#680 - Ultramarathoner Mark Dowdle

30:36My appetite can change drastically. And so if I had a certain, like, I'm going to eat this, this loop, and I'm going to have this amount of calorie intake, and I'm going to have this amount of sodium, to me, that would stress me out. because if it didn't go according to that exact plan, then I would think something's wrong. I'm going to fail. And it's like, we are so adaptable because we are made that way by a creator that we don't need to have everything planned out. We're not built to know all the answers. And so I approach a race very similarly to that where it's like, I have an idea and obviously we bring the kitchen as Lucy and I say we literally bring the kitchen like rice and beans and potatoes and steak and you can mix and match all of those to make a different meal and my wife has gotten really good at just predicting what based on my mood what I'm in the appetite for yeah because it's almost like you come home for dinner like a hundred times four times.

31:44So when do you even feed someone that? Who is this guy? Get a new job. You're putting us out. So that, you know, there's not a detailed plan, but anything that I, I guess the thing that I do most is like every loop I'm eating something. So even if it's a handful of chips or, you know, the best is obviously the steak and the, you know, what's it called? Orange slices and eggs and stuff like that. But that's not too heavy on your system in a race? Not really. So I train it by I'll run four or five miles to a diner and I'll shove my face full of food and then I'll run home. And I'm like, this is race prep.

32:30But you get used to it out there, you know, and that's kind of the way it is. Yeah. You were talking about like if things are too planned out that it creates, like once there's a plan And then if things deviate a little bit, it can create like a lot of uncertainty. It's almost like when you're learning to ride a bike and the wheels start wobbling. It's like this, like, oh, we're trying to like be too specific. And especially in a race when things can be different, right? Things, obstacles can come up, like you're saying. But I saw that you didn't even, you barely even made it to the race on time.

33:00Yeah. Your flight was delayed. Yeah. So that, honestly, that, and I'll talk about it. That is what gave me the confidence and further reinforced this belief that the less know what you can control and understand it's not a whole lot. You can control your energy and your attitude in a situation. And you can be prepared to handle what's coming up. But ultimately, we have far less control than we think we have. And so the race started on August 14th at 2 p.m. German time. Wow. And the Germans are there. They're freaking dialed. They don't even do a leap year. Really? I made that up. But it would seem like nine.

33:47Nine. Nine. Nine. Nine. Nine. Nine. So I had a presentation for a company that I had committed to back in March. Okay. And it was in Alexandria, Minnesota, which is two hours north of where the airport is. so that was at 8 30 in the morning our presentation get to the airport for a 1 15 flight and uh there was a layover in chicago and brother i am on the tarmac sitting in the plane for an hour and a half and i'm watching my flight to frankfurt fly away i'm like i need to be on that flight because it's a four-hour drive from frankfurt which so you just missed it i just missed it because oh the layover flight so you flew in one flew into chicago you were sitting on the tram like watching your flight to frankfurt go yes and uh so they rebooked me for a later flight but i wouldn't have been able to make it to the race in time so i'm on the phone with lucy and my friend kellen and the race director kim and we're like okay how do we make this work and uh the plan shifted from frankfurt to flying me into amsterdam which is closer to first to now where the race was.

35:03And then Kim was like, all right, the only way that we're going to get you to this race on time is if we schedule a private jet from Amsterdam to Mooster or Moonstre, and then it's an hour drive to the race. So I get on the flight, flying to Amsterdam, I'm racing through security and border patrol. And then I get to the tarmac for the private jet. and I'm explaining to the pilots who are like, who are our age. And they're just like, so excited telling them about what I'm doing there and the situation. I'm like, dude, we got to go. So we're up in the air and we're down. I'm like, man, that was, that was really fast.

35:43And we're getting off the flight and the pilot looks at me with a little smile on his face. And he's like, don't tell anybody I said this, but that 45 minute trip that it usually takes to get here we got here in 20 minutes what and he's like you gotta promise me one thing you won't quit on that course really yeah and what's crazy so kim's dad picked me up we drove an hour to the race and i was there 15 minutes before the race started was everybody already there everybody was there in the starting corral they'd already done pre-race announcements and there's a there's a photo of, uh, you know, a bunch of us, everyone's in their race gear.

36:24They got their water bottles and everything. And I'm standing in jeans with a suitcase. So I quickly got changed. I did a quick shower, got my race stuff on. And, uh, by the time I got into the corral, there was two minutes to go to the race. Did it almost add like a new freedom in a way? Oh, it did. Yeah. And you, but the fact that you're able to process that as that, that's the important thing. Like if, if when a moment it gets tough if we can like manipulate it enough to have our perspective be uh have hope and possibility in it because yeah because a lot of times it can go the other way you know you easily could have got on that other ship where it's like this is i'm not gonna be you're barking orders you're being like this and this and now it's a nightmare yeah what do i have control of that's what i kept trying to remind myself of this situation that was happening of like i don't control the flights.

37:16That's hilarious. All those guys are so happy. They're like, this guy will be here for one day. So I had put it in the back of my mind that all of those, a lot of those guys are friends. So more of like the people I didn't know, I was like, everybody's going to discount me. Everybody's going to say that I'm not going to make it that far because look at all of this. I mean, even though I was doing a decent job of controlling my emotions, it's still like an emotional roller coaster, you know? And getting to that race, it was like, this is a perfect example of how this weekend is going to go. Because if I can go through this experience with a smile and see it as every obstacle is just an opportunity to try something new and experience this adventure in a different way, that is not the way I envisioned it.

38:10It's not the way everybody else envisioned it, but who's to say this is a worse way to experience it? Yeah. That's the trap I've gotten in a lot. It's getting a little better, but that's the trap sometimes. It's like, this isn't how it's supposed to be. And you can, you can almost feel your body get like tight over it. That feeling just sucks, man. Yeah. Well, you get after a while, you just get tired of you like, this has to be a better way. And there is, you know that's a crazy thing there is a better way um but i think it takes practice and noticing when you get to those moments and then being able to start to you know kind of slowly adjust um again i'm not preaching this just kind of like yeah you just can't hold on so tight you know um because you get exhausted you hold on anything so tight you get exhausted yeah you know uh what is happening to your body during a race right so like are there parts where your body Like, are your muscles just like vibrating?

39:06Like, do your feet get swollen? Does your, like, what kind of happens as you go through? Because four days of racing is, that's a lot of racing. Like, that's the most racing, you know? Like, that's kind of the most racing. It is the most racing. So thinking about it, I kind of think about it. I'm not a big car guy, but if you take a minivan across the country, you're going to go at a different pace than if you take a Corvette. And if you're taking a Corvette, you're going to have to let that engine cool down because you're revving it so hot. And so I'm taking the minivan across the country in these races.

39:53And what I mean by that is it's like a 50-50 jog walk. Like I'm walking a lot of this race because I'm trying to play the long game of how can I slowly deteriorate my body over a long period of time instead of coming out hot and having that engine burn super quick. Right, because you just have to finish the miles within the hour. Yeah. Okay, got it. So you could do it as fast as you want. You could do 58-minute loops and just essentially walk as much as you possibly can. And there are times where I'll do that. but the body it's not so much of a like muscles will cramp or it's more of like fatigue and you know the feet start to hurt and they start to swell I mean I still got blisters all over my feet from the race because of just the constant friction so it's not like a muscle soreness it's more of like a body fatigue and everything's wearing down and the thing about this race is it was on an old military base.

40:59So 65 % of the course was this concrete. And so you're like, your bones were just like, oh, sore and achy and really feeling it. A lot of people had hip problems. And man, I saw a KT tape, which is like this tape that's supposed to like help keep things in place. One dude had it all the way up his neck and down his back. Down his neck, I'm like, brother, maybe it's time to call it. He's getting airlifted out of his chair. Like they brought in a helicopter just to lift him up. Oh, that's crazy. Dude, I would have that stuff. You would just see my eyes, dude. My whole body would be that tape, dude.

41:39I would have my whole body taped up. You'd be a mummy out there. Oh, bro. I would be just a hopeful mummy. That's the only thing I would be. So it's not like your muscles start palpitating? Or do they like, it's not like that. No. Do you get scared of your heartbeat or something? Is there any things that start to happen that you get scared of that your body, like, can my body? Like, my actual body?

42:09I haven't so far reached that point. And I think it's really important for me, the runner, to know that limit because I never want to put that responsibility on somebody else. Oh, so then your wife's responsible, your friend. Like suddenly they have to make a decision because you went too far. Yes. Like my responsibility is to know my limit. And sometimes that might be, at least in the past when I was just starting out with this, I thought my limit was one thing. And then I'd wake up the next day and I'd be like, man, I'm really disappointed that I thought that was my limit. And so it's a trial and error of trying to figure out what that limit is.

42:48but it's not like I would never want to put that responsibility on my wife to keep encouraging me to go out and then I end up in the hospital right so I haven't found that limit I don't know what it is but I have a hope and a faith that like I'll know that when it comes up I'll you know a great example is Harvey Lewis he's he's another runner he's another runner 50 years old he's a legend in the sport. He's a guy I highly respect. I love this man. He's set the world record in this format. And one of the things that he said after the race, because he bowed out at around 40 or 50 loops, and he had just got done running the Badwater 135, which is another extreme race.

43:34But he said that the only thing that would keep him in the race was his ego. And I thought that was of this race of this race he when he tapped out he's his body was just banged up from a race he did two weeks before and he had made the statement that the only thing that was keeping would have kept him in the race would have been his ego oh that's fascinating and to hear someone like that who i look up to who's a legend who can make that decision and he's vegan he's doing it all on vegetables he's doing it on vegetables and coca-cola baby dude i eat a bunch of mushrooms i I can't even, dude, I can't even make it out of my cousin's basement, dude.

44:12He's got a, he's, so after he bowed out, he gave me a bunch of his juice. And I was like, man, maybe this is what's keeping it. He's got carrot juice and beet juice. And I was like, this stuff's good. But just watching him make that decision gave me confidence of like, I don't need my ego to keep me in a race. Got it. So even if the greats are making a decision like that and their thought process can, can kind of like have a scale that understands that, then as a runner who really cares about this, hopefully I'll have the same scale, you're saying. Yeah, and exactly. And I think to further that is like, why am I out here?

44:50Am I here to win the race? Because if I'm here to win the race, then it's worth dying to win this race. But if I'm not here to win the race, if being here is something deeper and more meaningful, then the outcome of this race doesn't determine my experience here. In fact, I respect Harvey Lewis so much more because he made that decision, because he didn't put something external or materialistic above what's truly important to him. And I respect him even more for that. Yeah. Like I think a lot of like in my own life, I've had things where it's like, and I'm not trying to sound like a downer. Sometimes I talk about stuff and I think it seems like such a downer.

