Twilio Bets Small, DeepSeek Scares & the GameOn Fraud | E2076

0:00So Meta has a plan to build a data center that's so large it actually comes with its own map. So I don't know if you saw it's on threads but here is Mark Zuckerberg showing a superimposition. of his future two gigawatt data center on top of the Manhattan map. And Jason, just for folks out there, how much of Manhattan do you think this is covering? 35, 40 %? It's, yeah. I mean, it's all of Central Park. It's, yeah, it's giant. It's going from 125th Street down to 34th, maybe. I mean, this is gigantic. This Week in Startups is brought to you by FitBod, Are you tired of doing the same workouts at the gym?

0:41FitBod will build you personalized workouts that help you progress with every set. Get 25 % off your subscription or try out the app for free when you sign up now at fitbod.me slash twist. Squarespace. Turn your idea into a new website. Go to squarespace.com slash twist for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code twist to save 10 % off your first purchase of a website or domain. And Horatio. Customer experience can make or break your business. Horatio provides top-tier outsourcing solutions to support and delight your customers so you can focus on growth. Visit HireHoratio.com slash twist and get$2 ,000 off your initial setup.

1:16Hey, everybody. Welcome back to This Week in Startups. My name is Alex, and I am one of your two co-hosts. I'm Alex over on X, and I'm joined today, as always, by the other This Week in Startups co-host. It's Jason Calacanis. J-Cal has been under the weather, but he is out, and he is back, and he is ready to rock. Jason, how are you? I'm back in the game. I'm back in the game. You know, sometimes you push yourself a little too hard, Alex. And at my age, sometimes the world pushes back and you're just like, whoa, you can get knocked on your ass. So I went to the inauguration, which for a never Trumper, people know, you know, I wasn't always the biggest fan of Donald Trump.

1:54But, you know, I always root for whoever wins for the presidency, just as an American, I believe should. You know, I went to this inauguration and it was quite nice. you know the republicans uh they have a very wide tent uh they don't like criticism all that much you know these all political people a little sensitive about criticism uh so you know having jcal around is a little bit sensitive like oh my god am i gonna say something critical of the president oh i called the hot swap of biden you know i i mean i call balls and strikes anyway long story short i go to all these parties i have a great time um but you know i just gotten back from japan which was a last minute trip that i wasn't planning on doing after i had been in uh you know tahoe for the the holiday break and so this is like three trips back to back to back you know austin tahoe niseko hokkaido back to austin to dc to back to austin i get to like uh you know the day after the inauguration there's all these balls going on candlelight this whatever starlight gala that i'm invited to everything the invites are flowing famous people in my dms whatever you know selfies you saw it on socials i just wake up in the morning my voice is gone this is i guess on tuesday of this week i mean it's even a blur and uh i i don't i i just pass out i'm in my hotel room 24 hours straight oh wow yeah sweats everything chills body aches felt like I get hit by a truck and it's like 19 below zero in DC is the most miserable place you've ever been.

3:34DC is not my favorite city. Let's leave it at that. I mean, um, I did like a four, I did four days there. That's enough for four years. Okay. To my full little bit like Vegas, you single digit days, get out. Yeah. 48 hours. I'm out. Absolutely. I think that's exactly right. I can do 48 hours there. Don't need a hotel room. I get back. My wife says, you know what I'm sending Because we just moved here, I don't have a primary care doctor yet. Need to get a recommendation. I had the whole thing dialed in when I was in the Bay Area. I had a concierge-type doctor. So if you get sick, the doctor comes to your house.

