#630 - Stephen Wilson Jr.

26:36So by making this decision, I'm diversifying my portfolio and hopefully earning more from our partnership than I would have otherwise. Remember, while MoonPay makes buying crypto straightforward. It's essential to do your own research and understand the risks involved. Crypto trading can be volatile and you could lose your investment. MoonPay is a tool to facilitate your transactions, not a source of financial advice. Trade responsibly. One thing you said that was interesting a little bit ago was you said that your dad was a boxer and he did these things. And then sometimes you're living out some of your dad's dreams.

27:16Um, and I, I find that to be interesting that, uh, that we feel like that as sons or that some sons feel that way. And then also that some dads will make sacrifices like you're saying, like, you know, and it wasn't like, it was his choice that he made, you know, it wasn't like a sacrifice, but sometimes even with choices, then come sacrifices that you don't see. And then you have to make another choice then as to what do I do here? But that like by giving birth to a son, by having an offspring, you are creating something that can go the next leg, almost like it's a, one of those races where they pass the baton.

27:53What is that called? I think a baton race. Yeah, a baton race. And yeah, so yeah, it's not as hard as it seems. I'm not sure. It may not be called that. It may be something way more complex. It is a baton, a relay race. It's our race, a relay race. But it's like, I can, this is as far as I can get. And let me put this into you with, but then it's interesting as the next runner, as the next generation is, what do I like? How much do I owe to this previous generation to carry on their dream? Do I owe anything? You know, what does it mean to be a son? Like all those things kind of were popping into my head as you were saying that.

28:31A generational relay race is not something I've put, you know, to thought regarding all that but that that is very a very accurate um observation there because you when you see a relay race like the first runner or whatever the runner before you the runners before you like dictate how fast you're going to run and they dictate your position in the in the race yeah so like if they're running with everything they got well then you're only like doing a disservice to their effort by not running with everything you got. Right. And so, yeah, that baton becomes something bigger than just this thing you're holding in your hand.

29:10It's like the sum of all their efforts. Yeah. And, you know. Yeah, and I think we used to hear a lot more. I think when families, and this is a hypothetical, but when families seemed closer and we needed more entertainment from our fathers and forefathers, and we got lore passed down and family history. When there was more storytelling, when you couldn't get as much storytelling from, like, phones and television and stuff as we can in the past few generations, but when it came from, like, those, the predecessors of ours and our forefathers and mothers, that kind of stuff, it, like, beat inside of us like a drum, you know?

29:48Yeah, what kind of, did you feel a pressure, like, and did something happen your father passed away? Yeah he passed away 7 years ago at the age of 59 and it happened yeah he was very young and it was a sudden thing and it was Was he sick? Yeah well he had like this pulmonary fibrosis thing that was starting but he ended up dying of a pulmonary embolism like a blood clot in his lungs and so yeah It was a very sudden thing that I don't think anybody really expected. He was living in Indiana? He was living in southern Indiana, and he was doing quite well, and everything kind of changed in about six months.

30:35And then suddenly this embolism showed up, and I tried to get there because his body was like shutting down. so an embolism can you bring it up just so i know trevin sorry to interrupt you steven no i don't i just like sometimes i i've let information fly and i don't know what it is an embolism a pulmonary embolism is a blood clot that travels to and blocks an artery in the lungs cutting off normal blood flow and oxygen exchange and creating a potentially life-threatening emergency so had this been happening for a while and then it got bad yeah and uh so he'd had some obviously some things going on that he never knew was happening.

31:18And then, yeah, it got to that life-threatening emergency point. And then there is a point where they can only do so much. And, you know, he was a bit of a cowboy and, you know, those kind of classic dudes that don't want to go to the doctor and all tough it out kind of thing. I'm sure there was a lot of that mentality going into it. Also, there was poor health care. You know, he was a victim of the American health care system, too, in that regard. I won't get into all that. But, yeah, that was a big part of it. We've talked about that a lot over the years. It's a nightmare. And the stress they put people through trying to deal with their own taking care of themselves, it's like it's a nightmare.

32:00Especially at his age, at 59, he was starting to feel like you're just like a forgotten human. They don't really want to take care of you. They want to do everything but that. You've got to fight tooth and nail to take care of yourself, at least where he was at that time. And, yeah, I got a really panicked call from my sister that morning. She said, you need to get here now. Dad is very sick, and we don't know what's happening. And they rushed him to the emergency room. And I jumped in my car and sped up there, and I said goodbye to him in the middle of Kentucky on the side of I-65 on an iPhone 8 on the side of a highway.

32:46And that was the— Pulled over to make it quieter? Yeah. And just so I didn't lose signal, I was so worried that—because, you know, the middle of Kentucky is the middle of nowhere. And, like, what if I drop the call? Like, yeah. And, you know, there was—so I just pulled over just—I mean, it was insane. I mean, I just, the sound of like semis flying by me at like 90 miles an hour. But literally being in a, I felt like I was in a bubble. Like not like the world was, like the world stopped around me in that little car. Like a semi could have taken the side of that car off. I wouldn't even had known it or, you know, I would have just, I was in a state of absolute shock and horror.

33:28It was a very traumatizing experience. And you were on a FaceTime call? No, it was just on a normal phone call. Was he able to speak to you? He was. Did he know that it could be like his last moment? He knew he was dying. Is this bothering you by asking you this? No, I talk about it a lot on stage. I kind of relive it every night. And that's been a challenge for me, like mentally kind of. But it's also been like the beautiful part of unpacking trauma and grief. because, you know, I'm not, like, our music, like, really, it finds the grieving, and I think it's important for me to grieve as well.

34:11Like, I go through grief every night, and, but, you know, he was such a gangster in that moment. He knew he had maybe 90 seconds left on this earth. He knew he was going, not just going, but going fast. He even told me. He's like, I'm going, Stephen. And, sorry. But, yeah, he was so calm about it. He said everything's going to be okay. That was his first thing he said, like such a dad thing to say. And he said, write a good song for me, Stephen. and he said i love you i love you i love you i love you four times and he wanted you to know for sure yeah like he wanted there to be no doubt and uh so i say it more than once all the time now because i i from that experience i kind of realized that people are counting and uh i i was counting and um and it was weird like on that last i love you it's almost like his voice got quieter like he was literally being pulled like god was snatching him from the universe in that last i love you and he was gone 30 seconds later and uh and that was it i was the last person he spoke to and um i'm really grateful that i got to speak to him and in that moment in that car I was so angry At God I was so angry at him Even my dad I was like how dare you die on me Like this Like that's It wasn't supposed to happen Like none of it was supposed to happen Like I was under the impression He was invincible first of all And he was just so young And he was just such a You know just such a lively Such a bright light so it just it didn't seem possible and then even to people in my hometown they were in disbelief when he died like it was like because his his life force was so big that like people were in denial it's like that's impossible there's no way he could be dead like and i was like no he he really is and it was a tough thing to really come to terms with but um with any great reaction or any a chemical reaction there is a catalyst and I have to say everything the reason I'm here and the reason I'm anywhere right now is because of that conversation it was you know you have a product and a reactant and then there's a catalyst and and that that conversation is what catalyzed my whole career really?

36:59and yeah that write a good song for me Stephen oh was It was like a lifetime's worth of jet fuel For me to charge across the galaxy And do everything I could To try and keep him alive To try and just tell the world about him Carry out his wish And what I found out is Carrying out his wish And keeping him alive was keeping so many other people that that other folks have lost other humans have lost alive he was resurrecting other people at the same time and these people were coming to shows with this um with this bounty of love that had no place to go and that's what grief is essentially and uh and i gave them you know you know these songs have given them a home for at least maybe three and have for four minutes and oh yeah and that's been um that's really been the charge of all of this that's been um the mission statement is um you know at the very beginning was just keep dad alive keep him alive at all costs and you know like kind of a psychotic denial for the first couple years that he was even gone i was like no he's he's still around and i and a lot of times i I felt them on my shoulders like a little kid.

38:35It was really weird. It was like this weird reversal of roles. Well, now that he's free, he kind of could do as he wants, you know? He could be on your shoulders. Yeah, he would show up like that. And the reason why I play this song, Stand By Me, is just literally two weeks after he died, I was scheduled to play this songwriter festival in Deadwood, South Dakota. And it's in the Black Hills, and it's a very spiritually charged area, just in general. yeah for sure it is and the guy that runs it says you don't have to play any music I know you're in a bad bad spot I hadn't slept in a week and he's like just come here and you know see what happens you know just be around people like there's nothing but love for you here and we know you've gone through it and at the end of the festival they asked you know all the writers and stuff there if you wanted to play a cover What's your favorite cover that you love?

39:32And they did this big finale. I'd been, for some reason, for about a year prior to my dad's death, I'd been singing this song Stand By Me in my living room the exact way I play it now. It just popped in your head to come, it just kind of came into you? Yeah, and like for some reason I was, that song has haunted me my whole life because of the movie Stand By Me. Oh, for sure. Yeah, that's a big part of a lot of people's, that movie was huge in people's lives for so many little moments. Yeah, like I very much saw myself in the kid on the left. Gordy Gilman? The Gordy Lachance. No, what's his name?

40:05Will Wheaton. Like the writer. The writer that was trying to find a voice. The nerdy little writer kid on the left. Yeah. And that song like was threaded so brilliantly throughout that film. And it's obviously the title. But because of that movie, which is also a Stephen King story. That movie is based off a Stephen King novella called The Body. So it was obviously a very haunting and dark theme But that song really haunted me because of that movie And I just started playing it I was trying to, I don't know, kind of deconstruct it Try to process it in a different way And when my dad died, fast forward to Deadwood All I could play was Stand By Me And I started playing it And I'd really never played it for anybody like that And the whole place just went crazy.

40:58And at that point, I was not an artist. I just quit my job as a scientist. I'd been a published writer for maybe two years at that point, just trying to get other artists to sing my songs. And I never really saw myself as an artist, even though my dad did. He would always be like, why don't you just sing these songs? You sound great singing them. But I would always argue with them like, no, I don't do that. I write them. Someone else sings them. But when I went up there to sing Stand By Me I swear to God He was like on my shoulders like a little kid And I got so addicted to that feeling again Yeah Like Because he I mean he was there He showed up And I truly believe he showed up at Bridgestone At the CMAs Like he did He showed up that night And Oh I bet he was so proud of you Do you feel like he's proud of you?

41:49Yeah I think so Yeah He was so proud of me before he died before any of this happened and um i think yeah he yeah he would be very proud um i've been trying to make him proud my whole life but we what did he said write a song for me or make us what did he say sorry i'm leaking over here no man i leak all the time i i yeah dude i listen to stuff that makes me cry all the time because i think i'm just full of tears and i got to get these bitches out even though i'm dehydrated half the time so i'm like i don't even know what's going on here dude no it's good for you like i'll when my dad died i swear all i did was cry for two years uh i like it's all i did um yeah you gotta get it out if you have if you can find the tears find them like right now i i can't find them yeah i mean even though i i get emotional don't get me wrong but yeah sometimes you have tears and sometimes you don't it's like almost like seasons you know it's almost like an ocean sometimes it comes up on the shore and sometimes it's out to see, you know, even though it's, you know, it lives right.