45:33Like my life. I'm not getting that impression you're not no okay i just try to share about like things that i think about or feel um and sometimes those things are like you know you're navigating kind of the other side of like pretending everything's awesome yeah yeah um but it's like sometimes it's like i thought yeah just that the success like that will be enough you know that and and and and with that is the focus or like you do start to lose track of the relationship that you're having with the experience, you know? Um, but I haven't done a bad job of that, but I have thought that at times like, well, if I can just prove, it's like proving myself, here's what it is.

46:14It's like proving myself, but to who, like, who was I proof? Like, cause I don't always know if it was to me. Yeah. Sometimes I don't know who it was to, but it was just like, and sometimes it could just be this societal arrow that you get put on as a child and shot through towards this prove yourself, Yeah. You know? Um, but that's something that, um, that I, that I reflect on sometimes. And then, and then I think even just like now I'm just starting to see a little bit more like, well, yeah. Who do I want to prove things to as my life goes on? You know? Um, yeah. It's just an interesting conversation.

46:49And some of it is just like, yeah, what are these conversations we have with ourselves? Cause they're, they're the most important conversation, you know? And so often I don't really have them or I don't, I don't even, I have them, but I don't even notice what they are too at times. Um, you know, it's, you have a beautiful way of creating imagery that I so much appreciate. Uh, the arrow analogy of, I think oftentimes we think that, so like that you've been shot out into the trajectory. It's like, I wasn't even the one pulling the string. Yeah. And we forget that when we take control of the bow, that's not the only arrow we have in the bag.

47:30We get to pull out another one and let go of that identity or that journey or that path. We didn't even, someone else created that path for us, you know? And so it's like, I've tried and dude, I'm not perfect at this. I fail at this. And the thing I'm appreciative is I have people that help ground me in this of like, the success is great. But ultimately, there's only one audience that matters, and that's God. And we aren't going to live up to that perfect standard. But we can do our best, but know that no matter how much success I have in running, it's not going to make me more valuable as a person.

48:13no matter how much I try and do good I'm not going to be perfect and there's no way and the thing is we don't have to be we're not called to be perfect we're called to recognize our own imperfection and strive to be a little bit better yeah yeah I mean I think it's just it's about this yeah what is this relationship that I have with myself and also having a relationship with a higher power I think helps you start to have a relationship with yourself. I think, anyway, I'm just kind of navigating some of that space, trying to navigate it at a deeper level. There was a loop out there. You've been kind of criticized online.

48:54I don't know if it's criticized, but you've been, let's say, and that's not fair to say. No, that's fair. Maybe it is. You've been documented online as having sort of this wild loop. I think it was Loop 87 where it was down to you and Elo. Yes. another competitor, and he's German? Yes, he is. And you guys were the last two left in this race. And there's a part where it's like, the camera that they have to show this, it kind of makes you wonder if it's even real or if Israel set this up. You don't know exactly what's going on. But there's this infrared camera of you two guys on a trail. I want to show it right here.

49:36It's short. That's the only thing we can tell you right now. Staying very still and very static. And there they go. Oh, no.

49:48It's one of you guys stopping when the other one stops. The lady goes, oh, no. And the way she said it, the way it connected in everybody's mind, it's the same way when you're watching one of those Animal Planet videos and the cheetah comes in and gets the other animal, like the animal that can't get out of the river. And it's like, oh, no. oh, she said it just like that. So I think that that kind of got cycled into people's energy with it. But some people would say it looks like you could be stalking or you're kind of monitoring your prey or you're pantomiming. And what was going on there? What's going on out on the course?

50:29And what psychology are people using out on the course out there, if there's any, when it comes down to just a couple competitors? Yeah, I think in the backyard, it is not simply a physical adventure or competition. It's physical, it's mental, it's emotional, it's spiritual. And the people that do the best in the sport are able to handle all four of those things. and when it gets down to you know all throughout the day everybody is playing a mind game whether they know it or not they're trying to look stronger than they are you know they're coming out and they're doing faster loops when maybe you know it's just a way to posture how strong they're doing.

51:14Hiding limps secretly vaping funny enough I did a race in June and a guy was vaping. I was like brother how are you doing this? He's like I'll tell you how I'm doing this. Yeah, dude, on cherry lime ice, dude. That's how I'm doing it. And we'd like to sponsor that guy. Yeah, see, he's a thick mod, too. It was like not like a jewel or something. It was like puffing clouds. Oh, like one of those, like the front of a train, like one of those big dogs? Jeepers. It was crazy. Bro, that dude's pushing coal through his lungs, bro. Oh, I don't want to mess with that guy. That's this guy. That's one of those West Virginia backyard runners, bro.

51:55Hey, look at that dude or woman.

52:00So Loop 87, it was an opportunity to be competitive in a way that the sport has always had, but maybe hasn't been televised in that way before. And I think the thing I go back to is like, you know, you don't tell Dennis Rodman how to play basketball. Yeah. You prepare to play Dennis Rodman. and I from all of the sports that I've ever played I've always been a guy who likes to use my energy as a way to celebrate the activity that I'm doing and use competitive advantages here and there to gain an advantage and that's really all it was it was uh you know I saw him sprint out of the gate, sort of trying to show me how strong he was.

52:52And I said, I'm right here with you. And were you guys talking? Does he speak English? He speaks a little bit of English. Okay. But there was obviously, even if there's not verbal communication, there's like, communication of ambiance or peacocking in a way. There's like that kind of energy, right? Yeah, there was, I mean, he was, I spoke no words to him out there on that loop. In fact, I think him and I had one conversation all day, and that was when there were four or five people left, and I was like, hey, this is awesome that we're still here. We just made it three days of running. But out on that loop, yeah, there were no words exchanged from me on my end.

53:31He did sort of say like, what the heck are you doing? And his, I think, way of trying to show his strength was speeding up. Like he's a really fast runner. And I think he tried to break me off in that moment. And that was his form of communication to me that, okay, if we're playing this game, you're going to have to keep up with me. And I played that game back with him. And so your energy was just what? Like I'm right here still? Yeah, I'm right here. I can run fast loops too. Dude, it reminds me like I'm friends with this UFC fighter, Dustin Poirier. He's, um, and one thing that I always had, like, one thing I like that he does is when he's, even if he's over on his side during the, like, uh, on the breaks in between the rounds, even if he rests with his hands on his knees, he always is looking over at his opponent.

54:27And I think about that every time, like I'm in the gym, whatever I'm doing, like, if I start to break down, like rest a little bit, like just to pick my own stature back up. Sure. Just to remind myself, just a physical reminder of like, I'm going to keep going. Right. he always does that yeah I think that seems normal to me that people do that kind of stuff I mean have you seen it a lot out there with other racers like when you guys get down to just two guys yeah there's all like Harvey and I we've raced against each other three times now this year and I was at a race here in Franklin at the end of June called the Mid-State Mile it's a one mile loop every 20 minutes until one person's left let me say it again And it's a one mile loop.

55:08Every 20 minutes. Every 20 minutes until one person's left. Yeah, so it's still that format, but like not four miles every hour, one mile every 20 minutes. But you must get a ton of entrance in that. Into that one? Well, the kicker with this one is it's in Franklin and there's 340 feet of elevation per loop. So you're climbing this massive hill and then you're descending down and then you're climbing another massive hill and you're descending down. So it's super challenging. And that's the one where I saw the dude puffing clouds. That's what was blowing my mind because it wasn't like a flat course where it's a friendly jog.

55:41It was like, you're huffing and puffing up this hill. I'm like, how are you doing this? Dude, it's just somebody from Goodlettsville, dude. That's all it is, bro. It's chill. But Harvey would do things where he would sprint out. Okay. He would sprint out of the gate. And that was his way of saying, I could be here all day. Got it. And so there's all this little stuff that's going on. Crews are trying to gather information from people. you know all this little stuff every movement and posture that you have out there is you knowingly or unknowingly sending a signal to yourself and to other people how you're doing oh that's the world too and especially if you are like i'll notice if i do fasting dude on the third day dude i can tell you if you're gonna have grandchildren or not right you just know what's go.

56:33Like every little thing means something like, like communication is so much easier because it's, uh, it doesn't feel sedated by kind of food and stuff like that. Does it feel like a level like that when you get to like, when you're running at like after you've been running for so long, does everything feel like very acute and real or does it feel just bizarre? Exactly how you feel on day three is how it feels on day three and four for me out on the course. I don't understand the last two loops of the course and after the race, the communication that I was having with my team. And then, you know, I was talking to everybody about my race afterwards and gave this speech.

57:19None of that was me. I have no idea where it came from. I say it was the Holy Spirit because I could not think straight out there. But there was this general peace that I had not experienced really in any place in my life. And it wasn't like I was thinking. I was just experiencing and living in that moment without any expectation or pressure or desire to leave that spot. I just wanted to be right there. It was like I could feel the experience and feel the importance of it, but also step outside. I've heard comedians talk about this. Maybe you've experienced this. I'm sure you have. But like where you're on stage and you're almost seeing yourself have the experience and it's not affecting you from like a negative.

58:12Like it's not getting into your subconscious. Like you're experiencing it and you're aware of the experience and how beautiful it is. But you're still in it. And you're still way in it. Yeah. And it's like, oh, like. That's pretty cool. It's awesome. That's a twofer. Yeah. Yeah, dude. Hey, it's Kelly Rowland. You may not know this, but I have eczema. So I get how it can steal your time. But why let eczema take over when you can talk to your doctor about EBCLIS? EBCLIS, Lubrikizumab LBKZ, a 250 milligram per two milliliter injection, is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema.

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1:01:04Thank you. We hear a lot about hallucinations while running, actually. Have you experienced some of that? I have, yes. You have? Yeah. Anything good? I saw teddy bears hanging from a tree one time. I saw some Native Americans. I saw... there was a race where there was a road loop and there was an entire middle school of kids sitting cross-legged, cheering me on, putting their hand out for a high five. No way. It was wild. Are you a Harry Potter guy? Enough, yeah. So you know those big spiders? Yes. There was one race where it was through a tunnel of trees and all of the trees started to turn into these massive spiders.

1:02:00It was nuts. God. It was, you know, yeah, that, exactly. Oh, yeah, that's them Snoop dogs right there. Dude, that's that Tim Burton. That's beautiful. Wow. But then there was like out in Germany, it wasn't like a physical depiction of anything like that. it just felt like I had been, which is weird to say, because I was on that course for days on end, but it like felt like I had been on that course before. Like this nostalgia feeling was not like something in passing. It was like this constant state of nostalgia of like, I've been here before. I've seen this course before and I couldn't explain it.

