DoorDash Co-Founder Stanley Tang on founding story, lessons + First-time fund manager panel | E1759

34:58But you also might have the next Danny Meyer who wants to create the next Shake Shack, Emerge. And we won't tip our cards here, but we're going to be working on something kind of fun. That's true. We are, yeah. But yeah, it's all part of that. To maybe inspire some Mr. Beast. It's all part of that trend. And I think that to me is really, really exciting. And we want DoorDash to be, it's just going to be one of many companies that's going to help enable that transition. All right. Give it up for Stanley for being so honest and awesome. Thank you. Listen, we have been doubling and tripling down on Founder University here at launch.

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36:40We love you, Squarespace, our longest running partner here on This Week in Startups. Thank you so much for supporting our founders and for supporting This Week in Startups. Sophia Amorosa is a serial entrepreneur, event host, podcaster, author, and her fund is TrustFund. Full disclosure, I'm an LP, and her fund, Paige Doherty, is behind Genius Ventures. Did I help you hear from that? I didn't. Not yet. Not yet. Not yet. I do one new fund a year, just small checks to build relationships. So who knows, maybe 2024 we'll work together. And then Kelly Fontaine is with, how do you pronounce your firm?

37:19Sendana, which is a fund of funds. Maybe you could tell us a little bit about what Sendana does. I know Michael's here from Sendana, but maybe you could explain how a fund of fund works and how you pick managers to start. So Sandana Capital is a fund of funds founded by Michael Kim. He started in 2010 to solely focus on pre-seed and seed funds. Back then, it wasn't really a thing where there's like 20. So we raise our own capital from foundations, endowments, family offices, and then we choose to invest in pre-seed and seed funds. And as we heard in the earlier panel, it's hard for them to do these small checks.

37:59So I'm assuming people like Hewlett or USC or other folks who want to get access to this, they'll pay you a fee. Essentially, you get part of the carry, you get part of the management fees. How does it work in terms of the deal? We charge our own economics. So how does that work and then how does that affect decision making? So yes, we charge a management fee and carried interest on our performance. We think that's the best alignment of interest is the carried interest. so it works that you know essentially our our lps are getting the piece and uh carry from the underlying funds and then our economics applied on top but our first fund is 2x distributed net and over 4x net so the performance is there if you choose correctly and so we really focus on portfolio construction um and fund sizing for underlying managers and what a fund of funds typically charged because we know funds are typically two and 20 that's the standard what is there is there a standard for fund of funds it depends some don't charge carry um some just charge management fees on the underlying fund size um but i think again the best alignment of interest is carry and i would say 10 is pretty typical 10 so if a if a lp does choose to do this or an endowment let's say they are paying maybe 30 carry net net but they don't have to manage all of those smaller relationships and do that vetting.

39:27You abstract all of that for them. Correct. And again, our first fund is better than most venture funds on a look-through basis. Yeah. So that, and how do funds make that decision? How do endowments make that decision? Do they choose to go with a fund of funds only typically, or do your investors typically do fund of funds and do some directs? And then does that create any kind of tension in how you manage it? it's a combination. You have large foundations and endowments who need to write a$50 million check. So they're not going to write a$50 million check to a$50 million fund. Our median pre-seed fund is$50 million.

40:06So they won't do it, but they'll do the funds when they graduate from what we focus on. Then we have other foundations and endowments who are looking to build out a direct portfolio. So we work with them and introduce them and share all of our investment memos research network and they go directly into the funds as well so it depends on the foundation endowment um i'd say there's not as many foundation endowments who love to do first-time funds um and so yeah and i sort of speculated on that a little bit in the previous panel but why is it why do they not want to do that you know that that's hard because even David Swenson said, you know, it's intuition and going back to Mars.

40:50If you're looking for this track record, then you've missed the earliest funds. And there's venture, there's research that says funds one through three outperform. And we can debate on why that is. Is it the fund size? Is it you fish the low hanging fruit in your network? Is it the timing? Is it the conviction? We can debate on why first time funds outperform, but there's research to prove it. But, you know, What does your intuition tell you? Does it have something to prove? High energy, not rich yet? I mean, if a founder, hungry, yes. There's a lot of the hunger and drive. But I do think if you're a founder and you're leaving a company with a stable salary to start a job, it's the same thing as a GP starting the fund.