4:09It's quite nice, right? I don't have any of that. So I go to Urgent Care. Shout out to Urgent Care. Just mad apreche for Urgent Care. Mad apreche. It's so efficient. in Texas urgent care. There's like 17 of them between me and my house. I go to urgent care. Urgent care has the testing thing right on site. So there's no guessing for influenza, strep. I love it. COVID, everything. So they're sticking things in my nostrils, down my throat. And yep, within 15 minutes, they're like, you have influenza. Then they give me, there's a new flu medicine. I get the new flu medicine and it worked like a charm it's one pill I'm gonna tell you the name of this I just want to give a mad appreash to uh Zofluza x-o-f-l-u-z-a you know usually take the Tamiflu and that's like a bunch of pills I don't know if you ever taken that but I get this Zofluza and uh you know another day of the hot sweats and the whatever uh shakes and my throat's terrible and then hey you know i i got yesterday i was 80 today i feel like 85 and i'm back in the game i wake up this morning i'm about to get on air i have my coffee i go turn the shower on hot water's done no so that's where i'm wearing my nyx cap sorry folks you don't get to see the mullet today it's a bit of a mess but i um long story uh i'm back in the game glad to be home i've missed you a little bit because you know you've been traveling so we've been doing some you know different types of shows different different setups i love consistency though and so i'm just like i'm like i'm gonna be healthy on monday you're gonna be healthy on monday let's keep going once you get back from sf we'll be back to normal so yeah yes because there's a couple things going on in the world it's not like uh we had a slow winter you know no i mean that the the tech news keeps popping and then it seems like a lot of what's happening in this new administration is around tech and business and you know tariffs and taxes and crypto i mean it's just going to be nonstop and i guess the pace at which they're going feels to be um you know they're kind of shot out of a cannon as they say in the business but what's on the docket today let's get let's get to work so we had a we had a number of fun things one there is a new case of fraud uh involving a startup named game on that i might want to touch on because it's one of those fraud cases when you're like what did you think was going to happen uh we also have uh notes on static team size from Twilio and how I think that theme might actually need to be tweaked to be a little bit more extreme.

6:48We have notes on Trump's EOs on AI and crypto. We have notes on building the next supercomputer. A lot of big hardware announcements, not just from OpenAI, not just from XAI, but also Meta's in the mix. And then finally, what about R1 and DeepSeek, the Chinese company that has taken the AI benchmark by store? That's pretty interesting as well. So Jason, dealer's choice, what do you want? You know, I really like this Twilio static team size plus plus. What's that about? Because I know return to office mandates are starting to kick in this year. A lot of people said, hey, 2025 is the year we get back in the office five days a week.

7:25And there's a lot of hand wringing about that. But this one sounds even a little more extreme. So yeah, so Twilio, for those who are a little bit out of the loop, was a well-known startup. WinPublic back in 2016, it's the company that was famous for helping developers plug into SMS networks and just telephony in general. They provided the bridge essentially to get you off the internet onto phones if you needed that. And it became a really big company, Jason. Jeff Lawson, it's been on the program many times. I was just about to say, Jeff Lawson was the guy. And then in the post-COVID world, growth slowed.

7:58Jeff Lawson's strategy kind of fell afoul of investors. And eventually he was, I'm going to say, from what I can see, defenestrated, just kicked out. Ousted. And ousted. and they brought in some different folks who we've been tracking this company. But I was going through their investor pitch because they dropped some notes last night and their stock was up 20 % today last time that I checked. Actually now 21%. So I'm going through the documents, Jason, just reading, trying to figure out what are people so excited about here? And then it turns out the company has put together a plan that says the following thing.

8:30Okay. So yeah, usually when you see a 20 % jump like that, it's either because of earnings or getting fit in a riff, right? That would be the two possibilities or maybe both. So what the company said was they dropped this number right here. This is their non-GAAP operating margin target for between 2025 and 2027. Essentially, they're shooting for more than 20 % in non-GAAP operating margin, which means for those who don't track this, essentially they have 20 % more revenue than they do operating costs. Sorry, that took me way longer than it should have. Yep. This is better than investors expected.

9:06People are very excited. The thing is, Twilio is doing this with a workforce that they say has declined by 40 % since Q3 2022. So they are not keeping their employee size static. They've cut 40 % in the last couple of years. And I don't think they're about to start increasing their cost basis because this entire pitch is about profitability, cash flow, and operating margins. So to me, Jason, static team size, this thing we talked about all last year, might just be too polite. It might be smaller team size than static team size. That's my pitch. All right, folks, we're a couple of weeks into 2025, and I have a question for you.

