Grammarly’s $1B Round, Brain Computers, and NYT Licenses To Amazon | E2133

0:00They did their first insertion of their brain computer implant and then took it out again with the patient that was undergoing brain surgery surgery already to prove it out. But this means that there's now four companies that have done this Neuralink, Precision Neuroscience, Synchron, and Paradomics that are all working on brain-computer interfaces. Is this the next self-driving project? The thing that's currently in a lab, but in five to ten years we're actually going to get to use? Because I want one of these. This sounds awesome. I don't know when this comes to civilians or soldiers or body hackers, but if there's four people working on it and, you know, it can make a person who's paralyzed eventually walk or, you know, a blind person see or, you know, any kind of these neurological diseases.

0:48I mean, it's incredible. This Week in Startups is brought to you by Oracle. Oracle Cloud Infrastructure, or OCI, is a single platform for your infrastructure, database, application development, and AI needs. Save up to 50 % on your cloud bill at oracle.com slash twist. Squarespace. Turn your idea into a new website. Go to squarespace.com slash twist for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code twist to save 10 % off your first purchase of a website or domain. and notion notion combines your notes docs and projects into one beautifully designed space with ai built right in try it for free today at notion.com twist hey everybody welcome back to this week in startups alex jason we're here i'm in singapore he's uh in providence rhode island crazy trip i came out here for a speaking gig and to do some meetings meetings going very well Word got out that I was here because I made it public.

1:44I spoke at a university this morning. I spoke for the Singaporean government's economic development council tonight. What's going on here? Oh, we did a meetup. This was a This Week in Startups and All-In meetup. There is a concept of a hawker booths of food. Okay. It's very hot here and humid. like 95 degrees hot and 100 humidity i mean like dripping and sweat hot uh and so um on saturday night we just for an hour and a half two hours a bunch of fans showing up like literally 100 people showed up nice we i emailed our mailing list i tweeted we're gonna have a public meetup uh the folks at river ray set it up uh-huh and a bunch of fans came and i bought from booth number eight tons of saute including mutton which is really good interesting you know they're just like those little sticks the skewers and uh people went crazy for it and uh yeah i took a hundred selfies apparently and i bought a bunch of coconuts for folks and so it's been that kind of an event but it's a really interesting place it's like hong kong if you've i don't know if you've ever been to hong kong i've not london or new york okay yeah yeah so in the same way like hong kong and New York and London became centers of the world.

3:08Singapore is like the center of Southeast Asia. And you have people from India, Australia, New Zealand, Hong Kong, China, America, everywhere here. And doing commerce, there's 6 million people here. I got to see Balaji and he's doing his network state thing here. That's right. Which is in Indonesia, just like over the border. So I went to see him. He's got like 200 of his like tech bro type, you know, crypto people hanging out, building stuff. It's, yeah, there's a lot going on over here. It's pretty exciting. I do want to start though with something that's a little interesting. So we've talked a lot about AI and IP and all this, and Google had their big IO event, dropped some new models, including Veo3, which is blowing up.

3:52And a company apparently put together a video, and I want everyone just to listen to this to see if you can catch something that may be a wee bit familiar to fans of the show. So here we go. Listen to this. Okay, we're listening. Yep. I'm the CIM. And my budget is bloated by a few million. I have no idea. And that, my dear friends, is not actually Jason Calacanis. That is some random AI avatar who sounds, I thought you were exaggerating i thought the tweet was fun but i thought you were exaggerating you're not that's actually you it is literally me so somebody from google was like is this has jason done so many ad reads on his podcasts that when you ask ai to make uh you know like an enterprise software ad it just uses jcal maybe or the person who uh posted this i think they were just doing like a test video i don't think it's for an actual product i think this is like a fake thing so i I have a feeling I could be being trolled and baited into talking about this, but there is engagement bait.

5:02Yeah, it might be engagement bait, but who knows, whatever. But there is a right to like privacy or celebrity voices and stuff like that that you do have. And this celebrity privacy kind of concept is very clear. If the public is confused, you're in trouble. and the so if this was a real thing which i don't think it is um yeah yeah yeah and if it was and somebody actually used this in an ad like it would be quite actionable and actually people have taken clips of me and put me into an advertisement talking about something you probably see that with joe rogan sometimes he'll talk about like a supplement and a supplement company will then take him and put him into something uh elon and shamath have had it happen with crypto currency scams where they're like, hey, I'm offering my latest crypto, go here.

