#603 - Mariana van Zeller

24:54Well, then that's interesting because they're talking about like, you know, if AI got to certain levels, we'd have to create some sort of a universal basic income. And then I wonder in what way there would be few people that probably had a lot of ownership over status. And then in what ways would the rest of us look for status or create it? Maybe we'd realize that there was an error. Right. Because I think even evolution over time, like, realizes sometimes, oh, this isn't the right path. And it, of course, correct. maybe we would realize oh that this search for status isn't rewarding us as people and um maybe just uh investing the status that we want for ourselves if we can get that out of somebody else's joy creating joy in somebody else right then uh maybe that would be like a course correction you know i'm not sure yeah um i do think it's important for human evolution though which is why probably that is within us right the wanting to become the best and then creating the best that's good point huh probably well for for certain there's there's a thing inside of humans where we want to know why right like a lot of animals are running around like you know you don't wake up and like there's like a goat over there sitting like on the edge of the property and he's having a coffee and he's like scribbling down why he thinks things are going on today or something but we like we want answers yeah you know not everybody but a lot of us yeah yeah you do you're obviously a very curious person and you which is why you have a podcast and you like talking to people but i don't think everybody's that curious you do you're over there tickling voldemort okay you're over there bumming menthols off of voldemort so that you can get a little bit of information so i'm out here on the i'm in the tertiary you are in the trenches tickling voldemort is going to be on my bio you're tickling voldemort what do you do for a living UFC 319 is blowing back to the windy city Chicago for the first time in six years check out the fight card and get in on all the action at DraftKings Sportsbook the official sports betting partner of UFC Drakus Duplessis puts his middleweight title up against Hamzat Shimaev who's a perfect 14 and 0.

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30:23Go to ShipStation.com slash T-H-E-O to sign up for your free trial. There's no credit card or contract required. and you can cancel at any time. That's shipstation.com slash Theo. Let's go down another road. You had mentioned that what's happened signal are farcical, right? I'm not sure if they're farcical. I mean, I know that there are ways the government can go into it. I mean, there's a Pegasus, which is a program developed in Israel, which was used by governments all around the world, including Saudi Arabia. Maybe at some point it was being used by the United States government as well, in which they could basically gain access to our phones and see everything inside, even the encrypted messaging apps.

31:09Absolutely. However, it's still the app. Those are still apps that I use. But if we don't talk about locations and dates or the most sensitive information, we usually talk face to face or certain ways that I'm not going to disclose. For sure. I went to Katara a few months ago to do comedy for some military personnel over there. And part of me wondered if they had tapped my phone when I was there. Yeah. Because they kind of had me come very quickly at the last minute. I was like, why aren't they having me come, you know? Oh, wow. I mean, I thought it was very – Was it the government that invited you or was it the military?

31:49Yes, it was the hospitality people there. And they were extremely hospitable and they were very kind. I didn't get nothing inside of me set off any like qualms from them personally, like that they had any ill where they were out for anything nefarious against me for the Qatari military that you were doing. It was for the US. It was a joint base. Okay. But it just happened very fast. They're like, you know, can you come? My agent was like, if you can be at the airport in like five hours, you can go. Wow. And you'll be back in 36 hours. Wow. And so it was just a lot. And I was like, I was very gracious.

32:24I would go back in a heartbeat. I had a great time. So in a situation like that, do you go, do you already know what, do you have a set? Do you have your comedy set already? Oh, that was a hectic moment for me because, well, first I thought there was a part of me that was like, I'm going to, I could, are they going to kill me or whatever? Because, you know, journalism has recently become a little bit more, and I wouldn't call this journalism. I would definitely call this somebody recovering from addiction, doing their best in front of equipment from Best Buy. But I would say that. I love how they laugh.

32:53But these days, that is kind of like what the world, you know, it's like it's somebody trying to share what they think or get information that's not mainstream media. Right. Yeah. So and I just didn't know. I said, who knows if they put out a hit on, you know, the top 80 podcast, you know, right. Podcasts and like, OK, they're following us. And there was a part of me that was scared. So what did you do? Did you do anything with your phone? Well, the first thing I did was bring a friend. I was like, I'm not dying by myself over there. You know, so I brought my buddy Bizzle because he's had a good life.

33:23And so I was like, yeah, I'm picking somebody that's happy. I'm not picking somebody that still has to figure it out. But anyway, no, I just – because at first I didn't think that they would tap my phone or that they could have. But I don't know. Is it easier over there? And then I asked Sean Ryan and he's like, they probably did. They probably did. They probably – they tapped, yeah. Yeah, it's very possible. You know, I went to Vietnam. I did a story about the bride trafficking story we did was in Vietnam. And this is in this new season? For the new season, yeah. And it's a very sort of the government controls the press over there.

33:54And so it took us months to even get the visa approved, the journalism visa, to go to the country where we can bring all our camera gear and all that. And once we did, we were told immediately. We were assigned a government minder, a guy who's with us the whole time. And he also had some law enforcement guy with him. So every single interview we did, they were right there. Oh, and we had to send them questions in advance before every interview. And they would have to tell us it's OK to ask this. it's not okay to ask that, which for me, for the kind of work we do is horrible. We're trying to talk to, you know, these bright traffickers and these underworld characters, the Valdemores of the world.

34:30And, and we were being spied and listened, not spied, listened to the whole time. And then we actually found out through some sources there, uh, that they believed our phones were absolutely being tapped. And there was one day. And so, oh, and that our vans, our rental, rental vans were being tapped as well. And when we were told this one afternoon, the next morning, we had, we had to go get into the vans. And we were told that the fixer had taken our van because the van had had some problems overnight. And we were like, Oh, we are definitely being listened to Spine and listen to his bananas. While your van was sitting there overnight doing nothing.

35:07Nothing. And it wasn't even his job. I mean, he was the government minder and he took our van and disappeared with it for hours. And you're like, okay, this is real for real. But that's the problem, too. In some of those third world countries, you have to work two or three jobs even to get things organized. You're like, wait, I'm the fixer. I'm also, I also have to install these spy equipment. Right. Come on, guys. And then I get into the hotel room, and we're staying at a really nice hotel in northern Vietnam. The Rex Hotel? Was that it? It's not the Rex Hotel. Is there a Rex Hotel? There's a beautiful Rex Hotel, I believe, in Ho Chi Minh City.

35:39Oh, you've been? Yeah, I'd just been there once when I was a student, but it was nice. This was a long time ago. We were in a place called Sapa. It's up in the mountains. Okay. Carry on, sorry. And the phone is, there is a light, a red light. So basically I'm calling another room and discussing when is dinner or something with one of my colleagues. And the red light is like going on and then basically all signs that I was being. And then I was not on the phone. And then the red light kept on going in moments that I was on my cell phone talking to people. which they're not if I was being in fact tapped which people there told me I was they're not doing a great job because figure out the light yeah like the craziest would have been if you just open the closet it's just like a little Vietnamese guy just over here just with a glass but that is kind of funny when you get into like you know like I don't want to say poor because a lot of times I think of poor countries as more creative countries but you as you get into more creative countries you'll see like more creative fun things like that that are actually uh oh that's why i love traveling yeah it's pretty heartwarming to see um yeah the way that uh they're like this guy's a spy this is your equipment it's just an empty pint glass and the guy's like come on it's so good it's so good but the the biden administration had been there with the state department several members of state department's phones had been tapped they found out so it is absolutely possible it actually happens And it happens at the highest level.

37:04So for poor journalists like myself, where they're trying to control what I'm putting out there, they were afraid that I was going to be critical of China because China is the one – are the ones who are sort of – the kidnapped women, Vietnamese women are being taken to China. And they have a very sort of fragile alliance with China and they don't want to make them angry. So they had every – they wanted to know everything we were doing and make sure they weren't going to make China angry. it's so sad that when you think about uh when you think about the news right because the news or journalism is kind of the loudest voice of a nation right or just anything you know it's just it's so crazy how compromised um our voices are at the smallest level and at the loudest level um take me into some of that bride trafficking because it sounds bride you're like oh congratulations You know, you're like trafficking.