41:36They're taking the risk and the bet on themselves, and they have that whole heart that the timing is right, that they've built their career to this point that they can do it. And so it's this opportune time. And Samantha mentioned finding Australia. So they find niches where their experience and their networks is the right time. And again, it's Goldilocks. There's a self-selection process there. If they're deciding to take that path to do the incredibly hard thing of starting a fund, they're probably high performers or insane or have something to prove, chip on their shoulder, not yet rich, or not calling in rich.

42:10All of those things, yes. Calling in rich is the joke instead of calling in sick. Let's start, I guess, Paige with... I have a question. Okay. What do you look for in a fund manager? I feel like for everybody in the room who's maybe thinking about starting a fund at some point, that's something we would want to know. It's like, how do you evaluate a fund manager? Is that okay? Yeah. I mean, you're a great moderator too, so let's... I've already... There seems to be a theme today that I went from the world's great moderator to number three, so... It was a soft now, but I need to know exactly. I mean, so asking for a friend, asking for a friend.

42:45LPs look at, you know, if you fit their portfolio, you're not going to go and convince an LP that doesn't invest in emerging managers to invest in a first time fund. So if an LP does invest in first time funds, it's really is the thesis is the ecosystem, the broader picture of where your networks are, does that fit? And then you get to the discernible edges. And the discernible edges really focus on what do you do as a fund manager? You have to source, pick, win, and support, right? And so back to the Mars presentation of yesterday of the rational thinking versus intuition. The rational thinking can help you with the sourcing and figuring out somebody's networks and the support.

43:28You can diligence, you can talk to founders, talk to the ecosystem. But it really is the picking that you have to have an intuition on. I mean, you can have somewhat of a track record, but then is that repeatable? So I would say there's intuition and rational, but it's those four things that we spend a lot of time and a lot of time with founders and co-investors and the perceived reputation in the industry. So Paige, tell me about your fund, when you started it, and then your process for raising funds. And then Sophia, we'll go to you. You're doing a public raise like I am, and we'll talk about the public raising.

43:59Did you choose to do public raising as well? I actually didn't do a public raise. Didn't. So I'm 506B. And I can talk about, like, if you're thinking about starting a fund, there's a delineation between raising in public through a 506C fund, which Sophia and Jason have both done. And then a 506B fundraise, which I've done while building in public, which comes with certain regulatory lines that I've spent a lot of time with lawyers going through in specific. But, yeah. So I started my fund when I was 22. in 2021 uh i got into venture because i was binge watching silicon valley and i was like this is the best job ever how do i do this um and that's a fiction-based show just yeah it's a level set here it's not a documentary yeah despite it's yeah well yeah it was funny i thought it was like it was so like hilarious and outlandish and now i watch it and i'm like this is this kind of my day to day in like a weird way.

44:58But I just like I fell in love with venture and the opportunity to support and pick amazing founders building the future that I wanted to see for myself for like the next generation. And then as I was going along in my journey of learning about venture, I thought it was really opaque. So I started building all these resources on Twitter, helping other people break into venture. I was working in an early stage startup by day and And then by night, I worked on a children's book called Seed to Harvest that explains venture capital in 40 pages and a lot of colorful illustrations done by my brother.

45:33So my first fund was a$5 million fund invested in 27 pre-seed and seed stage companies. Twelve of those raised fall in financing. I'm pretty heavily involved in introducing founders to downstream capital. And our LP base is quite strategic in that sense, a lot of founding partners. And then my second fund, which I launched late last year, actually, Sendana Capital is our anchor. So I'm excited to be on stage with Kelly today. But yeah, that's kind of like how I got into venture and a bit about the firm. And I focus a lot on like what are the demographic shifts that are happening within my generation and what are the different like softwares or connected hardwares that enable that to be democratized to a broader group of people.

46:22Did it turn out making that piece of content, this children's book about venture capital, which is just such an amazing, clever idea. Thank you for doing that. That's when I discovered you on Twitter. Did that turn out to be like the wedge strategy that got you attention? And then social media then had people say, oh, well, if you're starting a fund, maybe I'll put 25 or 50K in? Yeah. I mean, I think like for any of you raising a fund, like our first fund was like 1 ,700 cold calls. And I was like DMing everyone who followed me on Twitter. like, Hey, you said 1700. Yeah. 1700. Yes. Yeah. We have 120 LPs in our first fund.