42:49Yeah. So it's like, um, and especially I think people that have had like a lot of things in their life that have happened that haven't been processed. Um, you know, it takes a long time. And I think I've gotten grateful in my life over, over, over time where there, if I find something that helps me process, I'll sit there and process it. My brother says a lot of times he's like, yeah, getting rid of grief and like, like trauma, like that old stuff and people use trauma as a buzzword but getting rid of grief and stuff in the past he's like it's like taking pennies out of a bathtub one at a time he's like you know it just it takes a long time and it's slow and it's just kind of arduous work but uh but you just be grateful that that it can kind of happen over time um what he said make a good song for me write a good song write a good song yeah because he knew that's what i was that's all i could think about and that's the baton man that's the baton yeah he used to come to my like all my shows when I say shows like playing for seven people at writer's round or like and he came to the Bluebird Cafe I remember like had his you remember when they had those giant phones that were like the size of laptops you know oh those T-Mobile sidekicks yeah baby them bitches it was beautiful yeah he had one of those bad boys and he would just hold it up and record the whole show but he used to drive me crazy oh dude there's nothing crazier than watching like a boomer kind of like record something or even just somebody from a generation above we went to the UFC fight the other day and some guy was recorded every single fight I'm like he had a front row seat and he was recording and there was a TV right next to him playing the fight so I'm like you can just go home and watch like I just didn't understand what was going on but the fact that he was there and that he cared so much about it and that he loved watching you do it there was this one song that's on the record called I'm a Song and he He watched me play that for the first time at Bluebird Cafe.

44:44I had just written that like that week. Right over here? Yeah, Bluebird Cafe. And he had his gigantic phone. I'll never forget. And I was like, Dad, please put your phone down. But he recorded that whole song. And then he called me like a week later, kept talking about that song. And about a month before he died, it was Father's Day weekend. I came up to see him. And we went to a tractor pool. and then we went home and watched some fights. And he goes, Hey, Stephen, you know that song you played the Bluebird like a month ago? It's called I'm a Song. And I was like, well, how do you even know that?

45:24Like, you know, because I was in that point of like writing, you know, 200 songs a year. I was writing, you know, 10 songs a week. So like a month ago, I'm a Song was like 50 songs ago. So I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, I know that. and he's like yeah you played at the bluebird cafe and uh he's like that's that's my favorite song i was like oh thank you dad and you're like i thought he meant like it's my favorite song his favorite song of mine and uh he was like no you listen to me that's my favorite song wow and uh i was like how are you even listening to it he'd been listening to me play it on the bluebird at the bluebird on his gigantic t-mobile t-mobile whatever that thing is And that's how he was.

46:11He was actually my first fan. And he was the, you know, he would breathe so much life into me. He believed in me so much more than I ever believed in myself. And I remember him saying, you should sing that song. And when he died, I sang it at his funeral. And it was one of the hardest songs I've ever sang. but in that moment like that was that was when you know I knew things were about to change and but yeah and that song has helped so many people and it's um I don't know it's been a bit of a thesis statement for me and so when he said write a good song for me he knew I would he knew I had already written one at least in his eyes because it was his favorite song ever so he knew at least he had proof on his phone that i was capable of writing something great and um he i guess his last charge was to please keep going and don't stop and as a you know it's got to feel good for him to be like even in a moment like i mean that's crazy to say this what am i talking about but in a moment of leaving the earth to know that you have a son or someone who can who you know you've created that's capable you know you have a child that you believe is capable i wonder what you know i'm saying or something like that no i yeah and my other siblings are also very capable he's very proud of all of us equally but i think he he knew something about me was different very young i was a very quiet kid a very nerdy kid.

47:54I had his name and his eyes, but outside of that, we were so different. So I think he just knew I was going to do something different. He was probably intrigued, I bet. Yeah, and I picked up guitar and taught myself, and he was just always mesmerized by my musical ability because it seemed like magic to him because it was God-given. Nobody taught me how to do this. Really? Yeah, I know. Oh, you just picked it up and started playing? Yeah, for the most part. Yeah, I learned some tablature, but, you know, I sucked real bad then. This is you right here? Yeah, that was probably like a week after I got my first guitar, if that even, maybe a couple days.

48:36Let me see some of this.

48:43I think we're watching everyone's family. Yep. Yeah, that's lithium. Yeah. Yeah. Who is that? Is that your dad now? No, that's just some random old dude. And this is after my dad had passed away. None of this stuff. All my whole music, I didn't have any music out when he was alive. Oh, okay. So they're just packaging this all up. Yeah, this is all like old VHS footage from when I was a kid. That's me getting my first guitar for my 16th birthday, even though I look like I'm 12. Look how hot. Go back. Hold on. Yeah, hold on. Right. A little more. Right there. you can see though how happy you can see for a second see if you can catch his face a second earlier maybe a second later you can see how bright there you can just see how happy he is that's cool dude I'm going to be cool now it's so fun dude I might actually be able to talk to a girl now oh dude yeah at least if you walk up with a guitar at least they'll be like what do you do at least you have some sort of semblance instead of hiding, putting hair in your eyes and hiding behind it.

49:53That's what I did. I said nothing to nobody. Oh, dude, that was most of my childhood when I was growing up. I was thinking about what are the responsibilities of a son? People don't think about that a lot. I think about what do my parents owe me a lot as a kid, or I have probably. My parents didn't do this, or my parents didn't do that. Some things didn't happen and should have happened. That's fair. but when I start to harp on the other stuff and it gets into this like, oh, woe is me or pity me type of thing, you know, that can be kind of a unsafe area to go into. Um, but the two can be easily connected, like things that yes, a parent should do these things or those things should be a child's life should include these things and they don't happen.

50:38And then, well, a parent, they don't owe you these things, but attaching those together. Um, but I never think about like, what is it? What are my responsibilities as a son, you know, or as a child, you know what I'm think that because at a certain point you do have some responsibility in it yourself you know um yeah i mean i've i've had a lot of thought about that and um you know i grew up thinking the same thing as you like maybe you know things should have been different or um but at the same time i i tend to think about my parents as children because they had me as children they were like it was a shotgun wedding my mama was six months pregnant they were teenagers having babies and uh so i also think about them like oh my gosh like i have a lot of sympathy for them as i was older but you know growing up i had you know anger and resentment towards certain things that i did not understand um but i've kind of tried to um you know understand you know understand that you know it's very like biological about like kind of how fathers and sons are just children and their parents in the beginning of your father is like superhuman or he's a superhero like humanize demonize and idolize is kind of how I put it down so in the beginning you idolize your father and you idolize everything they do.

52:13I remember idolizing my father, wanting to be a boxer just like him, wanting to do so many things like him and I would hide in his shadow and I idolized him my whole childhood. And then once I got into my teen years, that's when that separation starts to begin and you start to demonize your parents and you go through this whole demonization of your father or your parents. And it's actually very biological. This is how genetic diversity was spread because we're a tribal species. So the young boy, the young man, in his reproductive years would start to demonize the parents and get away from the tribe and go join another tribe.

52:58So he can procreate. So he can procreate and create genetic diversity. Right, because if he procreates too close to his own tribe, he also risks like a... yeah inbreeding yeah like the guy that taught me how to drive yeah exactly and i'm not saying no shade brandon i think he was bred properly it was just you know god put some odd paints in his in his palette we love you brandon yeah we do we do love you and actually he passed away a few years ago and we do love you he's a special guy oh man i'm so sorry brandon but but yeah and then as you know i think eventually you come back home there's always like this prodigal son kind of moment and that's where you humanize your father because that's what happened with me like you know You start off as a kid idolizing it.

53:35You get to teenage years, those years that he got me that guitar. I was probably going to start demonizing him soon. He wanted you to at least have a backbeat for it. Yeah, exactly. Something to put all those angsty lyrics into it. Put that anger to lyrics. Yeah, at least make it a bop. And then I remember when I was 25, I was sitting on the porch with my dad, and I just remembered, I was like, you're just a dude. Oh, yeah. And that's when the humanization hit. And I was like, you're just another dude doing the best you can. And I could see it in his eyes. And we were just kind of like, we were, you know, the father and son dynamic was still there.

54:15But he was now a friend and something bigger than a father. He's another human, like you're saying. He's just another human. And that's a tough moment. It's an interesting moment, too, to look at. Because it almost breaks down the wars you were fighting or whatever. you know it breaks down like a lot on everything right it breaks down the pedestal you held this person on in a way in a way some of it but it also breaks down if you've been demonizing it like well who am i fighting i'm not fighting against you know the 20 the 32 year old dad the guy that i knew who like walked by me and didn't glance or whatever your thoughts are whatever your um whatever like you're envisioning that's not there anymore yeah you know and it's like then what then And this whole like baton that I'm still carrying of anger, it's not even real.

55:00Yeah. So what's really happening here with me? And that's like a moment you kind of have to look at yourself as well. And that's kind of painful. Yeah. It's very much a self-reflective moment. And you kind of start to see kind of like, man, I was a selfish little shit. Or I was, you know, maybe you were justified in certain areas. But or, yeah, at the end of the day, they're just another human doing the best they can just like you. And who am I going to be now? that's the thing too yeah and sometimes i go back and i put on my old my sometimes i go back and i'm the same person but more often than not these days i do a decent job of like well let me be the leader instead of saying you should have led me or you should let me let me grow up it's like how many times do am i gonna fucking miss the grow up bus you know like i'm on it but still sometimes i'll stop be there at the stop in the morning and i'll be like nah i'm gonna let that bitch go today You know what I'm saying?

55:55I ain't getting on that bitch today. So some of that's interesting and it's interesting to look at and you're still just a human looking at it and trying to figure it out. Yeah. Yeah, well, it's I think all part of the journey and like it's rooted in something very old. Like I always thought like that teen angst thing was like something created in the 90s or something. It's like, no, this is pre-biblical. This is something that's been going on for a long time. If you study primates enough, you can really kind of see a lot of, you can learn a lot about humans by studying primates because they're also, you know, we're technically primates too.

56:35Yeah, there's rumors. There's rumors, yeah. I mean, we're all part of the animal kingdom, kingdom animaliae, and we are technically of the greater apes. That's what they call us. Yeah, what do you think happened? Do you think, do you think we, what do you think there about evolution? Because it's so tricky, you know, it's so like, because we're the only people that are out here. It feels like suffering like this sometimes. Can I take a piss and get back to this question? Because this is going to, this has got an answer. Yeah, let's take a break and piss, man.

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1:00:26there you go brother popping into that celsius brother i'll have a little with you let's do it There you go, Steven Wilson Jr. right there. Yeah, I remember I came to, and we just took a bathroom break, and Steven put on a nice sweater. Yeah, I did. It's nice. It looks like my grandma's curtains, so it feels... Oh, yeah, dude. My grandmother, my grandfather worked at a factory in their town. It was a small town called Wyoming, Illinois. It was real small. But it was nice when we went there because the world kind of made sense there a little more. it was like a safe place to be they had a park right across the street and they had a garden where like most people had gardens where they grew like strawberries and tomatoes everybody had tomato plants cherry tomato plants and the summers the roads would bubble in the summer from the tar yeah and so it was like kind of crazy because every now and then you'd somehow you'd be an idiot at least once a year and you would run across to the park but you would not have your shoes on and you would hit that road and you would literally you would have what we called NAACP feet you know and it was I don't know if that's a racially charged terminal I don't think it is I think it's safe but yeah you would get you would just and but the crazy part is once you got the NAACP you'd be faster at the park and that was the craziest part too yeah I mean you got that extra soul now that's what it was yeah you're like you got something to grip now Oh, you went home.