5:53And this is one of these issues that's going to happen over and over again, as will it will happen to you, Alex, and it will happen to everybody where they'll take your voice, call your spouse and say, or mom or dad, and hey, I'm in Spain and I got arrested and I need to send money to this big and drive working wire money to this place. Those scams have been going on for a while. now they're going to be powered by AI. These tools are pretty close to indistinguishable. That sounded machiney, but if you weren't paying attention, you probably wouldn't have caught it, I don't think, right? No, no, I don't think so.

6:28But also, here's an interesting question. So this is a video. If you're listening to the audio version of this, there's a video that goes along with the audio you heard. And it shows a clearly non-JSON man using the JSON voice, which to me would make it easier to say that there's no confusion because clearly it's not you so i wonder if there's an audio versus video component it was a white guy like sort of but if you weren't paying attention you would think it was me but in all these cases it generally gets settled and the um thing you've probably seen is the following ad has celebrity voices and then they go into a celebrity voice so i think you can make a parody if you're not confusing the public but it's uh image rights is the concept where celebrities have the right to monetize their images yeah image and personality rights uh the right of publicity is a state level legal right that allows individuals to control commercial use of their likeness name and other identifying characteristics yeah i mean and there's been a ton of these lawsuits recently this is the backbone of name image and likeness deals with sports sports athletes because otherwise you could just take them and then clone them i am less worried about being cloned myself jason but i do think that everyone who is uh is very prominent is gonna have a problem with this though this is a great segue because uh a big news item for a couple of twist 500 companies is that udio udio maybe and suno the two ai music generating companies give them a prompt you know give me, I don't know, Benson Boone in the style of Dire Straits or whatever, and they'll kick out a song for you.

8:05They are actually working with the labels right now, Jason, to come to some sort of agreement about royalties. This would go in kind of exchange of lawsuits we talked about on the show before. I'm not surprised to see that they're coming to the discussion table here. My question is just, will the UDO and Suno business models work when their central cost of revenue goes up quite a lot. What happens in this industry is the music industry is extremely coordinated. There are a couple of different groups. There's like the people who own the mechanical rights, the lyrics, the songwriters, the performance, and there's different studios, Warner Brothers, Sony, which owns Columbia Records, and they all basically hit you from all different sides, multiple lawsuits, and then you're put into the position to having to settle.

8:54and the settlement is typically like how much money have you raised we'll take that plus 50 it gets really gnarly because once they have you having infringed you will never be able to recover peloton got themselves in trouble because the teachers were teaching and the music was in the background if you remember that one and man it was a very painful settlement i have been involved with startups who've had to go through this the music industry does not play around I think they will demand 80 % or 90 % of the revenue generated from these startups and millions of dollars in settlements for back infringements.

9:32And it is absolutely brutal. The thing I'm seeing in the marketplace is people are actually having musicians record chords and different types of music. And there are royalty-free licenses to music. So you will not allow people to make prompts like dire straits, but you could say, give me, you know, blues or guitars or finger picking guitars, you know, in a raspy voice. You'll be able to describe it otherwise. Hey everybody, it's 2025 and AI is officially everywhere from medicine to self-driving cars. If AI hasn't hit your industry yet, well, you know, it's coming fast, but AI needs serious computing power.

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11:02So here's your call to action. Oracle is offering to cut your current cloud bill in half if you move to OCI for new US customers with a minimum financial commitment. But act fast. This offer ends march 31st so see if your company qualifies at oracle.com slash twist that's oracle.com slash twist yeah and i think that'll be one of the settlements but uh that will happen or or one of the workarounds there is stock music that people will use for exercise videos now as but one example so you can buy royalty-free stock music for your podcast for your movie etc and And yeah, so that's the workaround here, but this is going to be absolutely insane.

11:46And they'll take equity as well in the companies. And I think that happened with Spotify, right? Yeah, exactly what I was going to get to, Jason. So I think they might be able to get away with paying a little bit less because they're essentially going to give up a chunk of their flesh to the labels in these discussions. So if you go back in time to 2008, as you just said, Spotify got its deals in part because it gave up single digit amounts of equity to a number of labels. And according to Music Business Worldwide, who had kind of some old accounting documents, Sony got 6 % of the company at the time.