37:57You're like, oh, this took a turn, you know, in just one word. Yeah. Take me through some of that. What do you kind of learn? Like what took you over there in the first place? And then what's that relationship between China and Vietnam? Yeah. So we started seeing these videos online of essentially these women, a lot of times girls, teenage girls in markets in broad daylight being nabbed from the side of the street or these markets and then being kidnapped. Is that real? Yes. These exist. and against their will, you'd see them screaming and yelling, and we were, well, what is this? And we found out that a lot of them were being victims of this bride trafficking, where it exists because in China, you know, for many years, they had the, it started in 1970, they started the one-child policy.

38:44So this one, I remember seeing this one.

38:49You see there's a woman there? Oh, how scary. Sometimes it's their own families that sell them. A lot of times they're just kidnapped in the middle of the streets and taken across the border to China. And people can't help? And so it's a little bit, I think people decide not to help. There's also a tradition, which doesn't help the situation very much, but there is a tradition amongst the Hmong community, which is terrible. But if you're engaged, it's a tradition that you kidnap your wife. to take to the father and ask for permission for her hand. And it's sort of done with the acceptance of both families.

39:34And sometimes the woman is last to know. So what traffickers have been doing is that they've been using this cultural tradition to benefit their own actual kidnapping. Yeah, they're sort of like a mariachi band or something, and they think it's like part of the thing. Exactly. And they're actually kidnapping these women. And so they kidnap these women, and where do they— Were you able to find out more? Yeah. So what happens is one-child policy, a lot of in China, if you had more than one child, you'll have heavy fines. So as soon as you are pregnant, people wanted to know if it was a boy or a girl.

40:07And in China, culturally, men are the breadwinners. They're the ones who will take care of the parents when they're older. And so it's very important to have men and not women for them. And so there were massive amounts of abortions done if they found out it was a female. So nowadays, there are more men in China than there are women. Oh, that's got to suck. Single men. And again, if you're single in China, it's looked down upon because you're not procreating, you're not giving your parents grandkids. And there's enormous pressure on these men to find wives. And there just aren't enough. But it's not even their fault.

40:41The government set it up. I know. So it's like, what do you... I know. It's terrible. But then obviously, the last resort is that they go into these poor communities in Vietnam. And they pay these traffickers to kidnap them and pay them thousands of dollars to have these women. And the stories we heard were so sad. I mean, this woman who was trafficked, in some cases, again, the families actually sell them. I don't believe it was the case with this woman. She was trafficked. She arrived in this apartment in the big city in China, and she was immediately locked in a room. And the husband would rape her, would come in, and then she got pregnant.

41:18And then they took the baby as soon as she gave birth, took the baby away from her. And then she got another baby and then took the baby away from her. And then she was obviously depressed, so depressed, thinking of committing suicide, awful. And she, at that point, had given them two children. The grandparents were living in the house, too, and taking care of the kids. And she convinced them to let her go see her family in Vietnam, which she hadn't seen for like six years. And she did. And she had to make the decision. Do I go and see my parents in Vietnam and leave my kids behind? Or do I stay here as a kidnapped victim in a way that I can still have a relationship with her kids?

41:56Wow. And so it was awful because she chose to go back to Vietnam knowing full well that she will never see her kids again. And she was showing me photos and it was just heartbreaking. It was really horrible. Sorry to bring it down this way. No. I mean, it's just like we live in such we all live in such different worlds so often, you know, I mean, you can literally be falling asleep at night in a warm bed and you're OK. And then you somebody else somewhere else is getting on a train and having to never see their children again. You know, having to make that decision. Yeah. But how did it behoove the guy if he doesn't have a wife, if he needs to have a wife?

42:34Did he just want the woman only for sexual purposes? do some of them like in that situation in this situation yes and other situations they mostly it's because of having a woman but other situations it's also for companionship um although it's harder if you're detained and kidnapped it's harder for you to you know take the woman out for dinner i'd imagine um but there are some situations where the woman sees themselves trapped and then it's there's a lot of shame that goes with being in that situation where then you prefer not to go back home and you just accept your new reality which is awful yeah it's very depressing yeah it's like that story you would see sometimes in movies where someone would get kidnapped and then raped and then brought back home and then people would shun her because she had been raped yeah and it's like yeah and the same thing actually it reminds me a lot of the african immigration and even central american immigration but particularly african immigration where I've done many stories about kids.

43:34One was a soccer trafficking story where kids were promised by these fake agents that they would take them to Europe to play in these big clubs and then they'd get there and they'd sell their house, sell anything they have to pay the agent and then they'd get to Europe and they'd be abandoned, right? But at that point, they were so just embarrassed because they were sort of the hope for the whole family, right? This is the child that's going to bring us prosperity. And then they were just embarrassed so they never spoke to their families again and they would just live in misery on the streets of Europe.

44:03So that was a scam. They were taking people there. There was no soccer. There was no setup. People had paid money to be a part of this thing, this opportunity. They made it look great with videos and fanflets or whatever. And then there was nothing. There was nothing. But the shame that surrounds that. Yeah, how can I go home? I'm the one. I cost my family everything. Yeah, exactly. So then these stories aren't told and nobody knows that this is actually happening because in their minds the family is saying, oh, he must have made it really rich. He's not contacting the family anymore. The stories that they keep hearing is of success.

44:34The same happens in the, you know, immigration that we see in Central America to the United States or, you know, the people coming to the US, a lot of them, they are hearing the stories of success. And so that's, in many cases, what they're, they're not hearing the stories of desperation and how hard it is to get here. Yeah, they're just hearing the advertising, really, you know, or the positive advertising. Are there brokers that are brokering those women in those countries? Is it like a company that's like, okay, we need to try and get this many women a month? I'd love to know that. And then how often is this happening over there?

45:08It's really hard to get numbers. We spoke to organizations who are on the ground sort of taking care of the victims. Some of them managed to escape and come back. And they say it's in the thousands, but it's impossible to know exactly how many. The craziest part of it is because our hands were sort of tied behind our backs in terms of reporting, We had the government minder with us at all times, a police officer, like everything we did. We went out in the middle of the night to try to film behind their backs. It was it was really hard. But we actually were able to contact a group of local journalists who were actually doing their own investigation.

45:42And they were mainly Chinese and they were able to film undercover. So we saw them. They went and had meetings pretending to be buyers in northern Vietnam. and then they also went to some brothels in China where you are given, they showed us, it was like lists and lists with photos of girls, their bodies, you know, it's like modeling, advertising. Right, their height, their weight, their body. But it's for girls that are for sale. And so he was seeing like a whole catalog of beautiful girls. Some of them looked like they were 14 years old. and they're going through the catalog and then they can just point and say, I want this one.

46:24And then that person is delivered to you. It's crazy. And a lot of them are being held basically at these brothels on the border in China already where this guy also got access. So he went in, crazy video. He went in, it's a long corridor full of, a dark corridor full of rooms. And then the brothel woman, he told them that he was there to meet a wife. And the one woman opened the door, he goes in, he gets in and there's like three or four women in there and there's total darkness and he can't see a thing at all and he's hearing he they're communicating very low and in and talking to him and saying um what do you want what what sex do you want um let's do it because and he was like oh no because there's a journalist undercover journalist saying i don't want sex she's like please they'll beat us if you don't have sex with us and uh and and he she he had been locked inside at this point by the woman, the brothel owner on the outside.

47:19So he had to do it? No. And then he managed to figure out a way where he started knocking on the door and saying that he had to go, that something had happened and came up with an excuse to leave. But even him, and he's an undercover journalist that covers the worst of the worst crimes he was telling me. It was one of the most depressing and nerve-wracking things he's ever done in his life. And these three, four women holed up in there in total darkness and forced to have sex with men that come like this. and then a lot of them are sold to become brides as well. Yeah, it's dark. Is there regulation in those areas over that sort of thing?