1:01:55My grandmother knew. Bio souls. Yeah, you were locked in. You got a free pair of Nikes. Yeah, you did, bro. But there was so many fun things just about being in like a small Midwestern community. The safety of it, the bike riding, the like baseball cards. Dude, we would go to this place. Baseball cards, man. They had a dime store. The smell of them. The shitty chewing gum in the pack. That was so stale. It was so gross. You'd eat it anyway. I chewed it every time. Yes. I'd be like, every time. I don't care how bad it is. Sometimes it would just disintegrate. Yeah. Somebody would break off, and you could open a box with it.

1:02:31Yeah, you could, dude. And every card was Mark Grace, I felt like. Every card was Mark Grace. Oh, Grace, too. Or Sean Dunstan. Yeah. Or Chris Sabo. They were all. Wade Boggs. Yes. Yeah. Sabo. Gosh, man, you're dropping heat. Well, dude, I mean, your song, 1994, was like, It's just one of the best pieces of nostalgia.

1:02:55I remember when I was a kid, my mom had this rug in her room, and it was like a, I think it was a cow. I don't know where she got it from or something, but it was kind of like a prized possession. It was just like a cow skin rug. It could have been a damn Dalmatian or something. I don't know. It looked like it could have been a big Dalmatian. It could have been a Dalmatian rug. It could have been a Great Dane, and we got swindled. But anyway, she said it was a cow. And I would lay there and I would like put my face right and I would inhale it. And like, because I didn't get to spend a lot of time with my mom, but sometimes at night, like she would put on hand cream or something.

1:03:36And that was like a big thing. When I was a kid, hand cream came out for women. And so women were always just put, I mean, God, I'd be like, mom, do you love me? And she'd be like, well, hold on. Let me put this hand cream on. you know it was yeah yeah it was just that she had every woman at the time had to have hand cream it's like she they couldn't even cook anymore because they couldn't open the the the cupboards because they just were too they would slip out of their hands i think women were just looking for an excuse to get out of the kitchen like well i can't pick up a pot yeah i just said i'll drop it i have too much hand cream everything's cast iron back then it was like we can't yeah we can't afford to lose any of this yeah um but i would lay in there and i would like put my face on the carpet like on the rug and I would inhale that smell of like leather and uh and I would just kind of pretend that like I lived in like a different world or that like like we didn't have a dad around so I don't know if I'd pretend like there was like this manly energy or just something you know it would kind of like the smell would fuel my uh imagination you know and I would just fantasize that like we lived on like a ponderosa or that we lived out in like New Mexico or Texas or something, you know, or like, I don't know, just that things were different.

1:04:51But there was something about when you were a kid or when you were young and just putting your face on the carpet. It was like we used to do, there wasn't, you weren't on your phone all the time. And TV, you couldn't just have whatever you wanted. So you would just do kind of crazy things. You'd look under the couch just to see what was under there. Like nobody does that anymore. Yeah, that was exciting. That was almost like taking a vacation or whatever. Just looking under there. Get a flashlight, man, that'd blow your mind. there's a whole other world under here like spiders there's like yes you'd be curious about your own world you were curious about the things you had in your own world and you'd ask mama what is this for why do we have this there was just a lot more like the storytelling you needed it was like more prevalent you know and you had to tell a story you had to find some value like we created the stories there wasn't like the internet where you could just go and like oh share this link you know we like that's why the storytellers were so valuable then because it was like oh you got to ask him the only way you're going to hear this is if you ask him you know or her and they're going to tell you about it and man that was the best what do you think this may be uh may be out of place here but um you know because i feel like stand-up comedy and songwriting is kind of our last kind of that's our that's our you know that is our storytelling now because yeah like you're right people don't pass down those stories generally anymore like they used to and i wonder if people are craving comedy and creating songwriting craving songwriting in the in the same way that you know we we used to because there maybe is a lack of that those stories being passed down and that because i feel like you know great comedians are great storytellers and great songwriters or great storytellers.

1:06:37And that is something that our culture is really not latching on to, is telling stories, even like a good joke. It's hard to find somebody. You know, when I was growing up, there would always be like somebody that would just have like a thousand jokes. And they weren't comedians. They weren't professional comedians, and they weren't wanting to be. But they just had a myriad of jokes, which are basically stories. Like they would go, you know, they would infuse the jokes into the stories. Like you wouldn't know if they were telling the truth or not. Oh, yeah. And I was like, it's kind of a lost art that you don't really see like happening a lot anymore.

1:07:15Yeah, they had good storytellers. Well, storytelling was a big thing. Well, I think this is a more general way to look at it. I think we've lost some creativity. Yeah. And I think we've lost creativity in a lot of ways. I think it's one of the reasons why Los Angeles has struggled in some ways. because in the beginning, Hollywood, Hollywood has kind of struggled in some ways. And I say this like in the sense that it started to feel super uncreative out there. Right. And I don't mean to speak bad on that, but I just think it's a note for, uh, that we've just, we've, we're missing some creativity in the world.

1:07:50And I think the gatekeepers of creativity are starting to fall. So I think you are like, I think we're in a desperate place for creativity and for authenticity where creativity, you feel like there's something genuine about it. Yeah. Maybe. I don't know. It's a great question, man. I think authentic is, like you said, because it's really hard to authenticate anything anymore. It's kind of hard to find out what is real and what is not. I tend to authenticate things with emotions and experience. Like if I write a song, I kind of have to write it from, I can't write or perform anything that I cannot authenticate from my own experiences and my own emotions.

1:08:39Did that make it tough for you to write songs for other people? I think that was a big challenge for me, trying to get other people to see the authentication of my emotions and finding that authenticity within themselves perhaps. and that alignment happening was a difficult challenge and for you, say you write a song somebody takes it or somebody accepts it and they're going to cut it and then you're like it doesn't really fit that person, that's a nightmare too that you don't think about and then it's really tough did it ever happen to you? yeah it did but you know I think a lot of it is they weren't able to authenticate the emotion that I that the music had come from that it had originated from.

1:09:26And that's not their fault and it's really not mine. It was just kind of the nature of the business. But yeah, I think, you know. It's tough. If I've had any advantages, the only way I can create a song is I have to authenticate it in something truly real. I can't do fantasy music. I can't be like something. I can't be Superman. I can't be a Marvel character. and I can't play something I'm not. I think it's because there's too much of you already who you are that I don't even think it would fit. You're just a rare foot. You know what I'm saying? So it's like a rare foot. It's like, yeah, some feet it can be like, oh, we'll put it in something.

1:10:08It'll look good here. It'll look good here. But I think when you're like, no, that's. Yeah, I was called different a lot as a kid. It was not a compliment most of the time. It was really, but I have to say it has been an advantage of as of late. And like being the weirdo finally helped out. Oh, for sure. You know, for so long you're Clark Kent and you're in there just, you know, changing clothes in a phone booth or whatever. And people like this guy is a pervert or whatever. And then eventually you come out and think some things start to fit. I've heard you say that songwriting kind of was like a survival tool for you.

1:10:46I don't think that's the right word. No, yeah, it was like, it was my therapy, especially in those first couple years after my dad died. Like I kind of, I used science and songwriting at the same time because I have a lot of training in science. I went and got a science degree. I worked as a songwriter. Were you at Purdue? No, I went to MTSU. Oh, you did? Yeah, and I worked at Mars, the food company in R &D for them as a food scientist. No way. Mars candies? Yeah. Research and development for them? Yeah. And y 'all make Snickers, huh? They do, but I actually worked in pet food for them, which is based out here in Nashville, the Nashville area at least.

1:11:27Oh, God, they were snacking on that, huh? Yep, that's me right there. Shit, I wouldn't even go to work if that's all they had in the damn snack bowl. Yep, and they did. They had like buckets of Snickers. I put on like 30 pounds. Oh, I was talking about pet food. Oh, yeah. I'm like, if I ate that much pet food, I'd wear a damn helmet too. That's insane. I mean, people did eat pet food there. I saw it. Would some people try a little, got used to it? Yeah, I'd see some people do it. Sometimes you'd see some high-level people do it too. It's like, you don't need to do this, dude. Oh, shit, that's just Cracker Jack Russell.

1:11:59Yeah, they're just trying to get down with us a little bit. Oh, yeah, some people love animals so much. There's even videos of people that will snack with them and have those little treats. Yeah, I don't advise it from a microbiological perspective. Really? Because I have a micro degree as well. I wouldn't eat raw cat food, like wet cat food. I mean, it does go through like a cooking process. That shit makes my wiener soft, brother. I'll tell you that out the gate. But I did see dudes eat it. Would you? Yeah, like with a spoon, like wet cat food, eat it. Why? I think it was a flex. No. It was a flex, yeah.

1:12:34Is there one type that's the good type? Take me through some of that. No. It's all as far as like cat food to eat. Yeah, it gets a little snack. No, I don't want to try none of it because I knew what was in that. And I knew what was in proteins and all that that goes into those foods. And I understood all the kill steps and stuff were there, but I also know that my digestive tract is far different from felines or canines. And we ain't made to eat what they're made to eat. So, yeah, I did not partake. but yeah you'd see a dude like take a big spoonful of cat food and then like drive off in his Lamborghini because you know it was usually like a high level person it was a power move it was impressive though I was just talking to my friend this morning at breakfast about things that the powerful do and why they operate certain ways because it's like yeah what can I do how weird or could this get if you have everything if the basic like I need to make money to survive.

1:13:39I need to feed my family. Or once you have like, I have seven wives living in different cities. I'm going to live in a jet or I live in a, some people might be living on other planets now that we don't even know. Got their own islands. Yes. At this point, yes, I'm having cat food, but I want the greatest cat food ever. I want cat food that cats can't even afford to eat. Yeah. And sometimes they pretend like they could discern between, be like, hmm, they're not going to like this. I was like, you're not a cat. yeah like how do you or he's eating that's for cats he's like saying like he's basically stating he's eating so much of this food he can now discern between what will work and what will not oh that's good yeah this is oh that's good huh oh that's good they're gonna love this yeah yeah the himalayan cats are gonna love this tilapia aftertaste what uh what was a product that you guys made while you were there do you remember one product that kind of came yeah it's called dentistix fresh it's still on the market i see it out there and it's for animals Yeah, it's for dogs.

1:14:36It's basically a teeth-cleaning dental chew. Oh, that's pretty cool. Very digestible. There it is. That's my baby right there. Oh, yeah, I've seen that before. Yeah, that was one of my products that I launched from start to finish. Yeah. That's cool. It's cool to see it kind of out there still doing its thing. Yeah. At the end of the show, you hum some of those out in the audience. Yeah, I probably need to start chucking them out there. like take a bite out of it. I'll catch one, dude. I'll catch one in my mouth. No, I would eat one of those if I had to, but I wouldn't eat none of that cat food.

