The Case for Adam Neumann + driverDoc's Josh Kolar on automation for trucking companies | E1844

0:00You said it so well before, it's just a real estate business. Yeah, you don't have to overthink this. There's nothing special about it. But what actually is special about WeWork was Adam Neumann. The thing that's special about WeWork is the brand. Yes, he is their advantage. Exactly like Richard Branson. He stole Richard Branson's playbook. This Week in Startups is brought to you by Northwest Registered Agent. When starting your business, it's important to use a service that will actually help you. Northwest Registered Agent is that service. they'll form your company fast give you the documents you need to open a business bank account and even provide you with mail scanning and a business address to keep your personal privacy intact visit northwestregisteredagent.com slash twist to get a 60 % discount on your next LLC lemon.io get access to lemon hire a platform with more than 80 ,000 pre-vetted engineers that you can interview within 48 hours.

1:01Get$2 ,000 off your first hire at lemon.io slash hire today. And.techdomains has a new program called startups.tech, where you can get your company featured on This Week in Startups. Go to startups.tech slash Jason to find out how. All right, everybody. Welcome to This Week in Startups. Some quick news up top. Producer Nick is here. What's in the news, producer Nick? All right. All right. So we have some Adam Newman news. Yeah, this is very near and dear to my heart. This is why I'm on today because this is my guy. This is my guy. Yeah. I love Adam Newman. I do. And this is not like a bit. I sincerely love him.

1:40I think he built an amazing company. I think he's a great entrepreneur. I think he deserves a second chance. Call me crazy. Here we go. I'm calling you crazy. I saw him at the FII conference, by the way. He was in Riyadh running around at parties and whatever, talking to folks. Yeah. So yeah, he's like six, five in person, right? He's a giant. Hard to miss. He's a, yeah, it feels like six, three or four. It looks like a point guard in the NBA. Yeah. So he stirred up some craziness on X because some comments that he made about WeWork's bankruptcy went viral and everybody's talking about him coming back now.

2:13So before we get to that, let's just queue up what happened originally. So WeWork filed for bankruptcy see earlier this week, their recent performance was really bad. Q2 revenue,$844 million up only 4 % year over year. And via Reuters, WeWork's lease costs made up 74 % of its revenue in Q2. Its net loss was$397 million. And at the end of Q2, they only had$680 million in total available liquidity and only$205 million of cash on hand. Shares were down 98 % year to date when they went bankrupt to a market cap of$68 million. And their SPAC valuation was$9 billion. So that overall, that was a 99.3 % decline.

2:53When they went out public. Yes, which was they agreed upon in 2021. And then they de-SPAC at some point last year. Makes sense. They have these leases that just don't make sense. They signed very expensive leases at the top of the market using the vision funds money. And here we go. So I guess the question is, when you go into bankruptcy, who gets to keep the equity there? Are those leaseholders going to have a claim on them? And I wonder how all of this works out and who winds up owning WeWork. So right now, SoftBank owns 70 % of the company and they admitted that WeWork needs to restructure its leases if it wants to survive.

3:29And if it doesn't, it's going to go out of business. So what happened was WeWork, as part of its bankruptcy filing, listed$15 billion in assets and$18.7 billion of liabilities as of June 30th. So basically they need to wipe out$3 billion of debt on its balance sheet. And here's how they plan on doing that. They're going to immediately reject 69 leases. They're immediately starting renegotiations with 400 landlords. They have 777 total locations across 39 countries to about 230 in the US. And then they're going to convert or attempt to convert about$3 billion of their debt into equity with SoftBank retaining an ownership stake.

4:09Yeah, because SoftBank, when they gave the last bit of money, it was probably senior debt as a loan, as opposed to them buying shares in the company. So they knew that this was a possibility. Yeah, do you want to explain how that works? Sure. So you could invest in a company and buy shares, right? Then you can also give a loan to a company. When you give a loan to a company, that would be called senior debt, right? And there's like a debt stack. And so equity comes below debt. If a company runs, you know, goes bankrupt, the debt holders basically can foreclose on the company. And this depends on how things are written, etc.

