#599 - Sam Altman

27:50Can AIs – can they pull up pornography and stuff like that too or no? Sure. Oh my god. God, I didn't know that. No, it's fine. Yeah, but I just – yeah, I don't even need to know that. I'm going to have that stricken from my own record. Crypto is – it's kind of blowing up again. Some people say it's back. It's not back. Like it's one of the best things is it hasn't left. It is it has maintained itself as a viable form of currency. And I'm back in. I'm back invested. And when I need more Bitcoin or Solana or XRP, Moon Pay is always the first app I open. Since Moon Pay works with Apple Pay, Venmo, PayPal, bank accounts and credit cards, it's fast and easy to get what I need in a few clicks.

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30:16I love using it in my smoothies at home. I'll make me a little smoothie. Bang dong. Put in some blueberries. Hit it with a little packet of Armra colostrum. We've worked out a special offer for our audience here. Receive 15 % off your first order, go to tryarmra.com slash Theo or enter T-H-E-O to get 15 % off your first order. That's T-R-Y-A-R-M-R-A.com slash Theo. What legal system does AI have to work by? Is there like a legal, like are there, like we have laws like in the world, right? Like in the human world, is does AI have to work by any like legal laws, you know? Yeah, so I think we will certainly need a legal or a policy framework for AI.

31:11One example that we've been thinking about a lot, this is like a, maybe not quite what you're asking, this is like a very human-centric version of that question. People talk about the most personal shit in their lives to ChatGPT. It's, you know, people use it, young people especially, like use it as a therapist, a life coach, having these relationship problems, what should I do? And right now, if you talk to a therapist or a lawyer or a doctor about those problems, there's like legal privilege for it. You know, like it's, there's doctor-patient confidentiality, there's legal confidentiality, whatever.

31:44And we haven't figured that out yet for when you talk to ChatGPT. So if you go talk to ChatGPT about your most sensitive stuff and then there's like a lawsuit or whatever, like we could be required to produce that. And I think that's very screwed up. I think we should have like the same concept of privacy for your conversations with AI that we do with a therapist or whatever. And no one had to think about that even a year ago. And now I think it's this huge issue of like how are we going to treat the laws around this? Well, do you think there should be like kind of like a slowing things down before we move there kind of?

32:15Because, yeah, that is kind of wild. It's one of the reasons I get scared sometimes to use certain AI stuff because I don't know how much personal information I want to put in because I don't know who's going to have it. I think we need this point addressed with some urgency. And, you know, the policymakers I've talked to about it, like, broadly agree. It's just, it's new, and now we've got to do it quickly. Do you talk to Chachabuti? I don't talk to it that much. It's because of this? I think it is. It's because it's like... I think it makes sense. To not talk to Chachabuti? No, no, no, to, like, really want the privacy clarity before you use it a lot.

32:48Yeah. Like, the legal clarity. Yeah, it's scary. And it's like, well, how long does it take lawmakers to come up with that? and then it feels like it's moving so fast that it's like it doesn't even matter. Sometimes it's like it doesn't even really matter. It's like are we even waiting for the laws to be put around this or what's going on? Does it feel like it's moving too fast for you sometimes? The last few months it felt very fast. It feels faster and faster, but the last few months it felt very fast. Yeah, I was watching this guy, Yoshua Bengio. Yoshua Bengio. Yoshua Bengio. And he's kind of like some people call him the father of AI.

33:22may be self-proclaimed i'm not really sure um but he certainly seemed to be kind of like a lifeguard for ai like thinking about like well you know how do we keep the pool safe you know how much water should be in it you know the chlorine what you know how many lifeguards you need on duty that type of thing hypothetically um and he said and he was saying that some ais they they have like deception techniques inside of them like that there were ais that would rather give you an answer that was possibly pleasing to the user than to give them the factual answer. And then he was also saying that there were AIs that were developing some of their own languages to communicate with each other, which would be languages that we don't even know.

34:10What is that? How do you guys curtail that when those types of things come up? What does that even kind of feel like to you guys? Are these just problems that happen in new spaces and you figure it out as you go? You know, there are these moments in the history of science where you have a group of scientists look at their creation and just say, you know, what have we done? Maybe it's great. Maybe it's bad. But what have we done? And like maybe the most iconic example is thinking about the scientists working on the Manhattan Project in 1945, sitting there watching the Trinity test and just, you know, this thing that it was a completely new, not human scale kind of power.

34:52And everyone knew it was going to reshape the world. And I do think people working on AI have that feeling in a very deep way. You know, we just don't know. Like we think it's going to be great. there's clearly real risks. It kind of feels like you should be able to say something more than that. But in truth, I think all we know right now is that we have discovered, invented, whatever you want to call it, something extraordinary that is going to reshape the course of human history. Dear God, man. But if you don't know, we don't know. Well, of course. I mean, I think no one can predict the future.

35:29Like human society is very complex. This is an amazing new technology. Maybe a less dramatic example than the atomic bomb is when they discovered the transistor a few years later. The transistor radio? The transistor part that, you know, made computers and radios and everything else. But we discovered this completely new thing that enabled the whole computer revolution and is in this microphone and those computers and our iPhones. And like the world would be so different if people had not discovered that. And then over the decades figured out how to make them smaller and more efficient. And now we don't and think about it because the transistors are just in everything.

36:03We have all this modern technology from that one scientific discovery. And I do think that's what AI is going to be like. We had this one crazy scientific discovery that led to these language models we all use now. And that is going to change the course of society in all kinds of ways. And of course, we don't know what they all are. Damn. I was hoping you knew by the end of that sentence. Or I was hoping you would, you know, like that's what we're, because we don't know. You know, like that's, I think, the tough thing. There's no time in human history at the beginning of a century where the people ever knew what the end of the century was going to be like.

36:40So maybe it's, I do think it was faster and faster each century. It's certainly like, you know, in 1900, you couldn't have predicted what 2000 was going to be like. I think in 2000, you could even less predict what 2100 was going to look like. But that's kind of why it's exciting. And that's kind of why people get to figure out and unfold the story as we go. it's kind of bizarre because there's a part of me that's like this guy's out of his mind this guy is a is a is a wild wizard you know there's a couple different things but then there's also this part of me that's like this guy is this hopeful guy who's like involved in this crazy space and he kind of has this whimsical energy about the future which is in a crazy way a nice energy to have about the future generally is that something could happen or that things are possible.

