and it was not real it was a ping pong table in front of us that was not real like 3D ping pong so it wasn't there someone could ride their bike like your dumb brother could ride his freaking bike like dang it Yeah.

1:09:20Ricky, bro, you freaking rode right through our net. So, I mean, I think it's an interesting thought experiment. How many of the things that we physically have aren't going to need to be there in the future. Right. So pretty much every screen doesn't need to be there. Right. It'll just be a hologram. Um, any media, any book that you're playing, any board game, any cards, those are. Yeah. That'd be nice. Cause one thing I hate is at the airport, all these TVs are on our air. It's like, everything is so loud now. It's like, can you just make it for you? Just turn it down. Why do we all have to experience this painful noise sometimes?

1:09:56Yeah, it's like you're driving through a city and there's billboards and nothing is personalized. It's like how TV used to be, right? I mean, in the future, now like all the stuff that you use on your phone, it's like you get exactly what you're interested in and it's just a much higher quality experience. But there's all this physical stuff that just stuck, right? And it's static. And, um, yeah, I mean, everything I think is going to be able to, um, sorry, not, not, not everything, but, but it's, I think it's an interesting thought experiment how much of the stuff that we physically have today that just doesn't actually need to exist in the future.

1:10:30Um, so. Do you think, um, is social media bad? I mean, I don't think so. Yeah, maybe that's not the right term. No. Um, like at a certain point does, yeah, like how much, you know, there's been like studies on where it's like doom scrolling and stuff like that can lead to depression, that sort of thing. Like, do you, what do you think about that? Like? Yeah. So, so look, I mean, we obviously studied this stuff pretty carefully. Um, you guys do. Yeah. I mean, we study it. We work with academics to study it. You know, as you can imagine, there's a lot of like media coverage of this stuff that's like very sensationalist that tries to like have a skewed point of view.

1:11:16So my understanding of the current state of the research is that there isn't kind of a conclusive finding that this is negative for people's well-being. So I think that that's – and in general, some of the stuff that ends up being positive for people is building relationships. So there's sort of the media part of social media and there's the social part of social media. I think the interacting with people, to the extent that that's helping you build good relationships, I mean, friendships and good relationships is one of the things that correlates the most strongly with positive well-being and like feeling good about your life and all that.

1:11:55The media stuff, I mean, I think that's more entertaining. You know, I think you can, you know, people want things that are fun, right? Yeah, people want to be entertained for sure. necessarily like correlate with good well-being or bad well-being but i guess like the way that i think about this stuff is that it's um our modern online environment is um it it's just an environment in which we live in a way that has pros and cons like whether you live in a city or a rural place right it's like okay like some people may prefer living in a city there's like things that are good about a city. There are things that are bad about a city.

1:12:35Okay. Like the fact that we went from being primarily offline as a society to now like this kind of hybrid kind of physical and digital reality, there's some things that are better about that. Some things that are, that are maybe less good. Um, it's not that every single thing improves at each step along the way, but I think overall, um, it's, it's, um, kind of the overall effect is significant an improvement and I just don't see a way that people would want to like go back to not having services where they can get the content that they're interested in and where stuff is personalized to them and where they can communicate with the people who they want and don't need to like be constrained to just the people who are physically around them it's just I mean like we're just you know we're not going back to that and if you look throughout history it's like when people like first built cities, you know, there were all these, um, there's a lot of kind of nostalgia for the simpler life and things like that.

1:13:31It's like, okay, yeah. And, and yeah, sure. Maybe, maybe cities aren't better in every single way. And some people might prefer to kind of only go sometimes or whatever, but, but I, I just think it's like, we're, we're building more and more capabilities as society. And I think that that's sort of, I just think about the stuff more as like an environment in which we live. So then it's more like if, yeah, like sometimes I think like, because I've been thinking a lot about this. I think a lot of people have. It's like, well, we're moving into such a, like technology is advancing so much faster, right?

1:14:00It's accelerating the advancement speed. And then we're just humans and we're in this space now where there's like one generation to the next, where one generation was completely grown up online and one hasn't really. So I wonder, and I think the older generation probably sees it as like, man, this is so negative. Everybody's stuck. But I wonder if the younger generation, do they even know any different, right? You know, like just I start to wonder what is the value of being human? Like, like what is the does that start to dissipate as we become more technologically advanced or does that alter?