1:02:47Dude, I think everybody else could explained that you just you just run around it 300 times yeah yeah it's understandable but yeah i mean that's yeah um can you bring up different hallucinative experiences that happened with uh people was jogging of the strange and intriguing world of running hallucinations i just want to get a few of these out. Emily Foy, Ultra Trail du Mont Blanc. It says, I was filling up my water bottle from a sheep's trough. Red flag. I think that caused the hallucinations. I mean, that's a good call, dude. First of all, if I'm drinking water with sheep, I'm already not doing good.

1:03:37I was filling up my water bottle from a sheep's trough on the mountain at mile 70. I recalled when I saw tiny severed heads at the bottom. I looked around at my fellow runners expecting a similar reaction and panic, but they were all utterly calm, filling bottles and chatting. Oh, that would have pissed me off the most. I'm staring at baby heads in a trough and you're over there just - Giggling. Yeah, just talking about how the Vikings are doing. Get out of town. Try as I might, I couldn't make the heads turn into stones, which my rational mind knew they must be. I couldn't stomach drinking, turned around, apologized to a golden retriever, aka a pile of dried grass, and I tripped over and continued up the mountain.

1:04:16It was broad daylight. That's that free shit I'm trying to get on. This is another one. Jen Scottney, North Traverse Race. I was 120 miles into a 190-mile race and hadn't slept. Going into the second night, I started hallucinating really badly when it got dark. My head torch was bouncing light onto the limestone walls where cats and human faces were appearing. The night was so clear the stars were twinkling all around, but I was hallucinating that they were around my shoulders. On my own at 2 a.m., everyone else tucked up in bed, and here I was in the Yorkshire Dales shouting at the stars to get back into the sky.

1:04:52That's mad. Let me see one more here. This is John Hunt. I was going into the second night, so it was pretty wasted by then, and I was on a country road. This is in Thames. I was on a country road with trees either side. I was about 150 miles in and remember thinking the trees looked really strange with weird bits hanging down. So I stopped and had a closer look. To my amazement, it looked like someone else had strung up thousands of rotisserie chickens as far as the eye could see. I was so confused by it that I took a closer look and went to grab one. Alas, it was just a leaf. Huh. Dude, one time I was with my ex-girlfriend and we went bike riding.

1:05:33This was in Germany. and dude we went in this park and some dude he was like a i guess like a wiener guy or whatever he was standing in the park and like he had he had no clothes on right and he was like this tall white guy he was like and he was like kind of spinning his wiener at us dude and dude this is the worst part her freaking bike broke down right there and i'm like oh and i thought she was kind of doing it on purpose just to like be around this guy like not around this guy's wiener but like to see it more or whatever. And then the bike was like really broke, dude. And I'm like trying to like, so then we had to like walk this bike, but the back tire wouldn't move.

1:06:09So we had to like drag, walk this bike past some dude, like legitimately spinning his wiener, like at a decent gait. Like creating vortex around that thing. Like I would say this, a butterfly couldn't land on it, right? A hummingbird couldn't even land on it, probably. So that's some, but anyway, I don't know why I told you that. So that's why I don't run. But anyway, I just wanted to kind of get that out there. Are there people that, who, who does this sport, Mark? Like, is it business guys that just are looking or become like, end up making a ton of money and they're looking for something new to do, right?

1:06:54Is it like, is it a certain body type? Like who were the, Are there like stereotypes? And not to say there's anything wrong with that. We're all somewhat of a stereotype. Are there stereotypes that are out there kind of, do you see? Yes and no. There's a few different stereotypes. I guess like the business person who's that go-getter that they have to do everything a million miles an hour. That's a person that's out there is like, I'm an achiever. I'm going to go achieve this other thing in this world. called running and ultra running. There's also people that, you know, they struggled. It's a big place of recovery.

1:07:38People that have struggled with addiction, alcohol, and they have that addictive personality. And running has been the cure for them to not have that outlet. You know, running does a great job of spiritually lifting you from maybe the burdens of everyday life. and so I think a lot of people find refuge in that and you know and there's people people like me who who really have this desire to see what they're capable of and I think you know Ryan the driver he he asked a really great question yesterday and it was on this same line of thinking of do you think anybody is capable of what you did out there I think the short answer is it depends because there's a guy, Mike Egan, who is in a wheelchair.

1:08:35He's lost both of his legs because he was in service for the United States. And he did the BPN Go One More, which I was doing in April. And he did this last soul race in Germany. And he's in a wheelchair the whole time. Shout out Mike. If you would have told me before I ever met Mike, what do I think he's capable of? Based on my own imperfections, I would have said, how can he go more than a few loops? And then I witnessed him persevere and overcome every obstacle on that course until rain totally destroyed it in the one in April. And he was dragging his wheelchair. Just the heart of a lion. And he comes out in this race.

1:09:21He sets a PR. I think he went 31 or 32 hours at this course. No way. Let's go, Mike. And so I see a man who does not allow his circumstance or the things that have happened to him limit his belief about who he can become. Amen. And so I think anybody who has that belief about who they are, like I look up to Mike so much because he has shown me what is possible when you face extreme obstacle. And so I think anybody who has that belief about themselves, then they can, as Mike said, find peace in the storm because they're willing to put themselves out there no matter what. And so I think anybody who has that ability to look at life as this is not happening to me, this is happening for me, I'm going to figure it out.

1:10:10And Mike always says, forward, onward, onward we go through the obstacle. And that's who I think is like, that's who it attracts at the end of the day is people who want to find out who they are. Amen, dude. Wow, that's fascinating. And so even like if the course is uneven and stuff, he still manages it. Yeah, he finds a way. God. And what's funny about this too is Harvey, gosh, Harvey's a great guy. I could talk about him all day, but in the midst of what happened, the trail, so 40 % of it was trail and there were rocks all over it. And Mike was having a hard time going from the concrete to the rocky trail.

1:10:48so over the course of you know 40 hours Harvey got a group of us together and would take one rock off the course every loop so Harvey picked up like 250 rocks over the course of his just trying to make it more fair make it easier for Mike right and make it more fair really yeah because it's kind of like dude yeah have him like give him at least every now and then give him a little side alley. You know what I'm saying? The guy's earned it. Give him an HOV line. Gosh, I can't imagine how difficult that is. Wow, that's fascinating, man. But like that guy is the man. Right. Thank you for sharing about him.

1:11:29Yeah, can you pull that article up again, Trevin, please? A Texas-based veteran now holds the Guinness World Record for most miles covered in a wheelchair in 24 hours. On November 10th, 2025, Mike Egan, a bilateral amputee and wheelchair user, and what does bilateral mean? It means, I don't know. I don't know. Both legs? Yes, I don't know, but covered 152.37 miles over 21 hours. Wow. Completing 720 rotations around the course at Morgan's Wonderland Sports Complex in San Antonio with his family there to support. Let's go. Oh, and he has two children, too. That's awesome. Yeah. He's a former Marine, man.

1:12:10Thank you for your service, dude. Wow. Mike Egan. Oh, look at him there with that stash rocking bro mikey got that word curtain on him let's do it dude bro thank you bro thanks for sharing about him yeah um i want to get into like what are some of the different types of courses that they have in backyard running like what are some of the tougher ones or more unique ones just so that uh listeners can understand like what backyard ultras are like yeah yeah the backyard ultra space is still growing um one of the more tougher courses is the original one that happens in bell buckle right it's bell buckle bell buckle here in tennessee yeah so it's called big's backyard the originator laz put it on i think in his backyard and it takes place every year it's i think 400 feet of elevation per loop and so there's courses that, you know, I know of one that I do in Wausau, Wisconsin, that's 500 or 610 feet of elevation per loop.

1:13:15So elevation adds a ton of... Oh, it makes it so, so much more challenging. So much more challenging. So you could have like a flat course like BPN or this course in Germany where it's going to be demanding for different things. Like a flat course, you're not changing your running motion very much. So it's just staying in one place for a long period of time. And that causes friction there. But then there's higher elevation courses where the race might not go as long, but you're climbing, you know, essentially Mount Everest in 24 hours and your quads are banged up. Your hamstrings are banged up.

1:13:52Your muscles are a lot more banged up. And the more this sport grows, the more we're going to see challenges like, hey man, come to Minnesota in January. Let's see what a course looks like going across a frozen lake, you know, or go to Arizona in, you know, June or July, which might be a little bit dangerous, but you'll, I think what we'll start to see more of is like what you see in motocross or some of these other sports where the temperature and environment you're in will dictate the course environment, which will determine what strengths and weaknesses an athlete truly has. Wow. So it's going to start to see more strengths and weaknesses, a disparity of strengths and weaknesses because more variables will be introduced.

1:14:41Ooh, that's going to be interesting. So we're still on the cusp of what that could be, but a lot of the courses generally are probably within 100 to 300 feet of elevation per loop. Got it. And what are some of the severe temperatures that you've already been in? Have you been in any snow ones or whatever? Not in the backyard. I did a race in January called the Arrowhead 135, and that's a historic Minnesota race. Takes place in International Falls, Minnesota, which is right on the border of Canada. Is that by Lake Itasca at all? It's near there. Near there. because the Mississippi River starts right up there.

1:15:16You can jump right across it. Yeah, you could. Dude, some lady took me there one time. She was awesome. I don't know if she listens sometimes. And I won't say her name, but she took me there one time and let me jump over the river, which was pretty cool. Yeah, because I've eaten things out of that river. Out of the Mississippi River? Yeah. Hopefully more upstream. Yeah. I mean, I've had some. Downstream, it gets a little bit. I mean, look, I put my tongue downstream a few times, brother. It doesn't end well, you know? So one day at a time. Oh, that's you right there. Yeah. Doing ice bearding. So it's a race.

1:15:56You run 135 miles. You got to carry a bunch of supplies on you. Okay. On a sled. And the temperature this year was minus 30 degrees at the start line Fahrenheit. And how many miles is that? That's 135. So that took 30. Oh, so that has a finish line? That has a finish line. So I haven't done any extreme weather in the backyard. Got it. But I have experience doing extreme weather, at least in this capacity. So wait, that was negative 30 degrees? What you just saw was from last year's race, which was 15 to 20 degrees. This year's race was minus 30 degrees. So I've done it twice. And how much does that affect things, that weather difference?

1:16:37Do you even notice it after the beginning? Or what is that like? Or is it more of just a visual effect? Well, the warmer race, I think, is more difficult because the snow becomes like sand. So it's hard to, your feet kind of move around. And it's nice because you're not as concerned about frostbite. But when it's super cold, it's like concrete running on, like a softer concrete. But it feels much better to run on. But man, my hands were getting cold. I was shoving them in my pants all race long, just trying to keep them warm. And it really becomes a how can I moderate the temperature of my body so that I'm not dying out here type of thing.