47:52They say there is, but obviously what we found is that there isn't. And this is part of a new episode? Yeah, this is one of the episodes of this season. Yeah. How do you leave a place like that and not bring it with you, not feel like you have to go back and do something? What is that like? I think that's the hardest part. It's not so much about bringing this. A lot of people, you know, I get asked sometimes how do I not, why am I not depressed and, you know, at home locked on drugs because of all of what I've seen. It's not so much for me. It's not so much that. It's the fact that, you know, we live a little bit on somebody's nightmare for a day, you know, and then we have the privilege of coming back.

48:38you know we're almost like it you know feels like we're exploiting their nightmare because we want them to share their stories um yeah i can see how it could feel like that at times how do you manage that feeling i mean yeah how do you manage that i'd say that the way that i rationalize it i'm not patting myself on the back because i think journalists love to say that they have a very important job and i do think journalism is important but i i'm not the kind of journalist that goes around telling people, I've got the most important jobs. There are jobs that are more important. You don't see teachers going around saying their jobs are important.

49:16And I have no idea why journalism. Neither one of us is Lester Holt. You know what I'm saying? Let's be realistic. But I do think that the way I rationalize it, basically, is that putting the story out there and being able to gain access to these worlds and showing why this is happening, I'm hoping that then we are holding power accountable. We're telling those people in power that this is happening and trying to change the system. Because at the end of the day, for me, it's not so much that people are broken. It's that the systems are broken, the systems that allow these things to happen. You know, whether we talk about immigration or we've reported on fake pharmaceuticals and how the Mexican cartel and groups in India are making these really dangerous, deadly pharmaceuticals.

50:02that Americans, like 20 million Americans cannot afford medication, their own, that they need life-saving medication sometimes. And so they're having to resort to online pharmacies in India or going down to Mexico to these border pharmacies. And a lot of times that stuff is deadly and tainted with other drugs and other chemicals. And what does that tell me? It doesn't tell me, it tells me that people are exploiting a broken system and it's our responsibility and our government that has allowed this to happen. Why is it that 20 million Americans can't afford life stays at being treatment, right?

50:33What does it say about us more than what does it say about the guy in India who's making these drugs, you know? Yeah. It's, it's wild that, you know, most people are afraid to get in sick nowadays just because they're like, I don't know if I want to go through all the bulls, the stress of even trying to get better with this system. It's almost like it tries to kill you while you're just trying to get some basic medicine, you know? It's, um, it's heartbreaking, man. It's heartbreaking. Over your 20 years, you know, kind of investigating the dark arts, if you will, you know, have you noticed things getting, do you think, better?

51:09And I know that's a big kind of blanket term. Or have you noticed things getting not better? Not better. Not better? Not better. So most people don't know this, but 38 % of our global economy are these gray and black markets. It's what economists call the hidden third. Wait, what are you saying? That almost 38 % of the global economy are these black and gray markets. 38 % of the global economy, you have the GDP of Earth? So the drug trade alone is estimated at between$600 to$800 billion. That's more than many GDPs put together. Scams, last year alone, they went up, I think it was$12.5 billion were scammed from Americans last year alone.

51:55That industry has been growing. Every single year has been doubling and doubling. Well, let's look at this first one for a second. So when you say that drug trade. Yeah, the drug trade. What percentage of the global economy are gray or black markets? Black market, shadow economy, estimates commonly suggest that black market counts for around 22 to 23 percent of global GDP. In developed countries, the black market typically constitutes about 10 to 15 percent. Are you kidding me? This is just black markets. Gray markets are things that aren't necessarily illegal but are unregulated and untaxed. So things like selling fruit on the streets or clothes or things that aren't regulated or taxed.

52:32Okay. Do you think that that's a little bit more the gray market is more like somebody trying to make ends meet than it is somebody taking advantage of somebody? What do you want? I think a lot of it is just people trying to make ends meet. And a part of it is people trying to stay still on this side of the law. But that is not achievable for everybody. Not everybody can do that. So one of the first episodes we ever did for Traffic was about cocaine. And we went in Peru. We were in Colombia. And we basically saw what it means for a kilo of cocaine to go where it's made. We went to the jungles of Peru.

53:05We saw how it's being made in these big pits with the coca leaves. How does it start? Take me through it a little bit. Oh, it's fascinating. It's actually fascinating. I'll end. I want to hear about it. Yeah. You've got the jungles of Peru, the coca leaves. They harvest the leaves. And you can see fields and fields of coca leaves that have existed for decades in this area of Peru. It's the Vraim Valley of Peru. And it's sort of— Play some soft music, too, Nick, if you don't mind. Sorry. I've had a—enjoyed cocaine in my life. But no, okay, going in Peru. I've never actually tried it. Yeah, I was going to ask you that.

53:38I've been offered it so many times. I bet. By, like, the purest of cocaine traffickers. You've got to at least— Yeah. So this is then they dry the leaves and then they put them in a big pit. So we went in the middle of the night. We're going down this sort of trail in the middle of the night. It's super muddy. It's sort of rainforesty, raining all the time. And I'll never forget where it's dark and we're carrying all of us are carrying. We're like six of us carrying equipment, plus the guys that are taking us to the place where they're making cocaine. and uh my dp who's french uh he was uh with his very french accent complaining he's like oh i can't what do i do i can't and complaining that he's like we're slipping and sliding everywhere meanwhile holding these like very expensive cameras and canvas bags full of gear and we thought it was going to be you know like we'll be there in five minutes ten minutes and 45 minutes later we're still walking down this rainy path in the middle of the night with nothing no light at all you can see yeah we're such Americans like oh we'll just park and then walk right over there that's what we thought was gonna happen we'll get the closest parking and uh and meanwhile yeah and then uh there's no light and I I basically have as I have now the phone with my at the time was another photo of me and my son and this oh and they told us we can't use flashlights even though we had flashlights with us because they didn't want people around the valley to see this because what they were doing was they could get them killed And so I'm only using the light from the front of my phone to sort of just see where I was walking.

55:10You know, I'm covered in mud. We get there and there's this pit, enormous pit. It's like an Olympic-sized pool pit with all the drugs, all the cocaine leaves being mixed with products that then they once – it stays like this for days. And then they sort of bring it out into these buckets, gigantic blue buckets, and they mix it with everything from gasoline and dye and all these products that eventually get made into this powder. And so we are literally seeing the whole process. And as this is happening, we start hearing noises. Oh, yeah. And that's the moment that we knew. They were like, okay.

55:50So as long as it took us to come down that valley, it took us about half that time to go off because we were running out. Yeah, I even look at a bag of cocaine. I start hearing shit, you know? So I feel you there, definitely. Anyway, carry on. You could actually - Was there a gift shop? You could smell it. Oh, yeah. In the air, you could kind of smell it. You could smell the petrol. You could smell the whole thing. And a bunch of us were worried that we were going to get - I've been in fentanyl labs, and that's even worse because there you can actually feel your body starting to like warm up the like physical um we were in an enclosed fentanyl lab in sinaloa mexico where the chemists we're all we're actually using like hazmat suits and masks because we're an american crew meanwhile these guys have like you know like a bandana around their face and they're touching the powder and he's telling me i was like how do you know when it's ready and he's saying because i can feel my heart starts It's beating really fast, and that's when I know the fentanyl is ready.

56:46It's insane. You should watch that episode. Oh, that's crazy. Really crazy. And that was last season? That was actually season one. We did a first season at fentanyl. But then, just to finish the cocaine, because it's so fascinating. Yeah, for sure. How it gets out of this valley, this region. We then spent the night with these kids, 16, 17-year-old kids, who are backpacking and taking these 20, 30 pounds of cocaine or 20-something kilos of cocaine on their backs for days on end, for a whole week in the middle of, in, you know, really rough terrain, seeing some of their friends being killed in front of them by rival groups.

57:21One of the ones I interviewed, I will never forget this interview, it sort of... very much changed the show. this interview that I did with him. It was the second episode we ever did of Trafficked. And it was, I'm talking to this kid, and I'm asking, like, why do you do this? I mean, you've seen friends being killed. It's back-breaking work. You know, they get insects all over. They're sleeping out in the open for days. It's just horrible, terrible conditions. And he's saying, look, I've always wanted to go to college, and I want to be a dentist, and my family is super, super poor, and they're never going to be able to afford my education.