47:00So I think like if you're raising a fund, it, it will, it will be hard. It gets, uh, easier along the way and then it gets more challenging in some ways. But, um, yeah, the children's book actually led me, I set up this community number, uh, where I could like text out updates, uh, for the book. And that's how I met the first founder that I invested in. His name is Kai Han. He's the founder of a company called Palette, which is community job board infrastructure.

47:31I remember like being on the phone with him and just being like, holy shit, like this is the founder that I need my name on this cap table. And then after that, I asked him for allocation. and then I think I asked on Twitter what syndicate platforms I could use they ended up using Assure. I think you made a recommendation about Assure around that time. Sorry about that. Can't win them all. Yeah, and ended up investing in his company as my first investment. We ended up doubling down through the first fund and he's an LP in our second fund. So that's been a really cool full circle moment. But yeah, the book directly led me to meeting the first founder that I invested in.

48:14Sophia, tell us a little bit about the origin story of TrustFund. I know you had done some angel investing. Obviously, you're an entrepreneur and people love operators as investors. Why'd you decide to start a fund now? So I've started a company. I don't know. I won't do the introduction thing because we've talked enough about it on This Week in Startups. So I've been angel investing for mostly the last four years. I invested in first dibs in like 2012 or something like that. But yeah, over 20 companies at all stages, all sectors, not trying to do a fund zero, just really enjoy working with founders.

48:52And after I built my second, I guess, venture-backed company, realized I don't like building companies. I really like being in the weeds. I don't want to hire executives to do the stuff that I enjoy doing. And it feels much better to harvest what it is that I've learned building massive companies and flailing and you know messing up and falling on a public stage and all of the above um just to kind of i guess use the word harvest again everything that i've learned for them which is just like i would do it for free but you know i can hustle advisory shares and roll them into the fund so um so i went on a listening tour in 20 i guess last year um and just like talked to a bunch of early fund man like emerging fund managers and pretty much everyone gave me the caveat that's like you never stop fundraising you're not like spending time with founders it's like miserable you never even when you close your fund you're just you're always fundraising for fun too and I was like Jesus Christ but everything I've ever everything I've ever done like I've been thrown a bunch of I'm just like stubborn and so I'm like well maybe it won't maybe maybe I'm special yeah it'll be different no I don't know I mean maybe a little little bit.

50:02But I decided to do it anyway. You know, I decided to do a$5 million fund and raise in public. Last year, I just kind of went out and quietly emailed my network and you're one of those people and Mark Andreessen and Chris Dixon and all these awesome guys signed up Jeremy Lou to be LPs because I had met them in like 2012 when I was fundraising for Nasty Gal. So I've had you know relationships for like i don't know how i don't people are asking like how i met you do you know how i met you yeah like 10 years ago we've like played poker at cds and whatever um so that's like that's pretty awesome to have those guys show up because i've actually pitched andreason in the room for a company and been turned down which is still one of the proudest moments of my career um just getting in that room i guess um so decided to go out with a five million dollar fund and just like okay i'm gonna raise in public like i had raised a little bit at the end of last year heard about this 506c thing and I think Ryan Hoover at Weekend Fund and a few other folks had done this and done it really well and published a lot of content about how they did it and he's also an LP and a friend so I was able to ping him and ask a bunch of questions about how this worked and just like I don't know went to TechCrunch and was like hey I'm doing this fund I want to tell you about it and maybe I'll do something interesting and I'll let people who anyone who's an accredited investor apply to invest in the fund because you know typically you can only have 99 lps in a fund um i have a parallel fund where i can have like 2 000 qualified purchasers which are like super rich people and then accredited investors i can have like 249 yeah um up to 10 million dollars up to 10 million dollar yeah um and so i made this really does solve the cold start problem doesn't it yeah and it created so much groundswell so i announced that only TechCrunch picked it up and I talked about it on my socials or whatever and I got a thousand applications from people between two and 20k and over six and a half million dollars in people who were applying to be LPs in the fund and there was a big air table that was like how could you be helpful because it's an opportunity to you know for a broader set of LPs to evangelize the product, send deal flow, possibly help and have a variety of domain expertise that they can contribute to the portfolio companies.