1:17:15And does it ever get – you ever run so much it just feels like homoerotic or anything out there? Like does things start to happen where you're like I just ran like out of my own sexuality or something? You know what I'm saying? How weird does things get like that like mentally? Yeah, it never turns sexual in my mind. But that's something I can think about on my next one and get back to you on. If you're really interested about that. get back to me. I'm just wondering like if you're out there. I don't see guys shaking their wiener like you do when you run, dude. Bro, it was one guy and I think my girlfriend even set it up or whatever.

1:17:49Anyway, I don't even know what we're talking about. Yeah, I just didn't know because sometimes at certain altitudes is something people are more likely to be gay. Different things can happen. I didn't know if people can run so much that you could like morph or whatever. uh oh i want to get a little bit of your backstory um so you you were an all-state high school athlete and you played college football yep when did running start for you yeah yeah so i played collegiate football and uh lacrosse um and running started for me the spring of my senior year when it was club lacrosse we actually played in nashville we played three games Let's go.

1:18:28And we lost two out of the three games. One of them was to good old Kennesaw State. Nuh-uh. Yeah. From Georgia? Yeah. If that's where Kennesaw State's from. I don't know where it's from. But, hey, we'll go with it. Kennesaw State, Georgia. And we never lost to Kennesaw State in our program's history. So it was a tough one. And it was the first game of the weekend. But we're, you know, bussing back. It's a 24-hour bus ride back. and I'm sitting in the back of the bus like, we suck, I suck, we're not going anywhere, throwing a pity party. And my brother sent me the Joe Rogan, David Goggins podcast.

1:19:08And I'm just listening to this man defecate down the back of his leg, pissing blood, and he's getting up and he's running another 30 miles to complete a 100-mile run around a track. And it was the first time it had planted a seed in my mind about some person who was not allowing their situation to have them throw a pity party. Like, we lost the first two games of the year. We still had a whole season ahead of us, and I'm listening to this man break himself and not make an excuse about it. So the first thing I did when we got back at 3 in the morning was I went out for a run. And that sort of just continued over the spring, and when I was no longer an athlete when I graduated school, truthfully, playing football and lacrosse was a great escape for me to take out the anger that I had.

1:20:01I struggled a little bit with alcohol in college of just using it as a coping mechanism for not being able to sift through my emotional state. And it would be this cycle that I was living in was get drunk on a Saturday night, wake up with regret and shame walk around with that regret and shame not want to deal with that bottle it up come to saturday game day and flick that pain on somebody else so that i didn't have to feel it anymore and then celebrate that by more drinking and that was just the loop that i was living in yeah eventually alcohol and the decisions i was making came to a point i was like I either need to make a change or I need to, it was just a point where I was like, dude, I need to figure out my life.

1:20:52And then after school and I had no other thing to keep me occupied outside of work and life, running was a thing that was there for me. And I just noticed early on that the more I would run, the more I would come back from a run and I would feel that heaviness in my chest feel almost like gone. Like the weight was off my shoulders. I wasn't carrying around that anger. And so early on for me, running was this tool for me to kind of work through a lot of the emotional stuff that I was going through because it was, there was this, this practical imagery that was going on is like the more I ran and the more I moved forward while I was thinking about the issues and the problems in my life, it was like I was moving forward mentally through them.

1:21:47and also physically through them because I was thinking about them as I was moving on my run. And so it allowed me to kind of work through things and leave behind stuff that I wasn't as proud of and move forward through things that I wanted to become, ideas and conversations and just a life I wanted to live coming out of college. Yeah. When you get to the end of a run, the thoughts and feelings that you have are good. So it's almost like you like have, you've just sifted through and you're holding things that are good. Like you have, you're excited. You call somebody like I'll whistle at somebody's cat or whatever.

1:22:25Like you'll do all kinds of shit after a run. You're fucking rocking. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. You're left with, you've kind of run into the best parts of you. Yeah. Um, okay. Sorry. Go on. No, that's a, so that was it. That's it. Like that's, that was the start of it. It was just like, so that's how it started. Yeah. And then, and then, you know, I signed up for a marathon And I think the competitor in me was like, all right, I did a marathon. Can I do 30 miles? Can I do 50 miles? And started doing some charity runs to raise money and awareness for a nonprofit for Love Like Lori Legacy. Yeah, I saw it was one of your friend's mothers that passed away.

1:23:04Yeah, she passed away from pancreatic cancer in 2020. What's her name? Lori. Lori Weber. Lori Weber. Yeah. What was the guy's name? Blake. Blake Weber. Yeah. And that, man, I think that was a real turning point for me in how I related to running and how I could basically have a relationship with this sport that was outside of outcomes and rewards because that's all I focused on in college. Like, the goal is to win a national championship. If we didn't win a national championship, I was not worthy. We never won a national championship. So does that mean, like, I'm going the rest of my life thinking that I'm not worthy of anything because I didn't get an outcome.

1:23:45And through these Love Like Lori runs, it was beautiful to be able to, I don't know what it's like to lose my mom. I'll never know what that feels like, at least up until now, right? And at least not in the way that Blake lost his mom. And there's a lot of pain and a lot of hurt and a lot of working through emotional stuff where through these runs, we would get to walk and run side by side. And I would experience this physical pain that would force me to go internal and kind of deal with it that way. And at the same time, walk alongside a brother who was also going through a different type of pain.

1:24:29And it was almost a point where we can now connect on how to talk and move through this pain together, even though they're different things, because pain, pain is pain, right? If you're hurt, that's all you're experiencing. That's all like, but we are connected by pain in a way where we can start to, like, if I'm hurting, I'm better able to understand if you're hurting. If I've never experienced pain or hurt, I don't, I don't know how to relate to you, but when we can experience it together and be open and vulnerable about what we're going through and what we're struggling with, it was a phenomenal opportunity to see pain as not something to avoid, but to really like, all right, let's pull up our sleeves and like, let's, let's, yeah, let's, let's figure out what this means.

1:25:16Amen, dude. Yeah, man. Going on, like I'll go on a walk with a friend or something like that. And it's like, that's when we get the most like, you know, it's like when you're doing it, just something in action. And they say our body like holds so much of our pain. So of course, if you're taking some action that is starting to call it that will like in turn like make your body have to process some pain then it makes sense that um it could also process some of the pain that's actual emotional pain that's being held in yeah you know i never really i don't know if there's science behind that but i'm sure that there is um but anyway also i don't know exactly what i'm about, but I never have either.

1:25:56Um, I've heard you talk about using journaling as like a, um, I don't want to say modality. I don't know what that word means, but I think I do. But as like a, I guess it almost is like a written, like a confidant on your journey. Like I've just heard you talk a lot about journaling and how you use it and how you've used it on your journey of, of like kind of self-discovery. Sure. Can you kind of take me through some of that? Like what that experience has been like? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, so when I was going through, I talked about that moment in college where I had to reevaluate and actually take a look at, maybe it's not everyone else, maybe it's not every situation, it's me and my actions.

1:26:38I was nudged by our athletic trainer to go see a sports psychiatrist that would come to campus on Thursdays. And her practice for me was to get a journal and start writing in it. and what I noticed that I've been able to go back and read and see the process of my thoughts over a period of time is how hard I was on myself how the voice for me back in the day was like you idiot you effing failure how could you you said you weren't going to do this thing and you it again. And like, I would, I was so adamant about like, okay, I'm not going, you know, college kid create the biggest sacrifice I made in college was, uh, my junior year for New Year's Eve.

1:27:27I said, I wasn't going to drink hard alcohol, but I was going to drink beer, man. Like, cause yeah, like I'll make a sacrifice, but not one that's enough where it's truly a sacrifice. Got it. And, you know, maybe, uh, maybe three months of like doing a good job on that. I'd have some hard alcohol and I would just beat myself up over it. Like, I can't believe you did this again, blah, blah, blah. And I guess the more I wrote, the more I was able to understand what voice was playing in my head and recognize that, dude, maybe this isn't even my, like, why would I talk to myself this way? I wouldn't talk to you this way.

1:28:07I wouldn't talk to a friend this way. And so to see it all laid out and then to understand one, I'm not going to be perfect. Perfection is not something I can achieve. So I have to stop trying to chase that. It's not possible. And if I'm ever going to grow as a person, I have to release myself of this pressure of the need to be perfect or even the thought that I can be. Not possible. Yeah, dude. And when I hold myself to that, I'm holding other people to that. And it keeps me away from people. It keeps me away from like, it keeps me away from so many things, you know? Cause you're always in this place of like, there's some of like, uh, this isn't enough or something could be neat.

1:28:48Something I know something needs to be different. Yeah. Well, and I think about the relationship with my life, the more, the times we've grown the most is when we've worked through conflict, the imperfections and it's like the imperfections are beautiful they allow us to see ourselves in a new way and when we can allow somebody into that experience we can help each other find the best parts of who we are through our imperfections and so journaling has been a really phenomenal practice for me to one allow the thoughts whether they're positive or negative to get down on something. So they're not stuck in my head, rattling around, controlling, like I want to be present as much as I possibly can.

1:29:33And if I got all these thoughts in my head, even if they're like really cool ideas, they're stuck in there and I want to get them out so I can just leave them there and I can come back to them at a later time. So journaling has just helped me navigate a lot of the emotional stuff that's going on and also put together plans of who I want to become. like okay if I know this isn't the voice I want what type of voice do I want to have internally who do I want to let into my life that uh is is going to hold me accountable but also uh help encourage me and build me up and how can I be that way for other people like who have I been neglecting all these like just life stuff there's you know just these are good questions man yeah dude I thought I was like I'm working with my sponsor right now and I have to write like a fears list like things that I'm afraid of dude and it's crazy dude like the things that I'm really afraid of you know you don't have to talk about them specifically but I would never ask you to do that but do you are you is there a fear that you have of actually pointing to the deep fears that you have like I say they're like I can get that way myself that's why I ask is like almost afraid to know the thing you're most afraid of because then it's there.

1:30:56Oh, wow. Does that make sense? Like, would I even be brave enough to write that thing I'm most afraid of? Even if it's just for you. Right. Cause then it's still, it's right. Then you can't avoid it anymore. That's where I get to. Dang. What are your thoughts on that? That's fricking wild. Like if there's a tiger behind these like dangerous kittens I've written down, dude, like if there's a mama cat in the back, bro bro if there is i'm not gonna make it bro i wrote down like a lot of mine are like um i'm trying to think some of them are like kind of topical type things like i'm afraid i'm ugly i'm afraid i don't like like um i'll never uh have like the physique that i want or i'm afraid um you know uh i'm afraid i'm not gonna be able to like uh figure out my own stuff to be able to be like successful in a marriage, you know?