1:14:35Like, do you think about that sometimes? Yeah, I mean, look, I think it's going to give people the freedom to focus more on the things that they want. I think if you look at the arc of history, go back like, I mean, before, you know, in ancient times, life was like pretty brutal, right? Right. It's like, okay. So then, then you go to like, maybe right before the industrial revolution where they had team toilet paper at one time, they had like group toilet paper and it was like, yeah, that's, I mean, that's not good. That's not good. Um, yeah. And I don't think, I mean, I don't, you don't want to, yeah, no, it's, I think anyone who has nostalgia for the past really is not taking into account the disease and the lack of hygiene that existed in the past.

1:15:15So I think that there's so anyway, but pre-industrial revolution, I think some huge percent of the population was farmers because basically everyone needed to be focused on growing things in order to have enough food. then we basically got to the point where okay now we can start to produce food much more efficiently so that actually frees up a lot of people to not have to be farmers now maybe like two percent of people can be farmers and 98 percent of people can do other stuff so now we people start doing more kind of other creative stuff and inventing new things and um and at each step along the way kind of, like being a farmer is a really hard job, right?

1:16:02It's like you're working like a lot of hours. And now as kind of people got more options, they took other jobs. But then we've also seen this mix where the percent of people's time that has gone towards leisure and entertainment has just steadily increased over time. And I just think that that's going to continue to be the case with technology. We'll have more stuff that will make it so that the basic needs are taken care of, which will free people up to do some combination of more creative jobs and not have to work as hard if they don't want to. But I think some people are going to like working all the time, like me, and you'll be able to do that too and get more done than you could have ever possibly done in the past.

1:16:50But that'll be sort of a choice. And well, since you're kind of like a leader in innovation and technology in our world, you know, do you how do you know that what your convictions are? How do you gauge if what your convictions are are the best for everybody? Kind of like, how do you kind of figure that out? You know, it seems like such a challenge. Yeah. Well, does that make sense? The question or no? Yeah. No, I think I get what you're asking. I mean, look, at the end of the day, there are still a lot of options of things that people can do. Just because I build something doesn't mean that people are going to use it.

1:17:27Actually, a lot of the things that I build, some of them work, some of them don't. And I think part of the reason why the company has been successful is because maybe we have a slightly higher hit rate of things working than others. But it's kind of like, I don't know, in baseball, it's like most people don't get on base most of the time, right? So it's like running one of these companies, more of the stuff doesn't work than does. And if we do something that doesn't work, then in general, people aren't going to use it. And then the future doesn't go in that direction. I see. So you're saying it's up to the user more.

1:18:07Yeah, I mean, look, I kind of think one way to look at the world is that there's a version of history that says that individual people are very powerful and have a lot of kind of autonomy and ability to kind of go in the direction that they think is right. And then there's like all these other narratives where people try to kind of diminish people's autonomy and authority. And I'm just like, I've always been a person who really kind of believes that people understand people are smarter than people think. um yes and and i think in general um are able to make good decisions for their lives and when they do things that like the media or whatever thinks don't make sense it's generally because the media doesn't understand their life not because the people are stupid um like if people are saying something that seems wrong it's not usually misinformation it's usually that you don't understand what's going on in that person's life and i i just think that there's like a certain kind of paternalism in some of the mainstream narratives and some of the media narratives.

1:19:16Like a know-it-all-ism almost? There has been for sure for years. I think it's starting to change more. Yeah, I think it's a little more receptive as maybe some of those cultural or media elite people are having a harder time predicting what's going to happen in the world. Maybe there's a little more humility of like, okay, maybe we don't understand all of this. But to me, the best predicting thing has always been like, all right, if you build something, do people actually think it's good? Because like at some level, you know, it's like, I just believe that people are actually very smart and understand their lives very well.

1:19:49And if you're building something that is useful for them, then they will use it. And if you're using something, if you're building something that is not useful for them, then they have other options. They will, they will do something else. and so I don't know it's always served me well to generally have faith in people and believe that people are smart and can make good decisions for themselves and whenever we try to like adopt some sort of like attitude of oh we must know better than them it's like we're like we're the people building technology that's when you lose right and if you do and if you have that attitude for long enough, then you just like become a shitty company and you lose and you lose and you lose and then you're irrelevant.

1:20:31So, um, so I, I tend to just think that at the end of the day, yeah, I mean, I think people are smarter than, than a lot of people think. And I think ultimately drive the direction that society goes in. You, um, so like people, a lot of times, like there's guys who are like kind of, you know, Elon Musk is probably like a socially awkward guy. And I would say that. I mean, I think it's, yeah. We all are. Right. We all are, right? I think we all are. And it's interesting that there's like probably people have, I mean, have you ever felt socially awkward over your years? No, I'm, I'm, I'm really smooth.