9:45How are your New Year's resolutions coming along? For most of us, getting healthy and exercising more, well, they're at the top of the list, right? Right up there with sleep. And you know, these things are all correlated. That's why January is the perfect time to build habits that stick. And I've been using FitBod to keep track of my workouts. It is awesome. It's like having your own personal trainer right in your pocket and on your wrist because the Apple Watch version is so tight. It designs custom workouts for you tailored to whatever your goals are, but it also knows your fitness level and it knows what equipment you have available.

10:18Plus it knows what workouts you've already done. So if you did leg day, now you're going to go to chest and you're going to do core and it will keep leveling up your fitness using machine learning. See, this is the magic of FitBot. They combine machine learning with exercise science to create a workout plan just for you. And it tracks things like your muscle fatigue and your recovery. So you don't overwork or underwork any muscle group. And they will keep your workout fresh with over 1400 videos to guide you through every move. And that's what I need help with. I want to get the technique right.

10:49Because from what I understand, if you don't do the technique right, you're not getting but half the benefit. No, Jim, no problem. You tell Fitball what you have available and it's going to build a workout instantly. Even if I don't have anything, if I'm just in a hotel room, it's going to give me core exercises, floor exercises, all that good stuff to do. And the Apple Watch integration is amazing because I don't have to take my phone out between each set. I beep, beep, boop, and I just log everything right on my watch. Easy peasy, lemon squeezy, kick off 2025 strong and take the guesswork out of working out.

11:21Just open the FitBot app and start making progress. Get 25 % off your FitBot subscription or just try it free right now and get nothing to lose. when you sign up at fitbond.me slash twist. That's F-I-T-B-O-D dot M-E slash twist. I guess this is directly related to AI. And this is something that, you know, gets lost in a lot of the, I guess, celebrations about AI. We saw this Stargate announcement, you know, high-fiving with President Trump and Larry Ellison, Sam Altman and Masayoshi-san. And listen, it is great investment. Hey, we're going to have 100 ,000 jobs created to put in this$500 billion supercomputer.

12:04Okay, great. What I did see in the replies to a lot of those comments, the replies were all, okay, 100 ,000 jobs are being created here. How many are going to be destroyed by AI? Now, that sounds like a bit cynical, right? Of course. but there is some truth to it because as we've seen you know we do it here okay we want to research a topic how much faster are you at researching a topic now than you were three years ago or prior to a chat chippy tea oh i mean for me probably 20 percent just okay not a lot a starting point a good things to look into then i do my own digging but it does provide some early directions yeah okay i would say for somebody who's in their first couple years of work it probably makes them 200 faster right absolutely you know between these two uh numbers is the truth right so for an elite person it makes them 20 faster great for somebody who's a neophyte it makes them 200 faster okay and and that's in year like three of this uh where will be will where will we be in year four, five, and six?

13:13And I think that's what you're seeing in this Twilio number. Now, all big tech was fat and we used to always hire for where we would be in two years. So that was always the plan. But if you want to make your stock price go up, there's a pretty quick way to do it is to just keep expanding earnings. And then you'll expand earnings by getting rid of middle management, getting rid of the DEI department, getting rid of the PR department, getting outsourcing HR, instead of having eight lawyers having six, because the six remaining lawyers are, you know, 50 % faster, 20 % faster, you know, you yourself said you're 20 % faster.

13:56So if you were at TechCrunch right now, or Mattermark back in the day, and there were five of you, and you each got 20 % faster, that means you either got a sixth employee or you can get rid of the weakest of the five members of that team this is moving at a quicker pace than i thought so static team size does need to get updated to a new name which is you know slipping sliding diminishing cutting falling i will we'll find the right word for it but yeah compressing consolidating something in that range but there is some compression going on here um like you're making a zip file where like i think we're just compressing talent and you're going to be able to do more with less.

14:36It used to be called right sizing, but this is really more, it's almost like making elite units. And so if you're not elite, if you're the bottom third of employees, man, you got to really get your skillset up. And if you're in the middle of the pack, I think you do need to wonder, you know, if you're next kind of thing. I think you could draw an extrapolation in your mind of how fast AI models are improving, how fast we're seeing agentic AI go from kind of like hype meme to thing people are playing with to I presume in six months thing we all use and really begin to worry about the bottom third feels right for 2025, bottom half for 2026.

