#635 - Sen. Bernie Sanders

24:56So you ask me, am I optimistic? Can we bring about change? I would say New York City is a pretty good example of what happens when people come. And he said, you know what? I'm going to make this city work for working people, not just the billionaire class. And he's just been in office for three or four weeks. I think he's doing great. but you asked me about my optimism when I see 90 ,000 people going out on the streets volunteering for this guy and he's implementing. He was out, you know, we talked about being on the nurses' picket line today. He was there with me, standing with the nurses. So, yeah, and I've seen this, other great members, you know, media doesn't do a great job, but you've got dozens of young men and women in the House of Representatives, strong working-class members of Congress.

25:44So, yeah, I am, in that sense, optimistic. On the other hand, you know, Donald Trump worries me very, very much. You remember, it's a funny story here. He was inaugurated just about a year ago, and I was there. For whatever reason, I got pushed into the front row. I fell out of my chair. I was in a chair that broke. Well, my chair didn't break. But I was almost as close to Trump as I am to you now. And you remember who was behind Trump at his inauguration? Oh, yeah. Who was up there? You had Zuckerberg. You had Elon. You had Bezos. You got it. Yeah, and a dozen other billionaires. Okay, so you ask me where I get pessimistic is, you know, and literally, this is not just saying this, it's true.

26:37I was thinking, you remember Abraham Lincoln in Gettysburg? But he said, Lincoln went to Gettysburg, the scene of this horrible battle during the Civil War. Tens of thousands of soldiers killed. And a few days later, Lincoln goes to the battlefield. And he jots down some notes. And basically, I'm paraphrasing. What he says is, you know, these soldiers who are fighting against slavery did not die in vain. They died so that we will have a continual government of the people, by the people, and for the people. Amen. And then I'm looking at what Trump and his inauguration, and I'm seeing these billionaires there, and I'm thinking this is a government of the billionaires, by the billionaires, for the billionaires.

27:19And that's kind of how it's evolved. I'm not surprised that this is kind of where we've ended up. I don't know if this happened overnight. It doesn't feel like this happened overnight with Trump. it feels like this has happened more and more over time. At least Trump, it feels like to me, this is messed up, but at least he brings his billionaires up there and shows them off, you know? You're right. That is something that's kind of crazy about him. It's no secret that PrizePix is America's number one sports picks app. And it's easy to use. That's what I enjoy about it. And it's got everything from players picks, team picks, and now culture picks.

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30:02MoonPay is a tool to facilitate your transactions, not a source of financial advice. Trade responsibly. But I love your energy about like, yeah, like how do we stay hopeful, right? How do we stay hopeful when it seems like it feels almost impossible to how do you vote somebody in that would be able to withstand the tide of it all? Theo, this is where we've got to take a deep breath and accept our very serious responsibilities as citizens. Okay? And you think back, and I don't want to romanticize this, but you think back on American history. And, you know, we read all about this when we were in the third grade, you know.

30:41Those were pretty brave guys, George Washington and Jefferson and all those guys, taking on the British Empire. You know? No one in a million years thought you could defeat the British Empire. For sure. And they did. And a lot of them died. Thousands died. Thousands of them died. It was a pretty bloody situation. And then you think about the Civil War where very brave people said, you know what, slavery is a moral abomination. We're not going to accept it anymore. God knows what that Civil War was about. Hundreds of thousands of people on both sides died. And then you think about, and I think about this, You know, December was it?

31:17December 7th, 1941, the United States was attacked at Pearl Harbor. We were totally unprepared. Do you know that? We were totally unprepared. We had to fight a war against Japan, a war against Hitler in Europe, right? Totally unprepared. And yet the country came together. You know, instead of building cars, they built tanks and planes. Literally in two or three years, we had put the Nazis on the defensive. The war was won. So what I'm saying is this is perhaps the most difficult moment in my view. in modern American history. And it's because Trump is an authoritarian who happens not to believe in democracy.

31:54And I think he's corrupt. And it's tough. But we have won great battles in the past. And I believe if we do not allow our people to become divided up, we will win this as well. And not only defeat Trumpism, which I worked very hard to do, but also create the kind of nation that we can become. Healthcare is a human right. You know what? If you have some kids, children, they have a right to get all the education they need. We are not some poor third world country. Right? All right. So we have got to have a vision of where we want to go as a nation. And I think if we fight for that vision, if we bring people together, we can succeed.

32:39When you speak with guys like Mom Donnie, did you have any suggestions for him? Did you give him any advice? Well, actually, he followed my political career pretty closely. He studied what I did as mayor of Burlington back in the 80s, the campaign that I ran. Yeah, so we chat every now and then. I am extraordinarily impressed by his energy, his intelligence. He has a really good persona. He's out there with the people, and I think he's going to do a really great job for the city of New York. Do you feel like the Democratic Party kind of takes him seriously as like a future candidate for like elections or for presidential elections?

33:18Now you are raising a sensitive issue. Is it a sensitive issue? Sensitive issue. But yeah, is it – or do they look at him as like a one-off, like an outsider? No. Look, what does it mean to be the establishment? The establishment means in a corrupt political system. Or if you're the establishment, what you do is you leave this, you get on the phone and you talk to your billionaire friends and say, look, I'm setting up a super PAC. I want your help to win the congressional race in Arizona and California. I want you to put in$30 million each, okay? I'll have$300 million. Ten of you put$300 million.