57:55and so this is the only job that's afforded to me. I do this once a month and I get X amount of money and I'm saving that money to one day become a dentist. I thought, and dentist is an interesting, why dentist, right? You hear a lawyer, you hear a doctor, you don't hear dentist. And he says, because there's a lot of ads for dentists in my town and they all show people with a big smile and I want to make people smile and I want to make them happy. And so it's stories like this, and I seriously started hearing more and more stories like this that I was like, okay, I think this is the message of the show.

58:22Yes, it's a dangerous world. We should be careful. where we should explain and shine a light in these underworlds. But ultimately, I think the message of the show is to show is that this could happen to any of us. Depending on where you were born, it's like the wheel of history turns and where and when you're born determines whether you get lifted or crushed by it, right? And that's the idea, I think, behind the show and so much of what I've learned. Got to let you know, today's episode is sponsored by Acorns. Acorns. Acorns is a financial wellness app. That's what it is. And it's, I think it's my favorite to be honest with you.

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1:02:23Hydration, baby. I'm quenched. Three times the electrolytes are the leading sports drink. Eight essential vitamins and nutrients, always non-GMO, vegan, gluten-free, dairy-free, and soy-free. And they also have sugar-free versions. Yep, they got it all. Savor the last bits of summer with Liquid IV. Tear, pour, live more. Go to liquidiv.com and get 20 % off your first order with code Theo at checkout. That's 20 % off your first order with the code T-H-E-O at liquidiv.com. I think you're right. I think, you know, it's like you could look at it as like X, like, uh, what's it called when you take advantage of something?

1:03:08exploiting right but i think you have to shine a light on something people can't even see it you know so i don't think it would be if people like you're exploiting i'm like good someone has to go exploit these things just to give us an idea i think it's where even when i was a child it's like or a teenager it's where you got ideas like you would see certain like um documentaries or things that you would and would make you want to join like amnesty international or different groups that like could have a voice that made you ever even think about having a voice you know so yeah I think that the positive far outweighs the risk of any negative and you must have decided that a long time ago or you wouldn't have kept going yeah I think so yeah I like to think that there's that there's some good that is being done in just raising awareness to all of this but it does feel bad sometimes it just yeah it feels wrong like it's a day trip in somebody's nightmare essentially it would be so hard to leave have you ever kept in contact with people from some of these experiences?

1:04:05So many of them. Yeah, I've kept in contact with so many. Yeah. You know, one of the first stories I ever did for an American organization, a media company, it was for Current TV. Do you remember Al Gore's TV station? Oh, yeah, I remember Current TV. Oh, my God, dude. I was with my buddy Ezra yesterday, and he used to, Ezra Cooperstein? Yeah, of course. Of course. No way. Of course I know Ezra, yeah. Bring up Ezra, man. I love Ezra. Oh, you know Ezra from the podcasting world, of course. Ezra and I just went to, Ezra's great. I'm working with him right now. Are you really? I'm starting my own podcast.

1:04:38Are you? The Hidden Third. Congratulations. Yeah, it's with Ezra. I love Ezra. He's got a big heart. He's a neat guy. Oh, he's great. He's awesome. Yeah, I've known him since the Current TV days. That's so funny. I didn't know until yesterday that he'd ever worked at Current TV. Yeah. We were in San Francisco. Did you know it? For an interview and we didn't know. He just said, you know, I used to live around here. I used to work with Al Gore. I was like, oh, cool. Do you remember that company at all, though? I remember hearing about Current TV. Do you remember it, Nick? Oh, Nick, just say yes.

1:05:08I remember it. What do you remember about it, Zach? Thanks, Zach. I was kind of an outlier. I was really tapped into political stuff, so I was paying attention. I was at like 13 paying attention to that. Anyway, it was great. It was basically, it was a little bit of YouTube before YouTube. It was like, the idea was that cameras were getting so cheap and easy to use that they were going to empower young people to get out there and film and edit. So essentially, they gave me, they offered me money to go around the world with my husband at the time when we started with my boyfriend became my husband and we would travel and did, you know, the war in Sri Lanka, the Lebanese-Ezbollah war, that's actually was our honeymoon was covering that war.

1:05:48So we, I know. So we travel all around the world doing these amazing stories together. And we do everything we'd film, we'd edit, we the whole package and then just deliver it to Current TV. And they'd offer, they'd give us X amount of money per minute of product of TV delivered. And the first story I ever did for Current TV, when I was still trying to like convince them to hire me, was a story about the death train. I'm sure you've heard of it. It's the train. In Indonesia, you mean? No, it was in Mexico. So it's the train that carries undocumented immigrants from southern Mexico to northern Mexico to the border with the United States.

1:06:22So it used to be, yeah, exactly. So it's a cargo plane. It's not Amtrak is it? No, it's just a cargo train that carries everything from... Oh, okay. So it brings all kinds of stuff. Oh, yeah. Is this the train that every couple of years is on the political kickball that kick this around like they're coming back or whatever? Yeah, it's not... It doesn't operate this way anymore, thank God, because it actually is responsible for lots of deaths and amputations. But we were there at the peak of when this was operating. And it was like that. You see the hundreds of people on the... Just packed on top?

1:06:52They were packed on top with no safety measures. Obviously, they're on top of a cargo. Sometimes they were holding on to the sides of it, and they would go for days and days on end just to get to this northern border where they could cross into the United States in the sun. And one of the kids we met when we first got to this town, Tapachula, which is right on the border with Mexico and Guatemala, was a kid who was in a clinic, and he had lost an arm. He'd been amputated, lost an arm to the train. He tried the train. He fell off the train. It went right over his arm. He lost his arm. three days later we are taking we have convinced the guy that sort of runs the train this part of the train we have the railroad we convinced him to let us go me and my then boyfriend who became my husband darren to get on top of the train and do a certain amount um of time i think we did like almost a day or half a day or something on the train so we could see just how difficult and dangerous it is and we could film with the characters we were following because we were following a group of women from Guatemala that left their homeland to try and reach the U.S.

1:07:56and provide a better life for their families. And we're on top of the train. No, and we're heading towards the train to get on top of the train. And who do we see but Guillermo, the guy, the kid, Guatemalan kid who had lost his arm, who's going to try that journey again. And there he was. And we then introduced him to Maria, who was the woman we were filming. And they traveled the whole way together. and eventually Guillermo actually didn't make it across one more time. He was detained on the border and two years later and we kept in touch and two years later he was still texting me and saying that he was still trying to make it across.

1:08:33So yeah, I stay in touch with a lot of these people that I report on. Gosh. Yeah. What inside of you makes it be able to handle this type of stuff? Have you thought about that over the years? Because I think that it's interesting, you know, like sometimes even as viewers of things it's hard for us to take on. And it's hard to make it through certain moments of your stories to listen, even compassionately. It's tough. It's tough on our hearts. What do you think that gives you that ability or resilience or, I don't know. Coldness? Yeah. Is that what you're trying to say? No, I wasn't really. No, I don't think it is a coldness.

1:09:09No, it's not a coldness. I don't think it's a coldness either. I think it's a couple of things. I think it's. Like I'm genuinely like, yeah, how were you able to do it, right? And do you think that there's because some people we have to hear about things. So like some people have to have a gift. Like if you told the messenger something and he couldn't hear it and his heart stopped, then no one would get the message. Right. So there has to be a reason that the messenger's heart is built a certain way. So I think that's what I'm asking. Yeah, I like that. I think that a few things. I think curiosity.

1:09:38I've always been incredibly curious. You know, I decided I wanted to be a journalist when I was 12 years old, mainly because I'd watched anchors on television talking about the whole world. And I was like, these are the most intelligent people. You know, I didn't know they were reading from teleprompters. I just thought their ability of retaining information was out of this world. I was like, OK, that's what I want to do. I want to retain this amount of information as well. So I think I've always been curious and wanted to know about the world. I've always loved traveling. I've always felt comfortable.