15:21I do worry a little bit about folks who are struggling to pay student loans and mortgages and so forth. But I really think that Klarna gave us an early indicator of what was going on. For those who don't remember, in the middle of December of last year, Klarna said, and I'm quoting here from Insider, Klarna's CEO says the company stopped hiring a year ago because AI, quote, can already do all of the jobs. And they've also seen their team size come down as the profitability has gone up. Business people love to talk about operating leverage, Jason, which is essentially just keeping your costs flat while having more revenue, more gross profit, more operating income, et cetera.

15:54I mean, if AI lets everyone have operating leverage, that's going to create a lot of shareholder value. Huzzah. But I do worry about the overall economy sometimes. I think what people are going to have to do is say, hey, what else can I create in the world? So it's going to force people's hand to be entrepreneurial. If you were part of the group of product managers or middle managers at a company like Google or Facebook, or you were in the DEI department or the PR department or that fifth lawyer, you know, at one of those companies that, you know, did this consolidation or eliminated roles and said, hey, we're just going to be focused on profitability for some time here.

16:33Well, look at your previous company or companies, look at what they did and say, hey, what are they not doing that we always wanted to do there? What was a business opportunity they didn't pursue because the core business was so great, right? If you were at Google or Facebook, there were some products or services they worked on that you can now say, you know, hey, wait a second. If they can do more with less, maybe three of us could go do something more with less and we could make a new product or service. And so more entrepreneurship is what's going to be necessary, I think, to become sustainable.

17:06And then you have this work from home standoff going on concurrently. A lot of those folks who are being exited also probably want to work from home because, hey, that's dope. You and I are at home right now. And so go quit, create a product or service, use these same AI tools that replaced you at Cloner or replaced you at Twilio and make a competing product or service. Or maybe it's like a little nook and cranny that, you know, Facebook or Google or Twilio says, you know, it's not worth focusing on that. It's just too small of an opportunity, but it might be a$10 million a year opportunity or a$5 million a year opportunity, which for four people is a pretty great life.

17:48Yes. Lifestyle business is only a pejorative if you're trying to achieve a venture level outcome. Otherwise, lifestyle business means awesome lifestyle from your business, which is no sin whatsoever. Who's the guy who makes Overcast? The great podcast player, Marco. He does a podcast as well. Marco Arment. And I forgot the name of his podcast, but it's very good. And I catch it once in a while. and he does overcast and i was just listening to his pod and he was talking about whatever beach town he lives in i won't dox him but i don't know if he's public or not about it because he didn't say but he decides he's going to uh buy the local restaurant and his podcast mates are like no you're gonna screw up the podcast we need you on the pod and he's like yeah you know i i just want to do stuff in the real world and i make enough money and i'm good yeah this all goes back to the counter trend.

18:39So, you know, you could be a victim or you could look at one door closing and two more opening. And that's going to be the opportunity of AI. So I agree a lot with that, Jason, before we move on, I just want to say that for everyone who is technologically savvy, this is going to be an awesome era because you can build apps faster. AI models are getting so much better so quickly. We're seeing increased connectivity with Starlink and Project Kuiper's launching and you know etc so i see the opportunity point for people who are uh ready and able to go after it but what about folks who like drive semis because you and i both think that in 10 years that's going to be entirely automated and there's there are going to be folks that don't upskill into the stuff that you and i understand i don't think we have an answer yet for them and i think we probably should think about that as a society all right founders let's kick off the new year by talking about your website.

19:35If you're launching something new in 2025, or you need to refresh your brand, and I bet you do, you need to use Squarespace. Squarespace makes building a stunning, professional website ridiculously easy. Whether you're selling products, offering services, or just sharing your ideas, Squarespace gives you the tools you need to make it happen. And you know Squarespace is at the cutting edge with AI tools that make building your site easier and faster than ever. For example, its design intelligence tool. It's just like having a world-class designer at your fingertips. You ask it a few questions and their AI takes it from there, building a fully customizable website that's perfectly tailored to your brand in just minutes.