33:52I get the ads going next week. We're in business, right? That's crazy, yeah. That's the way the system works. And every now and then you have somebody like Momdani who comes along and says, I don't want your money. Not only do I not want your money, We're going to take you bastards on. Okay? Do they want to? No. So the Democratic Party right now is kind of split. I am an independent, okay, to be honest with you. I'm the longest-serving independent. I caucus with the Democrats, but I'm an independent. Proud of it. They get really independent, too, when it's time to put you on the ballot, too, I noticed.

34:23Right. That's fair. You know, so I work with people like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Primo Jaiable and Ro Khanna and a bunch of other people. and we are trying to move the Democratic Party to be a party that stands with working class Americans and has the courage to take on powerful special interests. Now there's another faction of the Democratic Party that, you know, doesn't like Trump for I think a lot of right reasons, I agree with him, but basically cuddles up to the moneyed interests and that's the vision that we have. Mamdani is part of the movement that I've helped try to build, Alexandria as well, and others, many, many others.

35:03So that's the kind of the split that we're seeing within the Democratic Party. Got it. Do you feel like you've been in politics for a long time and you you're growing in to be an adult now in your years? By an adult. I know my grandchildren will tell you I'm not, but I don't know. But I just mean, do you feel like at some point, like it's time to start a new party, like more than ever? Like, do you feel that, you know, because all you I mean, you have guys like like you talk about guys like Ro Khanna, people are inspired by him, I got to sit down with him. I like a lot of things he has to say.

35:34He's a good guy. An internet bill of rights. I feel like he's a forward thinker. Yes, he is. Smart guy. Yeah. So I feel like if you've got a band of people, it's not that hard to find the people that people love. Good. All right. Have I thought about it? Yeah, like for about 400 years. That's all you've thought about it? All right. All right. But here is, this is the reality that I have to deal with every day. in my view the republican party which used to be a conservative party a small government type party has become under trump kind of a right-wing extremist party okay there are some exceptions to be sure but that's kind of where it is democratic party as i mentioned to you their establishment more or less wants to protect the status quo and then there are those of us who want to bring about fundamental changes in the economic and political life of the country That's where you are.

36:29Now, starting a third party is something, when I was mayor of the city of Burlington, in a sense, we did. I took on, I defeated a Democratic mayor. Yeah. And so we had Republicans, we had the Democrats. That must have felt awesome, was it? It felt pretty good. I had been mayor for 10 years, and nobody thought we could win. We won by 10 votes. Oh, yeah. And by the way, I say that to people. If you think it's hard, you could do it. We did it. All right. That was a long time ago. And we started kind of unofficially. We called it independent party of sorts. So it can be done. And there are strong independents today running for office who have a chance to win.

37:16But you ask about starting a party within today's political climate, it is very hard. For example, you want to start a party in many states. You're going to have to get enormous numbers of signatures in every county in the state to even get on the ballot because the two-party system does not want you on the ballot. Of course. Okay? And, you know, you likely don't have a lot of money to do all that stuff. So it ain't easy, but there are people who are thinking about it. Right now, where my energy is, is to transform the Democratic Party. You know, when many years ago on the Franklin Delano Roosevelt, the Harry Truman, the Democratic Party was considered to be the party of the American working class.

37:56Unfortunately, that has changed over the years. I want once again to have a Democratic Party which has the guts to stand up to the billionaire class and create an economy that works for everybody and not just the very rich. You know, we hear a lot about the, you know, we've interviewed some of these tech CEOs and billionaires. really um and they talk about this kind of a universal basic income right but it sort of feels like it's led by the tech industry and if that gets created that's not the same thing as one that's led it feels like by the government does that make sense to you yes because one that's subsidized by the government is more like um it doesn't feel as controlled uh well i guess it does it just feels like controlled by two different groups again what i want to see and i suspect you want to see.

38:46Let's not use the word, the government is not Tesla Corporation. The government theoretically in a democratic society is you, right? And to some degree, you don't like people, you can get rid of them, right? And our job is to create a more democratic with small d, not a big d, small d, where government is responsive to the people. But But I want to say a word on the issue that you just raised. I have, over the last six months, become very, very concerned about AI and robotics. And there are a lot of reasons why. Number one, the easiest, I think, most apparent reason is what these data centers.

39:30I don't know. Are you following these data centers? Oh, yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. What are the side effects? They're taking over, like they're absorbing water in a lot of communities. I know they just built one in Louisiana near, like, Basque in Louisiana. But, yeah, and they're not even going to end up keeping that many jobs for people once they're open. There will be a decent number of construction jobs. Right. But after that, it's not going to be many. Right. To run the place like almost nobody. Security guards, basically. Exactly, exactly. And the result of that is it drains, as you've just said, scarce, in some cases, water resources.