1:31:54Um, and some of them aren't as strong as they used to be, but some of like, I mean, I probably have like 20 more. I think I wrote down like maybe 25 things that I'm really afraid of. Let me think of what's a real, real one. Um,

1:32:11you know what I've always been afraid of, man? I've always been afraid of that. I'm wasting everybody's time. And I don't even know where that comes from, but it makes everything else tough because it makes everything else feel like it has to happen fast. I've always been afraid of that. And I don't even know if it's a, I write it as a fear and maybe it shouldn't have been written down as a fear, but it was just like a thing, but it's like something that like, yeah, when I put it together, I'm always afraid that I've been wasting somebody's time. My whole life I felt like there's this to-do, like I got given a to-do list at like six days old and there's like 200 million things on it.

1:32:49And I'm, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like it's an invisible, like, like, oh, you're late. Like my whole life that's been like somebody like this in the distance. And it's like, what? But, you know, I don't know. So that's probably a bit like, yeah. Or maybe I'm afraid I'm wasting their attention. maybe that's part of it too yeah like if you're gonna give me your attention i don't want to waste it so that puts like a lot of like i think probably especially with dating when i was when i was like when i was in high school college like that put a ton of like in my 20s it put a ton of energy on that because it was like i don't want to wait you know so then you got to figure everything out pretty quick and that doesn't allow for like anything to really you know kind of grow it makes things hectic.

1:33:37I don't know. I'm just thinking some of this, I'm just thinking out loud. Yeah. One thing that I've noticed through this conversation that I really appreciate about you is you're unafraid, whether you're doing it on purpose or not, of like speaking out loud and working through these thoughts in real time. I, there's no expectation that you need to have the perfect answer or like, man, you're working through this thought. And I've noticed a few times you said like, I don't know anything, you know, a lot in the way that you think through life that in and of itself is extremely valuable. So I just want to encourage you in that.

1:34:15Thanks like that. That is super. It's helpful for me to recognize that I don't need to have all the answers. Yeah. I think I get, I would get afraid to speak cause I didn't know, you know, I think at times or you have to put like, I don't know, like sometimes, yeah, you feel like you're like, well, thanks for saying that, dude. Yeah. Yeah. I used to, I feel like I was better at doing that. I used to feel, I think, um, even with podcasting, I think it started to get like, you know, you have a pressure to want to do good or to be, be at a certain level. And so I think sometimes I got, you know, I don't know.

1:34:50Yeah. Maybe sometimes at times I was like, oh, well, I need to be able to know more than, you know? What do we know about anything though? And it's our first time, dude. How often, bro, my friend Megan, she's a therapist up in Portland and she's always like, it's our first time. It's like, this is our first time being alive. Like that we know of, you know what I'm saying? And we're like, we're all under so much expectation. but our society puts it on us and then we you know some of us do but yeah it's like yeah i used to do a better um at times i've done a i've done i feel like i've been a little more patient with my own thought process and i used to enjoy that yeah and so thanks for the reminder to even like yeah it's a good thing i i want to get back to that a little bit more like being like hey i'm okay i'm just figuring this out yeah you know that's pretty cool it is pretty cool um um what i want to talk to you about quitting okay you had like i'm paraphrasing here but i've told this to like 10 people in the past week i'm like he says that when he's thinking about quitting he'll think of himself like two days later or something in in like a comfortable space with as much food and as much like love and consent and whatever he needs will all be there and and he asked that person, should I quit?

1:36:19What do you say? Yeah, I just forecast that comfortable version of myself that's out of the painful experience, and I ask that version of myself, would he be proud of the effort that I put in if I stepped off the course right now? I think more often, at least every time I've asked that question, I can't honestly look at that person and say, you did everything you could out here. And it's my way of removing myself from the pain because the pain and the discomfort is a narrative. It's this thing that's trying, we crave comfort. We crave to get out of discomfort. It's hard for us to do that. and even when we're in the midst of it, it's like that's when it's most difficult.

1:37:14So I try and pull myself out of it. So you'll be running and you'll have this, will you actively take a process of thinking? Bro, I will lay down on the course and I will put my head in my arm and I will visualize myself that, like whether it's a hotel, whether it's a friend's house, I will visualize myself there. Could be a spa. Yeah, it could be a spa. and I'll just ask that version, like, hey, are we doing everything we can out here? And the answer is always no, you have more in you. Like, that version would say, dude, get up and keep moving. That version is also just chilling at the house, dude.

1:38:00I respect that version, and I know what you're saying, but in a physical way, that version is like, but no I hear what you're saying though like yeah with that version like is that version gonna just to have a but the biggest thing is just having that communication yeah like there's an in two days there's another me yes that's in a different space and how does he view what's going on here because it's like it's a different version but it's the same version yeah that version still has to live with the decision that this version makes. Yeah. And dude, that's life. That's life. That's life. It's like whenever we're confronted with a difficult decision, if you can pull yourself out, whatever you decide to do, the future you has to deal with those decisions.

1:38:47As long as you can be proud of it, no matter what the outcome is, you're good. Have you developed a real, because I'm sure you probably face a lot of moments that you want to quit, right? have you developed like a relationship with the part of you that wants to quit like i'm saying does that voice come along so much because like say i'll be lifting weights and like even this morning i i i got up real early and i got my got my stuff done and um i noticed like okay there's this early voice in me i want to quit stop and i'm like sometimes i can just breeze right through that voice i know that's just bullshit that's a hitchhiker that guy doesn't even, that voice doesn't even have a home.

1:39:29That thing is just some lame ass quitter voice out here yet with a thumb up, right? That voice isn't shit. That voice just like, it's eating chips, first of all. So I know, but then I'll start to notice, I'll just start to notice some of the secondary ones. And so I don't like, but I'm at least now I can notice that first one. It's just like, it's not, it's total like placebo. But what are the ones that you know, notice because you've gone to some depths that are pretty intense to keep going. Yeah. So very similar to you, like that, those first 24 hours, that voice and that person that wants me to quit is like that comfort quit where it's like, eh, I haven't really invested enough.

1:40:12And you know, let's just like, let's just step off. But it's easier in a way to get over that. Cause you sort of, you can call out the BS. You see it. Like, like you said, it's a hitchhiker. It's not, doesn't have a home. The deeper you go in, the more I feel it is a direct confrontation with who I am at my core. And so the deeper you go, the more difficult I feel like it is to sift through am I actually making an excuse in this moment or is this something I seriously need to consider because I'm going real deep and dark in this moment. I don't see it necessarily as like a psycho where I'm seeing like two versions of myself in my mind, but more, can I take one step?

1:41:06Like, can I just sit in this painful experience and know through experience that there is light on the other side of this darkness? and have faith, have faith that I will get there as long as I continue to move forward. And so it's more of just combating that narrative and all the other narratives that go on and say, I'm looking at my feet right now. If my feet are moving forward, that is evidence that the story in my mind is not the full truth. Can I just keep looking at my feet move forward? And when you do that sometimes out there? You'll just sit there and watch them move forward. I'll just watch and move forward.

1:41:49Even if the inside of you in your head is like, I can't do it. Your feet are saying we can do it. Wow. Because usually it feels like it's the other way around when you quit. In what way? Like, isn't it like, sometimes it'll be my brain. Oh, no, maybe not. Well, your body like breaking down and. But that's a real quit. That's like you can't do it. Yeah. Dude, that's crazy, bro. So you just keep proving to yourself with one next step that you can until your brain follows suit again. Yeah. And it'll come back around. Like, yeah, the narrative will be like, oh, he's proved it over the last 20 hours.

1:42:25We can stop feeding him this BS. It doesn't mean that you've completely overcome it. It might come back around, but it is it's that right there. It's like, okay. And like every step, it's boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. So it's like constant evidence. It's constant evidence. It's not until I make this loop, I'll be able to prove to myself that I can go. It's how can I break it down so that I'm giving myself evidence so fast that the narrative doesn't have an opportunity to like build on itself. Oh, that's wild. Yeah, because sometimes that thing is so strong. you need that much evidence. Yes.

1:43:07Yeah, and they say that in like recovery programs all the time. They say like you can't think your way in the right action, but you can act your way in the right thinking. Yes. And it just makes me think of that. Yeah. Can I just take one more step in this direction? Huh. Yeah, I can. Yeah. And most of the time that's the answer is yeah, I can. What are you not good at, Mark? Because if we keep sitting up here just massaging each other's egos, this is not going to be cool. So what are you not good at? I think that... Where do you struggle? Where are some places that you struggle? I think I struggle with understanding that it's not all about me.

1:43:46The ego is so scary. It is very scary. It's like a shadow that gets longer. You don't even notice it. It's like the more light that gets shine on you, this shadow kind of gets longer and you don't even really notice it. And you turn around and there's this... And people are like, you're an asshole. You're like, okay, well, let me figure it out. but no but no the ego is a scary thing because you don't really know how it grows or what causes it to grow sometimes you know and the i can try and convince myself that i'm doing a good job of maintaining it but that can also feed my ego right because of look i'm doing a good job of maintaining it yes who's doing that i am fuck i think that's what's kind of happen to me over like yeah dude it's like i don't know it's interesting but that's all the journey too it's like yeah i don't attach myself to a ton of experiences i kind of feel like it's just everything's just like an experiment sort of that i'm in yeah but like um acclaim is an interesting thing you know being acclaimed for something having a claim for something like being applauded or yes yeah okay yeah because it's scary yeah you know because your ego will sit there and just listen to that all day.

1:44:58Yeah. And it's hard to, like, even if you try, like, I can tell myself the applause don't matter, but it's almost like my ego or the DNA still picks it up, picks up that frequency. It's like, I don't care what you say. We're going to still try and build you up a little bit. Yeah. Like a little gremlin in the dark. It is dude. Yeah. Um, how much have, what's your relationship been like with your own, uh, ability to create discipline for yourself? I find myself struggling with that. So I, I struggle with the word discipline. So weird because I just see it as a discipline is doing the basic things consistently.

1:45:47And sometimes that's hard for me to do. So I try and implement strategies where I can outsource that discipline. So in order to be a good runner, I'm lifting weights. And I got my buddy, Austin Yoakam, who is a guy I played football with, and he's got his own gym in Minneapolis. And he's one of my great buddies. And he's the expert in the gym. If I tried to be the expert in the gym and go to like a planet fitness or someplace and try and do that on my own, I wouldn't have the discipline to do it because motivation isn't there. And motivation is, is like a feeling where you, you can't rely on that.

1:46:28So for me, so motivation is not something you can rely on. You don't at all. I don't rely on motivation at all because it's, it's how often are you motivated? Like you never, I don't know. Like the more you do something, the less motivation plays a factor. Um, and dude, sometimes I get motivated. I'll be like, oh dude, I'm motivated. I'm fine. Yeah. You're like, I'm good today. I'm feeling, dude. Bro, I'm motivated. I don't even need to go do anything. I'm already doing good. And then I don't do anything. I love that. I love that you said that. That's crazy. I never thought about that shit, bro.