12:16Now that got diluted, but Universal got five, Warner got four, and a group called Merlin that does indie rights distribution, as far as I can tell, got a point as well. So these equity packages, if you will, could be quite large. So we're talking maybe 10, 15 % of these companies, but if that lets them keep operating, okay, I can see that. but I mean if I'm an investor like you know Andreessen led the last UDO round and Lightspeed led the Suno Series B I mean you had to see this coming so I presume that I mean we predicted it, it would absolutely happen yeah you know sometimes people go for this like beg forgiveness, you know don't ask for permission I would say that's a very bad strategy when it comes to IP law for founders listening this is an area where you don't want to F around and find out because what you will find out is that The music industry has incredible lawyers and they will make an example of you and they will just grind you down forever.

13:16And basically you will have to shut your company down in all likelihood. I wouldn't be surprised if these companies get shut down based on this. It's interesting to see how consumers are reacting. I have a chart pulled up here of Google trends, interest data over time. And if you're watching the video, red is UDO, blue is Suno. and these are relatively stable so there was a spike uh towards the beginning or sorry early prior 2024 jason and since then interest has been flat but sustained so to me this shows that they definitely are on to something but i could not find any recent data points about oh we've added x number of users or x million songs or whatever so i wonder if they're at a bit of a plateau as they sort out the licensing side of things and then if it works out and they don't die as you said they can hit the gas pedal and uh and really make some progress but you know we've we've talked about these because they're fun and cool but i do get sent fewer tracks in my group chats than i used to when these were new i do i will say yeah i i think they these tools will be used by professional musicians and that's where it gets actually really interesting is does this money flow like sampling down to the people who inspired it and do they have like essentially citations so that is unclear from all of this and that will be the sort of next shoe to drop and then will these artists you know if you do something in the nature of taylor swift does any of that money actually make it to taylor swift does it go to the music label there's a lot of questions here and do they have to approve it so depending on how they do their contracts these contracts used to be when you when they buy the music they own it in perpetuity in any medium or or a format now or in the future but this isn't a format this is a transition thing so you know there i don't know if the music industry is going to be able to exploit this without getting permission from the artists that's going to be the really interesting issue and i wonder if you could going back to my favorite band and artists you know dire straits and mark knoffler i wonder if you created a couple of new tracks that were as good as sultans of swing or better than brothers in arms or whatever it is would mark knoffler and dire straits have to approve that because it is their body of work i guess and um yeah super interesting well it comes down to who owns the masters versus who owns the songs and then who owes the recording i mean there's a lot of the music industry is very difficult financially if you haven't looked into it just just poke around a bit and you'll see why we're talking about this on this front though jason last week um just as a update for everybody the new york times secured an ai deal with amazon and this surprised me because as we know uh oh new york times has sued open ai and microsoft over copyright infringement and so to see them go land a deal with amazon's ai arm alexa a couple things so the deal is going to provide summaries of times content inside of amazon products like alexa and then also provide information to quote, train Amazon's proprietary foundation models.

16:18Wow. Yeah. That's incredible. Yeah. Now what, what Amazon foundation models I hear you asking? Well, what a great question. It turns out they have a bunch. So here is a screenshot from their late 2024 dump of the latest Nova models, including Jason, Nova Micro, Nova Light, Nova Pro, Nova Premier, Nova Canvas, and Nova Real. I had never heard of any of these. this is the first i'm hearing of i've never heard the nova name and these are in-house models that they're making with their own team uh and i guess they're offering them through aws i'm gonna guess um absolutely so we knew this was coming and i they've also invested in a bunch of companies i don't know if they were in anthropic or um but they've invested in yeah yeah they're one of anthropic's biggest backers if i recall correctly i think they put in several billion more uh yeah it was 4 billion more this March.

17:13So they have a lot of money in that company, but also I think much like Microsoft has money in open AI, they also have their own models as well. And then also Google has the Gemma open source group. So there's quite a lot going on here, but I'm just, I'm curious why the times did this. It does feel to me like they were leading the charge and now they're almost hedging their bets in a way. No, no. I think they want to do licensing deals for their content. They just want to get paid for it and have controls. So I think this is a way for them to say to open up AI, look, this is the value that you stole from us.