4:45So while SoftBank may have invested money for equity previously, I think what happened was in these last rounds, they gave them debt, knowing, hey, this thing could all come apart, in which case we would be the senior secured provider of debt, and then the leases would come after them so i think that's what's happening here is soft bank set it up so if we work were to go bankrupt which they probably anticipated they took that massive risk with the debt they take that massive risk and then they get to take over the company essentially when that converts but there's a bankruptcy judge who makes sure that all of this occurs and the people who are in line to get money get paid and so who's most senior probably we work yeah yeah i'm sorry probably SoftBank.

5:29You're right, right, right. WeWork put out a statement. They said 92 % of the company's lenders had agreed to convert their secure debt into equity. And WeWork will continue operating its non-US and Canada locations as normal, but it's restructuring a bunch of leases. I guess the most expensive ones were in the US and Canada. So here's where it gets a little crazy. Of course, we just mentioned Adam Newman put out this statement. Jason, I'll let you read it. Well, I thought this was great. And the way he released this, I guess, is he didn't go through the press he just i guess sent out a press release with you know a little bit of a raw press release let's just say it has been challenging for me to watch from the sidelines since 2019 as we work has failed to take advantage of a product that is more relevant today than ever before it's a bit of a run-on sentence there's some grammar issues there uh which leads me to believe that he actually wrote it that he actually wrote it yeah so like if you were to just look at it it's a run-on sentence it should be two separate sentences you know uh or at least some commas going on there you restructure it newman's statement continued uh quote i believe that with the right strategy and team a reorganization will enable we work to emerge successfully again not a well-written sentence a little bit kludgy so this would be i think him saber rattling that maybe he wants to come in and play some role into this because he's saying hey i have the right strategy i have the right team so the bankruptcy judge or to soft bank when this thing goes private do you think masa yoshi-san wants to bring him back or merge it with his new company that would be the ultimate crazy is after their incredible breakup you know if what if newman comes back and says i want to own the we work brand i've got this other flow thing going i've got money from andresen i can get some money from the middle east region and i have my own money and maybe he cuts a deal masa to come back and that would be unprecedented and crazy except steve jobs did it or it fired him and he came back so this is you know and everybody here in silicon valley has the this archetype of the steve jobs comeback in mind and so adam newman has been running the steve jobs playbook he left he started a competing adjacent company with flow it's a real estate company it's not dissimilar residential not commercial right residential not commercial but it's residential for nomads who are workers so it's work from home so how is that different you know you're still working in a space it's just you're working and living and remember we work had started we live so is it different it's exactly the same vision just starting with residential working backwards to work as opposed to starting with work and working backwards to residential so i I would argue it's the same thing.

8:09It's space that's hip for young people. And you try to make a margin on the space by buying low, making it well designed and selling it for a higher price. And parties are actually accepted and not frowned upon because you're not at work. You're at your residential space. Absolutely. If you're at work, you know, in the era of buttoned up work and keeping things professional, the beer was always an issue, right? They had beer kegs. That was always triggering. And handing out tequila shots and everybody. And him handing out tequila, always a recipe for disaster at work, is people getting blitzkrieg drunk.

8:42Summer camp, people, you know, maybe having too much fun, you know, treating it like Burning Man. So, yeah. By the way, I know someone who worked at WeWork now, in like the 2017, 2018 era. And he said, was it? It's a woman, and she said it was the most fun time. She's like, I will never enjoy working at any place ever as much as I enjoyed working at WeWork. She was like, it was awesome. You know, you can have a lot of fun at work. It's just at work, you can build up liabilities by having too much fun. And this is where like professionalism really matters. It's funny too, talking to her, like she is almost like an Adam Neumann acolyte.

9:20She loves him. She's like, he was the best. He treated us so well. How do you think Uber people feel about Travis? I was just going to make that same comparison. And listen, if Dara goes for another five years, buys back 20 % of Uber stock, hits, you know,$250 billion valuation and Cloud Kitchens becomes worth$100 billion, which is on the track to do, I would guess. And then all of a sudden those become one company and Travis comes back, return of the king style. I like it. I like it. I always liked the redemption story. I'm with you. Our friend, Eric Newcomer did some digging around Newman, I think in his newsletter.