1:15:11That's fair. And look, I love to hear that. That's mostly like flour. That's mostly wheat flour, and it ain't got the same ingredients it catches. Did you ever pitch a product that they didn't like, or are you allowed to pitch products? Yeah, I did. I pitched a lot of products, but at the end of the day, I was the geeky scientist, and they're like, you need to make what you need to make. and they have a much, I think, a greater understanding of what the market requires than some of us geeky scientists do. I had my own lab and I would come up with these new things and new designs and pitch them in my free time.

1:15:46There was a lot of creativity to it. There's actually a lot more creativity to analysis than you think and there's a lot more analysis to creativity than you think. I think the two can work very well together and like back to what I was saying, but like when my dad died, I was able to kind of apply science and songwriting because I was like so devastated, but like I was kind of able to metaphorically put a lab coat on and go into researcher mode, and that's kind of where the songs came from. I just started like looking at my pain from another perspective, like trying to look at it from the outside in as an observer.

1:16:36And then just kind of documenting my findings as I went. Like I spent four years making this record, Son of Dad, and like two or three of those years were research years. Just me documenting everything I was going through. Wow. And keeping, you know, meticulous records like scientists do. But I was channeling that into songs instead of like, you know, a pet food product. But I was still using the same methodology because I had to be true to it. Because that's the thing about science. It's just a truth detection tool. It's not an ideology or a paradigm. It's just an effective tool if it's used correctly.

1:17:15It's like a metal detector. Yeah, exactly. Or a chainsaw. Even if you use it great, it can be great. But if you use it right, it can be great. If you use it wrong, it might cut your damn hand off. Like science created the atomic bomb. It's also created cures for incurable diseases that we thought. It's a beautiful thing, but at the end of the day, it's just a tool for detecting truth. And I used it like that. So I would have this question, and I'd have my observations, and then I'd create a hypothesis, as you would say, which would basically be a song a song title, an idea and I would go out and test it in the world I'd play in front of 7 people here 10 people there, 7 people here 7 people there and I would get instant data feedback which is data that in the scientific field we can spend 6 months it can be 6 months before you get your first result from an experiment so I was getting instant results so I love that part of it yeah, I think that instant feedback is, I mean, yeah, it helps you know what's going on.

1:18:19It's even like working with the jokes, you know, and getting them out there. Yeah, absolutely. It's pretty fascinating how, like, the parts of your life, like, to be a scientist, to have, like, a methodology, to then use it to channel your emotions and look at them. You look at your emotions, look at your life, look at the path of things, you know, to put, like, to almost, like, take a template of science and apply it to something as emotional as music. Yeah, I kind of joke around calling myself a song scientist, but that's essentially what it is. I mean, because, you know, user bias is like it can so easily contaminate your results and contaminate your entire experiment and experience.

1:19:03and so I really was trying to use user bias because I was trying to authenticate something in one of my own emotions and experiences but also take user bias out of it because at the end of the day you got to find the truth and just because you don't like the results doesn't mean they're not true and that's where user bias gets in the way because you want the results to be different maybe you really like this song but you're not getting the results that you thought it was going to get So you start adjusting your formula. And then before you know it, you got conclusive results, either conclusively this is not the truth or conclusively this is the truth.

1:19:43And then you run with the truth, whether it's good for you or bad for you. And that's – Yeah, I was just looking at this right here. It says user bias refers to cognitive tendencies that distort how individuals perceive, interpret, or respond during research. What are examples of user bias? For example, you think that this is going to work for whatever reason. You have a hunch that this whatever thing is going to work, and you've now attached an emotion to it because you almost need it to work now. Now it's more about you than it is about the truth. So when you go into an experiment, it doesn't need to work out for you.

1:20:29Like your feelings have to be completely separate from this. If you're doing true research. If you're going to be a true researcher and using the scientific method the proper way. So, you know, that's, I guess when you get into a song, especially a song about your dad or a song about loss, it's easy to be like, well, it needs to be like this. It needs to say this or it needs to say that because that's what's going to make me feel good. But that's may not be the truth. truth yeah i think your songs don't really take me on like a they don't take me on a typical journey of like a beginning middle and end i guess and some of them are different than others of course but yeah i guess sometimes you think of a song especially if it's a country song i think of having like a beginning middle and end almost like a journey whereas yours sometimes sort of like take me on a a ride down a ride past something or through something yeah and it's not as much of like you're giving me this story as much as you are providing some things and i'm the store i'm remembering the story of mine that pertain that associates with it sometimes yeah well that's i feel like my and i'm not trying to like what the fuck do i know but some of that happens with your music that's what i'm saying well that's uh if if there's any goal i've ever had as a songwriter is to basically do that because I remember I heard this song called Don't Take the Girl on a School Bus when I was a kid.

1:21:56It made a mess out of me. Yeah, because everything, it's like, and this is now he's 20 years older and now it's the end of the time. But I was able in the weirdest way because my mom and dad divorced when I was really young and she was with some abusive men. And she lived in Tennessee when I was a kid. and I was always, I spent most of my childhood very worried about her. Really? Very worried about her getting killed or hurt really badly. Why did she like abusive men, do you think? I think probably a lot. Her childhood was very, very hard. Oh, so maybe something happened and then she were related to it.

1:22:36Yeah, I think it was. Oh, she's a beautiful lady. What's her name? Kathy, Kathy Lynn. Kathy Lynn. There she is. Yeah, and, you know, she's just a baby, having a baby, and my dad was a great man, but they were also teenagers. They were kind of like forced to wed because of religion. She was six months pregnant when they got married with me. There's no way they were going to have a child out of wedlock. Right. That was not going to happen. Not cool. And then they ended up having two more kids, and before they know it, they're 22 years old and they got three kids. It's that crazy. And so I have to give her a lot of grace because her life was very hard and she was very young.

1:23:22And I don't understand a lot of some of those choices she made. But I remember spending most of my childhood in fear of getting that call that she was gone. Is your mother still alive? Yes, she is. Oh, beautiful. Yeah, and she's had a wild year, and she's very much with us. She's had a wild year? Yeah, she almost got killed this year on an ATV accident. It's wild that you brought that picture up. She literally had very much a near-death experience. She spent two months in the ICU. Yeah, it's been a wild year for all of us, especially her. ATV deaths happen to so many people. people don't realize how popular it is I don't want one of them damn things I'm not saying we're getting you one this year I'm just saying I'll sell it on eBay

1:24:19skip go with that one that one can go on to the next in the United States ATV related desks typically range from 300 to 900 annually but yeah I don't know why we're even talking about this and I'm sorry but I'm glad to know that she's doing well when you guys were young what kind of stuff was she struggling with stuff her yeah yeah she had a lot of struggles and young age is so tough can you imagine that when your mother can you imagine like when i was 22 i was just concerned if i had enough you know time it might a day to jerk off without somebody bothering me and here there were people feeding children like i mean she had no business having children and uh but yeah they had these you know they very much had these children and and she was going through some really tough stuff and um you know like my dad got custody of us which was kind of rare at the time and but i remember hearing that song and i was able to put her in that song yanni's daddy it was like and it didn't make no sense that you know like why is my mom in this song she shouldn't be like it doesn't follow the storyline oh but your head put her in there my head put her in there and i was able to copy and paste all of my emotions into that song and three and a half minutes later i was a wreck like like not because of the song but because of my mom being in the song right and i was like okay that's like to me that's what the the wizardry of songwriting is like craig martin and larry johnson wrote that song not knowing that some southern indiana boy was gonna be like you know be balling on a school bus with around a bunch of FFA kids wasn't a good look and um yeah and so yeah I mean that's really what I mean I would say that was the moment that I really got bitten by or like song bit so to speak because I realized that music was more than just beats and sounds and making words rhyme it was literally taking a story like like taking someone's life and making it part of a piece of art and uh wow and that's that's really what a great song does and i think the real great songs out there um and in me as a songwriter the only thing i've tried to pay forward was that so when you said that like i was you're able to put yourself in those songs that's really all i've ever hope to achieve not so much to put just put myself in those songs i want to put other people in those songs and let them be the star of it not me got it and i feel like that's if it's if it's anything that's what how people respond to the music it's about them it's it has nothing to do with me up there i'm just a vessel yeah no i think and i think there's a lot of guys that are trying of feel i think for especially for a lot of young men it's been like there's a lot of feeling and processing that that we've missed somehow or we haven't found a way to do it i think um it's the same thing that i noticed with some of uh red clay stray's music and it's different you guys this stuff is totally different but if you go to their show they're they're great their show it's a lot of men probably kind of adult men who are process who are trying to find ways to process stuff.

1:27:50That's what I believe anyway. Um, and it's, it's just, it's interesting to see that. It's interesting to see like, where do we go to process stuff and how do we do it? And, uh, yeah, I think your music does a lot of that for people. Yeah. And that's why I was saying that, yeah, it would be hard for you to write for somebody, which makes it a little bit tougher to have a career in some ways, because you don't have like, you're you and you can write some songs and, but man that with your stuff is so personal it feels like to your brain and perspective and attitude that it'd be hard for a regular foot to fit into it you know yeah that was the that was the challenge you know like there's there's you know this sounds so much like you that was right and you know but at the same hurts at the time because you're like well fuck i'm just trying to do this but then in the end it's like oh well i'm the i'm the instrument yeah and that just takes yeah and then that's a it's a that's a gift that you are because if you'd have found this other avenue that was for songwriting and i know you've had some success in it but if you found this other avenue that was hugely successful then you may not have continued to uh nurture or the energy may not have been on the seed that was you you know the sunlight might have not focused on you to to keep that growing.

1:29:08Honestly, if my dad was still alive, I mean, none of this would have happened. I mean, really, I'd probably be just writing songs, trying to get cuts, and probably still failing at it. Yeah, your dad would be selling merch for you. It'd be nice, huh? Yeah, he would. I mean, he would still be there with his giant phone, probably recording every bit of it, proud as hell. Man, I was just thinking about my dad. So my dad was very old when I was born, and so i remember like i was ashamed to my dad so i had a lot of shame about him you know but i grew up in a lot of fear too in our household like my sister was real sick and so i was always scared that she was going to pass away and then my dad was old so he was in his 70s when i got to know him so i was always afraid he was going to pass away so it was like this constant thing of like you know it just felt like somebody was just going dang ah you know yeah so it made everything kind of dour yeah i think or i don't know it made it like the perspective was dim that's what it was and my brother would mess with me he'd come in the room and he'd be like dude dad's dead and i'm like what he'd like go in there dude go in there right now and my dad would fall asleep all the time because he was like 76 or 77 and those people like to sleep a decent amount during the day and i don't know if he'd be asleep or he'd just be laying there with his eyes closed i'm saying A lot of old people are like, I'm awake.

1:30:29I'm at work. I'm married. They're not forgetting the things that are important. But I would go up and I would have to go like, and he would be alive. And I would be like, fuck you. You're full of shit. So then it got to this weird part where my brother would come in the room and he'd be like, dude, dad's dead. And I'm like, dude, he better be dead when I go in there or I'm going to beat your ass. so it became and it flipped this whole perspective of like what was normal in the world so my friends would be like dude what do you mean he better be dead fight your brother you know but no he does this all the time dude he's not freaking dead you were like I don't know you were combating the dark arts with other dark arts yeah or my mom would be like go spend time with your dad cause he's probably gonna die soon and he'd be like alright you know and shit like that but she was just doing this to get us out of the room so she could tidy up or something you know some trick but it was just weird shit you know and so and it was true too he probably was gonna die soon so I was like well get in there and spend some time with him or draw a picture of him we probably have like 70 pictures of him we drew of crayons but if you like go in there and draw a picture of him you know you're gonna want it you know and it's horrible pictures you know and sometimes we draw him like as a black guy just like you know just like cause it would seem more exciting or whatever but were you quiet as a kid?