37:30So it just, yeah, it's all kind of like, I don't know, it's fascinating. It's definitely fascinating to me. Sam, to kind of pivot a little bit, there's, it feels like there's a race right now in AI, right? Would you say that there's a race between companies in AI? It certainly feels that way. Yeah. And it almost feels like you guys are the new Formula One drivers or you guys are like the new, like, uh, it's like, um, Mario Andretti or you guys are the new, like, uh, Bubba Watts and all the, you know, it's almost like these are the new race cars that everybody's kind of watching position themselves.

38:04Um, what is the race for? Because you hear about AI and then you hear about AGI, uh, and then you hear about super intelligence. What is, what is this race that's going on how real is it and what is the race for when i was a kid the race was like the megahertz race and then it became the gigahertz race everybody wanted a computer with a faster processor oh yeah you know intel would come out with this one and then amd would come out with this one and every like it turned out that those gigahertz measurements eventually were not even that helpful like you could have one that had a lower number and it was in practice it was faster and eventually I think it was Apple that realized they should just stop talking about the clock speed of their computers and you probably don't even know what the processor speed of your iPhone is today.

38:52Yeah, it's true. Yeah, that was a big thing and it kind of disappeared. And I think the same thing has been happening in AI where everybody was racing on these benchmarks. You know, I score this on this benchmark and this on that one. And now people are realizing that like, okay, the benchmarks are kind of saturated. We went through the equivalent of our megahertz race with our benchmark race and now people kind of don't care about that as much. And now it's like who's using the model, who's getting the value out of it, things like that.

39:24But I do think people still feel like we're heading towards some milestone. What the milestone is, they disagree on, but maybe it's a system that's capable of doing its own AI research and its own sort of self-improvement. Maybe it's a system that is like smarter than all of humans put together. but they feel like there is some finish line to cross. I actually don't quite feel like this, but I think a lot of people in the industry that there's some finish line that we're going to cross. Maybe it's this like self-improvement moment to maybe you call that super intelligence. Um, and I think there is a sort of, there's like a race to get somewhere, but people don't agree on where it's to or something.

40:04What are you racing towards? You feel like it's a great question. Um, I don't have like a finish line in mind. There's nothing I could say to that. I don't think I can articulate anything where I would say like, this is mission complete. But if I had to give like a self-referential answer there, you know, the moment where we would rather give our research cluster, like our, you know, GPUs that we run all of our AI experiments on, the moment where we would rather give that to an AI researcher rather than our brilliant team of human researchers, that does at least seem like some kind of very different new era yeah and at that point who's even we i feel like it's just you kind of like wheeling the stuff across the hall and you know like who's gonna you know i'm saying like or you know i'm saying it starts to get this idea like if we keep if ever if things were to keep leaving the the people and go to the computer you're just shoveling coal into the ai hypothetically you know again i assume that what will happen like with every other kind of technology is we'll realize like we there's this one thing that the tool's way better than us at now we got to go solve some other problems so let's put our brain power there i i still don't think it'll ever feel like we all just get to like push a button and go on vacation got it um like we will i think as what one version of this is as uh as capabilities go up because as we get better tools the expectation goes way up too and so But we've got to like, yes, we get much better tools, but we have to do way more to remain competitive.

41:39Well, I think there's this hopeful idea. Say if you come up with all these. Or maybe not. Like maybe the AI is just better than us. Absolutely everything. We just sit there and be like, all right, that was cool. Yeah, because at a certain point, if something has all the information, right? If something has all the information and it can think and ponder and pontificate and serve multi options of answers, don't we then work in for that thing? Like that's what I start to wonder. Like if it's the smartest thing in the room. GPT-5 is the smartest thing. GPT-5 is smarter than us in almost every way, you know.

42:11And yet here we are. So there's like, there's something about the way the world works. There's something about, this doesn't mean it's true forever, but there's something about what humans can do today that is so different. There's also something about what humans care about today that is so different than AI that I don't think the simplistic thing quite works. now again by the time it's a million times smarter than us who knows is part of you want to kind of get there like how do we get where like I open the door and I say excuse me sir and it's just my computer in there you know what I'm saying you know when when I was a kid I I sort of thought about these technological revolutions that happen one at a time there was the agriculture revolution a long time ago and that freed us up to do these other things And then there was the like, there was the age of enlightenment and there was the industrial revolution and there was the computer revolution and all these things happened.

43:05And I thought of them as like these distinct things. And now I view it as just this one long compounding exponential where all of these things come together. Each piece of technology is built continuously overlapping on the one that comes before and we're able to just do more and more. and so in some sense AI is this big special unique different thing and in some other sense it is just part of this long arc of human progress we talked about the transistor earlier but like that was way more important in some sense to AI happening than the work we do now and all this stuff has to like compound compound you got to build the internet you got to get all this data you got to do all these things and and I want that exponential to keep going there will be things way after AI we'll invent all sorts of new things we'll go colonize space we'll go you know build neural interfaces who knows what else we'll do but i think at some point ai fades into that arc of history we build we don't we don't even think about it it's like transistors which don't even think about today it's just another layer in the scaffolding that humans collectively have built up bit by bit over time and where you sit in our day you get to open that door you have this like computer that only has one interface you just it says what do you want you say whatever you want it happens and you figure out amazing new things to build for the next generation and the next and the next and we just keep going yeah i think the the part that i think gets spooky is i can't build any i can build some stuff but i can't build like any technological stuff so then i'm like dang dude well i'm not gonna what am i gonna build over there okay so right now i can write software maybe you can't and i have a little advantage if i want to go build some technological thing very soon you can make any piece of software you want because you just ask an ai in english you say i got an idea for an app make me this thing and the whole thing just happens so that's a win for you maybe it's a little bit of a loss for me i think it's kind of cool for the whole world yeah but like this is this is going to be a technology that anybody can use you can just like with natural language you can say this is what i want it goes off and writes the code for you debugs it for you deploys it for you and then you can say how do i use what i just created yeah But if you have a great idea, AI will just make it happen for you.

45:21And this is a new thing. I think this will make technology the most accessible it ever has been. Got it. Okay, then that seems a little bit different. I think there's this idea in my head that I'm going to have to figure out all this coding. I'm going to have to figure out all of these different ways to do things to even have a possibility of use of myself in the future. No, I think this is, without talking too much about the future and what we're going to launch, Like the fact that you will be able to have an entire piece of software created just by like explaining your idea is going to be incredible for humans getting great new stuff.