40:02And it raises electric bills. Okay. So that's number one. Number two, to me, even the big issue. Let me quote. I wrote this down here. Okay. Elon Musk, our good friend, right? Musk, now, when you understand, to understand AI and robotics, understand that the very, a handful of the very richest people on earth are investing hundreds of billions of dollars, okay? That's Mr. Musk, Mr. Bezos, Mr. Ellison, Mr. Gates, and others. Okay, these are the richest guys on earth. Now, why are they doing it? You think they're doing it to stay up nights and they're staying up nights worrying about working people?

40:43You think they're investing hundreds of billions of dollars to say, how do we make this world a better place for working people? Between you and me, I don't think so. These guys have huge money, but getting back to the point you made earlier, you know, it's not enough that they're worth hundreds of billions of dollars. They even want more and more wealth and more and more power. Okay, so let's talk about what are the implications of AI and robotics. Okay. Well, they're going to take away jobs, so then people won't have purpose. You got it. All right, good. You hit the nail on the head. Let's start off on that one.

41:17And now the answer is nobody knows exactly, all right? No one can predict what happens tomorrow, next year, five years. This is what Elon Musk, the leader of this whole effort, says, quote, I'm quoting Mr. Musk, quote, AI and robots will replace all jobs. Working will be optional. End of quote. And then he later said, yeah, you want to do a garden in the backyard for a hobby? That's great, but you don't need to do that. Bill Gates, worth a few hundred billion, heavily invested in this, Microsoft. Humans, quote, won't be needed for most things. End of quote. Dario Amodai, head of anthropic, quote, half of all entry-level jobs will disappear.

42:01And there are other estimates out there that we're talking about over a period of years. Nobody knows exactly when tens of millions of jobs in the next decade disappearing. So you tell me, what happens when tens of millions of jobs that people now make an income from disappear? What happens to those people? Well, I think there's some of what I've heard is that some of these same companies would then offer some share. It's kind of, it's a vague terminology a lot of times of a universal basic income token or something. Really? No kidding. I agree. And how much you getting? And who's going to determine that?

42:38I have no idea, dude. It sounds like you get like one 11th of a Rubik's cube every two weeks or something. But also I think if you could get to a place where it was like that and people did feel a sense of some sense of purpose or peace or part of something again, it could be, there's a chance it could be something beautiful. All right. There's a chance. All right. Good point. I agree with you. But my questions would be, do we just end up working for these companies that are paying us this UBI? What's the psychological effects of it, right? Like what's the long-term effects of it? and then do we still have a sense of individuality if we don't have exactly anything to do, you know?

43:23Or do we just turn into those kids from WALL-E? Can you bring that kid up? Yeah, there you go, yeah. Like a young Bert Kreischer kind of there. All right, but then what we need to do is to take a deep breath because this thing is moving really fast. I don't know, have you seen some of these robots on the internet? Oh, yeah, unfortunately. Some sites I shouldn't have been on, Bernie, to be honest with you. But yes. All right. I mean, they are moving very, very rapidly. Yeah, a couple. Yeah. The ones from Atlanta are for sure. I'll tell you that. And, you know, in Amazon, I think half of the workers have, I'm not sure about this, I think half have already been replaced.

44:00Well, yeah, especially if you start thinking that Waymo cars are going to pick you up. It's just like, what are people, there's going to be a really tough, does anybody have a plan for the first two years of this thing? You got it. You got it. Okay. You're hitting the nail on the head here. The point is this thing is moving at revolutionary speed. And I can tell you absolutely and positively, as a member of the United States Senate, that Congress is in no way prepared to deal with this. You know, the United States got attacked tomorrow by some enemy. You know, we got a large military, da-da-da-da, they know what to do.

44:33Ain't nobody been thinking about how to respond to this extraordinary, monumental change that's hitting the America. So I have proposed, and I get criticized for this every day, a moratorium on data centers. Why am I doing that? Well, number one, I want to protect people's communities. That's number one. Electric rails, water, and all that. But also, I've got to take a deep breath. Your point, what the hell is happening? Are we prepared if tens of millions of people lose their jobs in the next decade? All right. What happens? How do they stay alive? So the economics is one thing, but I want to take it a step further.

45:10And this is, now you're in the crazy world, okay? This is science fiction, except it ain't science fiction. Yeah, we're here. That's right, we're here, okay. So you understand this AI now, you know, you know what you know based on what you've read, what you've seen, your life experience, right? Me the same, every human being the same. These AIs have absorbed all knowledge. Every book that's been written, every mathematical formula, every physics proposition, they got it. That's what they got.

45:45And what worries not just me, and this is, do you remember, what was it, 2001, the movie? Did you ever see that movie? Oh, yeah, Space Odyssey? Yeah, Space Odyssey. All right. And you remember, and this was done many years ago, Hal is the computer that runs the spaceship. And one day the guy says, Hal, I'd like you to do this. And Hal says, well, sorry, I'm not going to do it. Rebellion. Okay. Everyone's like, oh, really? You know, big joke, funny. I had a public meeting in Georgetown a few months ago with a guy named Jeffrey Hinton, a really nice guy. Yeah, he's the godfather of AI, right? Right.