1:31:48no I don't think that I was I think I was like kinda curious and I like to make excitement somehow. Like I like to create ambiance for things.

1:32:02But I think I was probably, I don't know, my mom says she didn't tend to me that much because it seemed like I was doing fine. So she didn't think I needed like a lot of attention because she felt like I was doing okay, you know? Because we've had like some conversations about that stuff. But yeah, I think that was a big regret I had was that I had like a lot of shame about my dad's age. And so I didn't even embrace him really that much, you know, because I just I was ashamed of it. Wow. But it's just life's just harrowing like that. You and I had like polar opposite dads. My dad was like a baby and I was like, I guess I was kind of I wouldn't say I was a I was.

1:32:40Yeah, it was. Yeah, they were just kind of totally different perspectives to think about. Like my dad was like a child, like honestly, like a big brother. Really? A lot of ways because he was only 18 years older than me. Oh, yeah, that's pretty normal. I mean, I was like, there's actually siblings out there that are like 15 years older than their siblings, you know? Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, that had to be tough. I find that people that are, that's why I asked, you know, people that are spending, I know I spent my whole childhood in a state of fear of loss, fear of losing someone. Really? Unlosable at that time What would make that happen?

1:33:22Oh, because your mom being gone? Because my mom, yeah Losing her was not Something I was willing to bear But it seemed like it was Inevitable? Something that was just around the corner too So it made me retreat as a kid It made me really quiet And observe everything You gotta make sure everything's okay And keep my mouth shut Because I didn't want to say something or you know that could cost me her yeah it could cost me her or you know I didn't want to draw any attention draw attention to it or speak anything into existence about it and I didn't want anybody to know about it either so it was like my own little you know my own little thing and my dad didn't know about a lot of her what she was going through with her other husbands Like, that was something that I knew about.

1:34:20Oh, you knew. Yeah. And that was a tough secret to carry because, you know, it was, you know, he would have never, he wouldn't have wanted me around that. And God knows what he would have done to those dudes. Would have done, too. To those dudes. And he probably would have killed them or something. And so I was always worried. I was always trying to protect my dad from himself. And I was trying to protect my mom from herself. It made me grow up real quick. And I bet your dad's situation probably made you grow up quicker. It makes you aware. That's the thing. The worst thing to be as a young kid in some ways, it's just so aware.

1:34:55But cousin, you're living on this different timeline. You're living on this other thing. It's good to be oblivious in those years. Yeah. And really ignorant to the pain and the magnitude that is the weight of loss as a kid. We insulate and we protect children from that. Yes. We don't even bring him to funerals because we don't want them to see. That's something my dad, I've got to say, I give him a lot of credit because I've seen people die from a young age, from grandparents to family members. He would bring me to funerals probably because he couldn't find a babysitter. What's he going to do, get a babysitter or have us wait in the car?

1:35:32He's like, no, you're going to come and look at this dead body. You're going to see this dead person because one day it could be me. My dad used to drop us off at funerals in our town in order to get time away from. He dropped me off at two funerals in our town that I didn't know anybody at. And he would take us to leave us at Burger King for eight hours like they were a babysitter. I'm like, and every time we were like, Dad, they do not want us there anymore. We ate like 11 French toast sticks that people gave us, and they don't even have a play place. He enjoyed the play place. And he'd be like, it's the wrong one.

1:36:06Burger King doesn't have it, dude. They don't have it everywhere. No, so this lady named Miss Wanda, she was always like the lady that would take care of us in there. And we would just drink those syrups when people left them in there. But we'd be at the fucking Burger King for like eight hours talking to people, me and my sisters. And it would just be bizarre. But you'd end up in bizarre shit like that, you know. My dad would take, he'd be like, drive me over to the post office because I was kind of tall when I was 10 or 11, maybe 12. So I'd drive him over there, but I didn't have a driver's license or anything.

1:36:33And there'd be no parking spots. He'd be like, we'll just do a couple laps around the block while I'm in here. and I'd be like and there was this huge cutlass this Delta 88 and so I was like I can't drive this bitch and it didn't have power steering dude I would hit and the car was so banged up I fucking hit probably seven cars going around that block totaling cars with that thing oh dude just hitting all kinds of shit because yeah because those things are solid cars and there was no like mirrors around driving a house around there was no mirrors for sure after I hit the street but there was no cameras nobody knew what had happened you know and I would just be in there and if dad had to wait to buy stamps I'd be out there I'd fucking hit 50 cars, dude.

1:37:08But, dude, it was just, you would be in crazy scenarios. Odd environments put you in crazy scenarios that other people couldn't fathom, and then it would just kind of get your brain to, like, a different place. So your brain was kind of operating in some wild territory. One of the things you said, yeah, I wonder how many kids are quiet because they're worried if they just talk, if they affect the world in some way, that it could alter it, that they could, you know, because when you're a child, things are very balanced in your head. Like I remember I would swallow on both sides of my mouth. I would be careful how I stepped.

1:37:44If I counted one, I had to count one on the other side of my brain. I always had like these two sides inside of me. And I'm like one over here, one over here. Like these little things I had to do, right? And - I did the same thing. Yeah. Ticks. Little ticks. And it was because I had to keep things even. Everything had to be even. And so I wonder how many times kids operate in this space where it's like I just can't affect anything too much because things, as far as I recognize them, are already like kind of on an uncertain fulcrum, on a one-footed fulcrum, and it's going to get weird, you know?

1:38:18No, I think you just hit the nail on the head right there. It's interesting. At least with me. Yeah. I think that was, I think you articulated it far better than I did or could have. But, yeah, you're afraid to affect the world. because you might change it for the worse. So like I'm going to stay Switzerland and keep my mouth shut. Yeah. And I did that for most of my childhood. And then... But then a lot of the world happens inside of you then. Yeah. If it's not happening inside of you, a lot of the conversations and stuff, they happen inside of you, which is interesting. Yeah. And I think it can be painful and scary, but also kind of fascinating.

1:38:59It allows you to be by yourself a lot. and it teaches you and trains you to be alone and thrive in loneliness. And if there's anything, like with boxing, songwriting, I'm assuming comedy, there's a lot of loneliness to it. You got to be inside your own head a lot in order to do it properly. It's not like you just go up and play a baseball game and hit a homer and then it's this thing you got to stay in all the time. It's not event-based. It's just kind of this state of mentality. That's a good point, especially with boxing, because boxing, most of it is the training. The fights are very rare. Yeah, the fights are rare and short compared to the training.

1:39:48So your father was a boxer. How did he get into it? Do you know how? Yeah, well, he started probably a year before I was born. He saw Muhammad Ali Fight Muhammad Ali was like his hero He's from Louisville, Kentucky So almost like a local dude too And my dad just idolized him He just watched all his fights Loved everything about him In and out of the ring And I think yeah He was just really inspired by Ali's story and he literally just wanted to start boxing. And I think the movie Rocky probably just came out around that time too. I bet that probably had something to do with it. A lot of whites got caught up in that.

1:40:38Yep. But I think with the combination of Muhammad Ali and Rocky Balboa, my dad said, hey, I want to put on some gloves. And before he knew it, he was fighting. And he started on his own, just like literally fighting anybody, like signing up for tough man competitions. And then he ended up finding this great gym up in Indianapolis and fighting under this coach named Champ Chaney. That was his name. Champ Chaney, bring him up. Let's get a gander at him. I'd like to see this man today. I can still smell the cigar smoke. That's him, dude. There you go, Champ. Oh, dude, I haven't seen him in forever.

1:41:19Let him have it, Champ. That second picture right there, that's exactly how I remember. He'd have that same sweater on every time I'd see him. Oh, yeah. Yeah, Police Athletic League, that was the power clubs we'd fight at. Like, we would open up for our dad's fights. Like, when he got into, like, Champ's tutelage, that's when he started, like, really doing well. Okay. Because he didn't have any really good training. And very much like how Apollo trained Rocky, Champ trained my dad. Got it. He reformatted his whole style. He taught him footwork. He taught him head movement. He taught him all the things that he lacked fundamentally because my dad was just a tough guy with a mean punch and a heart of a lion.

1:42:01Oh, yeah. And he could just train, train, train. Loved to train. He loved to train. He loved to work. And Champ loved that about him, his work ethic. He'd show up to Indianapolis. He'd spar anybody. I remember him getting up in the morning and literally having to peel his eyes open to see us because of just sparring, not from a fight, just sparring those dudes in Champ's gym. Dude, go ahead. I was just going to say, he had a lot of guys that didn't care for him, and I remember him talking about that. He really had to fight for his spot at that gym. Your dad did? He did. What reasons would they have not to care about him or care for him?

1:42:39I think Champ maybe favored him because he really put in a lot of work. I think Champ saw what he was going through. He was bringing his kids to the gym, and he was very much out of sorts there culturally, and he was fighting an uphill battle, and the wind was in his face, and he just still kept going forward. And I feel like that's what Champ saw in him. And so when we started boxing as a kid, I mean, my first memories are the sounds of these fights, like that right there, like I can smell that picture. I can smell the room. It's cigar smoke and isopropyl alcohol with menthol in it. And it's all in a lot of sweat and leather.

1:43:27And the sound of cops under the table gambling, screaming red and blue. Because that's where you'd be red and blue. They'd have red headgear. This was an exhibition fight. Me and my brother were fighting each other in this one. so we didn't have an opponent so they'd just have us fight each other so that was one of the fights we opened up for my dad well they gave both y 'all a trophy too which is fucking sure yeah it was like a participation trophy because it's an exhibition fight but if you both get one yeah I could see that just tell them both are the winner well there's exhibition fights and then there's competition these are exhibitions so in an exhibition fight you both get a trophy got it you're just exhibiting the sport of boxing not really it's not going nothing's going on your amateur record or anything like that But then we ended up fighting other kids, and when they could find a boy our size to fight, we'd fight him.

1:44:18And so we would open up. Like the first two or three fights on the card would be kid fights. Oh, that's fun. So I joke around. I've been an opener for a long time. But, yeah, I really haven't. There's nothing funer than watching a kid smoke cigarettes or fight another kid, a little kid. I did both of those things. Hell, yeah. There's something about that. I think they should have a zoo where you get to watch people do unique shit. Yeah. If they had a section where a couple kids are sitting there smoking, like, don't have them smoke all day because I know it's bad for them. Yeah, it's bad for them.

1:44:47But they get two cigarettes a day each. And it's like at a certain time they smoke and you all get to watch it. And for like 15 minutes a day you come in and watch it. And you can stream it too. If you didn't want to go in person, you could stream it. But you're telling me some kid's smoking it on my lunch break at 12, 15 p.m. a day, you know, Gary or Robert or whatever is going to smoke. If you find a little Gary, let me know. Yeah. Bubble wrap him. Protect him. We don't. That's a precious, that's a Gare breed right there. Oh, yeah. That's Gary Indiana, isn't it? Gary Indiana is a wild place I've heard.