1:21:08No, no, no, obviously. Yes. Yeah. I'm like the most awkward person. People have been calling me a robot online for 20 years. It does wonders for my confidence. No, your confidence cannot be impaled. I don't think that's one thing you have. that's probably a sheer North star inside of you. It's gotta be, you might've become bulletproof. I think there's times where, yeah, you seem like a guy who probably like, like watched a video of how to be a guy on YouTube or something, you know? But I think we all, we all go through, like we're all like awkward in different ways. You know, you put you in certain environments and you're not at all.

1:21:42But I think it's interesting that there's - I haven't found those environments yet, but maybe, you know, it's - Dude, even being here today, bro, is nice of you. It's nice of you to be here today. No, I think the podcasts are awesome because you're just like, you get to explore something. Right, for sure. But here's my question. Sorry, Mark, I didn't mean to interrupt you. No, go for it. But I'm not going to get another chance to. So my question is, is it interesting that they have kind of people who have would probably self-describe as socially awkward at times kind of creating technology that socially connects people?

1:22:15That's a thing that you ever kind of find that kind of fascinating? Because I've always had a belief that sometimes sociocard people are almost a mix between human and the future or something. Does that make any sense to you? Yeah, you know, it's an interesting question. I just think that there are a bunch of factors here that you need to peel apart. I think someone can be socially perceptive and understand kind of what is going on in social dynamics and have a lot of empathy and care about other people while still being quite awkward in how they communicate. And so I don't think you can build a great kind of social...

1:23:08Yeah, I'm trying to build too broad of a bridge. No, well, I think it's a fair point, right? I mean, it's like, all right, a lot of social media is like people creating great content and kind of communicating really well. And those are not my biggest strengths, right? It's like, I don't think I'm the best communicator by a long shot. I mean, I think I kind of got to where I am because I think I kind of understand what people like and I have the ability to build it. but I don't think my strength is like, oh, I can really like communicate about why what I'm building is awesome. I generally like to make it so that my work speaks for itself.

1:23:48And I try to explain it so I can kind of explain how I'm thinking about it. But I don't think people primarily like using our stuff because, you know, they saw me talk about it and they're like, oh, yeah, this seems super exciting now. But I think the ability to kind of communicate in a way that is not awkward is a different skill than the ability to kind of understand and have empathy for kind of people and social interactions. And it's, you know, there's an interesting thing where I actually think sometimes a lot of the people who can communicate in the smoothest way sometimes have a lot less empathy and understanding of social dynamics than the kind of nerdy guy who may not be able to express himself quite as well, but sort of understands a little bit better what's going on.

1:24:42And I don't know, the world's complicated and there's like multiple dimensions to all this stuff and no one's good at all of them. So you just, you know, try to do the things that you're like, hone the things that you're good at and try to put it to service to, you know, do as good of work as you can. Yeah. I think we're in this unique place where I believe it's like one or two generations think that one something isn't social and then the younger generation thinks that it is social yeah and so I feel like in some senses we're at this crossroads kind of of like how we communicate as humans a little bit yeah um and this advancement and sometimes those steps are uh are kind of tricky to take um this is my last question because I know you have to go um so I feel like Elon Musk has like a like he wants to get on Mars and he wants to like impregnate different planets or whatever, you know, or whatever he's doing, dude.

1:25:31He's just blasting his seat out of the different rockets or whatever, you know, he's just out there, you know, he's like the Johnny Apple solar system, you know, but God bless, but no, God bless a hundred percent, dude. And yeah, a hundred percent. Um, and I'm just joking. He, uh, I think he probably would know that, but, um, I just think it's interesting. Like you get his, you get what his ideas are. He wants to like, we want to be on Mars and we want to send the rockets and we want to make everything solar powered and stuff. And you're such an innovator and a leader. Like, what is, what do you feel like is your kind of, it's not a goal, but kind of where do you, what do you, what draw, like, what is the thing where you see us, you know, like where you're at a point where like, man, this is what I'm really proud of.

1:26:13And this is where I see us going because, you know, we're all on this bus together going somewhere and we don't exactly know where we're going because it's the future, but you're kind of, you're kind of one when the guy's driving the bus, you know, or at least riding shotgun. So it's like, where are we going? I mean, I think different people just care about different parts of the future, right? So the space thing, I think it's cool. I'm glad that people are working on it. It's never really been my main thing. For me, it's all, it's kind of been about the intersection of how do you build technology that helps people connect with each other and understand the world better.