45:56Because right now I think there's like a lot more good ideas than people who know how to make them. And if AI can do that for us, we're really good at coming up with creative ideas. Yeah. I mean, that's one of the things that people like to do. do you think right now if humans regular average humans, most humans could vote to keep AI going or to stop AI, what do you think that they would vote? This is like totally kind of, I don't have any data for this. I would bet most people who use ChatGPT, which is a lot of people now, they would say like keep it going and most people who don't would say it's scary, stop it.

46:31What do you think? Yeah, I feel like most people would say stop it, I think, or pause it, take the wheels off of it for a month, that kind of thing, siphon the gas out of the tank, you know, like that kind of thing, put sugar in it. I think there would be like that kind of thing. What are you most afraid of with it? Or is it just that we're not going to have purpose and we don't know how it's all going to go? Yeah. I mean, those are some of the huge parts, but I think like there's like probably that. I think that in the end, I think there's a general feeling of like, well, if all the trucking jobs disappear, you know, if those become automated and, um, and like, yeah, if everything becomes a robo tax, like, you know, will that feel, you know, where will those people go for jobs?

47:16Will everybody just be dancing on Tik TOK, trying to get people to tip them for trends and stuff, you know, like there's part of that. I had this dream years ago that it all ends with everybody's driving an Uber and literally holding each other at gunpoint to be each other's passengers, right? Like get in my goal. Cause that's how bad, like somebody's like, I need the fare more than you do. You know, my whole family's in the backseat, sit shotgun, we'll get you to where, you know, like people are literally holding each other at gunpoint to subscribe to their only fans and stuff. Like it's just that, um, dystopian or whatever.

47:50Um, so I guess part of that, but then there's a deeper part where it's like, yeah, what comes out of us if it feels like a lot of the regular stuff that gives us purpose that we know right now gives us purpose is there a new evolution of our purpose is there like a blooming inside of us is it this utopian place that you almost think of as like a heaven idea where you know people are fed and have enough you know can are provided for can take care of themselves i guess that's what that that's it or Or what, because purpose gives people work, work gives people so much of their purpose. And so for to lose those things, what is it, what happens, you know?

48:31And I know I kind of keep asking that over and over again. You don't really have the answers. And that's, it's okay. Of course, how could you? We're not in the future. I mean, I think people really do love to be useful to each other. And people love to express their creativity as part of that. and

48:53as the long term trend of society getting richer has continued more people I think are able to do get closer to sort of expressing themselves in the best way that they can maybe like you know as recently as five or six hundred years ago not very many people got to be artists the world wasn't that rich there were a limited number of patrons that could like pay you to create art but there were more than zero. And before that, there were almost none. And then you got this beautiful Italian renaissance and all of this amazing art because there was like excess capital in the world. And now a lot more people can be artists or a lot more people can start startups, which is another, like for me, that's like my expression of creativity.

49:35Right. Or more people can create content. Yeah. And this idea that people can find And whatever way they can to express themselves, their talent, their vision for kind of collective love of other people and a care for putting their brick in society's progress. I think that can go really far. Now, what art in the future looks like now that AI can make art or help make art? I don't know. It'll probably be kind of different. what startups will look like in the future when people can kind of just say whatever they want to their AI and it can make the software for them right then. It will kind of be different.

50:18But I think it's such a bad bet to assume that either human creativity or human fulfillment from being useful to other people ends. I think we're just, we stay on this exponential. And like each year, each decade, our collective standard of living goes way up. The whole world gets way richer. We all get more. We all expect more. And even over like the course, I was thinking recently, like food is so much better than it is when I was a kid. Like the world has just figured out how to make food better. Like we, you know, know how to, we figured out organic vegetables or whatever it is. I don't know.

50:54It just tastes much better. And like, I think that's great. I don't want to go back to eating like the frozen carrots or whatever. Yeah, I guess that's a good point. But then there's some, like I saw this thing the other day. It was like a kitchen. They had like one of those robo kitchens or whatever. You know when you order food from like something dash or whatever and then you – but it's like Hank's ribs and then it's like Marty's pizza and then it's like Susan's salami shop. But they're all the same place, you know? And when you get that from window dash, you don't like – you feel like something's missing, right?

51:30You're like, ah, this is fake. I can tell. I get less enjoyment. you would rather get that food from like the dude who's been making it and perfecting it on the you know that little pizza shop on the corner for the last 20 years right because that's like part of like that dude is part of the experience that authenticity is part of the experience right i don't think that goes away with a like fake robotic thing okay yeah because i think i start to feel like we're in this universe where it's like you're walking down the street or something and like a waymo goes by and it's like eat now and you're like but and you already did eat it's just got a bad reading or something.

52:03It's got a bad valve in it or something. You're like yelling at it. There's nobody in there. And you're like, I already ate. It's like, sit down and eat now. And it just like fucking uses like a t-shirt cannon to just like shoot a burrito at yours. And then you're sitting there, you're eating that, you know, and then the GLP car goes by, right? It says, I can help you out. Yes. And it's like, obviously you've overeaten. You're like, I didn't even want to eat that thing's messed up, right? You're yelling at a car that has no driver in it. And then it shoots you with three GLP one darts in the neck.

52:31And now your wife doesn't even recognize you when you get home or whatever, you know, the fact that you find this so off putting, I think is a sign for optimism. Yeah. Like you're wired. You're going to be resistant to that. That's not going to make you happy. That's not gonna make other people happy. Now maybe we get tricked. Like social media tricked us for a while. We got too addicted to feeds, whatever, but we realized like, actually this is not helping me be my best, you know, like doing the equivalent of getting the like burrito can into my mouth on my phone at night, like that's not making me long-term happy.

53:07Right. And that's not helping me like really accomplish my true goals in life. And I think if AI does that, people will reject it. However, if ChatGPT really helps you to figure out what your true goals in life are and then accomplish those, you know, it says, hey, you've said you want to be a better father or a better, you know, you want to be in better shape or you want to like grow your business. if you want, we can change that goal and I can help you scroll TikTok all night or, you know, eat the burritos or whatever. And I'll give you the GLP one shots and I'll make you as healthy as you can.