1:45:18Oh, yeah. But, yeah, I would watch a kid. I would love to watch a kid smoke, you know. Yeah. So, and maybe that sounds very Russian. I mean, I don't know. I've been online a lot. No, I think smoking's a very American thing, too. But, yeah, I just love, like, I don't know. I love nostalgia, too. That's something that I love, dude. I remember the first, yeah, going to funeral. Like, I just, I love the first of everything. Because after the first time of everything, everything lost a lot of luster for me in life, I think, a lot of times. And I don't know why that is. And I don't mean it, like, super negatively, like I'm not down in the dumps or anything.

1:45:55But I just, it's the first, it's like, there's something fascinating about the first time of everything. Yeah. Yeah, nostalgia is a really effective tool as far as making people go back to memories. Because you get attached then. When you get in your own memory, you're attached. It's like, yeah, there's just something that attaches you there. Yeah, and you can use senses as an appendage to nostalgia, like a sense of smell, a sense of sight or sound and touch, all that. And I think if you kind of use those senses and appendage them to a certain type of nostalgia, you can unlock a memory within any human, like all humans.

1:46:47It doesn't have to be your memory. You suddenly have a key to so many memories and so many minds. and yeah, you open up these memories that people have had vaulted for years and when they come out, it's almost like seeing that toy that you got for Christmas when you were seven years old that you were so excited about. But seeing it again for the first time when you're in your 30s or 40 and you kind of relive that excitement for at least a second. Like, oh man, I remember that feeling. I haven't seen that in 30 years. And when you can unleash that memory, It's such a beautiful thing You see it on people's eyes You see them traveling Through time And yeah It's like the first time you hear a song That really touches you It's a human thing Why I got a new complaint Who sang that song?

1:47:45Nirvana, it's Heart Shaped Box God, that song was fucking good It's incredible I was staying home from school to listen to that song, dude. And watch the video. I remember watching the video. I don't even remember that. I remember Kurt rocking back and forth in that chair. Just everything about it. That whole record in utero was just life-changing for me. That was huge. Scentless Apprentice. Oh, my God. Yeah, this is the video. Oh. I do remember some of this now, dude. I've been locked inside your heart-shaped body. dude yeah when sound garden came up bro sound garden changed my life stone temple pilot bro i actually learned how to play guitar from sound garden people if they're like if i could like give anybody like who taught you how to play guitar it literally like if i could credit anybody it would be the band sound garden and i feel is that sound garden when the that's stone temple pilots they were all so good what was sound garden sound garden um what's a sound garden song There's so many.

1:48:48As far as hits, you got Black Hole Sun, Fell On Black Days, Blow Up the Outside World, one of my favorites. The Outside World. Rusty Cage, Pretty News. The Day I Tried to Live. The Fourth of July is heavy as hell. I love Fourth of July. Fourth of July. Lemmo Wreck. Oh, that slaps. Super heavy. Well, that's Fourth of July. Blow Up the Outside. Dude. Dude. One of the greatest rock and roll vocal performances ever is Blow Up the Outside World. Like, listen to that Chris Cornell vocal and just talk to me after. It is like a clinic of rock and roll. Put these on. Let's play it real quick. You're going to play a couple songs for us today?

1:49:33What do you think, Stephen? Yeah, let's do it. Come on. I'm scared. Let's listen to this together if we can.

1:49:41There's so much like John Lennon influence in this song. you can really Oh Nothing seems to kill me Oh What I try

1:50:00Nothing's closing my eyes Nothing can be me

1:50:15Remember how videos were so much too then?

1:50:29Oh, riding, dude, riding somewhere, just listening to a song by yourself. There was nothing like it.

1:50:41He used to, my buddy would smoke cigarettes in his car and he'd just throw them in the backseat when he was done smoking them. Yeah, just flipping the butt in the back. The whole backseat, it burnt up like 70 times in the back of his car. He would just, he'd have a little water bottle from his mom's hair salon and he'd zap it out. Zap it.

1:51:10Bro, his voice was like nobody's. Oh, that's insane. I mean, it didn't even seem human that he was doing this. No. The outside. Because very few people had that range of being able to go that high, but also go low and make it meaningful, and then go back down to this world. Yeah. And take you there. A lot of those high singers would lose you when they go down like that. Yeah, it's all, I mean, just so enveloped. Like you just, like you wanted to be in their world. Smashing pumpkins together. There was a lot of good, and I always, one thing I've never liked, I don't like music where you can't hear the words, right?

1:51:56Sometimes the way they do mixes something, it loses me. If I can't hear the words, that's the part that I need the most, right? Yeah. Because I need to feel something. Like the beat and stuff helps. It's cool for me. But for me, I've always been like, what are the words telling us? You know? Yeah, you want to know the story. Yes. I want to feel something from it. Yeah. You know? I'm with you. I mean, I'm a word nerd. Yeah. I'm assuming you are too. Oh, I love to write. That was like my favorite thing. I think like one of my goals maybe the next couple of years would be to like finally get a book done.

1:52:30like I've written a lot of stuff and I've written probably half of maybe two books, but I would like to finally get it done. But once video became so popular, it was just like, and once podcasting became busier, it was hard to focus on that. Um, is there anything good in the news right now that we want to check out? Dude, I did. Will you look up an article, Trevon? I saw something about Facebook and did research and then they canceled it after it started to find, uh, beliefs that they didn't want. We were talking about that. Um, we're talking about a few minutes ago about research yeah what kind of user bias oh about user bias um unboxing that you have you done any boxing because you know you've never done it you've i've go to a lot of mma i've got a lot of mma stuff i love it as soon i you know what i wouldn't mind getting into something more the past year has been tough for me i didn't invest in a lot like the past couple years were touring i kind of should have invested more of like having a trainer with me on the road or things like that i kind of took some of that for granted um and i think in the future that I'll do it differently.

1:53:28Um, but this year I'd like to get more in a focus and more on my health and stuff like that. I've really burned myself out pretty good. Uh, but I used to take, um, MMA classes and I have a feeling that I'll get back into it. I've also had traveled. I was moving a lot too, but now I'm going to be here more. And so I need to put some roots more in some places like that. Um, so it's like, I'll be able to have more of a system, like a pattern. and so it's been tough for me to have that it's so hard to find that I box a lot here in town well a lot when I'm in town I try to as much as I can but it's helped me so much even if it's two days a week I only brought it up I went to the UFC Performance Institute in Las Vegas last week because we played in Vegas last week and they invited me in were you at the fights?

1:54:20no it was after the fights but I saw Sean Strickland there. Oh, you did? Oh, dude, he's a really amazing guy. He's an interesting guy. Incredible. He's a deep soul. He is a deep soul. And just such a nice guy. Everybody there was so nice. They're so great. Did you get to work out there or train there at all? I did, yeah. No. Yeah, I did. I trained with Brandon Jenkins there. You did? Yeah. Dude, bring up Brandon Jenkins. I went to, I tried to, I did. Yeah, Forrest Griffin basically gave me the tour. And like, he met me there and I was like, holy hell there he is nice dude yeah he put some work on me that's awesome I was really out of shape but it was cool I got to learn some new things like he you know because I only train with boxing guys and he's an MMA guy so like it was just there was a lot of different angles a lot of new things I had to learn and take it you know kind of slow and kind of start from scratch it was it was humbling and and I was like four weeks on the road and very like four weeks uh having not trained is too much time off to like go back i felt like a total piece of crap yeah like i looked real bad and i felt like i looked real bad that's the tough thing as you get older too it's like you got to catch me give me a couple days to prepare for anything i can do it but do not catch me if i've had four or five diet cokes and you want me to box or whatever bitch i'm staying in the car you know what i'm saying like way too much aspartame yeah That's what it is, dude.

1:55:50It's like I look like a damn teddy bear or something. Because also my body style, my God-given body style, I'm built kind of like a gingerbread cookie a little bit. I'm sturdy. Bring up a good G-bread on me, Daddy. It's seasonal anyway. I bet you can throw. You know what? I can survive, dude. I'll do okay. Give me a couple weeks of MMA. That's how I'm built right there. Now, sturdy. I got a sturdy base on me. Do your legs look like that? boat legging like that? No, this one had a bad this one might have been in a bad oven, but I got a little bit more frosting on me than that one, but yes, anyway, maybe the one they don't really make a perfect cookie, dude, but do you know what would be interesting?

1:56:37What if we made cookies of people that have been on this show and we saw it was like a fun we could do part of it as a fundraiser or something for moms or something That's good We eat each other's cookies And you just get a batch of them or something Yeah You can get a batch of the Stephen Wilsons Like they can bite my head off I love that If you're angry at your husband You just get you a batch of them Stephen Wilsons And chew his head off Yeah So that's pretty crazy So Brandon Jenkins met you out there Yeah And Forrest Griffin met you out there Yeah And they gave me a tour of the whole facility Oh it's cool huh And then we trained Oh man It was like I was a kid at a candy shop Did they take you through Like not just the gym part but also the UFC building and stuff.

1:57:18Yeah. Yeah, I got to go into like the lunchroom and everything. Yeah, dude, it's nice. Yeah, I was like, this is so nice. And yeah, like you don't, this is like the most dangerous lunchroom you'll ever walk into. Like seriously, like everybody was so nice and so friendly, but it was like, you'll never walk into a cafeteria that could hurt you so bad. Yeah. Oh, even the line cooks will have like cauliflower. He's like, do you want cauliflower? And you're like, oh. I'm good. I'm mad. How about the broccoli? Yeah, yeah, yeah, dude. Even like, yeah, I think like the head chef in there last week was like Brandon Roy Vow or something.

1:57:49I'm like, they got some gangsters in here. I'm being careful what I ask for in here. Yeah. Oh, that's hilarious, dude. Meta buried casual evidence of social media harm. U.S. court filings allege. Oh, yeah, this was it. This was about information. Meta shut down internal research into the mental health effects of Facebook after finding causal evidence that its products harmed users' mental health, according to unredacted filings in a lawsuit by U.S. school districts against Meta and other social media platforms. So would that be information bias? Turn all research in the middle of... In a 2020 research project codenamed Project Mercury, scientists worked with survey firm Nielsen to gauge the effects of deactivating Facebook.

1:58:33According to Meta documents obtained via discovery, to the company's disappointment, people who stopped using Facebook for a week reported lower feelings of depression, anxiety, loneliness, and social comparison. Rather than publishing those findings or pursuing additional research, the filing states Meta called off further work and internally declared that the negative study findings were tainted by the existing media narrative around the company. Privately, however, a staffer insisted the conclusions of the research were valid according to the filing. Is that user bias? I would I'd say it definitely could be user bias but I would actually have to see the research I mean there's so many other variables like you want to know that how many like participants were involved like what's your statistical in meaning like how many participants were there therefore you know your bell curve is going to be a lot more I guess a lot more valid you're going to have more statistical significance, the higher number of participants are involved in the research.