1:10:04I think part of growing up in Portugal, a small country, loving to travel and go out, I think very much explorer blood. You know, we have a whole history, a big history in Portugal with the explorers exploring the world. And I think that's very much in my veins and my blood. I think I'm very I don't think my parents were never worried or were scared of the world around me. They were never the kind of parents that would say, don't do this because it's dangerous. They weren't helicopter parents. They never were. And I think that just allowed me to have a look around the world and not see danger and look around the world and see opportunity and excitement.

1:10:41I think that's a big thing. I've tried to raise my son the same way. you know, because there are those parents that everything, oh, don't watch out, don't go, don't climb that tree, don't watch out for those steps and everything. And I think you're passing on that sort of anxiety to your kids. So I, my parents were never like that. You know, I moved, I moved to the West to study, but then I moved to the Middle East. The more in Iraq was happening, I moved to the Middle East and I started my career doing this crazy job. And never once have they told me, be careful. Or of course they worry about me and they love me, I hope, but they don't, They're not, they won't never tell me not to do it.

1:11:17They support me and trust me, I think, which is very important. And then I think I'm really good at compartmentalizing things in my life in general. I can be with you right now and really enjoy this experience. I mean, maybe this is not a good example because we haven't. But I can be with my friends in Portugal that I love and adore and have been my friend since I was five years old. And I love every second. And I think I'm going to die when I leave them. And then I'm somewhere else and I am there. And you're there. You know, and I'm there. And I think that's helped me in the work that I do. Yeah.

1:11:55I think you would have to be able to do those things. That's pretty fascinating. What a neat. Yeah. What a neat ensemble of life. You've got new experience. I'm very lucky. you have an episode in traffic this season about rehab scams how did you get into that and what did you learn I've been covering the opiate crisis for a long time and the drug business as well and just seeing talking to people that have gone to rehab as well and lots of times I heard horror stories and so this season we decided to really try to investigate what was happening and we started our reporting in Arizona where basically there are all these sort of rehab clinics that are there to exploit Native Americans, mainly Native Americans, because I know it's really horrible.

1:12:47Native Americans get access to health care much easier than the non-Native Americans in the state. It was something that started during COVID where you can just basically call the health department and say, you know, this is my name, this is my Native American ID number, and they will give you insurance just like that. It was to make it easier for them. But what has happened because of it is that now they're seen as targets, as prizes for these black market rehab operators that set up these clinics. They basically go to reservations. It's insane. They go around these reservations convincing people that have problems with drugs or alcohol to come into their vans.

1:13:35It's these white vans. And so it's a little... I've heard about the white vans for many years and you always think it's sort of a myth, right? But it turns out that actually in Arizona, it's not a myth. Well, it's a very rehab thing too, the white van. Like usually if there's a detox center or if there's a halfway house, they usually come in a white van. So it's very typical to see that in that community. Right, so that's exactly it. So they go in these white vans, they convince people. Sometimes they tell them, we're just gonna go for a ride. This is what I heard. But the majority of times they tell them, look, we're going to offer you free treatment, free housing, free food.

1:14:05Just come with us. And then they place them in these houses, but they don't act. They offer them free housing, but they don't actually offer them any treatment. Or if they do, it's shit treatment. And they're charging insurance insane amounts of money for bogus treatment. And a lot of times these are desperate people that really do need that treatment. And instead, you know, they're being lied to and exploited and just horrible, horrible conditions. The state, I think it was$3 billion or something. Don't quote me because I can't remember exactly. But it was billions of dollars that the state of Arizona lost to these rehab scams in the last few years alone.

1:14:40Why would the people stay there, I guess would be my question. Because they had – a lot of times they were actually given drugs. And this is happening after Arizona we came to California as well where they're exploiting not only Native Americans but anyone, people from all walks of life. And they're actually going to states like Alaska and Oklahoma, all around the country and bringing people to these rehab scams facilities in California. This is where multiple state sources and news outlets have reported that the cost of fraudulent billing and scams involving rehab and sober living facilities has totaled approximately$2.8 billion for the state of Arizona.

1:15:15That's unbelievable. Yeah, that's 2.8. The scams primarily exploited loopholes in Arizona Medicaid system, especially the American Indian Health Program, billing for services that were often never provided or for patients who were not even in the facilities. Were the patients also part of the scam? So a lot of times they're actually given alcohol and drugs to stay there. Or a lot of times these are people whose families they've suffered from addiction. The families might not want them or they don't have means to go back and they decide to stay because here they have a free house, free meals, and sometimes even free drugs and alcohol.

1:15:46So they stay. But what they don't know or what they you know, what is happening behind that sometimes they don't know is that they are being there sort of a prize. They're they're being exploited and they're making millions of dollars off the fact of having them in these facilities. And this is happening again in California as well. Did you find out who are the solicitors of this? Yeah. So solicitor is the right word. Yeah. Or the owners of these. Yeah. Who is the proprietors of this? Yeah. We did. We actually interviewed. I mean, in Arizona, when they figured out that the state started cracking down on these rehab facilities, they closed hundreds and hundreds of these clinics that they realized were pure Medicaid scams.

1:16:24And a few of them were still operating. One, which was sort of the bad one that we kept on hearing about, was still operating. So we showed up at a Ramada Inn, like a decommissioned Ramada Inn. Oh, yeah. Been there. Yeah. Decommissioned. And where hundreds of people were being held or not held, but they were housed. And we were told that that place, the Arizona, the government, Department of Health of Arizona, had told them, had sent them a cease and desist. And I told them they should not, they could not operate because they were running a scam, a Medicaid scam. And meanwhile, a few months later, we show up and we're outside with our cameras in hiding in our own vans.

1:17:01and we see white van after white van in the front with people being taken into the vans and then being driven to this treatment center where then, that afternoon, I was able to talk to somebody who went into the treatment center. I saw that a bunch of people were leaving the motel and I just went up to one, started talking to him and he said, yeah, I mean, it was hundreds of people inside this sort of classroom and no one is actually getting treatment, but they're charging, you know, sometimes up to like$10 ,000 a person for treatment that they're not receiving and they desperately need. And that$10 ,000 goes straight into the pockets of these owners.

1:17:36CEO of Tempe Rehab absolutely denies allegations of Medi-Cal fraud, right? So this is a place that these are... This is the one that was running the facility from that decommissioned. These are accusations. I want to let you know that's allegedly... We finally caught up with Newfoundland's owner to see what he had to say while at the Arizona Office of Administrative Hearings. We interviewed him, Dennis Artelis. And he denied that his facility was operating the day that we saw all those vans full of people taking people. We had recorded evidence of this, and he denied it. Okay, so we denied that it was operating.

1:18:09That it was operating. You're saying you have evidence that it was operating. That's right. I mean, we saw it. We filmed it. Yeah. That's an amazing... Dini Sarteles? Yeah. He's Latino or no? He's Latino? Maybe. I can't remember exactly. I know that we spoke to his sister-in-law, who was working. She was the one responsible for the billing in his company, and she basically became a whistleblower and told us everything, how he was double billing for people, how he was billing for people that weren't even there. So he was making$850 million, or his company facility, $850 million a month. She showed us the billing.

1:18:49That's disgusting. Show him another picture of him. Is it the only photo of him you can get? Yeah, he's quite. He doesn't like the limelight. Of course he doesn't. That's why I want to make sure we get a good one of him. because the problem with is a lot of criminals they don't get ever get shown and so people don't know who they are we have a guy who allegedly stole a bunch of money from us a few years ago what was that guy's name colin thompson colin thompson i'm gonna put a picture of him up right now just to remind everybody that he's never uh what did he do he um got paid from advertisers and never paid uh our podcast and others oh no there he is right there well missing defrauded that I know of me and my friends was up to like$4 million.