52:25Even their teams can possibly beta test stuff that my founders are doing. And so that was really exciting. And I don't, I still don't have a hundred LPs. I'm still kind of, and I'm almost, I've like, I have like five committed, but I'm almost closed up, which is pretty cool. And I've written three checks. I don't know. I mean, I could keep going, but. No, it's absolutely fantastic. If you think about the previous way to do this you would have like a benchmark or a sequoia you know they they've had you know six or nine lps of you know 20k each 20 million each and that was their first funds and this was not democratized in any way and you just have to i guess build relationships now with all of these people to a certain extent i guess some of them just want to put the check in and i mean For a$2 ,000 check, I'm really clear that you're going to get information that everyone else gets.

53:19You don't get special information. You're going to get quarterly updates. You might get free stuff for early access to the companies we're working with. But here's what you don't get. I can't have coffee with everybody. My job is to invest your money. That's an email that goes out before they write a check. Right. Because I literally can't. I don't want to disappoint people. So I try to be really clear up front. Yeah. Yeah. So Kelly, let's talk a little bit about what you think of this. You're seeing a lot more startups, startup funds, let's call them. These$5,$10,$50 million funds. This didn't exist, I think, when Michael started his fund of funds, right?

53:58So now you have many more choices, is that correct, in terms of early stage funds? Yeah. So we did, to make our lives more difficult, or we started a nano fund so we started anchoring sub 20 million dollar funds we added it as a product we rolled it into our current fund but we think you know I know the LP said something different on stage but it really is fund size and venture returns is really about portfolio construction and appropriate fund size and so the small funds just have an outsized chance of returning multiples of capital and so we think it's a great opportunity for performance and so So we've always, 95 % of our capital has gone into fund one or two.

54:44Like we started all relationships at the beginning. So that isn't new. But we just saw, again, more were subsized. And so we put a direct focus there. How do you sort through so many of these new funds? And a lot of them seem like side hustles. So maybe it's become too easy to start a fund. Maybe people are doing it for fun or for status. and maybe they don't know what they're doing. Yeah, I think 2021 was tourist founders and tourist managers. And I think, you know, you get a good sense of why they're doing it. If you talk about, we really focus on a narrative when we talk to people. So what is your background?

55:26What have you accomplished in your career? And why are you doing this now? And you get a really good sense of what their drive is. Do they like the early stage, right? Or is this, you know, we focus only on pre-seed and seeds. We do it even with core bigger funds. Like, what is your focus? You want to be an AUM gatherer. You don't care about, you know, the early stage. We want somebody passionate about helping the companies. Because again, that goes back to the best referencing and sourcing you can get is from other founders. So we spend a lot of time, the GP market fit. Just as you would look at a founder, why are they starting this company?

56:01Is this truly a passion? Are they doing this because it's cool to be an entrepreneur? We do the same thing. Do they have to be full-time? It seems to me like the concept of having a part-time venture fund is kind of strange. So how do you think about the side hustle specifically and people doing it while they're running a company? This has become a point of contention for a lot of VCs. We're investing in your company, but now you're starting a side hustle fund to compete with us as investors. Does everybody have to have a podcast, a fund, and a startup? I mean, it's at a conference, asking for a friend, do they have to do all of these things or can they just shut the f*** up and do one really well?

56:42Jason, when are you starting a company? I have inside.com. You need it simultaneously. Yeah. But it's a serious question because it can become overwhelming. Yeah. I think a current operator, I think one of the knocks, we love operators, right? We love people who have been in the weeds and can be empathetic and know the journey. But I think one of the knocks is your products and tooling and understanding gets dated, right? Because with AI, like what tools are you using now? And so being current and in the market, you get different deal flow because you're one of them. You're a peer and your knowledge is current.

57:22But should you be leading deals? And probably not. Most founders that have had success are angel investing. So if it's a small fund and a step up and it's just writing a little bit larger checks, I think it works. But I think if you're trying to lead deals, that's a different beast. Is the thesis of a fund of funds that you'll keep going with the manager indefinitely or there is a graduation point? And do you hit that often? And then also, are you looking to maybe look deeper into what they're investing in and have the opportunity to direct invest into those? a lot of the sovereign wealth funds or endowments or family offices are like, hey, we want to be in an early stage fund like yours, Jake.