17:49Amazon is willing to give us this level of deal and you just took it. So now they're proving in the market the value of their content to a language model. So I'm assuming this is a nine figure deal and I'm assuming it's a five to 10-year deal. And if that's the case, I wonder what this would be in terms of the overall mix of the Times' revenue eventually, because we had talked previously about, gosh, the New York Times has got, are they past 10 million subscribers or something like that? Some extraordinary number. I wonder if this could eventually be some significant double-digit percentage of their revenue, which would give them the ability, let's say this became eventually licensing deals like this, 20 % of their revenue, 30 % of their revenue.

18:36That means they could theoretically hire, if they put it all into journalists, maybe they can hire twice as many journalists. Yeah. So your numbers are incredibly close. So the Times closed Q1 of this year with 11.66 million subscribers total across all of its platforms. And what I found was interesting is that they actually have a line item in their earnings called affiliate licensing and other. So I presume we're going to see all of this Amazon money flow directly into that, which means that we'll be able to track pretty closely how much money actually comes in from this partnership, because that was only 63 million in the last quarter, 64 million, which is about 10 % of its total revenue.

19:13So if this does double in size, I mean, that solves the times growth problem because they only grew 7 % in Q1. Now they do pay a dividend, they're healthy, but 7 % growth is never where any company wants to be. So this buys them four to eight quarters of growth, which is awesome. Yeah, I mean, their expenses are probably growing at 7 % year over year. People are expecting 2 % or 3 % cost of living, raises, their real estate might go up, whatever costs go up. So yeah, this is a slow growth company, and they probably do need these opportunities. And I'll tell you, the truth is, these language models should be excited to pay a license to a content company.

19:53OpenAI, if they're willing to give Johnny Ives$6 billion for God knows what, and they're willing to buy the cursor competitor Winsurf. Winsurf. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It just shows. They're willing to pay 20 people at Johnny Ives' company, whatever it is,$6 billion. $300 million apiece. But they need to steal. Yeah, they need to steal the New York Times' content. No, of course not. All right, founders, let's talk about your website, huh? It might be a little bit of a sensitive subject. You might be a little embarrassed about it. Let's fix that right now. If you're launching something new, give your brand the refresh it deserves.

20:30You're working so hard on your company and your website looks terrible. Do what I do, use Squarespace. It's the all-in-one platform to make a stunning professional website. and it's ridiculously easy to use. It's going to work for everything. If you're selling products, it's got all that e-commerce built in. If you're selling services, it works perfectly. And they have a new AI product called Blueprint. Want more control? Well, of course, you can choose one of the award-winning templates and use the intuitive drag and drop tools to make it your own. Easy peasy. Squarespace equals the most functional and beautiful website on planet Earth.

21:06Go ahead. Squarespace.com slash twist to get a free trial And when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com slash twist to get 10 % off your first website or domain purchase. That's squarespace.com slash twist. Pay people what their content's worth and then build a trusted relationship with them. And you can even ask them, hey, we're seeing a lot of queries around cooking. Can you make more cooking content? Right. That would be a very world positive way to look at this. I know, you know, things we say on the show make it back to Sam Altman. And so somebody sent him this, like, Sam, just, you've got a$350 billion company.

21:46Carve out 10 % of your revenue every year, which would be a billion, right? They're going to break$10 billion. Just carve out 10 % of your revenue to build the content base. And, you know, if a billion dollars, you could give 10 million to the New York Times, 10 million to the Washington Post, 25 million, whatever it is. They'll put it to good use. They will. And then you could even extract exclusives from you. You could say, hey, I want you to do more science and technology reporting. I'll give you another 10 million to hire, you know, 50 journalists for 100K each and some managers. We'll give you an extra 10 million if you give us an exclusive on just 50 great journalists, 100 great journalists doing science, technology, whatever.