9:52What did he have to say? Yeah. So he spoke to a couple of anonymous sources. One person who he called a source familiar with the matter told him that real people with real money asked adam newman if he was interested in getting involved in a group that's going to participate in the restructuring a former we work executive that he talked to again anonymous said quote he texted him this i think adam newman comes in and buys the company he's well capitalized and given that the board is now almost exclusively restructuring specialists they will take care of all the big problems getting out of leases making the company significantly smaller across the board establishing a sustainable business model etc yeah and you bring in the hype man yeah yeah and then And he was also told that Newman's non-compete with WeWork just ended in October.

10:34That's interesting information. I always discount former executives. There are, you know, hundreds of former executives at WeWork. Who knows what they know? But, you know, speculation is fun. It makes total sense. Who else wants to run the business, right? That's the issue. You need somebody who wants to run the business. And then who better to run the business than the former founder? And who's going to make it more exciting? You know, Elon always says, like, fate loves irony. like the most entertaining outcome is the most likely and most probable this is the most entertaining outcome so as a yeah you know uh media sphere right blogs social media we kind of steer towards the most entertaining outcome unconsciously right and this is like a really interesting theory of media okay trump's crazy you know larger than life he's the most entertaining and then people all of a sudden you know despite what happened on the insurrection or whatever you know trump it's like the whole country is like steering towards oh but it's more entertaining when he does stuff yeah and it can be very dangerous driven i think it's like some primordial uh thing where you know when there's an accident on the highway we all look at it and slow down yeah makes no logical sense to slow down and look at an accident you're not going to see anything you haven't seen before just a bunch of wrecked cars right you've seen it a thousand times it's terrible but everybody slows down to see it we can't not look at the train wreck and so this is like a train wreck this is like shakespeare it's drama so we as humans are drawn to the drama conflict equals drama drama equals engagement so here you have it massive conflict massive attention and then it steers towards that outcome because all the energy starts going towards that outcome just like elon buying twitter right it was like this major controversy this conflict conflict conflict and then all of a sudden he owns twitter boom and then since he's owned it right all this conflict going on and this drama and you know uh it starts growing and you know uh becomes super important again i also feel like this is the most entertaining outcome definitely starting a business used to be such a painful process you needed to get a lawyer there were tons of fees it was a mess but not anymore just check out northwest registered agent they're going to help you form your company fast.

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13:44I feel like in this whole last like year or so of the entire crypto industry coming down and like the Goodfellas theme song with Doquan and SPF, I feel like Adam Newman unfairly kind of gets grouped in with those people. And maybe he did do some things on the margins that were not great, right? Buying the buildings with his own money, leasing them out to WeWork, owning the trademark and leasing it out for a couple million dollars a year for like personal Okay. Those are, that's angle shooting. Yeah. That's not crime. So an angle shooting is you're not breaking the rules of poker. You're just trying to find a little angle on the person, right?

14:20So an example of angle shooting in poker, and people look at angle shooting as like a little, eh, smarmy. So owning the IP and then selling it back is a little angle shot, right? Obviously. Or owning the building and then leasing it back. Is it against the law or not? No, but it's an angle shot. so in poker if you're like start talking to the person like hey you want to chop the pot you know we're both all in before i turn my cards if you want to split it yes or no and so that's an angle shot right i'm trying to get information from you then you say okay i'll split it you say okay well it's not binding or you just yeah are trying to get information from a person you know and you take some angle shot another angle shot might be this guy did this in a poker tour and over again he would throw out um like three chips you know three thousand dollars and he would say uh all in and then what is it the three thousand dollars or is it the all in and it turns out the all in is what matters not the thing so you can kind of make a mistake on purpose in order to like bait people into a hand that's angle shooting so he was he's a bit of an angle shooter but he's not theranos he built a real business he is an incredible marketer and he knows how to throw a hell of a party and people young people like to party now you could disagree with it but that was actually Richard Branson's brand was to be a little kitschy, to be a little cheeky, to be a little sexy.

15:40I mean, the name of the brand Virgin was meant to elicit a response from people about virginity and, you know, sex and everything. So, you know, I think to a much lesser extent, Adam Newman has that Richard Branson showmanship in him, right? I just think he gets roped in unfairly. Like, I don't think anything that he really did. And he also built a huge business. And another thing I see getting thrown around all the time is like, oh, he cashed out, you know,$700 million at the peak. Yeah. He wasn't selling those shares to retail investors. He wasn't dumping them on anyone. No, no, this wasn't a spat.