58:02But hey, what's the opportunity for us to meet the companies and then maybe we can invest in their Series B? How long do you keep investing, et cetera? So do you do the follow-on investing in portfolio companies of your fund-to-fund? Okay, so there's two questions there. The churn of the portfolio and then the direct investing. So portfolio churn, I think most fund-to-funds raise on the Sandhill names and they keep the roster. That's never been the way we invest. We want a fresh roster. We want to know what's going on in the early stages, capture the alpha. So we do have churn. I would say that we view ourselves as a lead investor, like a VC views themselves.

58:43And so we do monthly calls with our managers. We have a Slack channel. We bring in a monthly expert and the monthly calls are one-on-one. And so it's for them to come to us if they're thinking about hiring a partner, or if they're thinking about parada decisions, reserves, anything about fund management, we want to be a resource to them. But through those calls, we hear about companies that are tracking really well that they want to boast about, companies that are having a hard time they need help with, and we capture all of that in our database. So we do have a very small direct fund, but we don't want the tail to wag the dog, meaning we don't want to choose a manager because we're going to get direct deal flow.

59:21So we also have strategic LPs that want the follow-on or to lead the next round. And so that is General Atlantic, Tiger, and Sequoia Capital are actually invested in our fund. And so we will highlight companies to them for follow-on. So you become an early warning system for, you know, hey, here's some stuff that could be interesting to take a look at. Correct. Yeah. What's your best advice to fund managers on the table in terms of what's important to do every day and to just do really well? Because you must see some patterns emerge of where new fund managers kind of drift and get distracted and don't succeed.

1:00:01And then you must see, you know, some patterns of what results in outsized, you know, long-term growth of funds and multiple funds and outlier returns. So things to avoid, things to focus on. I think discipline. I mean, knowing your lane. I think kind of 2021, nobody had a lane. But I do think the people that stayed in the lane, that's going to stand out. And I think, you know, understanding your lane and your strengths, right? If you're good at early stage, that's where you should be focused, not leading a series B or worrying about parada even in a B. I do think the thoughtfulness, I mean, that's a personal bias.

1:00:38I think that you can really see it with people when they're thoughtful and authentic, when they're so self-aware that they know their strengths, they know their weaknesses, and they're building to a north star. So, you know, I think Michael was an early investor and forerunner. She has been so thoughtful and methodical about how she's built that firm. We have Ali Partovi in our portfolio, Neo. He has been so thoughtful. He founded Code.org with his brother. Then he founded Neo Scholars. Then he launched a fund on top of it. Everything has been patient, methodical, and slow to build to the North Star.

1:01:11And so I think it's just the discipline, patience, and thoughtfulness. Sophia, how are you dealing with, you've got a bit of celebrity, obviously, and you get a lot of inbound. But you have to say no now. and you have to say no to 99 out of 100 deals if you're going to be good at this. How are you dealing with, as an entrepreneur, a founder, somebody who is very optimistic, a just constant barrage of having to say no to everybody? I've gotten really good at saying no, I think. You know, it's like if there isn't, and I've never really been a follower in my career, but as someone who's new at this job, I'm going to invest in people who are at least one degree away from somebody that I know.

1:01:56Ideally, somebody that I know is also investing or if they can't or aren't, it's because they write too big of checks or it's outside of their thesis. I'm not really looking for diamonds in the rough. I'm not looking for people with my story, the community college dropout who like didn't know shit and like raised money and bootstrapped and like whatever. Maybe if there's some wild advantage and they had some, you know, but it's like I'm really looking for for founders who you know ideally like I love second time founders so I can just look at like a team slide and a deck and be like meh you know no like I don't I don't need to take a flyer on someone with someone else's money and I've got like a little you know it's like I now have a much narrow narrow thesis it's not a narrow thesis but I'm not investing in consumer products so it's so easy to be like sorry no cpg non-alcoholic wine company i mean i did well with liquid death but the other two cpg brands i did have like gone to they're not zero but and they were small checks um but and i've marked them down but um yeah i don't know i'm i it's like a nice little script that's like hi i don't invest in this or it's outside of my thesis or you know i'm busy fundraising or i'm focused on this other thing there's always some really polite way to say no and often i mean you hope that someone is asking if you're if someone's sending you a deal they're asking for you to opt into the introduction so it's much easier to just write that person and say like thank you so much please keep sending me deals i don't think this one's right for me and some people will just send you shit to be to like prove that they're helpful and that's just such a like then you're just then it's just like some weird it's not a it's like a weird expectation of a quid pro quo that I don't like.