1:19:30No way. What is he doing right now? Do you know? I'm not sure, but I'm glad that I don't have to be involved with him anymore. Did you know him personally? Yeah, I thought I did. I thought I did, but he just he was, according to me, and this is just allegedly, the guy was a complete thief piece of shit. But I just heard, I'm not saying I heard, the only reason I know that is because I said it. I'm not saying anybody else has ever said that wow hiding his picture from the internet so you know he must have himself scrubbed off the internet just zoom in on his face a little bit i just want to get a gander at him there's a video too there is i'm being interviewed yep that's the scary thing about the world and i think that one of the tough things is who do you feel like should come like we we find so many dark circles and like pools of existence right and um because it's weird as a human you start to think okay well i'm part of a neighborhood, my neighborhood helper, a family, right?

1:20:24Or a government, right? Or a country. You think these things, what have you surmised over time? What's going to come to our rescue? Do we need faith? Do we need teamwork? Is it all different for everything? What do you think? I think we need a government that works, which is all these people are doing, they're exploiting broken systems. So we, for this story, we interviewed the investigator, the fraud investigator for the Department of Health, California's Department of Health. And he was saying how there are thousands of these rehab clinics in California, and he estimated about 10 % of them are fraudulent.

1:21:02And so my question, that made me angry. I mean, I'm angry for these guys who exploit this system and who are basically, you know, exploiting the most vulnerable people out there, but I'm mostly angry for our government. You know, these are the people that are responsible to make sure that those people aren't victimized again. Yeah. And who are making sure that these people are getting the treatment that they need. And that is just not happening. So I mean, I told him, like, I'm, I'm angry at them, but I'm mainly angry at not you personally, the fraud investigator, but at the government and the department that you work for.

1:21:35And why isn't that more hasn't been done to prevent this from happening? So I think it's the It's the systems. And what did he say? He says he understands that. Right. And he wishes they had more resources. Nowadays, you can, and he told me, like you are found with a kilo of cocaine, you go to prison. You are found making millions of dollars on the back of vulnerable people, telling them or telling the government, telling the insurance company that you're providing treatment they are not providing. You don't do a day in jail. And so they're just doing, you know, exploiting a broken system is what I keep saying.

1:22:10I know. And that's what I think is the biggest realization, I think especially in the past year or two, is that it doesn't feel like our government's here to help us anymore. And that gets kind of scary because then it almost feels like it's up to us. But then it also feels kind of inspiring because the truth is that it's always kind of been up to us. But at least we still hopefully have ourselves to count on. I'm curious about, kind of pivoting for a second, I'm curious about like who will, what type of people will be on your podcast? That'd be so fascinating. I, I, mainly I want people who have some sort of understanding or have experienced, um, the life of crime, which is not necessarily you, but I think you offer other, um, interesting, uh, knowledge.

1:22:55Um, I mean, and you've, you've talked a lot about your past addiction. I've been involved in illegal drug use. I've been involved in like sex hiring prostitutes or paying stripper that type of stuff I don't know if that's I mean everybody wanted to do it or everybody was having a good time I think yes everybody's having a good time but I'm trying to think of what other crime I've done I mean I hit a guy with a vehicle once he's fine he's fine it wasn't on purpose? it was on purpose? no no no I know. Yeah. So it was accidental non-homicide or whatever it's called. I'll give you. I'll give you. He wasn't that great before I hit him.

1:23:36I'll be honest with you. And he was stoned. It was after a concert and he just. But he's fine. He's doing great. Still text. Seems good. Good. Good. Hope you're doing good, Henry. Anyway, let's keep it going here. What were you going to say? But I'll give you a truth test after and you can tell me all the illegal things you've done and I'll say. No, I think that's all of them. I think that's all of them. That's pretty good. As in not a lot. I think we'll have a lot of people who are still, you know, because I've reported on this for so many years, I have a Rolodex of really interesting contacts.

1:24:12Yeah. I think a lot of the people that will come on the podcast will still be wearing a mask so that they can talk freely about what they do. But for me, it's another avenue in another format to get people into this, you know, again, the hidden third of the world that no one knows much about. Yeah. That's the idea. Oh, it's cool. Well, especially since so much of the – I mean that black and gray market you said, that's 22 percent of American GDP? That's just the black market and I think the gray market is where it gets more. But I can't – was it just American GDP? I know that drugs alone in America alone is$150 billion a year and that's just drugs.

1:24:52And does that include just people sell like dealers on the streets? When you say the black market, is that like a website or is that like the dark web? No, no, no. By black market, I mean it's a market. So it's the market for illegal drugs in the United States. Can you open that up, Nick? Thank you. Yeah, that's the one. Yeah, estimates commonly suggest that the black market counts around 22 % to 23 % of global GDP. And the gray market income is about 8 % of the global market. And look at$10 trillion. The total global market is estimated with it. Total black market. Only rivaled by the GDP of the United States.

1:25:22Wow. $10 trillion, the total black? Yeah. market is asking me to work for 10 trade make one of the world's largest economic forces wow yeah it's it's crazy and you we have whole organizations channels devoted to analyzing every up and down of the legal economy yet there's nothing out there if you do you know even do searches there's like no one we are one of the only outlets out there that is actually you know gaining access to these worlds investigating showing people you know peek behind the curtain of how they operate and yeah So that's where the idea of the podcast came. I have all these contacts and all this knowledge.

1:26:00Yeah, well, it's just fascinating to think. Say if you look out into the world, say you're standing on a mountain looking down at the world. If you think that 20 % of it is a black market, that's unbelievable because it starts to make you think, well, this – is there a baby in that baby carriage? What's going on here? Who's moving that? Is it what's really in that truck that's going down the street? Right, yeah. And do you think those are fear numbers? Do you think that that's real? Oh, that's real. Oh, I think that was probably underestimated, actually. I think absolutely that's real. I mean, I've seen it all around.

1:26:31I mean, like I said, it's your neighbor. It's happening down the street. So many of the work and the filming that we do actually happens in the places that you least expect in broad daylight, in like, you know, it's not the dark tunnels. It's like in open lit warehouses and, you know, the neighbor's house in the backyard. one of those stories we did for another season was ghost guns do you know about ghost guns? ghost guns I thought you said ghost guns which is a crazy term I thought it was British people spiritual British or whatever anyway sorry to say that word but I thought that what is she saying?

1:27:09ghost guns? do you know by the way when I moved to the US I spent some time in the UK and they use the word guns a lot but they don't it's a whole new level in the US But they use it all the time. Yeah, they use it all the time. So when I first moved here, one of the things that I used to say is that the rule number one, which I learned in the UK by an English journalist who was my boss at the time. And he taught me a lesson in journalism, which is rule number one in journalism is you don't work with cunts. And so I went around telling people this all the time and not realizing that people were like shocked.

1:27:41All the lesbians are like, whoa, hold on. And here I am repeating it. Oh, I remember I was in London and the guy's like, it was some guy with his kids. He's like, yeah, he's in my two cunts right here. And I'm like, no, this is, what are we talking? This is fucking, somebody needs to do an expose on this family. Okay. What were we just talking about? Oh, we are going back. Oh, so the podcast. So that's what it's going to be is a lot of that. Well, especially since it's such a big part of the world, I think it is fascinating. I think it is fascinating to see also who's gotten busted for things when really those things were out of necessity.

1:28:15And though they were crimes, they were probably like more like white, like, you know, nonviolent crimes, you know. And what is that like? Right. And the choices people had to make. That's all pretty fascinating. Oh, good. I'm happy you think that. She just brought up ghost guns. Oh, yeah. Oh, ghost guns. That was it. Yeah. Ghost guns. That's what you talked about. Real fast. I'll just explain. So ghost guns are readily available or, you know, firearms that you can assemble with over-the-counter components or 3D printed parts or all of them together. They don't have a serialized number. They don't have a serial number, which is the ID of any gun.

1:28:51And sometimes they have fake serial numbers. In our cartels USA, we interviewed a guy who basically goes around the country selling guns to the cartel and to, you know, gangs and whatnot. And he makes his guns himself. They're ghost guns. and he actually prints fake serial numbers on the guns to make them look more legit. So if you're stopped, you have a license to own a gun, you have a gun, you show a serial number. At first glance, that's totally legal. But if you investigate further and you actually put the number of the serial gun in the system, you realize that actually that is a ghost gun and it's not legal.