46:19He's the guy, he's been studying the issue. Alleged, yeah. You know, he's been studying the issue for decades. He got a Nobel Prize in physics, okay? It's a big deal. There he is right there. I've heard a couple of his speeches. Yeah, and this is what he says. He says, there is no question in his mind that at some point, sooner than later, AI will be smarter than human beings. And it is not science fiction to worry about whether or not AI is going to communicate with each other in a language that people don't know. That ain't going to be English. And that they may see the human race as an impediment to their progress.

46:59Okay? You with me? All right. That's the doomsday scenario. So that the computer's like, God, these people are slowing us down. You got it. Okay. Now, again, you know, some people, I mean, I think nobody thinks that that is crazy anymore. Some people say, well, you know, it's kind of unlikely, maybe five to one, maybe 10 to one, but it is incredibly risky. And they don't have the safeguards to protect us. All right. Now, let me give you something that I am seeing today and you're seeing. And that is we are living in a country with a lot of emotional distress. Okay. For a variety of reasons. A lot of young people are turning to AI for emotional companionship.

47:41I broke up with my girlfriend. Yeah, that's ridiculous. Okay, and what do I do? Or my mom is safe, da-da-da-da-da-da. So we're seeing people not relating to other human beings, but relating to AI. What is the long-term implications of that? I mentioned earlier that robots are now treating patients. Musk talks about creating millions of robots in the next few years through Tesla. Oh, it's Orwellian at some point. It's this very thing where it's like, here's my question. Would we even notice the day when we switch over from thinking that we have control and we are making choices for ourselves to the day where we are just following along what the computer says?

48:27Do you think we would notice? Maybe not, because they would create the environment. It's, you know. Dang, Bernie. It's pretty crazy stuff. It's crazy. And then you got even things like warfare, okay? You know, right now, to some degree at least, certainly not in the Ukraine or in Gaza, but to some degree, political leaders are constrained about going to war because they don't want to be telling the parents of their young men and women who died in war, right? Well, every week there seems like a new place that we're trying to attack or bully or take control of. We'll get to that one in a minute.

49:02But General Leesman, what happens? What happens now? If I'm president of the United States, I don't have to send your kids off the wall. Right. I send robots off the wall. What does that mean in terms of far right? Am I going to go invading every country in the world? I don't have to tell any parent that the kid was lost, right? Yeah, you could sit up at night in your White House or whatever and just use a remote control. You got it. And no loss of life. Right. All right. So what does this mean? Not here. Not for us anyway. way. Right, right, exactly. So what does this mean about international instability?

49:31It's incredible. Well, there's going to be not much communication anymore if someone doesn't know if a drone just showed up in the middle of the night and did a bunch of horrible things to their country. You got it. All right. So all that I'm saying, and I think this stuff is moving very, very quickly. It is being pushed by the wealthiest people in the world who, in my view, could care less about ordinary people who want more wealth and more power. Now, they deny all that stuff. That's my view. I think we've got to slow it down and ask the question that you asked. All right, if AI can, and it can, do some good medical diagnoses, do some good blood testing, is that a good thing?

50:11It is a good thing. If you're working in a crap job in a factory, right, you know, and AI can increase worker productivity so you could work 20 hours a week rather than 40 hours a week, Is that a good thing? I think it is, et cetera, et cetera. Right, if the company then shares some of the profits that the company is making with the workers. So that's the issue. It's a very simple proposition. Who is AI and robotics going to work for? Does it work to improve human life? Or does it work to make the billionaires even richer? That's the question that we've got to focus on. Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely getting in.

50:46It's definitely, yeah. And I would urge you on the show, So keep talking about it. Bring knowledgeable people on. You know, I have my views. Other people have different views. But I'll tell you, this is monumental stuff that we are unprepared for. We need to discuss it a lot. Well, it feels like, I mean, it feels like we're not going to be, I don't know. It starts to feel a little bit hopeless that we're not going to have things that could change it down the line. Or it starts to feel like with AI stuff that we're getting there too late. But also with AI, it starts to be like, remember the internet?

51:22Remember Y2K? Like the people thought like it was going to be crazy or everybody was going to start, you know, everything was going to disappear, that a website name was going to be the biggest thing. And that never amounted really to anything. Right. So the answer is we don't know. We don't know. I mean, that's fair enough. So I'm not, you know, I'm telling you what my fears are. You know, 100%. And I think those are a lot of people's fears, you know. And you know what? They can put up an AI figure that looks exactly like you. Yeah. That sounds exactly like you that is saying something you have never said.

51:53That's already been done to me. Yeah. Okay? And it can be done pretty easily, which raises, you know, come an election time, you're going to see somebody, wow, why are they saying that? Can't vote for that guy. Turns out to be a total fraud, right? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Do you feel like it's a time where we just need to be in the streets more than ever, where people need to be revolting? Do you think it takes a revolution to change? Like, what's really going to change? It doesn't seem like voting is going to get us there. Now, I do like the idea that you have a guy like Mamdani that inspires you and makes you feel hope, and you feel like it's different, and he's against an establishment, even if it feels like it's a local one, whatever that is, that he feels like it's different, right?

52:30I agree. That is exciting. That is exhilarating. But is a guy like that, is like a Tom Sawyer like him, can he go through all the rapids of the dirty Mississippi that is fucking politics and get us to somewhere new? Mamdani, he's not a savior. He's going to be a good mayor. We need a hundred mandatis. We need what I call a political revolution. And that is, you know, what the establishment does. You know, they're very greedy people. They could care less about ordinary people. They want more wealth and power. But the ugliest thing that they do is through the media that they own, etc., etc., is they tell people that they are powerless and they have no power.