22:26This could totally solve the problem we have in, you know, journalism to increase the investment and say, hey, as part of that, we want fact checkers. And we want all the stuff put in the semantic format. When you're a customer, then you could make demands. And you could say, hey, instead of giving this money to the New York Times, we also are offering it to the LA Times and the Washington Post. And the three of them are then competing to provide additional science technology. And now the whole industry could come back. This would be a great way to fly in the face of what China is doing, which is stealing content and ip we could show people and there's a important thing you know when i'm on this trip here in singapore i'm getting like some really interesting feedback which i'll save for a little later in the show because i don't want to go into politics and take it too hard of a term but i'm getting a lot of feedback on the united states in the last five months from folks and it's not pretty this you know could be a way for us to set an example for the planet so great story yeah it's a great pickup um can i just show you how different uh some views are in the industry are to yours just because look i'm a writer you and i make podcasts i'm on your side here just financially but here's here's nick clegg uh about fairness oh that that too but i'm just trying to say that i'm biased but uh nick clegg who previously was uh met his head of yeah anyways no seriously this guy 100 nick clegg uh bleep that out obviously but nick clegg and just like the meta guy right oh it's gonna kill the ai industry bull it um and if that's true then he should go work for facebook for free well i mean stock options back he doesn't work for free why should we amen to that this of course is about the uk's current debate about ip licensing the uk is in kind of a weird spot stuck between the us and the eu trying to figure out its own economic path wants to have an ai industry gonna sort out what's gonna happen but that is one perspective from you know nick was at meta for a while and that is in the ai game so i just don't i just don't get why i have to respect their ip if they're not going to respect mine it just so ridiculous i mean facebook if you if you went on to instagram and you scraped all the instagram profiles i know this because companies try to use the facebook data they send legal letters constantly for their ip their ip is their social graph you can find countless lawsuits about people using the Facebook profile data, you know, the Instagram data, just, and that's for like, just to tell you top level, like here are the people on Instagram who are car enthusiasts who are into Corvettes.

25:03So if, if this is true, that Facebook should be able to build their LLM without compensation. Okay, great. So then I can, should be able to build a social network and a social graphing an llm based on scraping instagram's data you do that you took if you took 10 000 instagram profiles the top 10 000 and made a database and sold that to people and let people query it they would sue you you know till the end of the earth and they have it's almost like turnabout's fair play or to quote uh the former senator mb romney uh sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander all right let's move on uh grammarly jason this actually uh came out last Friday.

25:38We didn't get to talk about it. I knew you'd want to hear this. So Grammarly, couple of important things. One, Grammarly is the AI assisted grammar checker. You're a big fan of it here at launch. We all have a license to it. And we have the CEO, Shashir, on the show because it merged with Coda, which we use to build the Twist 500 database. An interesting matchup. We were curious about why they were coming together, what they were going to build. But today we're talking about something a little bit different. General Catalyst was the investor behind both companies, which we thought was probably why they came together because, you know, one of their major shareholders liked the deal.

26:12Now it turns out GC has a thing called the customer value fund, which pulls from its major funds. But what it does is it provides capital to its portfolio companies without taking an equity stake in return. They get quote, a capped return linked to revenue generated from the capital. So essentially this is like revenue based financing, which we've heard about ad nauseum five years ago, but they're going to put a billion dollars into Grammarly under this rubric, which is a huge amount of money. And the idea here, as far as I can tell, is the go-to-market motion for Grammarly works. You can put money in, you get more money back.

26:49They want to do product work with their money, with the, you know, code a deal to build this AI future writing platform thing. So they're going to use general catalyst money to keep growing at the same time. Win-win, Jason, or risky? I'm curious what your experience in the industry tells you about this deal. Yeah. So number one, these two products are two of my favorite products in business. I legitimately pay and use both of these products daily. So shout out to the teams at both of them. And I think they probably came together because, as you said, they were both portfolio companies of GCs. And so SaaS is a difficult business and maybe they thought, hey, we could put these two companies together and have a stronger company.

27:31This will help increase the value of the company that GC has already invested in. So if they have some LPs who want to get a return on capital, you get the double benefit. You're loaning them money instead of having them take the money from a bank. So it's all in the family. And then you increase sure equity state without adding more shares to the company and selling shares to other investors. So GC, if they own 20%, let's say they own 25 % of these two companies, they don't want another person to come in and own another 25 % and dilute them down to 20 by issuing new shares, the same number of shares in the company, you give them this revolving credit line, I guess.

28:14And who knows the terms of how you can tap it? It might be up to a billion. There's a term called covenants. and the covenants are things you have to you know live up to so in a venture loan you have to keep a certain amount of revenue a certain debt to revenue ratio etc in this case i wouldn't be surprised if they said hey you can pull down 10 million but then you have to show the results of it you have to keep your customer acquisition costs here so it's a big number yeah i think it could work now you you checked with them do they have 700 million in revenue for grammarly Yeah. So they announced this number.