20:12We're talking professional layouts, on-brand visuals, and premium content all ready to go day one. So here's your call to action. Start the year strong. Check out squarespace.com slash twist for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch go to squarespace.com slash twist to get 10 % off your first website or domain purchase that's squarespace.com slash twist i think there'll be an opportunity for some number of them uh in let's say let's say trucking trucking is going to be like a two-stage process they're going to keep the driver in this automation scenario to be a supervisor and they'll probably have two or three of these things uh daisy chain together uh tractors um And they'll just run them for 24 hours.

20:56So you'll be on a 24-hour run, or you'll be on, like, let's say, three eight-hour runs with a two-hour charging break in between, or a refill break in between, or one hour. So the travel time to do this, like, let's say, 20-hour run is going to be, like, seven hours, an hour break, seven hours, an hour break, whatever, something like that. So you'll still have the person in the cabin. They can just sleep. So they're going to be, like, a supervisor. they'll be able to take over like let's say inclement weather happens and the ai they don't want the ai driving the car in sleet snow or there's a traffic jam or there's an accident or something so i think it's going to move to that kind of mode but i wouldn't take that job in i wouldn't go into that career now just like i wouldn't start the career of being a coal miner now absolutely a great idea absolutely but so here's the thing that i think about i think we take a a look at old models, old examples of times of economic and technological change and how that impacted work.

21:56But I think we've been taking people and consistently say, all right, let's automate the physical stuff and move you up the value stack towards information work. And if we do begin to change that broad progression by making information work less valuable and more automated, I do wonder if it's going to be harder to balance employment in the society in the near term in 50 years i bet you were still at four percent unemployment but in the meantime people have mortgages so i generation tool belt right that's our other trend to keep an eye on so sure uh we'll see a lot of people going into trades and artisanal stuff or arts and people might enjoy it more like i have to say like the whole concept of like going and doing tps reports and mind-numbing labor in front of a screen creates its own set of downsides compared to working the land and enjoying being in the fresh air.

22:49I know that. That's not wrong. And speaking of people who are out there in the fresh air building things, it seems that every company in the world has a new push, Jason, for even bigger data centers. We have a graphic prepared for this. We're going to pull up right now. So Meta has a plan to build a data center that's so large, it actually comes with its own map. So I don't know if you saw it's on threads, but here is Mark Zuckerberg showing a superimposition of his future two gigawatt data center on top of the Manhattan map. And Jason, just for folks out there, how much of Manhattan do you think this is covering?

23:2335, 40 percent? It's yeah. I mean, it's all of Central Park. It's yeah, it's giant. It's going from 125th Street down to 34th, maybe. I mean, this is gigantic. That's why I asked the New Yorker how big this is. I was hoping to get streets. So thank you for that. Yeah. A couple of crazy things about this. It's not just the fact that it's very large that is incredibly important. It's also what Zuck is promising. So he is saying that this year, in 2025, Meta AI is going to be an assistant that serves a billion people. That by itself is a pretty big claim. He claims that Llama for their next open source AI model will lead.

24:02And then he says, we're also going to be doing a lot more of our own coding development with AI. So we're going to build this two gigawatt data center, one gigawatt this year, 1.3 million GPUs. And here's the headline number, J.G.L., 60 to$65 billion in investment in CapEx this year. So if you're thinking that Project Stargate is shooting high, so is Meta. And then over in India, Reliance Group, a company we don't talk about because it's not in our remit, is talking about building a three gigawatt data center in two years. Yeah. And then also Anthropic, of course, is working with Amazon on all of their computing needs.

24:38Holy crap. This is kind of crazy. It's more money than even I expected. There is a cash surplus sitting around. And we've talked about it for years. Why does Apple have the largest private equity fund in the world sitting in their bank account? What do they do with that? Like Microsoft, just all this money piling up. and we're talking there's gonna be more and more companies like this where they're gonna just keep uh having the earnings go up cash sitting there what do they do with the cash right if they don't spend it they pay tax on it right okay and when you remember all this repatriation of cash coming in apple had to deal with it coming from ireland and it was like a little bit of a negotiation with the government like okay well we could leave it overseas or we could bring it here you know and Mm-hmm.