53:12And the answer is when people are organized and stand together, they do have power. And that's what we're trying to do all over this country, bring people. Not allow Trump and his friends, I don't care if you're black, you're white, you're gay, you're straight, who cares? You're Muslim, you're Jewish, whatever you may be. Let's stand together because, again, I've been all over this country. People understand that health care is a right. They want a good education system. They don't think they should be 1 % owning more wealth than the bottom, 93%. They're concerned about climate change. They don't want this country involved in endless wars.

53:46Are there disagreements on abortion and other issues? There are. But by and large, you'd be surprised. I was in, a few months ago, I went to Mingo County, West Virginia. You know where that is? I don't know where it is. I've spent some time in West Virginia, though. I like it. Yeah, I love West Virginia. It's a beautiful state. It's a poor state. I went to the county, you know, Trump won West Virginia by over 70 % of the vote, okay? I went to the county where he did the best. He got 74 % of the vote. And I went to that county precisely because he got 74%. I want to hear what people were thinking about.

54:25Walk into a meeting, wasn't the largest rally we ever did, four or 500 people in the middle of nowhere. This is nowhere. That's it. There's a picture of it. A lot of people thought you were probably giving away free Ben and Jerry's out there too. Nope. And there it is. There's a picture of the— Oh, that's nice. Yeah, a big gym there. And it turns out this is Trump country. These are decent people. They're worried about their kids. A veteran up there worried about the needs of veterans. You know, mom worried about a baby. So I'm not saying, you know, Vermont's a liberal state. West Virginia's a conservative state.

55:01I'm not saying that there aren't differences of opinion. There are. Oh, yeah. But you'd be surprised. This is the good news. That as Americans, we share a lot of common values. We know that so many people fought and died for democracy. What does democracy mean? It means that just because I'm the president, I don't have the right to shut you up. I don't have the right to politically prosecute you because you're against me. Yeah. You disagree with me? Fine. I'll argue with you. You beat me in an election? Fine. I'm unhappy. That's the way life goes, right? Mm-hmm. All right. See, the American people don't want a few billion, few people, billionaires controlling the economy.

55:37They don't want an authoritarian society. They want an economy that works for all. Those are the common threads, I think, that we can build a political movement around. Well, I don't think people care if they're, I think people less and less even associate with a party anymore. I think that's happened in the past two years. That, to me, feels like it's happened more than ever. It feels like how do, like, if you even look at the fraud case in Minneapolis, and I know it's like we don't know all the information about it, but it's like the fact that a vigilante journalist type of kid, this Nick Shirley kid, has to go door to door, and that he's even bringing that, like whether or not everything he's saying is true or factual, I don't know.

56:19My understanding on that issue, and again, I haven't studied it, I'm the senator from Vermont, But I think there was massive fraud in terms of child nutrition. Okay? That's absolutely right. I believe that was investigated under Biden's attorney general in 2021, actually. I believe dozens of people were arrested. So it is a real issue. And it's ugly and it's disgusting. Because, again, stealing money from hungry children, I don't know that you could do worse than that. Yeah, it's like how do we— But this childcare thing, I think, is largely exaggerated. I don't think, you know, I think, you know, you could take a camera and go someplace and the childcare center is closed or something.

57:03Oh, nobody's there. I don't think the childcare is an issue. The nutrition issue is real. Yeah, I think, yeah, I agree. I think there's, well, I agree that there's some parts of it that it's like, it's tough to know. And if you just see a clip, it's tough to know what the full reality is, right? I agree. But the thing to me, well, there's two things. One is that we're getting to a place where vigilante journalism, where somebody hitting the streets, knocking on doors, like you're saying, whether it's to get somebody to vote, to get somebody to open their ideas to a new thought, to make sure that something that their tax dollars is going towards is going to, like that is becoming more important than ever.

57:38And I think that's gonna start happening more than ever. But two, that it's like, that why didn't our God, why, like, it feels, it makes us feel as regular people, like, dude, we can't even trust that our government's going to figure this out for us, that there's money just falling out of the bottles here? Look, the answer is yes. And then that makes people cannot care about either party. That's what I'm saying. It's just like - But - Okay. Let's put this thing in context. Okay. The answer is what you're saying is true, period. Okay? And I'm not yelling at you about it. I'm just - I know, I know, I know.

58:10Okay, good. All right, but context. You got 340 million people in this country. Guess what? A lot of them are dishonest. Yeah. There are politicians who are dishonest. There are business people who are dishonest. There are media people who are dishonest. That is the reality. Right. I mentioned to you before, we spend$8 trillion a year on the military. Every single major defense contractor has been involved in fraud. That's what they do. The insurance companies, every day, they're ripping off people. Drug companies, lying every single day. You got fossil fuel companies saying, oh, carbon emissions don't cause climate change.