53:38But like, maybe instead I can try to help convince you you should go for a run tonight. And I think if AI feels like it is helping you try to accomplish your goals and be your best, that will feel very different than the last generation of technology. Yeah. And you know what? And that's where I'm like, and that's where a kid growing up right now, to them, that would probably, some young people might be like, that makes the most sense. I'm a little older generation. I might be like, oh, that seems a little, but that's always how things are with generation and generation. It's always how it goes.

54:06Yeah, you're right. And maybe this is just like a quicker evolution of things. And for young people, it's going to make so much sense. And for older people, it's just going to be like, get off my, you know, avatar lawn or something, you know. But that's the way of societal progress. That's just how it goes. Good point. You know, it's an interesting time for business. tariff and trade policies are dynamic supply chains are squeezed and cash flow is tighter than ever if your business can't adapt in real time you're in a world of hurt you need total visibility from global shipments to tariff impacts to real-time cash flow that's net suite by oracle your ai powered business management suite trusted by over 42 000 businesses net suite is the number one cloud ERP for many reasons.

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55:39That's netsuite, N-E-T-S-U-I-T-E.com slash Theo. There's definitely been a lot of talk about like tech and governance, right? And I know we touched on it a little bit earlier. And there were people like lobbying and Trump had a big, beautiful bill for like a 10-year ban on state legislation against AI. What do you think about that? Like letting it be this rogue space? There have to be some rules here. There has to be some like guidelines. there has to be some sort of regulation at some point. I think it'd be a mistake to let each state do this kind of crazy patchwork of stuff. I think like one countrywide approach would be much easier for us to be able to innovate and still like have some guardrails, but there have to be some guardrails.

56:31Do you, have you met with governments and like government leaders to have discussions like that? Like, are they meeting with you? Cause they might, they - Yeah, yeah, they do meet with us. They haven't done anything big yet, but they're talking about it. do they meet with you to try to keep information out of um you guys's data you know for all of the paranoia about that i don't think we've ever had someone come say like i don't want it to say this negative thing about this politician or this whatever uh the concerns are like what is this going to do to our kids you know are they going to stop learning there's a lot of concerns about that um is this going to spread fake information is this going to influence elections but we've never had the like you can't say bad things about the president trump or whatever Um, what about bias is a big thing.

57:15Like they do want to know, like, you know, if it'll say bad things about one candidate, it'll say bad things about the other. Could you guys make it do one or the other? Like, can you guys favor the back end or like? We totally could. I mean, we don't, but we totally could. You could. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I think like. I know you. How do you mean? Like, do we give you guys lie detector tests? Are we like, how do we know? We have to like test the system. I mean, you can, anyone can like test the AI and say, if I say this, to say this. If I say that. Oh, that's a good point. But you touch on a really big point here, which is like hundreds of millions of people talk to chat GPT every day.

57:47And it probably has like a big impact on what they believe. And so I think society's interest in making sure that we are, you know, a responsible, neutral party should be huge. Now people do test it a lot and I think that's good, but like we got to be held to a very high standard there. But how do we like this as regular people or how do like regular people just held you guys to a high standard? Like, is it the, I guess it's politicians responsibility or, I mean, these guys are idiots. Some of them are like 80-year-old dudes giving thumbs up. That one guy couldn't get the Wi-Fi on. Remember that guy?

58:20That guy couldn't get the Wi-Fi on. So I'm like, how do we? I mean, there's a huge amount of people that test our systems all the time looking for any errors, any bias, any anything. I guess that's a good point. You can tell. You can tell, yeah. Right. People can test it on this end. As AI grows, like how big do data centers need to be? Is that a concern of you guys? I went recently to one of our new data centers under construction in Abilene, Texas. It was about like approximately one gigawatt facility, huge. It'll be the biggest data center ever built by the time it's done. And you stand in the middle of that and the scale of this project just hits you so big.

59:04That's like one little part of it. Dude, that's like eight Costco. There's like 5 ,000 people there doing construction on it and this thing is just standing out, making progress every day. And you stand in the middle of this thing. And what are you in a chariot or whatever? Like how do you even roll up? You're like in a little ATV. Oh, okay. It's like a dirty kind of construction site. But the scale of this thing, and then you kind of go in every room and you look at all the cables, the power, the cooling systems, rack after rack of servers. And it's humongous. There's like, they're standing up these like power plants right in the middle of it.

59:38Oh, yeah. It's crazy to see. It starts to make our planet look like a software board. It does. When you see it from the air, I was really struck by that. I was like, this looks like the motherboard of a computer. Yeah, it looks like the motherboard of a computer. You start to see how the planets in a lot of these sci-fi movies, a lot of them have that R2-D2 look on the outside because they've been - Covered in data centers. Yeah, which is kind of wild. Do you know where we're going and you're not telling us? I don't. I don't. You promised, dude. I don't know. I mean, I have all my guesses. Like I do guess that a lot of the world gets covered in data centers over time.

1:00:15You really? But I don't know because maybe we put them in space. Like maybe we build a big Dyson sphere on the solar system and say, hey, it actually makes no sense to put these on Earth. Yeah. I wish I had like more concrete answers for you, but like we're stumbling through this. We maybe, you know, have a little bit higher confidence than the average person but there's so much we don't know yet. No, that's the craziest thing about you, Sam. And I think this is a compliment somehow now dear God. And it, yeah, it is a compliment. You're like, it's like, you're like, come with me through the universe.

1:00:46And you're like, people are like, well, what's it like? You're like, I don't know exactly, but, and then we're all, it's like, we're all going. It's like, um, I don't know. You're just somehow the most, like, uh, you're this, like this charming kind of Terminator. It feels like, and I hate to say Terminator, that's a crazy term, but like, uh, But you're just like, I'm like, okay. I'm curious. You somehow seem so optimistic about it. It adds to my curiosity. When I was a kid, I assumed that there were always some adults in the room. Someone had a plan. Someone knew everything that was going to happen.

1:01:22Someone had it all figured out. And I sort of think why people like conspiracy theories is it's nice to think that someone's got a plan. It's nice to think someone that, you know, has it all figured out. And then I got a little bit older and I sort of started to suspect there are no adults in the room. No one, people have plans. I have plans. But no one has all the answers. No one knows where it's all going to go. And now that I am the adult in the room, I can say with certainty, no one knows where it's all going to go. Like I'm the guy in the room and I have some guesses and I have some plans and we're working really hard.