1:47:06So I, I show up in the morning to Yoakam's to lift. And all I have to do is show up. And what's his gym called? Yoakum Strength. Yoakum Strength. Yoakum sounds like he's... That's his last name, too. He's this huge dude with long hair. Oh, yeah. Land of 10 ,000 necks. Yeah. Land of 10 ,000 traps. Yeah, bro. Dude. Bro, a mouse won't go near his back. Bro. Yoakum, that's him. Oh, dang, bro. You could probably sell his semen on the market. And that's illegal, too, people. but um anyway so i go to him so you outsource so you trust him i trust him i don't have to think about my weight lifting all i have to do is show up and then when i'm there i know that i'm in a space where if i give my best effort i'm gonna get the results because i trust him to do that got it for running i don't have a coach and i am really bad at saying all right i'm gonna set this schedule for this week and I'm going to do 70 miles and I'm going to do 10 this day and seven this day.

1:48:15Yeah, that's Austin right there. Oh, what's up, Austin? And so what I do is I outsource that. There's this challenge called the calendar club challenge. And it's where you run the number of miles equal to the day of the month. So on the first, you run one mile, then two miles, then three, all the way up to 30 or 31 miles at the end of the month. And you have to run every day. You have to run every day. And for me, it's great because I know every mile I'm running for the entire month. I don't have to think about it. And it's a good challenge because toward the end of the month, you're starting to run a lot of miles that then help prepare me for hour 60 of a backyard ultra when my legs are tired, my brain's tired, I'm missing sleep a little bit more, I'm fatigued, I'm under fueled because I'm burning so many calories and trying to maintain all of that.

1:49:03And so Calendar Club is like, now that's my discipline because I don't have to think about it. I've outsourced the thought process or, you know, if I don't feel like running today, well, I got 20 miles to run a day. I got to go do that. I don't have a choice in this. Got it. So you just made the commitment and you're in, and then you don't worry about all the extracurriculars of it. No. That's a lot. Yeah. Cause that's too much. Sometimes I don't want to think. Yeah. I do enough of that. Thinking does not help us. No, it doesn't. I started to notice this a little bit. Sometimes I'm just like my brain's running, but I'm not thinking.

1:49:42And when I start to notice that, I'm like, that's not good. That's not the best thing because that's just my brain. It's like, it's just bullshit or whatever. It's just like smoking or whatever. I don't know what my brain is doing right now, but it's just like, it's like throwing old thoughts at me. Don't you feel bad about this? Remember this dude? Or whatever. But it's not like usually fun stuff. So it's usually just kind of like, it's like your junk folder of an email account. Yeah. It's like the guy with the wiener and he's got the controller in his hand, dude. It's like, dude, give me back that controller.

1:50:12Bro, this is all just park wiener. Yeah. Yeah. Get this guy out of here. Yeah. Dude, this guy. Get him out of my head. Yeah, dude. What's he doing? And he had a crazy, the wiener seemed crazy. I only looked at it once, but it's. You didn't get a second look? I don't remember. I would have given a second. I mean, I could draw it for you on a napkin if I had to. But what I'm saying is I only looked at it once, dude. And I was helping my girlfriend. Yeah. But anyway, yeah, dude, it was just a, I mean, it was just like broad daylight in a park. But anyway, what I'm trying to say here is, but yeah, that's not thinking.

1:50:46Yeah. Right. That's my brain just spinning around. so then I start to like if my brain starts to think a little bit like I'm actually thinking like oh what do I think about this or how can I solve this or what's going on I'll start I want to try and like I want to start like saying oh thank you brain because then it's like oh good I'm gonna start thinking more because I think just with like phone and just life you get so caught up like a lot of times I'm not even thinking I'm just like I don't know what I'm doing yeah like I like what my brain thinks because it's doing something cool it's like how can we do this or what's going on or here's somebody's birthday today or somebody just got you know three years of recovery or somebody's heading off to like a psilocybin journey just little things so i can call and congratulate just little things so my brain just not filled with my bullshit right yeah it's like dude if i get a thought in the morning of somebody else and it's not me dude it is like oh dude it's like my heart just got like a Christmas present.

1:51:45Like the other day I woke up and I was thinking of my sister and it was like the best. And I don't mean that in a weird way, but it was like the best thing ever. I was like, Oh, so nice to wake up thinking about somebody else. Have you found ways to cultivate that? Yes. For me recently, it's been having a gratitude list and people say gratitude lists all the time, but I don't think just writing things down, it doesn't help me. I have to write like, like I'll say like yesterday I was writing, I'm thankful for my friend Curtis. Right. So then I'll think, why am I thankful for my friend Curtis? Well, I'm thankful for when we go on walks together and we talk about stuff.

1:52:24We'll talk about faith. We'll talk about what's really going on in our lives. Um, and so then I'll think about that. I'll think about, all right, that's me and Curtis. We're walking. We're talking about this. We'll joke around, you know, like we'll laugh a little bit. We'll get serious. We'll share about things that have meant something to us. Um, we'll go see his son play football. I'll think about that. And I'll think, Oh, I get to sit in the stands. He's down there on the field. He's coaching his son, like how much pride he feels. Um, his wife's in the stands. She's cheering. They got some ridiculous lady that keeps blowing one of those horns or whatever, but I'll attach like a lot of thoughts to it.

1:53:02And those thoughts make me feel something. So now I'm have a gratitude list, but I'm feeling something about it. Like this morning I wrote also, Oh, I'm thankful for the doors in my house. And so I thought about, well, how do I feel when I open certain doors? How do I feel when I walk through them? Right. So just trying to attach like actual moments to just the writing. Uh, and that's just been helping me somehow. I think it's just, cultivating a little bit more of that. I'm not saying I'm perfect or anything about it or anything. Shit, I'm barely, you know what I'm saying? We out here. But that's a cool thing that I started to do.

1:53:42And then here's the crazy part. I start kind of liking it. Now I'm like, dude, I woke up and I was like, what is something I can be thankful for? And I didn't think that two months ago. So, you know, I've always had a decent practice of it, but this is something else. Yeah, here's, he just has the, thanks for pulling this up, Trevin. Ultimately, gratitude is more complex than merely expressing courtesy or focusing on positive thinking. When you regularly focus or meditate on what you are thankful for, it causes effects that promote well-being, including psychology and physical health. Gratitude affects the amygdala, which regulates the SNS.

1:54:21Not sure what that means. and our anxiety responses, regularly journeying about gratitude or discussing it as part of a group have long been parts of successful life coaching approaches. It reduces depression. That's something I do think maybe I'm getting out. I hate talking about stuff, bro, if I'm new to it because I'm afraid it's going to go away. Well, okay. What I witnessed in you when you were talking about it, it's like your eyes were closed and it was almost like you were back in that experience walking with your friend. Yeah. And you were back in that moment where you felt all that gratitude.

1:54:54So it was almost like, it was crazy watching this because it was like you were pulling out that experience and you were feeling it right now. Yeah. And it's like, oh, wait, the more we feel the things we're most grateful for, it's like, man, that's going to carry with us. Yeah, dude, that's the thing. Like, I don't know. I've just started the practice of it. I've probably been doing it about two months now, maybe six weeks, but it's just feeling good. And I have started to like it a little bit more. And the craziest thing is, I used to be able to only think of a few things I'm grateful for. And now it's like I'm be able to think of more.

1:55:27So I don't know. It's been interesting. I'm sure in two days I'll just be vaping and laying there touching myself for no reason. But for now, I feel like maybe something new could be going on. I heard you had a post this the other day that I thought was really cool. And you were talking. This is on Instagram, I think. and you were just talking about how things in your life wouldn't be possible without Jesus Christ, without your faith. How has faith played a role in, how did faith start in your life? Yeah. I mean, I grew up going to Catholic, I was Catholic grade school, altar boy, all that stuff, stoked about funerals.

1:56:09That's why you're fast if you're an altar boy. Sorry. Sorry, Pat. Hey, hey, it's okay. Sorry, Bishop. Yeah, you got a Bishop coming on next week. You're going to have to explain yourself. And he's from Minnesota. Oh, really? Yeah. Okay. He's from Minnesota, so I'm excited about it. You're going to have to explain yourself to him. That's true. So went through that, went through Jesuit high school, went through, you know, it was a Catholic university, but never felt like it was a choice that I was making. And in high school, I struggled for a number of different reasons, but I struggled making strong, deep-rooted connections with people.

1:56:45So I always felt like an outsider. And so I always felt like... In order for me to be a part of this group, I have to predict how I think they want me to live and be like. And the amount of, I don't know if I'd call it anxiety, but like, it was this scared mindset of like trying to predict how they wanted me to act and always getting it wrong. and then trying to figure out like I was always living up in my head thinking I knew what was going up on you in your mind and trying to live that way oh yeah bro you're like an EMT dude yeah when you're living like that you were literally like an EMT you're just like sitting there wait like you're like a response team yes it's like how do I respond right yeah that shit's hectic some of that could just be being young sure but I think also that it's uh that it's interesting that you were noticing that.

1:57:40Okay, go on. And so leaving high school, I had sort of made this quiet promise with myself that I didn't want to feel that way again. And so I chased acceptance. I was like, I'm going to do whatever I can to get people to like me and not live this way anymore. And a lot of the things were like, be successful in sports, drink and have a good time. And, you know, I would let my friend shoot me with a blow dart being drunk or shoot me with a BB gun because that was fun. I was the center of attention. Yeah, shoot me. You know, shoot me. Yeah, dude, hatch at me. Exactly. Cut off my leg. Who cares, bro?

1:58:20Let's go. And that worked for a while. You know, that works. And eventually that led me into a place where I was like, you know, getting in trouble with alcohol, having regrets, having shame, talking about the things that I talked about earlier of just like bottling up emotions and having that come out in negative ways. That shame's crazy, bro. Oh, it's wild. It'll do some dark things to you. It's crazy. I think most of our country, I don't know. I think a lot of us are living in shame, especially men because of probably pornography and stuff like that and how it's just been able to be so accessible, like how it was just like, I don't know.

1:59:01Imagine how much shame is rocking around out there. and how shame can be used to control you. Yeah. This is wild. In my spam, in my email, this is like a couple months ago, someone was trying to, what do you call it? Like hold me hostage for like Bitcoin. They're like, you got to pay us this amount because we saw you through your camera watching porn. No way. I gave up watching porn when I started following Christ a little over two and a half years ago. And I'm grateful for that. And I thank God for that because maybe in the darkness of me doing that consistently and feeling that shame, I would have allowed that shame to control me.