1:29:25So somebody's just making them. So somebody's making them and they're making them one of the other places I film. I'm making it seem like LA is the center of everything. It really isn't. This is happening all around the country. But we actually filmed in a guy's backyard in L.A. where these guys had an operation. They were making ghost guns. They were assembling them with 3D printed parts and parts that they bought online. They were assembling these AR-15s and these pistols. And then we saw, we were there when a buyer came. And the guy comes and we had told him that we were filming. And he was okay with wearing a mask and being filmed making that purchase.

1:30:02And he's a gang member. and he comes in and he buys a gun and then he gets mad at our cameraman for some reason because he thinks our cameraman is smirking. He's like filming like this, you know, making a face and he thinks he's smirking. Oh yeah, like that. You have to do that. And he starts being like, what the fuck are you smiling? Are you fucking making fun of me and threatening him? And he had just purchased this gun and things turned really dangerous, really fast and sketchy. And then we found out the day after that he went that day and he shot a woman with that same gun that he had just purchased in that backyard.

1:30:36So this to say that it's everywhere. It's like that black market, these illegal markets, whether it's guns or drugs or scams or whatnot, they're all around us, yeah. Well, especially when you have people 3D printing guns. It's like Legos of guns now. It's like, oh, look, I got this cool new Lego kit. I'm building an AR or whatever. It's like, what is happening? Yeah, what is happening? Yeah. It's craziness. you have one part I want to ask about before you leave about militias in this new season I would like to be part of a militia one day so I want to say that out loud and and I think because I I believe I'm I'm like the revolution guy I want there to be a revolution I want to be like on a horse you know charge you know I want to be like on a horseback or even a pony I'll get on a pony it'll be fucking weird and people are like dude hurry the fuck up I'm like dude it's this fucking small horse and but i do want to be part of the revolution right i want to at least try and charge the hill before we all get gunned down by palantir allegedly allegedly you have to go back in time a little bit right but i'm not living in the right time i don't know actually it might be yes that's what i'm saying so what do you find out about militias are they good or bad i've we don't go into a story thinking about whether they're good or bad however i would say that there has been a growth of militias in the United States, that it can be dangerous, that we are at a time in which we're more divided and torn apart than ever.

1:32:06We are seeing militias grow on both sides of the spectrum. So not only right wing militias, but left wing militias too. And they're both in answer to the other side, right? So we filmed with a group called Patriots for America, who are operating on the border. And basically what they are seeing is an invasion of immigrants into America and they decided they were going to take matters into their own hands. They train, they use combat gear, they use, you know, night vision, like top of the line, this is it, top of the line combat gear and they go out there patrolling the border. Yep, we are a diverse community of patriots that love our country, okay?

1:32:42Yeah. So what they say they're doing is they're just patrolling, although they have been accused of actually detaining one of the migrants. I asked them that, they say they don't touch the migrants ever. They just patrol and they're sort of a, what do you call it? A deterring force to prevent migrants from coming. What is interesting is that they're also operating. We saw it. They told us that they have support of a lot of sheriff's departments in the area. And they're also helping border patrol. We saw we were there the day we filmed. We filmed them calling border patrol because they had seen some migrants crossing.

1:33:20We didn't see the migrants, but they did. and they called Border Patrol and the Border Patrol came and they hitched a ride with Border Patrol. We filmed behind as they were going to show where the migrants were crossing into the United States. They sound awesome to me, to be honest. Okay, to you they do. That part. It causes all sorts of problems. So actually, a well-regulated militia, which is in fact in our constitution, is allowed. What is not allowed is unregulated militias acting and pretending as if you are law enforcement. Okay. dressing up, training for combats, all that is actually not legal.

1:33:57And what we decided is, you know, Sam Hall, who's the leader of this militia, we spent a night with him and seeing his work. And, you know, I'm not saying that what they're trying to accomplish, you know, they believe the country is being invaded. They decided that they wanted to do. I'm a strong believer our government is broken, particularly when it comes to immigration policy. But I'm a strong believer in holding our country accountable. It's very much part of the work that I do instead of arming myself and training for war and going down there. Yeah, I agree with that. To scare girls, little girls and kids and women.

1:34:30I agree with that. I think that is horrible. Having filmed and spent time with some of these migrants who are crossing the border, who are victims many times of extortion, of rape, you know, little kids who are scared to death. And then they come across these heavily armed, uniformed guys that they think are Border Patrol that are a deterring factor and therefore probably, you know, whatever they do, even if they don't talk, it's scary. Right. And so I don't personally think that's the way to go. Right. I think you vote. I think you go to the ballot. You get involved politically. And if you really want to change, you try to change it that way.

1:35:07Has it worked? No. But is that the solution? It's not. Right. I agree. It's not. I think there is part of this. Right. I agree. It's like somebody that's coming over here that's looking for a better life that wants something different. I think the border system, they left it open and broken on purpose, I think, to create a lot almost because it inspires people who believe in America. Maybe these people's parents died protecting their country. Right. And now they're thinking, well, they're having people come across the border. And a lot of them weren't even Latinos. A lot of them were were bad actors.

1:35:42A lot of them were people that came here with ill intent. Right. I think only 40 percent were Latinos that came across the border during like this great migration that's happened during like the Biden administration. Right. Yeah. And then also you're like, yeah, it could. It's like. but that doesn't mean that they're bad people no not at all it doesn't but at all i think it's really tough though if you're like if you were a person who maybe your dad served in the military and then you start to think our government doesn't care about us anymore uh maybe some maybe a someone who came across the border raped somebody in your town or did something bad now you're all you care about is protecting your own.

1:36:25So it's like, I can just see how people can start to do this sort of thing, right? And I don't know, and I think in the end, to me, it's all our government's fault. I think they want the words, they want the videos of the bull, they want all the fucking fighting so they can keep us arguing about this shit. So they can keep getting votes. We're going to do it this year. They've never done it. They've never figured it out. You know? I think immigration – Anyway, not to get animated. No, I get very animated about this topic. It's heartbreaking. It's fucked up. And they're the ones letting us all battle this.

1:37:01There's a new movie called Eddington, and it's really cool. It's like this sheriff in this town, and he – during the COVID, during COVID, and he has to – and BLM and everything. He has to deal with all this stuff, and he's the sheriff. So he's like the authority figure, and it's watching him lose authority over himself as it all falls apart. Anyway. I get very animated. I mean, particularly with what's happening, I don't tend to become political or to talk politics. Yeah, me either, kind of. It feels like it's just a joint thing. Do you feel like it is, or what do you think? I do. I am not happy, obviously.

1:37:33I'm incredibly just saddened by what's happening in our city right now. I, having spent many years— In Los Angeles, you mean? Yes. Sorry, in Los Angeles. My city, sorry. Having spent many years reporting on immigration, are there criminals who come across? Absolutely. Are there people carrying drugs? Absolutely. are the vast majority of people coming because they are under, you know, there's violence in their hometowns. They're in desperate situations. Nobody would be making that very, you know, very few people. I've done that journey, parts of that journey, you know, whether it's the death train or the Darien Gap.

1:38:07I've, you know, I've been on the border right at the beginning of the Darien Gap, which is the jungle that, you know, a lot of people die trying to make it. And I've seen what it takes. And I've spoken to these people and a lot of them are mothers and nothing moves a mother more than trying to provide a better life for their children. If their children are endangered, if they know that their kids can go out on the streets and be co-opted or killed by gangs. And if they're not killed, if they're not joining the gangs, I would do anything. Exactly. I have a child myself and I would do anything. And a lot of the stories that I hear again and again, they're not lies.

1:38:42They're real stories of human beings that are living under horrible situations, are trying to do everything for a better life for themselves and their kids. So I think when we start going out on the streets of L.A. in these raids, and, you know, I know personally people have been affected by this, who refuse, you know, people have lived there for decades and are not, are afraid to leave their house. Yes, they weren't born in the United States. Some of them came here when they were still kids. Some of them came when they were adults, but have spent the last 20, 30 years living, paying taxes, you know, working very hard many hours a day and have done nothing wrong.