1:26:55and, um, and just taking different formats over time. Right. So, you know, when we got started, people, you know, are mostly like, you know, writing text. Then, you know, then we got smartphones and, um, we got cameras with the smartphones. We started taking a lot of photos and sharing that. And now, now most of what we do is video, right? The mobile networks are good enough that you can like share great video. It used to be great. Yeah. Like 10 years ago, you try watching a video, it's like buffering, buffering. It's like, okay, this is, this is terrible, but now it's good. People always want to both kind of express their ideas and experience other people's ideas in whatever the richest format is that they can.

1:27:38So if that was going to be text, then that was the best that they had. Great. Photos, visual, great. A picture's worth a thousand words. Video, better than photo for most things. But I don't think that's the end of the line right i just think um we're gonna be here whether it's five years or ten years and i think the ability to like fully capture moments um to really be able to experience them i think that's sort of the hologram thing that we're talking about um i think that that's just going to be like the next level of um of people being able to express like ideas like the next palette in their life.

1:28:15Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the next blank canvas. So I think that's one thing. And then there's the whole AI thing, which we haven't spent as much time on. I know we need to get into, sorry. But we should, we should. Which that is really going to give people a lot of new tools to kind of both just get smarter at everything they do. And if you look at the world like I do through this lens of how do we express ourselves and how do we kind of take in an understanding of what's going on, AI is just going to be super powerful for both of those. You can already see some of the basic stuff with like people creating images or editing images.

1:28:55Oh, it's unbelievable. I mean, it's crazy how fast it's happening too. That's what I'm amazed at is just how fast it's happening. Yeah, yeah. But do you think, like, do you envision this like, are you just like, like what do you envision that will be on these like surf? Do you have like a, like kind of like a utopian idea or do like, I just wonder how do you see things? Cause you're the only, like you're probably one of the smartest people to ever use thought. I don't know. I don't know. Well, that we, you know, or one of the most unique people to ever use thought that we have in our time. So it's like, how do you, what is it, what is it like out there?

1:29:32I mean, I think that we're going to get general intelligence. We're going to have systems that are smarter than any individual. and I think it's mostly going to be very empowering for people. First of all, look, I mean, there are already systems that are smarter than any one individual today, right? If you take like a company, right? It's like, okay, you got like a thousand people or 10 ,000 people who are all kind of like working towards, you know, ostensibly working towards a goal together. Like I, you know, if the intelligence of a 10 ,000 person company is not greater than the intelligence of a single person, then like, what are we doing here?

1:30:06Right? So there are already these systems in the world that have this sort of super intelligence that is far exceeds what any one person can do. And I just think like, instead of having relatively few people be able to kind of harness the power of like, you have the ability of, you know, you have a 10 ,000 person organization that can, um, that can help you build the things that you think are good. I just think in the future, almost everyone is going to have that. And that's cool. What does that mean? It means that more ideas are going to get tried out. So we might be leveling up in an overall idea of creativity in the universe with AI.

1:30:43Yeah, and I think it's going to be every field, right? So science will get more advanced, will get more productive. But I think a big part of the internet is stuff just gets more fun and funnier and the memes get weirder and more specific. And that is advancement too. It's almost going to be universal basic technology kind of in a way. It's just the ability to kind of express these like very complicated ideas in like a very simple piece of media. I think we're going to get better and better at that. And that advances our kind of understanding of ourselves as a society. So, yeah, I don't know. I think we'll get superintelligence, and I would guess that it will be a continuation of this trend that humanity has been on for 100 plus years of basically getting more time to do creative things, less time having to do drudgery, not having to spend as much time working if you don't want.

1:31:39But if you want to dedicate your life towards that, you're going to have more powerful tools than you could ever have possibly imagined. so it's not as much a conviction as much as it is a space of choice is how you see that like just kind of that sort of thing what do you mean it's not like you're like like convicted to this sort of like future as we advance like it's just a space of choice if you still want to be able to do these things you can do those and if you want to be able to do these things you can do those yeah there you are on the bus right there there you go i mean that's a little weird of a photo but you know i think that is good i do not think that is good um i don't like that at all and we thank you for telling us that though horrible ai yeah i think that was open ai dude so sorry about that um do you think you do you think you will live forever mark is that a thought coming oh man um that is an interesting question i i think you have two minutes to answer the yeah no i i don't know live forever gosh i i think at some point we will like a lot of well let me come at it this way our um outside of meta um my the philanthropy that i do with with priscilla at the chan zuckerberg initiative is primarily focused on curing diseases and the way we're doing that is not by focusing on any single disease it's by focused on kind of basic technology at the intersection of ai and biology to accelerate the pace of science and we originally thought that kind of a hundred years from when we started was sort of around the time frame to be able to cure and prevent and like deal with all diseases.