1:59:36For all we know, there's 20 people that they did research on on Facebook. Right. But if they said like, no, we did research on 200 ,000 people. Okay, now you got statistical validity, but I need to see this research paper. And because one person saying that there's user bias, and then there's another person saying, no, the results are actually scientifically valid. so that person may actually have bias because they're like emotionally attached to all the research they did who knows this could be like a user bias on top of user bias a user bias sandwich yeah oh bias the sandwich user bias it's the new bond me dude bring it back up I want to see a little bit more information let me see if it tells us because it is interesting to think though that I noticed after only a week people were getting better this is allegedly the full record will show that for over a decade we have listened to parents' research issues that matter most and made real changes to protect teens.

2:00:29Go further, see. Okay, the allegation of Meta burying evidence on social media harms is just one of the many in late Friday filing by Motley Rice, a law firm suing Meta, Google, TikTok, and Snapchat on behalf of school districts around the country. I wonder if we get in touch with them. That sounds like kind of an interesting lawsuit, doesn't it? Just to see like what are they learning and what information have they learned? Broadly, the plaintiffs argue the companies have intentionally hidden the internally recognized risks of their products from users, parents, and teachers. I want to see the research and I want to see if they conducted it or if it was conducted by a second party or third party.

2:01:08That's going to be a huge part of it. I mean, Australia just recently did a social media ban. I saw that. For kids under ages 16, I believe. Why is the Australian government banning social media for under 16s? The government says it will reduce the negative impact of social media's design features that encourage young people to spend more time on screens. Ten platforms are currently included in the ban. Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, Threads, TikTok, X, YouTube, Reddit, and streaming platforms like Kik and Twitch. A study it commissioned earlier in 2025 found that 96 % of children aged 10 to 15 use social media and that 7 out of 10 of them have been exposed to harmful content.

2:01:49This includes misogynistic and violent material as well as content promoting eating disorders and suicide. One in seven also reported experiencing grooming-type behavior from adults or other children, and more than half said they've been the victim of cyberbullying. I think, shit, I'm not even a child and all that's happened to me on there. Yeah. I'm a damn adult and some of that shit hurts. Yeah. Well, to say how will it work or when they're imposing it, I just want to get that information out in this. dude go back up it takes meta about an hour and 52 minutes to make a to make 50 million dollars in revenue that's australian revenue that's crazy wow australia's social media ban for children under 16 officially started on december 10th so they're in it they're in it if you're an australian kid shit i don't think this is illegal to have kids call but call and tell me honestly what do you think do you think it's good are you pissed about it what are the feelings right now yeah hit me with a couple uh hit the hotline 985-664-9503 and just let it drop drop and don't be some fake weirdo pretending with an australian accent yeah who's obviously a pervert or whatever we want we want real kids to call in okay no i mean australia when it comes to science and research they they are very thorough i went to school there for a year i did i did my junior year and like they have like i went there for their science programs their research programs are some of the best in the world so if they've actually done proper research to back this up i i believe that it's probably valid science and was that in sydney it was in brisbane oh yeah got out brizzy and uh yeah dude the brisbane lions dude yeah yeah my afl squad no way yeah i love the lions dude the brisbane lions bring them up and the wallabies uh oh yeah the brizzy lions dude Fucking legends, dude.

2:03:41Bring up Mitch. There he is, boys. Class. Yeah. Dude, yeah, I love the Brisbane Lions, dude. I went over there one night with Mitch, had a good time. I love Australia, brother. It's great. Yeah, I miss it. I'm going to go back some, hopefully next year. Did you find, are you married? Yes. Okay. Yeah. Is there a Stephen Wilson III? No, there isn't. No. There isn't? No, I don't have any. biological children. I have a stepson named Henry. I've been helping raise since he was about four years old. He's my boy. Pretty cool kid? Incredibly cool kid. He's such a great kid. I'm very blessed. What do you admire about him?

2:04:30He's so different from me in the best ways. He's very very intelligent and very collected and calm and very I would say he's more ordered than I am in a lot of ways he's got I think this incredible constitution about him and he's got a very calm constitution which is not what I grew up around like I grew up around a lot of noise and a lot of chaos a lot of energy and he is he's like he's like a rock in a raging river that will not move you know and I just I love that about him and he's he's a a very strong and smart young man very much into muay thai kickboxing and we started in boxing and yeah he's he's my dude and my dad was a stepfather not just a father he had he he remarried after my mother and a couple times he didn't have the best luck with the ladies but uh a couple of his wives had stepchildren and um and he really taught me how to be a good stepfather i gotta say well not by teaching me, but just by example.

2:05:47His faith was led by his works, not his words. What's one of the toughest things about being a stepfather that people don't really see or that they may see and you may have some specific thoughts about? Well, I mean, I was not just a stepfather. I was a stepchild. So I remember the perspective as a stepchild. So I go into my step parenthood as a stepchild. Oh, okay. So I have something that a lot of step-parents don't have. I have like a really unique perspective of what it was like to grow up with step-parents. R &D. You've done the R &D. Yeah, I've done the R &D. I've had the experience. I've had multiple step-parents.

2:06:28I didn't just have one set. You have a trial sample. I had like, yeah, had a lot of variability. Variables, yeah. Okay, there we go. I love this. So I got some good data there. And one thing I just remember, and this was never a conversation. And my dad just loved his stepchildren like us. There was never like, I feel like a lot of step parents, if they have biological children and stepchildren, they will be like, well, I love you just like I love him. And they'll say that. He never said that, that I can remember. He just did. That was what his, that's the lesson that I learned is that it has nothing to do with words.

2:07:11has everything to do with your actions. And so I've really just tried to be the best stepfather. I cannot talk about being a stepfather. Got it. I talk about anything. Makes sense. Just be. Yeah, I think it's tough. It's like sometimes easier for me to love a stranger than it is like somebody close to me, I feel like, in a weird way. Yeah, I mean, there's, you know, familiarity breeds contempt. That's an old saying. And, you know, the more familiar you become with somebody, the more contemptuous you can become. Oh, yes. Naturally. Yeah. So, like, a stranger is without contempt because there's no familiarity there.

2:07:54And, you know, that's, I guess, kind of the battle of love because the more you love somebody, the more familiar you become with them. And, like, I guess that is. I know. Like, how do you balance contempt and love? because contempt is going to kind of creep its way in or somehow. Resentment, something will get in there. Something negative will come in there. The more and more you love somebody, and maybe that's just the darkness balancing out the light, but I think just acknowledging it and knowing that it's there is really the big part of it because the fear or the panic behind it is the lack of understanding behind it.

2:08:36really fear is most of the time just a lack of understanding and um and fear sometimes they're standing there and you don't it's like if you really looked at it for a bit but sometimes i'll just feel a fear and react i'll do that for decades without really looking at what's going on here yeah what's really got me here what am i really you know and sometimes just you could figure it out and you're free of it you know you can at least have a see when it's standing there you know but I'll let a damn thing Michael Myers me out there forever and I won't even go out there and realize oh this is just a damn cardboard cutout of some old bullshit yeah this isn't even fucking nothing's even in this costume anymore and I've still been acting this way because part of me I get something out of pretending that that's still real too yeah I get an excuse you know I get to keep living my life a certain way when I pretend that that old boogeyman is still new you know not saying that that happens a lot but i'm just saying that that that hasn't not been a part of my story at times probably and sometimes i didn't realize it um it's wild what the mind can do those like my dad took me deer hunting and i think that was the best thing he could have done for me not it's just the boxing you know you you can't you deal with a lot of fear in boxing because you don't understand certain things but i remember like But when you go deer hunting, you go out, especially if you morning hunt, you go out about an hour before sunrise into a pitch black woods.

2:10:08And you'll walk a quarter mile into a pitch black woods. And my dad would post me up against a tree with a shotgun in my hand, not even a tree stand or anything. Post me up against a tree, and then he would go off about 500 yards out of the way because he'd have to be far away because I could shoot him or he could shoot me. Like you got to be, you can't be in range of each other's shot because we're shooting slugs. And, but I just remember like, okay, getting out there and an hour before sunrise, it would be pitch black. And he would walk me out to this tree and you couldn't see nothing. Like I remember thinking like he would walk out here by himself all the time.

2:10:46And I was like, man, that's crazy. And, and he would sit me up against a tree in the pitch black and it would just be pitch black. and then he would go off into his tree, and I would be there for at least 45 minutes in the darkest woods you can imagine, hearing everything crick and crackle and move around, shuffle through leaves. Is that a wild boar? Is that a hooker? Is that a cougar? You'd hope it was a hooker, but it never was, dude. It was like a boar. Yeah, or just a squirrel. Yeah, or a raccoon, like it had gotten shoes somewhere. Yeah, a rabid raccoon. But no, I just remember then the sun would slowly start to come up and the light, you would start to understand the woods that you didn't have understanding of like 45 minutes ago.

2:11:39And you'd start to see it. And then it was like, okay, it become, literally as the more and more light crept into the woods, the more understanding you got of the woods and what it looked like, what it was made of, what kind of trees, what kind of animals that were making all these sounds. And by the time the sun was up, there was nothing in that woods that was scaring you anymore. So it was really, you know, your fear was what you didn't understand and what you couldn't see. The woods did not change in the presence of light, the lack thereof. It was the exact same woods that it was 45 minutes ago.

2:12:14Because the squirrels don't care about dark and light. They just live. Oh, yeah. They're always up to some bullshit or whatever. They ain't afraid of the dark. Yeah. They ain't afraid of other men either. Apparently, some of these young bucks. I've seen a lot of squirrels. Gerbils. Gosh, man. You catch me a little bit. Richard Gere. Slanging gerbils, baby. Those are the old days, dude. Remember how there was crazy rumors when you were a kid? Yeah, I know. We were just talking about that. Like Richard Gere's gay used to put squirrels up his butt or whatever. And people were like, what? But somehow that made it around society.

2:12:50I know. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, that made it to my tiny little small town in southern Indiana. We were just like, what are we talking about? I guess maybe that is the downside of social media is that those old bullshit rumors don't come up anymore. They were so good. They would shoot them down immediately. It would be all over TikTok in a day and then someone would be like, this is a bunch of bullshit. And then they'd be like. You used to be able to lie to people. Yeah. My dad's a skydiver. Yeah. Like, oh, he'll be home any minute. You fucking lie to people all the time. You'd be like, I'm a lawyer.

2:13:25They'd be like, you're in seventh grade. What are you talking about? You're like, yeah, whatever. Doogie Howser. The defense rests. Doogie Howser, you heard of it? Oh, Doogie Howser was good, huh? That stuff. You could become a doctor at like age 12. Yeah. Like, man, the world was wild. They just did whatever they want to in the 90s. Richard Gere, gerbils, children doctors. Doogie Howser. To be young, huh? Yeah. Saved by the bell. Oh. I saw, I was at the UFC fights the other day, and I saw Mario Lopez. Oh, wow. How's he doing? Crazy every time I see him. He looks younger than when he was working on.

2:13:59He's got, like, his mullet back. He's just walking through. Oh, 100%. Like, what grade are you? He's, like, in seventh, eighth grade now. Still wearing, like, those leotards and stuff. The unitards. Yeah, the unitards. Yeah, bro. He looks even better than that now. I don't even know what happened. He looks incredible. Yeah, he was like, yeah. He's every ethnicity, too. Looks like he's still captain of the wrestling team. Oh, dude. Dude, oh, God, yeah. Oh, geez. Sorry. But, yeah, guy looks healthy. What I'm saying is this. Whatever, dude. I like women. But what I'm telling you is. Will you have kids?