1:59:52And, but I'm set free from that now. And I know that's a lie because that's not something that I do anymore. And it's just like. Imagine how many people are falling to that. Yeah. And how you wouldn't. I hope I don't get it. But bring that up. If that's a scam right now, let's take a peek at it. I'm 29 days off of pornography right now. Good. Good. So I'm feeling it's the most I've done in a long time. I can't even believe it. It's freeing. But I'm going to keep believing it. Yeah. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Instead of just being like, I can't even, I'm just going to keep believing it. reports of scammers claiming they recorded people watching pornography via their webcam are widespread form of extortion known as sex sextortion the threat victims receive an email or letter claiming a hacker took over their computer activated their webcam and recorded a split screen video of them viewing explicit websites yep the scare tactics scammers often include an old password stolen from a past corporate or website data breach wow in the email subject line or body to trick the recipient into believing their device is fully compromised some advanced variants even include a google street view image of the victim's house to induce panic that's crazy the demand the sender threatens to send the fabricated video to the victim's family, friends, or coworkers unless a ransom, usually paid in Bitcoin or another cryptocurrency, is sent with a strict deadline.

2:01:23Oh my God. I didn't know this was happening, dude. It is a bluff. Cybersecurity experts and law enforcement agencies note that their claims are almost always entirely false. The scammers do not have a video of you, do not have access to your webcam, and generally do not possess your content list. data is bought and spoofed the password used as proof was bought cheaply off the dark web from old unrelated leaks and the email address is often spoofed to look like it came from your own account that's crazy i didn't know all that was going on did you i i did just from my experience right wow dude i'm glad we talked about that because i can't even imagine i mean every dude I know would send at least$30.

2:02:11Yeah. Or$60,$80 or something like that. Or yeah, at least$140 probably. I mean, every dude I know would continually, or not every, but a lot of dudes have fallen prey to it. And to think of your webcam, oh man. Well, it's, at least for me at that time it was it was aimed at fulfilling a need that I thought that I could fulfill with something worldly and and yes pleasure in that regard yes acceptance from people in high school and trying to change that in college and chasing achievement and getting to a point where none of these things fulfilled me and I think I I feel really encouraged and compelled to like man, there's a lot of things that we think that are going to give us what only God can give us.

2:03:10Yeah. And I think it's interesting that, you know, porn is something that is kind of commonplace, and yet it is being used against us. And I think that is something that is important because I did feel shame around it. And I think the answer wasn't to pretend to not feel shame around it. It was to reconcile why I feel shame around it and understand that there's a better way to honor life and honor my thoughts and bring them closer to what God would want them to be. Yeah. And you just have, we had my friend on here who's a poor, uh, he's a pornography recovery coach. Right. And, um, he's amazing, dude.

2:04:03He's the greatest dude. He's been through so much, but just all the things that hijacks that we don't even realize it's like the way then that you look at your spouse, the way that you communicate with women in general. Um, just the energy you bring into the world, even, you know, like even if I've been yurking off or whatever, if I'm going out in the world, my energy is just different. So it's like, I don't know, it's not a pressure to make anybody feel bad, but just like, yeah, it's, it is, it is like a, it is like, it's your own spirit and this like, and this greater energy of like, of a connection with God that you could just, that I believe you get disconnected from.

2:04:41I felt like I was a slave to it. Like in the, in the was habit forming. Yeah. And it's like, you close the door, you close the shades it's like everything about it made me feel like i needed to hide myself from the world yeah and then you i would take that with me and like you said like people that you would see women that you would see it would change how i viewed them and it would change how i viewed my spouse and that's that yeah yeah it's all damaging and i think the way we interact with like all that stuff just has an effect that's what i'm saying that's what i mean i just mean like if somebody's like realizing like man i'm having trouble in my way i'm trying to trouble even just like being around my kids or going to do something fun or having more time for all of that gets affected i think are the little side effects we don't notice um what about like sexual like activity before a race will you not engage like what is that like because for boxers they say that that's a thing you know what's it like for a marathon runners because if i'm gonna run 95 miles maybe it's better if my wife's waiting for me there at the end than if i just left out of a room you know yeah i i actually haven't thought about that too much really so it's not it's not on your radar?

2:05:47No. Huh. Yeah. Oh yeah. And I interrupted you about when you were talking about your relationship with God. Yeah. I wouldn't say interrupt, but we, yeah, I would say through chasing all of these different things that I thought would fulfill me, I would come up empty. And for me, it was, you know, I was running around thinking that running was going to be the thing that would give me fame and sponsorships and financial freedom and all of these things that I thought I wanted. And none of it was happening for me. And I felt empty. And you just weren't achieving those things. Yeah. Well, it wasn't, they weren't coming in the way that I wanted them to.

2:06:31And even in the ways that they were, it wasn't enough to keep me happy and joyful. It was almost like it was doing the opposite. it. And, um, wow. So did you almost like, did it get to a point where you're almost going to quit running at one point? Not necessarily quit, but have a, uh, try and figure out what the point of me running was. You know, I'd started doing the charity runs with my friend and have this beautiful relationship. And then somewhere along the way it became this avenue of like, well, I want to be a professional at this. And in order to be a professional, I need followers, money, and sponsors.

2:07:09And those, yes, are like tangible things that help you become a professional, but I was chasing them for their end, like for what they could do for me. And yeah, I was on a run and I was listening to a podcast with Cameron Haynes and Sally McRae. And they were talking about how in the deepest, darkest moments during the races that they are reminded that they are made by a strong creator and that they are that creator, that strength is in them because they're made in his image, image, in his likeness. And that thought, I was like, maybe this is, this is something that I need to think about. I didn't know how to do that, but it was a thought that was put on my heart.

2:07:56And not even five miles later, I come across a friend. His name's Vince. I hadn't seen him in a year and he's sitting by the lake reading a Bible. I'm like, what's up Vince? Like, how you doing? Uh, what are you doing out here? What brings you out here? He's like, I have fallen from my faith and something about today, the Holy spirit put on my heart that I need to come here and I need to read scripture. And the verse he was reading when I interrupted him was in the book of John and it's, it's, I'm paraphrasing, but it said, the reason you do not know God is because you are not of God. And to me, it hit me like a ton of bricks.

2:08:38Like I didn't know what was going to fulfill me. I was chasing all of these things and they weren't, they weren't doing it. And now I have this thought of like, well, what is, what is the relationship with God look like? And that scripture was like, well, if you want to find out, go find out, go do something about it. Go take action. Join a men's group. Go to church. Go to some place that you can learn more about understanding what the kingdom of God is all about. And from that point, I started actually taking steps forward. It's like if you want to build a relationship with a person or a spouse, you don't do so by staying distant from them.

2:09:20You get to know them. You talk to them. You learn about how they love and how they are calling you to live and how they're calling themselves to live. And that's what I started with was just like, hey, okay, let me open the Bible. I've never done that before. Yeah. Let me crack it open. What does that even mean? Yeah. And those Bibles up in Minnesota, they sound like a can of beer when you open them, some of them, you know, there's a lot of beer up there. Whoever belongs to God, here's what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God. Wow. And so I wanted to hear God, man.

2:09:56I, because I had tried everything. Oh, there you go. Dude, that's it. I tried everything. What else is there? You know, like, yeah. Like when do I admit that to myself? You know, like I'd tried everything. I tried everything. I tried to do it my way. I just tried everything. You know, it's crazy to think that God made us because he loved us, you know? That's one of the wildest things. It's not wild, but it's like, yeah, the other day we're at this, I go to a Bible study and they have, they were just talking about asking God what you could do for his kingdom, you know? And like, sometimes if you can really get in a good space and really ask that, I just, I'd never thought about it before, you know?

2:10:40Just like really asking God, what can I do for you? Yeah. You know? You know, like sometimes you can really get in a space where you really feel like a connection, you know, sometimes you're just, you know what I'm saying? You got to be, you know, there's 30 miles on the calendar. It's the 30th of the month and you got to hit the road, you know, and you're drive through praying. You were like in the, you know, you're just getting coffee at the window, but sometimes you go inside the McDonald's of the Lord and you really get in there on your knees and you, yeah, I don't know. but yeah it's like man god what can i do for you you know yeah it's kind of cool because then he you could you could get to do something and it's not for yourself yeah sometimes it's flipping burgers in the back yeah that's fine dude sometimes it's in the the place the play center yeah dude sometimes it's just being an adult that's sitting in the ball pit vaping dude that's if that's where god to ask you.

2:11:42But no, I don't know. I think there is like, I don't know. There can be like some excitement and like, yeah, there's excitement in that space. If you're, if you can, if you can get there with it, I think there's excitement in that space of like, yeah, what could God want me to do? You know, or who could he put in my life that there could be some new way to learn? Or I don't know it's just easier when it's like like maybe if something good happens it's not just with i'm just i'm not the only one to sit there and you can be like oh thanks god you know it's like god that's cool it's like i'm not the only one it's not just oh yeah otherwise i'm just sitting there by myself oh that was cool that was neat yeah you know but it's like to have somebody to share something with when when you were thinking about that in that space were there clear answers that came up for you?

2:12:34No, not really. I think it was just like, I felt just grateful that I was thinking about it. You know? Yeah. I think it's just better than sitting there with my thoughts and my thoughts are just my own. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I think it just feels like some reprieve. Yeah. So I think that's kind of where I'm at with like some of the relationship with God or like kind of like what's going on with me with it, I guess. I don't know. It's always a little bit different. Um, but yeah, I don't know if I'd ever even thought I'd exactly have this conversation. Right. You know? So I think it's just like things, little things you start to notice, you know?

2:13:14And I'm in a Bible study, man. Uh, you know, this, this thing that was like kind of nice that happened, there's this, um, musician, his name is Zach John King. And I think he just had a new album that came out actually, but he had, uh, there's this new book. It's called Theo on golden. Okay. It's by Alan Levy or Alan Levi. Um, and it's about, uh, an old man who goes into this, uh, sort of who goes into this coffee shop in this town called golden. But anyway, my buddy, Zach, John, my, my, my buddy, Zach had given me this book and he'd, uh, and it was wrapped up in paper And he said, oh, my dad really loved this book, and he thought that you would like it.

2:13:58So he gave it to me as a gift. And I just put it in my truck. And like two weeks later, his father passed away. It was like a sudden heart attack. And then two weeks after that, I realized I still had this book in my truck. I'd never opened it up. And I opened it up, and his dad had written in it. He was just like, I'm so grateful you and my son are friends, and I'm so grateful that you guys are learning about God together. Wow. And it was just like this, like, I don't know. It was just like, it's just like little things, you know? But it was like a nice moment that he and I got to have that his father was like, you know, his father's still alive here through these words.