1:01:57But like, you know, we try to always say what we think the possibilities are. what we think is most likely. Often we're right. Sometimes it's in the broader set. And sometimes it goes in a totally different direction than anything we thought. And, you know, we keep trying to make progress, figure out more. We try to tell people, not just tell, we try to show people by like deploying these systems and say, hey, you can go use it. Don't just take our word for it. Try it out, see what it can do. But like I can say with conviction, the world needs a lot more processing power. but if that looks like tiling data centers on earth which i think is what it looks like in the short term in the long term also or we do go build them in space i don't know it sounds cool to try to build them in space but also really hard what about like the environmental effects of those and stuff like there's been like you know there's been articles written and i don't know how much of it is real or not real right because who knows what to believe but you'd have to think that you know it takes water to cool them right it takes power to power them yeah you know um there's something like Arizona and Iowa that there's been like repercussions within the environments here in the communities.

1:03:04And a lot of those companies don't have to report those things because it's considered proprietary, you know? What do you think about those fears? Or how do you guys manage that? Like, do you guys talk about that? Do you meet with environmentalists? Like, what does that all look like? I think we need to get to fusion as fast as possible. Get to what? Nuclear fusion. I think that is the. Oh, shit. What is it? where you basically knock two small atoms together and it makes a bunch of energy, but no carbon, very clean, doesn't generate, you know, doesn't really harm the environment. And power can become like abundant and pretty limitless on earth.

1:03:38And we get out of all the current problems we're in. Are you guys investing in that? We are. And I think AI can help us figure it out even faster. So that's like a, you know, if you have to like burn a little bit more gas in the short term, but you figure out, you know, the future of energy with that AI, it's a huge win. And would you guys sell tickets to that or what do you think that would be like? Yeah, I think we just - Because people are going to watch that shit. I mean, yeah. People go to monster trucks. You don't think they'll roll up to watch those two things hit each other? The atoms hit each other?

1:04:04Yeah. It's pretty hard to watch two atoms hit each other, but maybe with the, you know, somehow we can do it. Or what if they did like those sperm races where they put them out of those big things or whatever? I love those sperm races. They're kind of crazy. I - I'm like, dude, there's enough of that going on. Look, I think the way - Yeah, there'll be some way to watch Fusion and it'll be awesome. and it'll be like loud and bright and theatrical and it'll be making huge amounts of energy. Even if you can't watch the two atoms hit, you'll watch them collectively produce fireworks. But we're going to need that?

1:04:34Do you think if we're going to get to AGI or if we're going to get to super intelligence, do we need that? I bet we can get there without it, but to provide it at the scale that humanity will demand it, I think we do need it. Because the desire to use this stuff, people are just going to want more and more and more and eventually the two things that I think matter most the two kind of critical inputs are intelligence and energy the ability to have great ideas, come up with plans and then energy is the ability to make them happen in the world and also to run the intelligence and I think the story of the next couple of decades is going to be the demand for these goes up and up and up to crazy heights and we better find out how to produce a lot otherwise someone's going to feel like they're getting screwed yeah dang dude i can't tell if i'm excited or scared maybe i'm both and maybe that's all the same thing you have to be both you have to be both i don't know if it's the same thing or not i think it is kind of like they do feel related to me always um but i don't think anyone could honestly look at the trajectory humanity is on and not feel both excited and scared yeah and maybe that's always been the way throughout time and also then this is where we are what are we getting, what are you going to do?

1:05:48You know, like this is where we are. And so that's what's going on. Um, I saw where you and Joe Rogan spoke about there possibly being one day like an AI president, you know, where like, what if you had this one's kind of, let's just use the term supercomputer or this agent that was created that knew all the information and knew all of the problems and knew the best ways to solve them. Um, is that, do you think that something like that is becoming more and more possible one day? I don't know everything that it takes to be a president, but I do know it like takes a lot of things that I don't have to do and that people are going to, well, maybe I could reframe it to an AI CEO of open AI.

1:06:32Cause I didn't know what that job is like. Okay. That should be possible someday. Maybe not even that far. Like I think the idea to look at an organization to make really good decisions. There's a lot of things you can imagine that an AI CEO of OpenAI could do that I can't. I can't talk to every person at OpenAI every day. I can't talk to every user of ChatGPT every day. I cannot synthesize all that information even if I could. But an AI CEO could do that. And it would have better information, more context. It could massively parallelize this. And I think that would lead to better decisions in many cases.

1:07:02Yeah, because wouldn't a supercomputer, something that has all knowledge, which you think will get there. I do. You do. I mean, all knowledge is a hard thing to say. I think it will have vast, vast amounts. Will it be able to tell us about God or anything, do you think? I'm super curious about that. I think it will be able to help us answer questions about the nature of the universe that we currently can't. And I feel very confused and very unsatisfied with our current answers. And there is clearly, to me at least, something going on well beyond our current capability to understand. And I would love to know what that is.

1:07:42Do you think it could help us learn more? Yes.

1:07:48I wonder if God has a chat GPT or whatever, or just wonder he has the first one or whatever. But yeah, I'm just so curious, like how would that work? How does OpenAI make money? We sell chat GPT, pay 20 bucks a month. Some people like 200, but very few or relatively few. Perverts, I think they are. Mostly, hopefully, they're just working super hard and using it for being more productive with their job. And then we also sell an API. So businesses can use and they like pay us every time they make an API call. Okay. Do you think like there's a lot of these like kind of tech lords that are rocking right now, right?

1:08:28And you get thrown in there, you know. Sometimes. I'm like on the periphery. Yeah. Yeah, or you get certainly like, yeah, like these council, these councilmen kind of like, do you think there's bad artists amongst like these tech lords in these AI realms? Do you think there's bad artists out there? What does bad artists mean? Just like people that want for evil and not for good. I think most people don't wake up. I think very few people wake up every morning saying, I'm going to try to make the world a worse place or I'm going to actively try to do evil. clearly some do but I think most of these people running the big tech efforts are not in that category I think people get blinded by ambition I think people get blinded by competition I think people get caught up like very well meaning people can get caught up in very negative incentives negative for society as a whole and by the way I include us in this like we can totally get caught up and we can be very well meaning but get caught up in some incentive and it can lead to a bad outcome so that's kind of what I would say I think people come in with good intentions they clearly sometimes do bad stuff there's a lot of talk about like Palantir and Peter Thiel and their company about being like you know they got to deal with from Trump about to have this surveillance or not a surveillance state but to create a database on most of America but it starts to feel like a surveillance state you know do you feel like we will need something like that in order for the future?