1:33:17I know there's a chance that that happens sooner than, you know, because of, because of all the work with, with AI. I guess I'm more optimistic about that now. Whether that means that like we are going to live forever or we just have healthier lives for the period that we're supposed to be living. And then at some point, like your human body is done. I don't think we understand that yet enough. But a lot of curing diseases is not just about living forever. It's about having better lives. And it's like while you're alive, like you don't want to have to deal with shit, right? It's like where you're just like, you feel terrible because you're sick or like you're injured or there's, you know, so - Do you think it's possible?

1:34:01Like you, because you have an understanding of like science and being human, that is way supersedes a lot of people's. Do you think it's possible that we could figure that out? Curing all diseases? To be able to like live, to keep life. Like, do you think it's possible that we could figure out how to do it? I think it's possible. I don't know. It's honestly, it's not an area that I've studied that much. She didn't know because we don't know. We don't know what's going on, Mark. And we just want you to tell us. Yeah, I mean, no, I don't know. I don't know. So let's check back in in 10 years on that.

1:34:33I think as the AI stuff makes more progress, I think we'll kind of get a sense of the trajectory for that. But I think it's just going to unlock a lot of creativity and productivity and fun. And I think people, the technology industry misses fun a lot. I think that that's one observation that I've had building stuff out here is people are very focused on like, all right, we're going to make a better word processor. We're going to like process information better. Cool. But I don't know. A lot of what people care about is just like, all right, I want to like be entertained. I want like, I want my life to be fun.

1:35:11Right. I want, I want something that's funny that I can then go show to my friends and then we can talk about that and like, and then just hang out and have a good time, like showing each other funny things and like talking about what the world is. And I think AI is going to make this stuff all great. So, um, I don't know. I mean, I do think this is a big focus for us. And we're building this meta AI. We call it personal AI. I mean, our goal on this is not just to build something that's like, I mean, yeah, it's going to be super smart, right? It's like, yeah, we're trying to solve full general intelligence and super intelligence and all that.

1:35:49But I think in order to build the product that people are going to want to use, you're going to want to build something that's fun to use. That means like, you're not just going to want to like type to it. You want to like have a conversation. Right. And it's not just about having it be like only able to answer hard questions. It should like get to know you and like what you think is funny and like what you ate. Right. So that way, you know, like or, you know, what your hobbies are. So that way it can kind of relate to you. I think people don't know that AI can do that. I think we're missing quickly, I think, in educating people how to, what AI is and how to use it.

1:36:24I think I notice even in my own life, and I spend a lot of time online involved in stuff, but I think people are not understanding what's going on. So I don't know how we get people educated quickly so that they can. I think whoever can also serve people the best way to educate themselves is going to be able to best exert or be able to best coagulate people to their AI model or whatever. I've never heard coagulate used that way. Or something like that. I get what you're saying. Because that's the big thing. A lot of people are like, we have the best AI, but most people are like, what the hell?

1:36:58What are we doing? You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So anyway, sorry. I think I kept you longer than we were supposed to. But yeah, sorry we got into a lot of technological stuff. I think it's just kind of like, you know, we don't know what's happening. And sometimes we want to talk, we get to talk to somebody like you and it's important, you know? Yeah, no, it's good. This is a fun conversation. Yeah, man, I enjoyed it too, man. Yeah, thanks for sharing just some of what your life is like with us. And just, I hope that, yeah, just keep, make sure we stay alive or whatever we're supposed to. And just keep taking.

1:37:28Working on it. Okay, that's all we can ask for now, sir. All right, awesome. Mark, thanks, dude. Appreciate it, brother. Now I'm just falling on the breeze, and I feel I'm falling like these leaves. I must be cornerstone. Oh, but when I reach that ground, I'll share this peace of mind I found. I can feel it in my bones, but it's going to take... I also want to say a thank you to the people at Grace Dental. That's Grace Dental in Palo Alto, California. They glued my tooth was broken and they glued it back together before the interview today. So I'm thankful that they helped and I'm grateful that I got to meet them.

1:38:20Thanks.