2:14:40And I don't know. I'm kind of not doing the story justice, but. No, you are. It was pretty special. And he's a special guy. And it kind of just gave us like this little connection, you know? So it's just interesting. I don't know. it's all kind of interesting i get scared to talk about some of that kind of stuff because sometimes christian people can be like you know they can nail you to the cross it's like bro he already did that for us you know what i'm saying bro put your toolbox down karen so that's sometimes it's like uh i don't know some of that stuff i i get nervous talking about in some ways.

2:15:19I know I shouldn't. I don't get nervous talking. I think maybe like in a public way. Yeah. Does that make sense to you? It does make sense to me. And it brings up what you said earlier is like, I have a fear of, I don't know enough. So I feel like the knowledge of it, like almost like I have to have a certain knowledge of it to be able to talk about it. And like, if that's what you said, like you get nailed to the cross, like this is where I'm at in my faith journey. Yeah. And this is what I know, which is not very much. Yeah. But I'm still curious about it. Yeah, and some of the stories, dude, are not even that good.

2:15:58I'm going to go ahead and say that straight up, bro. I'm no Dr. Seuss or whatever or like freaking Oprah or whatever. But some of the stories in there, it's like, bro, this is a B-side track, dude. Let's be realistic. so I think I'm focusing on like the hits right now okay you know yeah but um the hits are good dude but that's the hits are good yeah the hits hit bro uh but yeah not to be ashamed and also to be transparent I don't you know like there's been times where like like faith is kind of coming in my life in some ways and then it's gone away yeah you know and I don't know what that's like I don't know.

2:16:41But, yeah, like, I had this, like, I don't know. I had some, found some other numbers on sextortion. If you wanted to read these off, we can plug it in. Yeah, dude, I didn't even know. Let's get back. Okay, great. Thank you so much. Oh, these are key. Sextortion is one of the fastest growing online crimes in the world with law enforcement and safety organizations reporting an unprecedented surge in cases over recent years. While it's difficult to map the exact global numbers, estimated 98 % of cases go unreported due to their fear and shame. I could totally see that. The explosion in reports, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children in the United States received 26 ,718 sextortion reports via its cyber tip line in 2023, a massive jump from 10 ,700 reports in 2022 and just 139 in 2021.

2:17:29So it's growing.

2:17:34NCMEC now averages roughly 812 reports of sextortion per week. Teenage impact research from youth advocacy organization THORN indicates that one in five teenagers report experiencing some form of extortion online. Other youth studies place the rate at around 1 in 20. Dude, that's got to be horrible for kids. Teenage boys and young men are most at risk. Young men aged 14 to 24 have become the primary targets of financial sextortion. For example, reports from cyberclip.ca indicate that 83 % of victims are male when the gender is known. Dang. Bummer. And LGBTQ youth studies show that LGBTQ plus individuals plus Inez Cantor experience disproportionately higher rates of both victimization and subsequent mental health distress compared to their peers.

2:18:29Probably because they're saying not only were you looking at pornography, but you were looking at gay pornography. Yeah. God, dude. Oh. Dark. Dark. That's why we got to keep going. Yeah. One step. Forward. That's it. Forward. One step at a time. Let's look at some of this Mark Dowdle porn. Sorry. Sorry, I did not mean that. We'll take that out. Let's look at some of this Mark Daddle core. That's what I meant, dude. Some of the Mark Daddle core that's out there. Let's just add to the lore from what a menace this dude must be when you're out there running. It's the middle of the night. A lot of these men have not even seen their wives or children for three days.

2:19:12And this total menace comes up the course. Let me see some of it, bro. and this was at the most recent race this was this was at the ultra yeah yeah

2:19:26this message is for sam harvey back at base camp i didn't come for 158 souls i came for all 159 and you can count on that Oh my god I heard it I heard it My favorite part is listening to the commentators on that Oh bro that's crazy dude Yeah Do you have to keep your mentality that high out there? Like is it an active thing? No Are there active moments where you're like Okay what do I think of now to get me to that finish line? Like okay I'm gonna think of This loops for my family This loops for my mom This loops from my, you know, do you think like that? Are there little things you think of that get you to that next moment?

2:20:15Yes and no. I mean, there's one thing that kept me going out there, at least deeper into the race, is like part of what I get to do in running is that's how I provide for my family and through the different avenues of what that represents. some of the best things that I get to do is I get to come home the week after or the weeks after and it'll be a Wednesday and my wife and I will get to hang out and not worry about where we need to be and if I can step further into that darkness if I can take steps towards the discomfort and overcome the pain of that situation, the reward for that is a movie on a Wednesday with my wife.

2:21:04Brother, I will go through more pain to experience that type of freedom and peace. Yeah. And so that is a big thing that keeps me going out there is this pain is nothing compared to the light that is waiting for me. Wow. And I know that's coming for me. Right. And if I can stay here and sit in it. Let me pay the tab right now. Yeah, let's go. Let's go. Yeah, like make it harder actually. Like bring it on because light and love will always overcome the darkness. That's in running and that's in life and that's in our faith. That's in our family and our friends, our relationship, everything. Light and love will overcome the darkness.

2:21:46And these races provide me evidence for that. And I get to keep stepping into that. And yeah, my wife is a big, big light in my life Lucy's her name Yeah, which means light Does it really? Yeah, it does Nice, Lucy And you guys have a baby on the way We do have a baby Is that true? That is true, yeah Let's go So that was another, you know And do you know if it's going to be a boy or a girl yet? We don't know that yet Brother, we, I don't know why I keep saying brother like that It's okay, dude I'll put on a Hulk Hogan shirt if you want. Whatever you got to do to get through this. We had the first 10-week ultrasound, and we met with the midwife two days ago, and I heard the heartbeat for the first time.

2:22:33Wow. And you've never done a 10-week ultra? Uh-uh. Never, never. Never done a 10-week ultra. But the baby has already. But the baby has. Wow. So we know where this kid's headed. Mm-hmm. To the loop. It's another loop. Oh, congratulations, man. Was that pretty amazing? Yeah, it was. Wow, dude. It's hard to put into words because I heard the heartbeat and it was like, this is life. And I'm listening to it, but I can't see it. Yeah. But it's there. It was just a weird, I don't even know what to, yeah, it was beautiful. Yeah. Oh, yeah, dude. And you know what's so interesting about the heartbeat that I think about sometimes, Mark?

2:23:17It's like My heartbeat, it's my father and my mother's heartbeat It's together, right? So it's like this beat has been going Like the radio has been left on, bro This is like the timbre of like I mean, I don't even know how long my family's even been alive But it's like This beat is just I'm just a remix Of all the people that have been here And that created me, dude And that's it That's what you make You make the beat it's pretty crazy really when you think about it so sometimes if you miss your mother or you miss your father if there's somebody like you can like that's why that beat is just right there it's kind of wild sometimes sometimes I'll do that and just like kind of like think about a family member that's gone you know it's kind of cool that is really cool I never thought about that dude that's the thing bro that's the remix bro that's the Mark Dowd or Lucy remix bro that's the new track another loop man This is another loop.

2:24:18That's perfect. You do public speaking now. You go out and talk to people and share what your journey and your faith is at basically most. Or what is some of that when you go to different schools and events? Yeah. So the way I think about running is in these three buckets under this same mission of I'm trying to figure out what I'm truly capable of. And I want to help other people discover that, too. The first bucket is I demonstrate that. I do the Arrowhead 135s, I do the Backyard Ultras, and I put the words into action. The next step is share that. Share the tools and the lessons that I use in the toughest moments out on the race, on the course, to help me overcome those.

2:25:00And then whether that's through YouTube or Instagram or going out and publicly speaking that to young men and women who, you know, man, And I would have loved to hear these lessons as a high school and college kid where I was struggling to find my purpose and my identity and what was really important. And to corporations who are looking for ways to kind of rejuvenate their culture. So then there's that aspect. And the third is to create opportunities for that to happen. So like one thing we do in Minnesota with my buddy Kellen and his business, it's a sauna cold tub business and we'll run three miles in the middle of the winter when it's minus 10 degrees out and we'll run to a cold spot in the Mississippi River.

2:25:45We'll crack open the ice with sledgehammers. We'll take a two minute cold prunge and then we'll run two miles back to the saunas and embrace north. and what I get to experience in that moment is somebody who is afraid of what this experience could be and watch that fear build over three miles and then they get to a hole and they they jump in and it's like all that fear that they'd built up in their mind they realized the experience was not as scary as the reality of the situation. And that's what being in a backyard is for me. That's what being in a, you know, the arrowhead is for me. It is experience that and how can I bring that to people?

2:26:31And so the public speaking is a way for me to like share this lesson and then show people like you can do this too. You don't have to do, you know, 94 hours in a backyard to experience that. that guy got in the one with the two ladies that's what I'm talking about dude that guy picked me dude I've never seen two ladies in the Mississippi River either dude but this dude knows that's what happens upstream come upstream more often dude what happens upstream stays upstream bro Mark Dowdle thanks so much man is there anything else that you want to discuss before you go no I just want to thank you thank you for your time and uh like i said earlier thank you for the way that you think about things because i it's truly encouraging to hear you think and talk out loud and it encourages me to be able to do that more and more without fear of needing to be perfect oh thanks dude yeah i'm just trying my best you know i think most people are and i sometimes yeah and even then i wish i did better at it you know what that's a crazy statement i'm trying my best and then the next statement out of my mouth is, man, I wish I did better at it.

2:27:43That's just proof right there what I'm talking about. Like got to monitor these voices, man. But so grateful I got to hear yours today, dude. And that's one that's going to keep ringing in my ears. And yeah, just thanks so much for your journey. Tell Lucy, thank you for letting her husband leave while she's pregnant and letting you escape. And yeah, dude, we'll be keeping tabs and we want to donate to your friend's charity for his mother. It's called Lori? Love Like Lori Legacy. Love Like Lori Legacy. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, you bet. We'll keep in touch about it and we'll donate to it right here.

2:28:19That's what it is, lovelikelory.com. Living the Legacy Run. And when is the run? So this run, the website's a little bit outdated, but you can still donate to it. But this was the third charity one we did, which was a 500-mile run from Springfield, Illinois to St. Paul. Okay. I'll be in the van, but... This happened in 2022. Oh, it did? Yes. Okay. Yes, yes, yes. Excellent. Got it, got it, got it. Well, Lori, we miss you, and grateful to think about you today and say your name out loud. And, yep. Mark Dattle, thanks so much, brother. Thank you, Theo. Yeah, man. Now I'm just floating on the breeze And I feel I'm falling like these leaves I must be cornerstone Oh, but when I reach that ground, I'll share this peace of mind.

2:29:14I found I can feel it in my bones, but it's gonna take...

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