58:44Total, absolute lie. You had the tobacco companies. Oh, you can smoke nine packs a day. Ain't going to cause you. So look, fraud exists. We got to fight it wherever we can. In government, in the private sector, no argument. And you're right. When people see it in government, it discourages them. But you got to put it in a broader context. You have, for example, a social security system. 99 plus percent of the checks that go out, go out to people who need them. Okay. You know, so all that I'm saying is when you're dealing with hundreds of millions of people, yeah, you can find an aberration. you can find fraud put it into context got it understood paramount plus is the new home of ufc and the new era comes out swinging with back-to-back blockbuster events for the first time in ufc history two numbered events will take place on consecutive saturdays ufc 324 on january 24th and ufc 325 on january 31st the first card features an epic lightweight clash between justin and the ever entertaining Padre Pemblet.

59:48And UFC 325 will showcase a featherweight title rematch between Alexander Volkanovsky and Diego Lopez. Legacies are on the line, so don't miss out. Catch all the action from the Octagon and stream every numbered event and fight night live on Paramount+. Visit ParamountPlus.com slash UFC to get started. That's ParamountPlus.com slash UFC. Yep, you know, January hits and everybody's like, this is my year. I'm going to get new shoes, new legs, new lips. But then you just keep the same habits and it's the same year again. That's why you got to ask yourself, what am I going to do different? What am I really going to do this time?

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1:01:19If you've been thinking about starting something, go to shopify.com slash Theo and see what it feels like to actually be in control of your own thing. Shopify.com slash Theo. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. You know, they always say in the new year, it's like new year, new you. But I don't know, you know, I want to keep some of me, you know. I think I just want to let go of the parts of me that are weighing me down. And that's where therapy can help. You know, it could be a part of an old relationship that you're still tugging along. It could be anger at an old boss. It could be financial concerns or worries, fears.

1:02:00Could be a lot of things. Better help can help. BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the U.S. With over 30 ,000 therapists, BetterHelp is one of the world's largest online therapy platforms. Having served over 5 million people globally, you can't step into a lighter version of yourself without leaving behind what's been weighing you down. Therapy can help you clear space. It has for me. Sign up and get 10 % off at BetterHelp.com slash Theo. That's betterhelp.com slash T-H-E-O One thing that's really kind of changed a lot of people's, like young people's opinions too, I think is Trump's relationship and our funding of Israel, especially during like the Gaza conflict, right?

1:02:51It was like one of the first times in my life where you got to see, you know, you saw children getting killed. You saw a lot of, and I know that there's conflict between those, Palestine and Israel, and there's October 7th. I know the history of it. But it felt like Trump just sort of went with Netanyahu on whatever he wanted to do there. And it felt also like as a regular American, like we were supposed to be the ones to go help in some instance. I think a lot of young people are kind of discouraged about our relationship with Israel and what does that mean like especially like with AIPAC and influencing our elections and stuff like that Let me just say a word on that because it's an issue I've been deeply involved in On October 7th Hamas committed a real atrocity I mean they went in, they invaded Israel, they killed It was 1 ,200 men, women and children, a lot of kids Committed sexual abuse etc.

1:03:46Disgusting They were a terrorist organization Israel had a right to respond, like any government that's attacked. But Israel did not have the right to go to war against the entire Palestinian people. There are 2.2 million people in Gaza. That's not a lot of people, right? There are 9 million people in New York City, or 8.5 million people. That's all there are, and they're poor people. over the last several years, Israel has killed over 70 ,000, mostly women, children, and the elderly. It has injured, I think, 160 ,000 or even more than that. So over 10 % of the population has been killed or wounded.

1:04:29Again, orphan, children, the elderly. Israel stopped humanitarian aid coming in so that children were starving to death in violation of all international law. And the United States, under Biden and under Trump, continued to fund a guy who I consider to be a war criminal. Okay, war is a disgusting business. Well, the ICC voted him war. Didn't the ICC say he was a war criminal? Yes, they did. Except for America. Yeah. So look, war is a disgusting business. But out of World War II, You remember the Geneva Conventions? What they said is, look, war is disgusting, but you don't starve children in a war.

1:05:07You want to kill an enemy, you kill an enemy. It's this horrible business. We want to eliminate war. But there are rules of war, engagement. Starving children is, under any definition, a horror. And that's what happened. Bombing all of the entire—people don't realize this. Not only killing people, virtually every medical facility has been bombed. Schools have been bombed. Water systems, wastewater, the place has been laid desolate. Those are war crimes. And I did my best, and with some success, I managed to turn around. It started, the war started, almost everybody would say, oh, you know, Israel would support Israel Netanyahu.

1:05:47That has changed. And your point is very important, that a lot of the impetus for those changes in Congress came from young people. And not just, you know, people on the left. You got conservative Republican kids who are saying, you know what? Not a great idea to fund Netanyahu. How much control do you feel like? What is that relationship with Israel like? Because I think it seems that because of some of the atrocities, it makes a lot of Americans question why we fund Israel. Why do we give money to Israel? And the answer is getting back to a corrupt campaign finance system. If you check the record, and again, it's not just AIPAC.