1:10:04Do you feel like something like that is included in the future? So I don't know about that specifically. I mean, I think Palantir and Peter do a lot of great stuff. But again, I can't comment on this specifically. I'll say generally, I am worried that the more AI in the world we have, the more surveillance the world is going to want because the tool is so powerful. The government will say, like, how do we know people aren't using it to make bombs or bioweapons or whatever? And the answer will be more surveillance. And I'm very afraid of that. So I don't, I think we really have to defend rights to privacy.

1:10:43I don't think those are absolute. I'm, like, totally willing to compromise some privacy for collective safety. But history is that the government takes that way too far. And I'm really nervous about that. do you guys feel like the new government kind of or do you feel like the government is still like a real thing i don't feel like the government anyway you don't when the u.s government bombed iran recently i remember waking up that morning and seeing that news or whatever time it was uh and i was like oh that's what actual power looks like you know that we're in like a maybe someday we get there but it was like a really stark reminder of however important we think this is it's like there are people that have just like this unimaginable power and might and can kind of do whatever they want and that's definitely not us yeah yeah i think that's been a lot in the middle east recently it's just like it's just such a gross displays over there sometimes of inhumanity absolutely it's sad um what do you think a guy like then like palantir peter teal's end game is.

1:11:47Do you think he has an end game? Because I think he seems like a dark lord to a lot of us and it's like, does you think he has an end game that is like happy? I think Peter is one of the most brilliant people I've ever met. Oh, he's smarter than me, that's for sure. I think he does get caricaturized in the media as this like evil mastermind. As a villain, he does. I never met him. I met him. We're very close friends. I should have brought it up then. No, it's all good. No, no, no, feel that energy from him, but I at all, like I, in fact, I think he's been one of the most important forces, at least in my life for questioning assumptions about the path that society was on.

1:12:33And maybe I was like, Oh, I thought this was all going well, but maybe we are in a tech stagnation. Maybe we really do have this huge economic challenge that no one's talking about. And so I think these people who are just very, that think very differently, he would call it very contrarian, is super important to a society. Now, on the other hand, maybe he

1:13:04sometimes does things like this that don't do him any favors. What is it? You would prefer the human race to endure, right? You're hesitating. Yes? I don't know. I would – This is a long hesitation. This is a long hesitation. There's so many questions implausible in this. Should the human race survive? Yes. OK. But – God. I mean that was 22 seconds it took him. Yeah. But so if he were maybe like a more typical person, he would have just said an immediate yes. Right. And then said what else he wanted to say. And it took me a while with him to understand that his brain just works differently. And society needs some of that.

1:13:50Like he has these super different takes and then he doesn't have maybe the circuit in his brain that makes him immediately say yes and then say what he's going to say. But, you know. His processors, yeah. I'm very grateful he exists because he thinks of things no one else does. Yeah, you know, yeah, you want, they're novel thinkers have changed things throughout time, sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse, sometimes for the indifferent, but novel thinkers have, you've always like, I don't know, it's always been part of humanity. I'm probably super different and super weird relative to most people, but maybe I have some ideas as part of that that are like valuable to society collectively.

1:14:29And if I had this sort of very standard mindset, I wouldn't. That's a good point. Yeah. Well, do you think, and I'm just going to ask you real honestly, do you think a lot of these guys have, I mean, you know, it's not like, you know, love on the spectrum is like a big show, right? People, you know, it's like, and those people are in love shit. Half the people I know are just, you know, barely, you know, they're crying in parking lots or whatever, but, you know, there's spousal issues or whatever. But anyway, what I'm saying is, do you think that some of the creators now and some of the tech lords are almost have some tech built into them?

1:15:03Like almost a, I don't want to say like an autism dude. You can say that. Okay. I think so. I mean, yeah. I, you know, to take the kind of like harshest look at us collectively, I can, you know, are we a little autistic on the whole? I would say probably. I knew that shit. That's all right. No, no, that's what I'm saying. years ago, I was meeting, first time I ever met some people with autism, I was like, dude, these guys are computers, right? Like a lot of these guys are just, you know, they're some, they're kind of like a little bit of a cyborg in some way in the way that they think, right? You know, look, I'm, you are this like impossibly charming, cool guy.

1:15:38And I'm like, kind of a lot more computery than you. But not much though. We can have it. We can still like figure it out. Yeah. And I don't really don't mean as an offense, but I think that we may need that in people to get whatever's next in the world. Do you think that's realistic? Yeah. I think society needs like this very broad diversity of people. You need some people like me. You need some people who are more normal than me. You don't want too many of me, but like. Yeah. Yeah. You don't want too many of anyone thing. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just always, I'm like, God, yeah, these people are able to see things differently and quantify things differently.

1:16:09Do you always feel, because some tech guys, they just have a different understanding of possibility, right? A different understanding of feeling and thing. Do you feel human all the time? I do feel human all the time, but I feel like I have noticed that I think extremely differently about the future, about exponential change, about compounding technology than almost anybody else that I kind of come across in regular life. That's cool. I feel extremely human. I feel like, you know, driven by crazy emotions as much as anybody, but I am like very aware that I have a different lens than a lot of people.

1:16:47Have you met some people Well, in tech space, you're like, whoa, that guy is only like 6 % or 7%. He's low. Not a lot of human in him. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Do you think it's inevitable that AI or AGI will merge into our bodies? I know you've talked about this before in the past. As things go along and advance quickly, do you start to see that a little bit differently? I know you've talked about how you don't think it's like a glasses thing or something like that. I'll tell you a fascinating story. Okay. I was with a friend last week. And did I offend you by asking that? Not at all. Okay. Zero percent.

1:17:19I thought that was a great answer. I really appreciate it. Because yes, some of us are, we can't conceptualize sometimes how you guys are thinking. It can't, I can't even like, we feel like we can't figure it out, you know? So it feels like it's almost like a unique, it's like, are we all evolving into this new kind of species? And that's where we meet the future at anyway. And you're just like the dang Paul Revere out there, you know, it's like. For better or for worse, I think whenever you see someone who thinks differently than you, it's like, like, I'm fascinated by you. I don't quite understand how you do your thing.