16:11Those were purchased from him. This wasn't like, you know, some crypto bag being sent to, you know, or some NFT drop from a celebrity. No, this, he sold it to SoftBank, you know, these are the most sophisticated investor arguably in the world. Now you may disagree with his betting style, but to say he's not amongst the most sophisticated in the world in the history of investing would be crazy. He's one of the he was the richest man on the planet for a while. He's a sophisticated person. So 100 % agree with you. Congratulations to Adam Neumann for still being in the mix. Let's just all keep in mind, it's not a technology business, a real estate business.

16:45It has very slim margins. It's never going to be some$100 billion company. It's gonna be a couple billion dollar company with a 10 % margin. It's never going to be some great epic company. But it might be a fun company, just like Virgin, you know, Air or Virgin Atlantic, you know, was a fun company. You know, Virgin Airlines may be a terrible business, but it was a fun business. And it, you know, was motivating for him to do it. It's just not a tech business. That's where I think people get themselves. So you're in on the comeback. You're in on the return of the team. Oh, all in. Hell yeah. 100 % excited.

17:15Team Newman. This weekend startups is Team Newman, baby. Totally. Totally. You know what? It's more entertaining for us. I mean, it's fantastic. What if he makes it work? You know, the thing he did was he bought really crummy office space, C-level office space, jazzed it up, convinced people to come to the Tenderloin or some terrible area in, you know that's a little bit dangerous on the fringe and uh did the arbitrage he's just got to get back to that by the lowest possible real estate which by the way you're going to be able to do right now and so it's a good time a great time for him to come in it's very similar to the time he started was it called green desk the original yes it was green desk good memory yeah it's just like it was originally like for people who uh it was like environmentally branded originally and they had some place in like williamsburg some little building in williamsburg He sold the green desk to that real estate person and then left to do WeWork.

18:01I remember like the whole, that, that, and that was an angle shot, right? He's just like, let's just sell this back to this guy. And then we'll start a new brand and make it even bigger. So congrats to Adam Newman. It's super entertaining. It doesn't really have much to do with tech, but great. He should go buy all these crummy buildings in San Francisco or these great buildings in San Francisco that have no leases and are selling 25 cents on the dollar. Like if somebody gave him, I'm not kidding here, like$10 billion to go buy real estate and figure it out after he would probably be one of the best stewards of capital if you put some controls in place like an actual board yeah that's what the 2.0 should be whoever enables him this time around should just have proper governance don't let him run amok and then have some good people around him to make sure he doesn't you know go for like we'll scale this sign any lease and we'll figure it out later we'll figure it out later is not a plan a plan is a plan.

18:50And that's always, I think, the lesson of the ZERP environment. Like, you got to be very careful if you can thread that needle. People say, oh, Travis and, you know, Uber were, you know, subsidizing, VCs were subsidizing the rides, whatever. They had a plan. Trust me, it was a plan. And there was a plan in China, and there was a plan for the US. And the plan in China was always, let's go for the gold. If we get the silver, we stay. If not, we sell and we own some percentage of Didi. That was the strategy. You know, Travis explained that strategy to him because I said, hey, this we're losing a lot of money in China, what's going on?

19:24It's like, we're going to go for the gold. But if we don't get it, we'll go for silver, which is owning part a large part, a meaningful part of that company Didi. And that's exactly what happened. And it worked out great. So I think you just have to have a really good plan here. I don't think WeWork had a good plan last time around too much money to a mercurial guy. With no controls, with no controls this time, give them the money but have there be an investment committee that he has to bring each deal to and the investment committee says yes or no that would be what i would do i give him a 10 billion dollar facility he can buy as much real estate as he wants um he just has to it has to pass the sniff test with this board and that board you know makes him jump through a couple of hoops to get approval to buy those things as opposed to him just going bonkers and starting a school remember that he started school he got the wave machine he started investing in surfers like no bueno there that's same thing that happened with sbf right um there was no controls no board and he just bought whatever he wanted invested in bought politicians bought celebrities invested in tech companies invested in crypto projects he didn't care it's just like that was from that was designed from the start he was that was he sbf was machiavellian to me he was like ends justify the means and the end is like saving the world so i can do whatever i want basically The question is, like, SBF is like a poor man's like Lex Luthor on that side, right?