1:06:27It is the crypto industry. It is the insurance companies. It is the drug companies. But AIPAC is a significant funder of, I would imagine, hundreds of members of Congress. So it's customary. You're there. We'll send you a check for$10 ,000. If you're a leader, we may make it over a period of years, hundreds of thousands of dollars. You're in the club. You're going to be pro-Israel. But having said that, we're seeing, for all the reasons that you have suggested, we're seeing more and more people saying, AIPAC, thank you, I don't want your money, actually, because the people in my district are not happy with going with Netanyahu is doing.

1:07:04So I think we're turning that around a little bit. But to my mind, I have long advocated not another bloody nickel to go to the Netanyahu government. But it's not just Netanyahu. Switch gear a little bit. in that part of the world, you got Saudi Arabia. You know who runs Saudi Arabia? You got a guy named Mohammed bin Salman. Remember Mohammed? According to American intelligence, Mohammed killed... Right here. Yeah, they call him Pizza Hut Head. There was a guy named Jamal Khashoggi. That didn't mean anything to you? He was a reporter that got killed. There he is. That was under his rule, right?

1:07:41That's right. So what the intelligence agency said that the leader of Saudi Arabia, Mr. Mohammed bin Salman, murdered. This guy, Khashoggi, went into an embassy someplace. Was it Turkey or somewhere? I don't know where he was. Walked into an embassy, came back, carved up, and put into a suitcase. Okay? Dismembered. He murdered him. And yet, when bin Salman came to the United States, do you remember a few months ago? White House rolled out the red carpet. We had the Marines there welcoming him. Why was that? Why does a guy who the American intelligence says is a murder, a guy, by the way, who runs the country, you try to protest this rule?

1:08:26Can't even do it, huh? Good luck to you. I mean, thousands of people are in jail. They execute people. There's no dissent. Even when Netanyahu came and he pulled his chair out for him, remember that? That's the kind of thing to people, to regular people, it's like, what are we doing? It feels like our intelligence agency does not work for us. It's not a question of intelligence. They did work. Why is it that Musk is investing huge amounts of money in Saudi Arabia? Why is it that Trump loves this guy? Why is it that Saudi Arabia is now allowing the Trump family to build, I don't know, what is it, resorts, golf courses, whatever the hell they do there?

1:08:59Okay, why is that? And the answer is, and this will upset some people, it is my view, that is the kind of government that Trump likes. It is an authoritarian government. They don't tolerate dissent. It is run by the, that family happens to be the wealthiest family in the world. Ben Salman. Ben Salman. Yeah, they are, I think, combined. Not, you know, they're probably richer than Musk. And those, and meanwhile, we are attacking Europe every day. You know, we're going to invade Greenland because Trump didn't get a prize or something. I mean, that's already crazy. That is really crazy. I mean, for a second, it is.

1:09:34It's so crazy sometimes. You got to laugh at it. You have to laugh at it. It's like we've had police officers on, and they say sometimes, you know, there'll be murders inside. There'll be victims. victims, people have been shot, horrible things. And you'll see us in the front yard laughing. And it's like, because sometimes you have to, you have to step outside of the absurdity and laugh for a second. All right. And all that I'm saying, and this ties, it's a whole longer discussion, but it used to be that the United States was a strong advocate of democracy. We became a model for countries all over the world saying we would like to be like the United States, our Constitution, our Bill of Rights, Declaration of Independence was an inspiration to a lot of people.

1:10:16And now you've got the president of the United States having his best friend, a dictator in Saudi Arabia, supporting a war criminal in Israel, Mr. Netanyahu, etc., etc. And by the way, going to war, if you like, hopefully, not literally, figuratively at least, with Europe. Why is that? Europe is a democratic government. Some are conservative, some are progressive, but they are elected by the people. Trump does not like democracy. So that worries me very, very much. All right, maybe one or two more questions if we could. Okay, great. That sounds good. Recently with the ICE raids that have happened in Minnesota, and they're happening everywhere, right?

1:10:49I mean, it's become a big thing. And for me, a lot of it is in response to, you know, there was such a border policy that was keeping, allowing a lot of extra people here, right? Extra people that were not meeting up with their, like their probation officer, They're not probation officers, but they're like attendance officers at times. That sort of situation, right? So it resulted, it seems like in this situation, we had to hire a lot extra ICE agents, some of them even unqualified. Anyway, it's left us in a unique place in America right now, but also just another place where people in the streets are having to figure things out.

1:11:21And we are all the ones fighting about it online. Let me briefly tell you my view. People agree with me. Well, not agree with me. I agree with you that our border security was weak, okay? There is no excuse, all right? My dad came from Poland. Other people's parents came from all over the world. All right, you come to it. There are reasons why people have kind of tried to slip into the United States. 99 % of the times it's poverty, it's violence, drug violence, and wherever it is, Mexico, Guatemala, or whatever. All right, but that's illegal, and it should be prohibited. We need borders, strong borders.

1:11:59We need an immigration process. In my view, okay, that's number one. number two we have between 10 and 14 million undocumented people in this country right now no one knows exactly yeah all right but the vast majority of those people work hard and obey american law right now uh during covid by the way those were the people who were working in the meatpacking plants those are the people who got a lot of the virus those are the people who died. They kept the economy going in many respects. All right. In my view, and I think what most Americans agree with, if you have lived in this country, even if you came across the border illegally, but if you have obeyed the rules of America, you haven't committed crimes, you're working hard, you're raising your family, you need a path towards citizenship as part of comprehensive immigration reform.