2:14:31You own your thing? I don't know. I'm pretty good. I think, you know, we've talked about it. We've also talked about adopting kids. But, you know, I don't know. I've got a lot going on right now. I got Henry. I've raised, I mean, I know what it's like to raise a child. I know what it's like to love a child. I know what it's like for a child to love me. I'm not missing anything. So, but you never know. You never know. You know, we could have a child. Right now my life is very, very busy. And I think I have other things that I'm supposed to be doing right now rather than raising a baby at this particular moment in my life.

2:15:18And I have a lot of work to do right now. And maybe a child will be in the future. That's fair. But you asked about nieces and nephews. Yes, I do. I have quite a – like all my siblings have children. and yep, I'm wild Uncle Steven that goes around the world singing his songs. They're a little bit, I'm sure they're like, what the hell is this dude? Because all my family are still in my hometown. They work on cars and it's very much a small town life. And then my weird ass does what he does. But they love it though too. Oh, I bet they're so proud of you, it's cool. Oh yeah, I don't think they know what to think about any of it.

2:16:03because they've seen me kind of live multiple lives in front of them. That's been one wild thing to see because my siblings had their children very young, just like my parents did. And so a lot of my nieces and nephews are older now so that they remember me when I was a scientist and that's all I was doing. And then they remember when I quit my science job and I was waiting tables and bartending and just trying to get a publishing deal. And then they remember the guy that got a publishing deal and was writing songs for other people. and my dad recording them on the big phone and all that and now there's this chapter so they've kind of got to see their uncle go through multiple identities so if anything i hope that it's been you know helpful for them to see that you're not stuck in any particular life like you can live multiple lives you can do all kinds of things you know um amen man and i think it's important for them to see that, you know, you know, life has chapters.

2:17:03It's not one chapter. You know, and you're writing your own book, and you can make the chapters as long as you want, but there are only so many pages. Amen. Amen, indeed. Well, thank you for helping us think about stuff, man, and for giving us some of your music over the years. Dude, I'd love to get together, and we could talk again sometime. I feel like there's other avenues of things we could talk about, and sometimes I realize it's better, you know, to just get together and talk again sometime. So that way we could go down different roads and think about other stuff. I think today it's been nice to just talk about like familiar relationships and how some things can influence you and yeah, what it's like living like your father's dream out.

2:17:47We never talked about the theory of evolution but we can get to that next time maybe. Yeah, we can. I'll put a whole presentation for you together. Well, I'll do the more R &D while you're gone, I think. I might hit a petting zoo or something while you're gone and see if I can get a little bit more research done, dude. Well, I got to say, I probably owe you money because I feel like I could have paid a therapist a lot of money. I've never had therapy in my life, but I probably do need it, haven't. But you said something that was so insane earlier about the quiet part, about do you think um you know you were quiet because you didn't want to affect the world around you yeah i think like i like i said that really rocked my world so to speak i'll be thinking about that for a long time um there's certain things that we as songwriters say to some sometimes that somebody and it it kind of flips a switch or it makes them think about something they've thought about for a long time totally differently and that that was a paradigm shift and i thank you for it so if anything uh i walked away with a an incredible piece of knowledge that i like i said i could have could have never even found in therapy and if i had it would have cost a lot of money so thank you oh you won you're welcome man no you've all you've already you've paid me you paid in advance dude so many times i've listened to your songs in moments where i needed something or to process something or just to remember my father, you know, like I, like, you know, one thing about my dad, I remember he liked to whistle and he had change in his pockets all the time.

2:19:26So if I hear change, you don't hear change in people's pockets anymore. They used to be a thing, you know, like an older man, he'd have change in his keys in his pockets. And now like a lot of car doors are just auto entry and, um, it's hooked to your phone and people don't have change anymore. But that, like, when I want to think about my dad, I'll like, that's one of the first things I'll lay there and think about is the sound of change in somebody's pocket kind of, you know. That was his song. Yeah. Yeah. That was his song. That was, like, my dad always whistled. He always had a song in his head.

2:19:54He was always whistling a song or humming a song or singing a song. Like, he was a song. Like, you know, he was either riding a song wave or just, you know, being a song without being one. But, you know, like, yeah, there was always, like, a sound to him. and it sounds like your dad had the same sound. Oh, yeah, he was a joyous instrument. But, yeah, if we think of ourselves as a song, it's like what song am I when I go into the room with people? And you can be a different song. Sometimes you're a separate song, maybe when it's just you by yourself or your music's kind of off and you're just sort of listening.

2:20:26But, yeah, it's like what kind of song do I bring into the world? And then do I just play the same song over and over again, and maybe I do that because it's therapeutic to myself. I don't know. But it's been fascinating, man. it's been fascinating to be a fan of yours. It's been fascinating to get to share your music with other people. I've done that a bunch to connect with them. Thank you. You know, tell my brother like, hey, man, I love this song, you know, and then he can call me back and like, oh, I see why you like it, you know, and just things like that that can bring people closer together.

2:20:58So thank you so much, man. Thank you. You shared my music a lot on your show, and you talked about it a lot. I remember Randall Lambert was in, and we both loved you. Yeah. Well, everybody loves to talk about you behind your back, Stephen, so I figured we would do it in front of you. Well, I'm grateful either way that anybody is talking about this music, and you've been an early champion. Oh, well, I don't know if that's true, but thank you, dude. And Evan Bartels is another great guy. If you're listening to any of his music, God. I mean, there's just some people that can just make me feel something, you know?

2:21:30And so thank you, dude. Thank you for helping us feel. Would you honor us and play a song or two before you leave? Let's do it. Let's go. All right, let's do it. Let me play some Gary. Let's do it, man. Ladies and gentlemen, Stephen Wilson, Jr. Thank you, sir.

2:21:50One, two, three, four.

2:21:58Gary these days been lying in his bed, man. Working on the same car going on a decade.

2:22:10Scribbles on drum metal don't draw attention I never really noticed but now that I mention it Ain't a lot of boys named Gary these days Born with a cigarette glued to their face Fixin' bout anything a hammer can't handle Savin' on the money cause a Gary don't gamble Ain't a lot of girls gone by Debbie anymore They got the same nicotine pouring out their pours Time leaves town but the minute hand stays There ain't a lot of boys named Gary these days

2:22:56Gary these days been worried about the bad news There ain't a lot of teenagers filling up the church pews No Burning bush lights don't talk to his brother No But people even still say grace before supper There ain't a lot of boys named Gary these days Pouring with a cigarette glued to their face Fixing about anything a hammer can't handle Saving all the money cause a Gary don't gamble Ain't a lot of girls going by Debbie anymore But they got the same nicotine pouring out their pores Time leaves town but the minute has taste Ain't a lot of boys named Gary these days

2:23:57Hey, every now and then gets a damn thing running Takes it out for a spin for a sneak of me

2:24:09He believes in God who believes in little black-hand peas On the stove on his day

2:24:30I had a weird suspicion with the light out on the front porch The hard medication poured down where the drain pours He holds his left arm while his parakeet prays

2:24:51Has anybody seen much of Gary these days?

2:24:59Has anybody seen much of Gary these days?

2:25:07Yeah Yeah No there ain't a lot of boys Ain't a lot of boys Ain't a lot of boys Yeah

2:25:19Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah

2:25:36Thank you.

2:26:09Why are you doing like that? It's just fun, huh? This is fun. It's almost like the door closes on it or something. It's like the, you know, Gary dies, and it's almost like the door closes on Gary. It's Gary said. It is, dude, and there's not enough Garys out there. There's not. I mean, they're a Gary breed. Dude, well, they should have a museum that has Gary. in it. I agree. I always thought there would be a great idea for a Gary Busey museum called the Gary Busey. Oh, I like that. The Busey, yeah. He should have that. I think so. And you go in and it's just like a bunch of point break memorabilia.

2:26:51Yeah. Yeah, a lot of good Busey stuff. He was in a lot of movies and some of his cameos even does now. could be in there. Yeah, he like breaks the fourth wall. I love that about him. He looks at the camera. You ever notice that? Like in movies, like he like looks at the camera. I don't know if I've noticed it as much. But now that you say it, he breaks the fourth wall of existence of being human. He does, yeah. He shatters right through it. He speaks in acronyms. It reminds me of a rare name, dude, that I, or Debbie, we had, was that Debbie in the song? Debbie, yeah. We had, what was her, Miss Robin.

2:27:29Oh, yeah. That was our lady at our kindergarten. and I would not sleep. I couldn't nap time or whatever. So she started to notice it and she'd let me go outside and watch her smoke when we were kids. And her hair, she goes, if you can't sleep, you can come watch me smoke. That was your Debbie. And sometimes I would need some sleep. So I'd be like, I'm going to sleep today or whatever. But then probably two days out of the week, I'd go out there. And watch Robin smoke. Tell me about her husband and stuff like that. And her hair was kind of like this feathered sort of cut. That's a total Robin. I think she looked exactly like a man, but she was beautiful though to me she was probably one of the hottest she was a woman that would talk to me so she was stunning it was incredible god there was something like that just to watch a robin smoke not the bird but the human a human robin we talk a lot about your quote I know it's not your quote but grief is only love that's got no place to go we talk a lot about that man on here we've mentioned it a few times you think you could play that for us I could yeah I'd be happy to would you mind it'd take just a second for me to tune up for it okay

2:28:58music plays And I miss my father every day The kind of pain I pray don't fade away For the ones who guide me down the road Yeah, grief is only love that's got no place to go From my great granddad in the ground To all the ghosts in my hometown Yeah, they're the ones that find me down the road Yeah, grief is only love That's got no place to go Yeah, grief is only love

2:29:52Let's go The world is a cannonball So deal with the feelings you can't hide God gave us alcohol When we need to leave them all inside And I don't feel like crying But I just keep crying For the ones that birthed to guide me down a road Yeah, grief is only love that's got no place to go But my great granddad in the ground All the ghosts in my hometown Yeah, they're the ones that find me down a road Yeah, grief is only love That's got no place to go Yeah, grief is only love

2:31:01Grief is only love

2:31:07Grief is only love

2:31:22I don't feel like crying But I just keep crying For the ones that guide me down the road Yeah, grief is only love That's got no place to go So hang on to the hurting And let it grab a hold And the only thing for certain Is it's out of my control And grief is only love That's got no place to go Yeah, grief is only love That's got no place to go Yeah, grief is only love

2:32:21Grief is only love

2:32:28Grief is only love

2:32:41Grief is only love

2:32:59That's awesome, man. Thank you so much. How do we feel? Sound okay? It sounds great, dude. Yeah. Just thank you. Yeah. It's just nice. Thank you, Theo. Yeah. Thank you. Trevin, was that okay? That was fucking awesome. Wow, dude. he's never used profanity in here so he's gonna get into merit he's never cussed in his life what's going on dude thank you so much thank you so much dude you're awesome and I love it and thank you for sharing and helping us feel and making it okay for people to feel stuff and yeah yeah I think yeah it's it's time to feel things because what else do we have if we ain't got feelings I think it's the only thing that separates us from the robots at this point so let's lean into what we got amen lean into what makes us real Stephen Wilson Jr.

2:33:49thank you so much brother thank you God bless you all you too

2:34:14But it's gonna take