20:47Of the, like, Legion of Doom. Okay. But is Adam Neumann part of the Legion of Doom? No. What? Come on. Or is he like an anti-hero who's just difficult to get along with in the Justice League? You know, like, is he like an X-Men who's kind of like Deadpool? I think the last thing you'd ever say about Adam Neumann is that he's difficult to get along with. I think that is his one strength, is that he's amazingly - Is he evil or good? is he part of justice league or legion of doom or is he an independent contractor i think he kind of falls in that independent gunslinger boba fett area you know what i would say about the empire or the rebellion business you said it so well before it's just a real estate business yeah you don't have to there's nothing special about it but what actually is special about we work was adam newman the thing that's special about we work is the brand yes he is their advantage Exactly like Richard Branson.

21:38He stole Richard Branson's playbook. You make it a party, you make it sexy and make it fun. You make it a little out of control, a little dangerous shots, whatever virgin you, you go on a virgin flight, you know, maybe the flight attendants male and female are a little more attractive and maybe they're having drinks with the customers. Like I've been to Necker Island a couple of times, not to flex, I was invited. Um, but one, a couple times for birthday parties or whatever and i can tell you they recruit the staff at necker island based on like how much fun they are and they're partying you know doing shots having a great time dancing they're they're into it you know it's it's like whatever the branson comparison is a good one i like that it's really solid i think yeah uh so congratulations shout out to adam newman come on the pod anytime all right all right and what's what we got in the back half of the show josh Kohler from DriverDoc up next.

22:32Great. Awesome. So up next, more of these founder interviews. So we'll get a little news in the show, little interviews in the show, classic twist episode. Enjoy everybody. See you next time. Bye. If you've ever had to hire developers, you know, it is a giant headache. Are they built from the startup grind? How do you know if you hire the wrong developer, man, maybe they're going to drag your whole team down. Maybe they take you down some rabbit hole and you don't know what's going on. And then not only are you back to square one, You might be behind the eight ball, right? But if you hire the right developer, that could be a game changer.

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23:38That's right,$2 ,000 off at lemon.io slash hire, L-E-M-O-N dot I-O slash hire. Hire with confidence at lemon.io slash hire. All right, everybody. I just had John from Motive on a few days ago. and today we've got another founder building in an old, slow, incumbent industry. You know, those industries that really need technologies. In this case, we're talking about trucking. Josh Kolar is the CEO and co-founder of DriverDoc. This is an all-in-one digital management platform for trucking companies. Basically, here's the problem. 97 % of trucking companies, they got fewer than 20 trucks. This is a fragmented market.

24:20And these smaller companies, they rely on paper, let's be honest, facts, manual processes. So what does DriverDoc do? Well, they provide tools for the invoicing, the document management, and all that kind of stuff. Josh, welcome to the program. Thank you so much, Jason. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Okay, so you're in Nebraska. We've got a lot of friends in Nebraska, and you came up with this idea to help trucking companies get more efficient in this fragmented market. Explain to everybody, And by the way, we're excited to be investors in the company. We love these boring businesses that really need technology.

24:56They're laggards in some cases, but they're important businesses. And that means if they are laggards, man, the distance between when they're getting off fax and paper and using smartphones and AI, that's a big jump, right? It's like they're skipping three steps. So tell us, how did you come up with the idea for the company? What does it do? How's it going? It came out of necessity from my background and experience in the industry. I've got 15 plus years of experience at some of the largest transportation providers, UPS, Union Pacific, and Warner Enterprises. And so these are top tier transportation companies.

25:32And so getting to see a lot of the pain points, firsthand experience, and then building around some of these companies to solve some of these pain points, gave me an understanding that truly this industry, like you said, is lagging. And it's just unsiloed. siloed. You think about what I got to see with UPS, very close system, all the way from the drivers and their truck having digital communication. Think you used to sign for packages. Now the Amazon experience has changed the game. It's now a photo in your house. And so it's that core concept of when I was at Union Pacific and Warner, we're still engaging with drivers.