1:12:49And by the way, given the fact that we have worker shortages all over this country, we need those workers. Okay. So that's, I think, what we need. Especially skilled labor we need right now. That's right. That's right. And a lot of these people are doing important work, keeping the economy going. What Trump has done is in this big, beautiful bill of his, greatly expanded funding for ICE. And in my view, what he is doing is not just trying to get, and by the way, it used to be, we're trying to get the criminals out of America. Remember that? Yeah. You know, rapists and the murderers. We're well beyond that.

1:13:26Now you're knocking on doors of American citizens. You're arresting Americans. You're arresting people who have never had it. Oh, now they're finding anybody that makes good tapas. You got it. That's right. That's exactly right. Okay, and I think this is what frightens me. What Trump is using ICE for now is a domestic military operation. And it's part of this intimidation. And if you stand up, and that woman in Minnesota, Good is her name? Yeah, Renee Good. Renee Good, all right. I saw that video, you know. You don't shoot somebody in the head who is in that car. And I think it's Trump saying, I have the power, and we got domestic army.

1:14:05It's called ICE, and we're going to go out there, and we're going to arrest, and we're going to intimidate. And part of that, this is what Trumpism is about. It's intimidation. All right, you're in the media. You're CBS. You say something. I'm going to sue you, you know. Theo, you say something I don't like. I may sue you. You know, in I don't like Venezuela, I'm going to send in the troops. I got the power and I'm going to use it. I really, that scares me because that's what authoritarianism is about. So do we, should we deal with immigration through comprehensive reform? Absolutely. I think that's what the American people want.

1:14:40Do we want guys with masks around their face, dragging people out of their apartments, out of their cars? You know, I don't think so. I don't think that's what the American people want. Yeah. More and more resentment to that. Yeah, and we're in a tough spot too because we see things more now, right? We see all of it. Yes, you do. We see it. So before you would just hear about it, you would knew it was a plan. That's right. But you didn't have the visual effect of it and how the visual effect makes you feel. Cell phones have revolutionized politics and that's everybody got a cell phone can take a video.

1:15:09And I think that's one of the side effects too. Like I agree, like Trump has an authoritarian energy, right? There's this, you know, and there's positive parts about that and there's negative parts about that. I don't agree that there's anything positive about authoritarianism. Well, maybe authoritarianism. I think somebody that's like somebody that. Decisiveness. Yes. That's what I mean, man. Decisiveness. Yes. Making bold decisions. Yes. Yes. Authoritarianism disregarding the constitution and the rule of law. I'm sorry. No, I agree. I agree with that. And that's what I meant. One last question before you go, Mr.

1:15:43Sanders. And Nick, will you bring up those CEOs one more time? I just want to see the faces of those good gentlemen who have made 15 million, allegedly, I believe, and 26 million allegedly as well. Not allegedly. I think that's a fact. Oh, there you go, Bernie. I'll take that. While nurses, nurses are trying to make sure that their health care doesn't get discontinued at certain points. And just real quick, people can get involved by donating to the NYSNA Hardship Fund, and we'll put the link to that, and where you can show up to support the strike. It's going on every day right now. There's one other big concern that people have is that there is with the Epstein stuff that there are people really protecting pedophiles.

1:16:24Do you think that's as big of a thing as people think? Or do you think it's more of a political kickball that gets kicked around a lot? Hard to say. We don't know. All I can tell you is when Trump ran for office, what did he say? Going to release all, underline all the files. Yeah. Okay. I think you should. And I think the thing about the Epstein files is it touches on everything we've talked about it, is there is a sense we're living in two worlds. You go out, you know, you go through a red light or you do something stupid, get drunk and drive, you're going to be arrested, right? Right. But if you're a very, very wealthy person and you do some really disgusting things with women and girls, well, you're rich and you're powerful and you have friends, you don't have to pay the price.

1:17:05With children, that's the fear. It's like you say, we can't even protect our children. Right. And these guys get away with it. It's a two-tier system. You get punished, you're an average person, you're a billionaire, You could do horrible, disgusting things. Hey, no problem. That's what it is. So my own view is Trump said release all the files. Release all the files. We should release them. Did you, but you never knew it. But when, like it was, but you don't hear anything super that we don't know by being in, by being in your position. All you hear is speculation, you know. And I don't want to engage in that speculation.

1:17:36Just release all the information, let people decide. Let people decide. All right. Yep. One more time, bring those CEOs up. I just want to see them. And Bernie Sanders, thank you so much. and yeah, I just appreciate your time. Well, it's my pleasure and thank you very much for the work you're doing. We're trying, man. You know, I'm learning as I go. Look, Theo, the important point is you're honestly, you know, you and I can agree or not agree, but having serious discussion about serious issues is exactly what the country needs right now. Yeah. Well, thanks, man. Yeah, I do care. I know that. I know you do.

1:18:12Now I'm just floating on the breeze And I feel I'm falling like these leaves. I must be cornerstone. Oh, but when I reach that ground, I'll share this peace of mind I found. I can feel it in my bones. But it's gonna take...

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