28:52They said we have, I think, annualized revenue of more than 700 million and they're profitable. So I reached out and I'm like, month times 12? ARR, quarter times four. And profitable is, and I say this with nothing but love to startups, a flexible metric at times. So I wanted to kind of dig in. And they were like, we have nothing to add past our blog post. So I'll interpret this for everybody. But you did check the facts. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, we had the facts. We just wanted to go one layer below, but they're being tied to the chest with it. So my thought of this is simple. 700 million in revenue, no matter if it's ARR, quarter times 12, four, whatever, is incredibly impressive.

29:30This is an at scale business. It's IPO ready. Profitable, I don't care if it's on a cash basis, a gap basis, an adjusted EBITDA basis, whatever. It means that the company is healthy. So we have a very large, healthy company. And that to me undergirds why they would get up to a billion dollars in this sort of like non-equity capital assistance, which is essentially a loan, by the way, I guess. That's what it is. You can think of it that way. That's what it is. It's a revolving credit line. It's a loan of some type. It probably has some conditions on it. And I don't think it's one of these things where they actually put a billion dollars into their bank account.

30:04Yeah. Usually when you have these things, you can tap them. so you pull some down and then when you pull it down that's when the interest starts all right if you're a startup you need to sign up for uh notion that's right n-o-t-i-o-n notion.com slash twist to sign up for free right now why because your whole company should run on notion my entire company runs on notion we've built all these tools to run our venture firm to run our production for our podcasts inside of Notion. And we don't need to have developers, but we can build databases. And those databases now have thousands of startups in it, and we can put all kinds of information in there.

30:45Everything in one simple place, wikis, document sharing, note-taking, project management, all powered by AI now. We just upgraded to the AI. It's awesome. Everything in one space, simple, powerful, beautifully designed on your mobile phone. Get started for free, notion.com slash twist. To start for free, I'll say it again, third time. You gotta do it right now. Notion.com slash twist to take the first step for getting organized and productive and having all the chaos in your life make sense. That's what it does. You go from chaotic to flawless with Notion.com slash twist. So you wouldn't want to pull the billion dollars down on day one and be paying 10 % on that or 12 % on it or whatever it is, because that would be that you'd have to service it at a very large rate.

31:29It'd be$10 million a month or something. You'd be crazy, right? 12 million a month that you'd be paying back just to sit on it so you pull down 25 million you do some huge egg campaign uh and then you make that money back and then you pay it back you know that kind of thing so great great uh to see this and i think this is a sign of strength in the sas market which is a interesting yeah it's a sign of strength in the sas market that the number of seats at companies because of static team size because of the layoffs we We talked about the 3 % at Microsoft on, we had a big debate about like, is management going away?

32:06And, you know, my position on all in this past week was like, I think management and these layoffs, you know, are coming to white collar. They're happening right now. Management is using AI tools and everybody's doing more work. Everybody who's working right now in business sees AI replacing people or making people bionic. if that's the case then if you're a grammarly and you were selling into microsoft just as an example and they laid off three percent now you have three percent less revenue from microsoft so you need to come up with new ways to charge which means either raising your prices per seat or moving off the per seat model and moving to a consumption model which people really didn't like the consumption model they liked the you know per seat model because it was like oh i can kind of put this against a person's salary and I'm going to spend 5 % of the person's salary.

32:57So if the average person at Microsoft is getting a hundred thousand, we spend$5 ,000 on the tools they use. It almost seems like, yeah, a chef might spend 5 % of their salary on the knives and cutlery and equipment they use, right? It kind of makes sense, but I'm a little worried about the SaaS companies with that headwind of, hey, our customers, we can't land and expand if the companies we sell into are contracting. Yeah. Right. This is a TBD, but it's great to see a company like this. We wouldn't be surprised if next year we see them file. 700 million is plenty of revenue to go. I would love to see that, but I have one last intra-venture capital thought here.

33:39So we've talked on the show pretty much three times a week about the lack of liquidity, not enough DPI from investors back to LPs. You'd like to put it under the umbrella of the wrath of Khan. Here's my question. If General Catalyst is going to give Grammarly, let's just call it $50 million blocks for the sake of simplicity, put that capital into them and then receive back pretty quickly that capital plus some, does it return the gains on that to LPs? Could it? Is this a way that it could unlock faster returns yeah it's basically a way for those lps to make a different type of return and there are some people who like to be in corporate credit and there's some people who like to be in venture and they tend to be the same people so they probably went to their lps and said does anybody want to also have this as a vehicle to return x amount of money corporate debt and corporate credit which i think is what this would technically be turned into corporate credit.