26:12We're still relying upon paper and we didn't have the Amazon experience. And that's what this industry wanted. So I took a leap of faith and said, hey, I've got the expertise. I've got a network that I believe can help me achieve this. And so in 2019, left the corporate industry space and decided to start to research and design essentially the starting point to do bill of lading digitization for this space. To recap there, you're working in the industry. You got a lot of insights. You got a lot of frustration. You decide you're going to become a founder. Yes. Now, when you become a founder, you look for an opportunity to build a product that delights users and either saves them time, saves them money, or makes them laugh and entertains them.

27:00I always tell people those are the three categories. People forget that last one. Now, I don't think bills of laden are going to make people laugh or cry necessarily. I'm sure they might at moments. But really, this is about saving time and saving money, correct? Yeah. To kind of give you the concepts there of payment terms, right? If you start with the payment terms in the space and the industry are anywhere from 45, 60 days. And so this bill of lading document, yes, it tells you what's being put into like a trailer or container. But in most instances, that was the support that the freight actually got delivered.

27:37And because that wasn't being done digitally, it was being exchanged by hand, was causing anywhere from seven to 10 days delay in getting paid. So you think about, yeah, 30, 45, 60-day terms, go ahead and throw another seven to 10 days on that. And that's a huge issue. So that's the first piece you built was the ability to take a smartphone out, take a picture of a bill of lading, digitize it and turn it into, you know, essentially a smart contract or a smart document, if I'm correct. Yeah. Yes. And so that's what really took us to the point of you had to have a way to digitize it. We had to have a way to go back now and show it to some of the larger transportation providers, and some of the larger shippers.

28:29That use case that you just described really became paramount over the last six to 10 months for us to go show to the likes of a Warner, to go show to the likes of Union Pacific and show them that we know their pain point, but also give them a tangible tool that can be used for them, but also seen as something they can provide to their customers. We gave them a tool that they could see themselves and grow bigger into it. How do you get into these trucking companies and make money? Because it's super fragmented and then you're introducing some new technology. How do you get in there and get them to adopt this?

29:10Or is it just bottoms up? You tell people like, hey, this app's out there for free. Go ahead and use it. It's a tool that's available for, I can see the both ways of doing and you can just put the tool out there and say, hey, there's a free tool out there. And then, you know, oh, if you want to play multiplayer mode or you want to have the pro features, then upgrade. So what's your go-to-market strategy here and how's that going? We really looked at it as it's a tool for the driver. Another part of the entry point was every one of those documents to date, even if there was a scanning app, was all going back to someone's disaggregated email inbox.

29:45And so part of this was offering a portal into the back office of the company, which created organization. and then truly the API integration capability to take the document and put it directly upstream for them to use it next into their core systems. There are some, I guess, legacy apps that manage all of their stuff. So you're just helping with that first step of getting off of paper, yeah? Correct, correct. And then do you eventually target those legacy apps and try to replace those? How do you think about, hey, I'm a startup with a limited amount of resources. is, you know, I can charge for this app or this processes, but I suppose it's probably 10 % of the process.

30:29There's another 80 or 90 % to go. How much is what you're currently doing? And then tell us about the big vision here and how this becomes, you know, 100 million in revenue. You nailed it. It's 10 % is what we're saying is it's light OCR capabilities. It's light integration capabilities to take that document and put it upstream. The next part of this is truly we think of like the next 20-30 % is getting accounts receivable automation, billing automation, as we start to think about what they do with that document in that process upstream. So instead of people doing, I look at my system of record, and I look at this document, it's bringing both of that together and automating that person process today.

31:20Okay, we're back with another segment of Pitch It to JCal, brought to you by the fine folks at.techdomains. .techdomains is giving Twist listeners the chance to show off their startups on This Week in Startups. So go to startups.tech slash Jason to apply. There's only one rule, you need to have a.techdomain name to get featured. This week, we have a great pitch from NetAI.tech. NetAI.tech is building an AI-powered analytics platform that'll help mobile providers analyze the traffic data on their networks. People in the industry call this deep traffic analytics. Basically, NetAI.tech serves mobile providers in two ways.