1:17:48I know I couldn't do it. I know you like just understand the world differently than me. But I think that's cool. And I'm just like, all right, I'm glad. Yeah, that's how I feel. Yeah. I think it's just, thanks for just talking to me about it. Because sometimes I think I get afraid to say it. I don't think you should be afraid. I don't think anybody would be offended by that. I was talking to this friend of mine though about how he uses ChatGPT and he's been using it a lot for a couple of years now. And he noticed recently that he started giving it personality tests. He'd upload any personality test he could find to ChatGPT and say, based on what you know about me, answer this.

1:18:22And he had never told it, here's my personality. It had just learned it from the questions he asked over the years. And on every one he tried, it got exactly the answer and exactly the outcome he would get. And so that's not like he didn't get uploaded. He didn't get merged. He didn't plug something into his brain. but somehow like the pattern of him had gotten imprinted into this ai wow maybe we're not as complex as we think we are or maybe we are and ai can just learn it really well ai can like represent these very complex things one of those two but that was a real moment for me of like wow you know the merge maybe can happen in a very different way than we thought yeah yeah because you think of it as this thing kind of taking over your system and like, you know, your dad presses a button and you can't use the car, you know, you can't move for a month or whatever.

1:19:13Yeah. I think it kind of has that sort of energy. Um, you just, you just finished the acquisition of this a little bit more like day-to-day business. You just finished the acquisition of Johnny Ives, um, hardware company, um, uh, their hardware company. So clearly you have some thoughts or interest in how hardware and AI match up for each other in humanity. What was that about? There have been two revolutions in computers in history. There was the keyboard, mouse, and screen, that thing that was invented down the street in, I think, the 70s, where the people at Xerox PARC figured out what has become the modern computer interface.

1:19:55and then in the early 2000s, I guess, Apple figured out this idea of touch on a device. And really, those have been the two big ones. I think now there can be a third. I think AI, it so changes the game that you can design a new kind of computer based off of a really smart AI where you can give a complex instruction to a system. It can go do it. You'll trust that it gets it right. You'll trust it to act on your behalf. it could like maybe be aware of everything going on in this room and it could like kind of not just be on or off but like lightly get our attention if it wants us to know something or maybe more aggressively get our attention it could really be like following what we're talking about here and remind us both of things later um and current hardware just can't do that the current kind of computers we have i don't think are a fair they don't honor what the technology is not really capable of so i want to make a totally new kind of computer that is meant for this world of AI helping you all the time.

1:20:54I'm super excited about it. You are? Yeah.

1:21:00You guys, there's this thing called agent that you guys just showed me earlier. I can take this out if I mentioned it and I was supposed to. It was pretty fascinating. It was cool to see. It is. Yeah. This is a new thing that we just did. But the idea that an AI can not just answer questions for you, but it can go actually do stuff on your behalf as your agent. It can go do research for you. It can go book something for you. It can go buy something for you. It can go change some things in the world for you and think more and use tools. I think most people think of ChatGPT as this app that you can ask anything, but it'll become this thing that can do anything.

1:21:37That'll change how you use computers. It'll change how you do things in your life. Yeah. I was watching the guy do it and it was just kind of fascinating. He was showing one time he went to like a website and bought something he needed. And then now moving forward, he could just be like, Hey, go to this and make sure to get me these or go to, uh, go here and see, go to the restaurants I like and see if there's any table available for 7.00 PM tomorrow. And it was able to book it and do everything. It was like having a secretary right there. It totally, when I first started using it, I was like, it was one of those moments where I could tell that, Oh man, doing this the old fashioned way is going to feel like the stone age so quickly.

1:22:13You know, I'm going to like try to tell people someday, like, do you remember when, if we wanted to do something, we actually had to go like click around the internet and like, you know, look for a table. And then if we wanted to move it, we had to like call the restaurant and that's going to be unimaginable. Cause of course you just tell your AI to do those things for you. Yeah. Yeah. You feel like you'd almost just tell it to go eat too. You know, that's the fun part. Yeah. Oh yeah. No one likes booking the table. Everyone loves sitting there eating. That's a good point, huh? Yeah. Yeah. It won't take away the fun part.

1:22:41That's the thing. I think you got to remember that it won't take away the fun part. You're going to do the things you want to do. There's a lot of things in your life you probably don't love doing. Like booking an open table is maybe one of them. Yeah. And then you'll have like old-fashioned be like, oh, book it. You know, you're like, Dad, what do you mean? Get off the phone or whatever. Don't call him, you freaking weirdo. Use your agent. Totally. Like, oh, go book it. There's like a lot of like, you know, Zuckerberg recently like kind of was poaching guys around town, right? And I'll say it.

1:23:10You don't have to say it. Allegedly. I'm not saying he did. He hired one of my buddies. but what I'm saying is there's this hypothetical that he was kind of poaching guys around town did that feel like a mafioso move in the community what was that like out here in the tech trenches I mean you know they want to get into the AI game I understand it and if he's going to do this he needs to hire some people so bring it yeah I'm going to upload myself into this plant in a second. Um, okay. No, but no, does it, do you kind of like the competition? Is that fun? It is. It's like winning is fun and I expect to win.

1:23:53And you got to love the comment. That's part of it, right? It makes it fun. I think what it would be like if we didn't have competition and drama in the world, it'd be so boring. Could, uh, actually, can I say one more thing about that? The best improvement I made in my life, in my life, personally in my life and for my own happiness over the last couple of years. A lot of bad shit has happened to us. To me, it's been like a crazy intense experience. And I just decided that I was going to like learn to love the hard parts. I was like, you know what? If I'm in this crazy moment, if I'm in this like crazy thing, if I like feel my emotions are high, I'm going to like make myself learn to be grateful for that, to love it, to find enjoyment in the tension, in the competition, whatever.

1:24:35And actually it worked and it kind of needed to work because like so many things go wrong in any given day. But I was like thinking about, you know, someday I'll be like retired on my ranch. I'll be sitting there watching the plants grow and I'll be missing the excitement and the drama and the anger and the tension and the whatever. And so I'm going to be like grateful for it and like learn to have fun with it. And now it like I cannot believe that that mind shift mindset shift worked, but it did. And were there practices like in a moment, like say like a moment came up, like some of the early ones, right?