1:39:17Yeah. And being treated the way they're treated, being handcuffed, windows smashed in cars to remove this mother with the kid watching. These are traumatizing events. Whatever happens to that adult person, these are this is traumatizing for herself, for the kids that are watching. It's, you know, taking away the father of these military members. These are horrible. it's beneath us. It's just beneath us. I think one of the lessons that I've been taught when I was growing up is you should be judged by the way you treat the people that have less power than you do and not by the way you treat those above you, right?

1:39:53Yep, and I think we can put that directly onto that's a great statement. You should be judged by the people who have less power than you do. And that's how you treat them. And that's our government. To me, I I don't think this is a conspiracy theory. I believe that they knew they wanted all this. They want because they want this constant battle. They want to be able to have something to kickball back and forth. We'll do it. They'll fix it. It's their fault. Because if they fix it, then they can't blame it on the other person. And that's the problem, I think, with a lot of things in this country.

1:40:27And I agree. It's like it's heartbreaking to see families separated like that. And it makes you question like, well, why do I get to be here? You know, I was just born here, you know. And then you look at the Native Americans like, well, fucking they didn't. They got. Exactly. And then who did they take it from? Aliens or somebody. I don't know how far back it goes, you know, or mollusks or whatever. But for me, it makes me certainly question. Well, what, you know, to say this is mine, you know. But at the same time, there has to be like organized bookkeeping of inventory. and I don't mean I mean all of us is inventory to to make it so that everything can make sense and we could do all that if we want I believe that they don't want to do it at the top and I also think that I think that we're about to enter a surveillance state right I was talking with um Sam Altman out of the AI guy and I don't know if he knows or not but he believes that we'll be under surveillance will be a big part of things in the next few years that's so scary but I believe why a lot of this is happening now and it's painful to see it happen um is because it's all going to be under surveillance soon so you couldn't even be someone who's here that's undocumented right they have to figure out all the paperwork now like they have to figure out what's in the shelves of our what's on the human shelves of our country so i believe we're headed there quick and so that's why i think some of this is all happening now because in two years if you even walked out of your house, if you even showed up in a parking lot, you were here like undocumented, right?

1:42:02Or you're overstaying a visa. If you showed up in a parking lot, there will be like it is in London. They will have like cameras and it will, you will know pretty quickly this person isn't, you know? So I think that that's where we're headed and that's why that's happening. Right. And it is heartbreaking though. I think it's a political tool. I do too. And that's the fucking sickest thing. It's like we all humans, we're down here having this to have like, you know, be scared scared for our neighbors, scared for ourselves. And those people are probably, they, you know, they're getting on horseback.

1:42:31What the fuck are they? You know, but they're, you know, they've sold a bill of goods that this is their, you know, it's like, it's crazy. And you start to wonder who's watching all this. Are we all just being live stream somewhere? Yeah. You know, I did a story once about the flat earthers and of course, crazy movement. Obviously I don't believe in any of it, but one of their core beliefs, again, And I do not believe it's not true. The earth is not flat. But one of their core beliefs is that we are being, it's like the Truman Show. We're being watched and there is somebody kind of watching. Well, it does feel like it sometimes, though, when you start to spin out a little bit.

1:43:08Yeah, it's not. Let's say it again. Flat earth. The earth is not flat. So they don't think there's any credence for me bringing it up. No, look. Nobody's accusing you of that. It just feels like we're all basically being, we're pawns in the system, right? It does start to feel like that. Yeah. And not in a way, not in a conspiracy. In my case, I don't think of it as a conspiracy. I think it's like they have the power as a president to fix certain things. And the reason why certain things are not being fixed is because it benefits them not to fix them. You know, I talk about this all the time. When 9-11 happened, 3 ,000 people died on 9-11.

1:43:45We reorganized the government. We spent trillions of dollars trying to make us safer. One million people have died with the drug war or because of the opiate crisis in the last 25 years. One million people. 3 ,000 people die a week, which is what died in 9-11. 3 ,000 every week from drug and alcohol. And our government still hasn't figured out a way to create a better solution to prevent this from happening. That makes no sense to me. They don't want to. And, yeah, it's not. You have to believe that at a certain point, huh? At a certain point, you just think, like, what's happening? Like, wake up.

1:44:19This, you know, Americans are suffering. And I think in many ways, the suffering, you know, drug addiction, unemployment, poverty, you know, many people, we used to be able to afford a house, be able to get married, things that people aren't allowed or can't make happen. One parent used to be able to work. Right. And you have a president who points the finger, presidents and people who point politicians who point the finger at immigrants as being the cause of all evil. Everything that's bad in your life right now is because of this group of people. Yeah. And it's much easier, right? It's easier to blame one group of people than it is to actually fix the things that are wrong.

1:44:56Because then you can just say, this is it. Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree with that. I think I think we're in a spot right now where there's a lot of exposing of like, I think people are seeing the lies. They're seeing, oh, this is not you don't care anymore. You're not you guys aren't voting on it. No, it's all a charade. It's all nothing. You guys are all compromised. I'm working with this Democratic congressman right now his name is Ro Khanna and he is the congressman for Silicon Valley and we're working on building an app so an app where you can put in all your beliefs into it and you can put in I don't want this person accepting money from these lobbies or I don't want them associated with this and then you can you can say tell me who I should vote for based on these things so then people will be armed when they go it's like oh this is exactly who you should vote for if these are the things you want so that way it's because they trick you with all this shit you know so i don't know i think that's why when i say militia i'm like i don't know what i'm just glad that militias are at least practicing because there needs to be a revolution i don't know what it is i don't think it's some guy riding into the capital with a fucking wearing horns or something but i think it's something and I don't know what it is, you know?

1:46:09Right. In my mind, it's not so much. I mean, we haven't found a better system than democracy. Right. What is a revolution going to bring us a different system? Unfortunately, democracy is it. Right. You know, all we would do is go to another democracy or worse, you know, a system that's not democracy, in which case we're totally fucked. So if democracy is the best system and it is about voting, it's, I think, just about getting more engaged. I like I I kick myself every election that I don't get more engaged. And, you know, I'm trying to do work that is raising awareness to issues and sort of shining a light on systems that are broken.

1:46:43But at the same time, I wish I should be doing more. I think all of us should be doing more to make sure that our democracy survives. Yeah. Well, maybe with your new podcast, you can have important interviews with people who are going to make commitments. And then, like, I think we as like, I don't know, we as podcasts, I'll probably go to jail for something. but that we can try our best to try to hold people to what they say. That's all we can do. But thank you. Thank you for thinking out loud with me. You know, one of the craziest things was, people that were coming across the border, they weren't even doing paperwork on them because they wanted them to go back and they wanted there to be this thing, right?

1:47:23Because that makes the numbers look bigger. It's all fucking such a charade. It really is. So we just have to think with our hearts and keep shining light where we can and keep just trying to do better ourselves. Yeah. I think we've talked about a lot of stuff today. Yes, we have. When's the new podcast going to start? We don't know yet. Sometime in the fall. Cool. That's going to be great. And you're working with Ezra. He's great. Yeah, I love Ezra. And those guys. Rooster, are you working with the Roost? Yeah. Oh, they're great. I am. That's awesome. Yeah, they do our ads and they're really, really super.

1:47:53Yeah. Marianna Van Zeller, thank you so much. Is there anything else you wanted to share? I'm great. Thank you. You are? This has been really awesome. Yeah, it's been a lot of fun. It's been an easy conversation to have. So the new season, Traffic Starts. It came out this past weekend on National Geographic. It airs every Saturday at 9 p.m. And then all the episodes are available on Hulu right now. So you can watch the episodes from this season, but you can go back and watch some of the episodes we talked about from all previous seasons. Yeah.

1:48:25Fascinating. Being alive is interesting. No, it is. Human beings are fascinating. I know. it's Marianna Van Zeller thank you so much for coming in we appreciate your time congrats on the Emmys and we'll make sure to check out the new season thank you so much Theo it's been awesome thank you

1:49:01But it's gonna take