1:03:46This is the worst advice ever given. I don't do. I don't do. Yeah. No, the worst advice ever given to founders was when you get a no, ask that person to introduce you to three more people. Because now you've literally got a person who did not see an opportunity sending you to three more people saying, there's no way I'm putting my money in this, but here's the deck. Good luck. You have to decode that. Yeah. Because they want to seem helpful to the founder and they want to yeah that's not helpful to founders i think it's different on the lp side though because i do think that there's certain things that won't fit us like if you're series a fun if you do biotech you know it might not fit our thesis or maybe we already have two fintech funds and we aren't doing another right but we can still introduce you to other lps so i do think even the nose from lps it's different than founders Totally agree with that.

1:04:33Thank you very much for doing that. I mean, Paige, tell us about how many people contact you a week for funding. And then, you know, with these small fund sizes, you don't have huge management fees, which means you don't have a huge staff in all likelihood. I was able to build a large staff off of the profits of this week in startups. Basically I was like, well, I'll just take the profits and hire people to sort through all this deal flow. So like literally I was the management fees. And then in the first fund we had no management fees. Yeah. And on a$10 million fund, it's 200k a year so it's not even enough to sustain the partner yeah so talk a little bit about how you manage how many people contact you and then how you manage that yeah sure i'll take the i'll take the second part of the question first so the the question was like how how do you think about running a small fund in a way that's sustainable so i think there's been like a lot of there's been a lot more public writing on this um but front loading your management fees while keeping them still blended, like 2 % over the 10 years is a really smart way to think about building a firm versus a fund.

1:05:35And so for us, like I front load, like the first three years are 5 % and then it steps down after that over the period of 10 years. And the way that I think about that is I want to build the firm like through these different funds and that enables me to hire a part-time like podcast editor since I run a weekly podcast called Seed to Harvest. I also have a part-time investment analyst who works at a family office as his day job. And I think one of the reasons why I hired him was, as you were saying, I get like an increasing amount of inbound through, you know, being like a semi-public figure on Twitter, which is, and I think, as Sophia was alluding to, I think like the longer that you invest, the more familiar you get with your own set of no's.

1:06:22So now it's like, okay, I look at a company, if it's not in the U.S. or Canada, if it's not domiciled there, it's a no. If they're raising at a ridiculous valuation, it's not going to be a fit for us. I would say I'm very disciplined around ownership, which is something that Kelly and I have talked about a lot. But I want to get between 1 % to 3 % ownership in the companies I'm investing in, which is not tenable with a company that's going to be, you know, over 30 million posts. And then beyond that, I look through, as our portfolio has grown, are there any conflicts within our portfolio? So now I have 36 companies, and I invest pretty heavily, especially in the creator tool space.

1:07:01There's usually some level of overlap, so it has to be a really unique value proposition. It doesn't conflict with existing portfolio companies, and hopefully complements them in some way. And then I think, like beyond that, I think about investing from a very first principles approach. So after someone's passed those steps, I'll usually take a call with them. And as I'm on the call, I'm thinking through like the three different axes that I think about as a fund manager. So very founder focused. So the first is, are they a compelling storyteller from a quantitative and qualitative perspective?

1:07:40because this is important whether you're selling to customers, whether you're raising capital, whether you're retaining employees based on an incredible shared fiction that building a company is. The second is do they have a strong mission? I think what I've seen from people of my generation is they want to work for a mission-driven company that's really important and drives shared action. And the third, and I would argue one of the most important components of my investing work that I look at, is execution velocity. So I'm an engineer by training, and I think about velocity as a vector being speed and direction.

1:08:18And I think this goes to if you think about fund managers or founders not having a track record before. I've got a lot of first-time founders. And I look at in their past, how have they been able to decide a direction? And then how quickly have they been able to iterate and move in that direction with what speed? and I think those three components are things that I've identified in myself that have helped me become like relatively, I don't want to say successful because everything's still on paper but have been able to grow like quickly in this field. So I feel like I'm uniquely equipped to understand those characteristics.

1:08:57Amazing. Let's give it up for Sophia, Paige, and Kelly. Well done. Thank you so much.

1:09:08Thank you.