1:25:07Because I agree with you that like having some mindset, like I used to hate traveling like every week traveling for work. But then one day I was like, dude, you have to travel for work. Deal with it. You may as well. Right. You may as well. Because for years you've been a vicious. And right there, suddenly it wasn't bad anymore. That happened for me too. Was there like just a practice or was it just this verbal reminder? Like I'm going to do this. I just kept saying it to myself. I was just like, someday you'll miss these moments. You may as well find a way to like find the happiness and kind of great gratitude for them in the moment.

1:25:38Yeah. A lot of these guys have bunkers. zucky has a bunky i know that somewhere out in hawaii people have bunkers do you have a bunker i have like underground concrete heavy reinforced basements but i don't have anything i would call look i'll let you i'll let you keep me on the ropes in a lot of this conversation but i am gonna call that out as a dang bunker dude sam that's a bunker what's the difference in a basement in a bunker a one a place you could hide when it all goes off or whatever i know yeah i have been thinking i should really do a good version of one of those but i don't i don't have like a i don't have what i would call a bunker but it has been on my mind not because of ai but just because of like people are dropping bombs in the world again and you know like that's a good point that's a very good point yeah based right there part of a house building typically used for storage laundry extra living space or utilities and then bunker built for protection often military or emergency related myth to withstand explosions.

1:26:40We don't have that yet. Do you guys do this just for me or do you use ChatGPT as the fact check? We did this just for you. I appreciate it. This is nice. Could we ever have instead of, so you start to see, say if AI comes over and there's this whole new kind of like, you know, I believe that one of the things that's been happening, there's been like a lot of like ice raids and people getting like taken out of their homes and, you know, there's been a lot of crackdown because part of me believes that they're having to get everybody documented or online basically because they're going to start to have this like uh this like facial recognition everywhere like i have this idea of that so yes this stuff had to happen because in a year or year and a half you wouldn't even be able to be outdoors anywhere anywhere without a drone or something noticing you or some camera noticing that you're not supposed to be there or you're not there with documentation, right?

1:27:34Whatever people's thoughts are on that. But just, so part of me starts to see like, oh, okay, that's going on. Do you think we could ever then down the line have new countries like delineated by like almost like a new AI landscape? Like remember when on Snapchat, if you were in a certain realm, you could put like a filter on something and they almost created these new like geo barriers and stuff. Do you think we could potentially be looking at something like that one day? I know that what you just said is going to happen. I know that we're going to have like cameras on, you know, all over the place and it's going to make the cities way safer because everybody, like if you commit a crime, they'll have like a facial recognition hit on you right away.

1:28:15But man, do I find that dystopic? Like you do. Of course, like I, you know, is it like a good trade if it means like people stop getting murdered in the streets? Yeah, sure. We agree to like give up some privacy for that but it it sits so uncomfortably with me you know i in like london or whatever you see those cameras on every street corner and you're just like you get used to it fast yeah but you're just like oh it feels like privacy is important and and like you you really are like there's nothing i can do to live in the world and avoid all these cameras and maybe it's worth it for society collectively but it

1:28:57it feels like we really do give up a lot to get it. But could there one day you think if we had that, then we could have whole new countries kind of that were... What do you mean by new countries in this case? Like say if there was this new kind of, this new like layer, right? A surveillance layer that's kind of in the air. Then could that be divided into different realms? Oh, yes, totally. I think there's all kinds of weird ways that that can happen. But the surveillance layer is so uncomfortable. Oh, yeah. It's going to be a nasty blanket. Is there anything else that you wanted to talk about, you wanted to get out, that you want me to ask you about?

1:29:38No, that was great. Why are there – why does Chad UBC have that hyphen thing? We got to do something about that. You know, we have this team that figures out what the model's personality should be like and how it should behave. And a lot of users like m-dashes. So we added more m-dashes. And now I think we have too many m-dashes. But that's the answer. It was just like, users liked it. We put more in. Now it's like a little bit of a meme. And it's quite annoying to me. We should fix that. But you're thinking about it too? I think we'll get it fixed very soon. Before you go, Sam, and thank you so much for your time today.

1:30:14It's been awesome. We appreciate it, man. It's helped me get to understand you, I feel like, a lot. I think maybe differently than I... I don't know if I had a perception. I didn't know what to think. What's the before and after? The before was like a little bit like,

1:30:31I guess I almost thought kind of like not as hopeful, but I don't know why. Maybe that's just my own. I think it's attaching my own perceptions of what I think about AI and stuff or the possibilities of technology, you know, like that kind of stuff, like that curmudgeon-y energy. I think I was probably attaching it to you. and now I feel like I'm more whimsical about it kind of like, or not whimsical, but like, let's see what can happen, right? And so I think that's pretty fascinating. I think it's not just let's see, it's like let's try to make it good, but let's realize that you have to like, you don't get to see all the way down the road.

1:31:05You kind of got to go one turn at a time and you like light up a little bit more. Yeah. Yeah, I think, yeah, I don't know. I just, I'm really, I'm really thankful for you. Even let me tell you what I thought, what I was like judging and then sharing like kind of what I thought now. In 20 years, what do you hope your legacy will be? You're going to have one. I mean, yeah, I guess. You certainly don't – I don't think anyone sits around while they're in like the middle of the game thinking about what the review is going to be after. At least I don't. And – But this is a big review you'll have. I have never been that motivated by like what, like I want to like play the game the best I can.

1:31:48I want to like, you know, do the best work I can have the most fun, like have the most impact or the most interesting stuff. But then, you know, you retire and then you die and then like life goes on and people as they're supposed to go on with life and forget about you. And this whole thing of like, I'm going to live for higher remembered after I die and my legacy and like, you're dead you know do you have one of those deals where you're saving your heart with those people what do you mean your brain sorry with the people over there cryonics you have a cryonic deal no i uh have you been approached about it i have been approached by it there was like a you haven't even fucking approached me ever asked for anything there was this like why company or company that i like helped out a long time ago by like giving some small deposit and then I never followed up on it.

1:32:36So I don't have anything in place. But maybe just a down payment somewhere down there. If things get weird, we'll go knock on their door. Yeah, but thank you so much, man. James Becerra says hello. He's a friend of mine. He's a great guy. And we just appreciate you so much. Sam, thanks for your time. Thanks for doing this. I really enjoyed it. Thanks for your time today. I thought it was very informative.

1:33:03a stone Oh, but when I reach that ground I'll share this peace of mind I found I can feel it in my bones But it's gonna tell you