25:25Well, now they finally figured out something to do with it and something productive to do with it, which is if you build these data centers, maybe you solve problems that humanity appreciates. The question becomes, well, what if they solve all the problems? What do you do with all this compute? And that's where it's going to get super interesting, I think, because the model sizes might get smaller. the things that humans need to get done might get resolved and in their day-to-day basis you know there's this concept of like surplus and you think about your average mac mini m4 your laptop of the potential compute power it has how much are you using like the average user right now so the answer is 110 okay so you've opened up using chrome two percent exactly so you've got like 75 windows open and you know they've got this amount of data but the truth is you know of all the desktop computers out there and the phones out there we're using a very small percentage of what they're capable of the surplus is extraordinary i wonder and why is that well because there's nothing else to do on your computer you you could fire up 20 programs but you don't have a problem to solve and you you want to go take your kids to gymnastics or get a burger go ride a horse so humanity has a certain number of problems to solve and right now we're backed up on these language models i do wonder if we solve cancer and we solve energy we solve x y and z like what's left to solve and that's going to be a very interesting place to be feels like we're building so much compute here it'll be a dark fiber moment where we have so much fiber and what are we sending over it yeah you can only consume so many movies right we we filled that up with higher quality videos but when we think about the demand question and your point of like what happens when we solve things um we're at least not there yet or even close to it this is a quote from the wall street journal talking to the ceo of anthropic and he said um i'll just quote him the surge in demand we've seen over the last year and particularly the last three months has overwhelmed our ability to provide the needed compute and then he says later on they're going to half a million ships powering the Claude family by 2026.

27:41All that's today, as we think about these massive compute projects, they are predicated on, I think, an anthropic level of increasing compute demand. And Jason, I think, frankly, this brings us to DeepSeq and its R1 model. And the fact that they managed to train the underlying DeepSeq V3 model for something like $6 million, which scared the crap out of a lot of folks. Because if you can build something that's that good for six million dollars you don't need to spend a billion dollars and therefore you probably don't need a hundred thousand five hundred thousand five million nvidia chips and i i'm curious to see if the deep seek breakthroughs that they've shown which uh mark andreessen called the gift to humanity because they are open source um if that is a apparition from the trend or if it is the new trend and i don't think anyone knows yet the answer to that there's going to be a refocus on quality very soon because it does feel like we're getting to the point where it's answering questions there's enough capacity to answer you know a large number of questions or provide a lot of services let's just say for customer support or legal then it's going to be like hey can we slow down for a second and just get make sure the answers are correct oh i see you see what i'm saying like yeah yeah get back to five nines so there if you were doing storage uh and let's say you were building s3 in your amazon okay yeah we how much can we store okay important question okay great what's the throughput of that storage okay great another important question okay we can store a whole bunch we can store a billion photos okay great and how fast can we get them off people's phones okay we can do that in a day um and what's the resiliency of that and how often do they break down and you know how often do we lose photos you know and then you start like okay we need to build a raid array now i'm just excited that we can um be sitting here in 2025 and have an industry that was trying to figure out like i don't know how to like split bills and how to do photo images and filters you know you and i were covering this as journalists for a little bit and building it in my case and investing in it it just feels like we're going to solve some pretty awesome problems in today's market your business is judged by its customer service right we all know that One bad experience, that's it.

30:19Kaput. Customer's gone for life. And you know what? They may start saying negative things about you online and they have the power to do that. So stop thinking about customer experience as just a department. It's actually your entire business, right? That makes sense. And Horatio is the trusted outsourcing partner for hundreds of startups and fast-growing companies looking to deliver exceptional customer experiences. Horatio provides dedicated teams who act as an extension of your brand, delivering world-class support 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Whether it's chat, whether it's email, or even on the phone, Horatio will make sure your customers are happy, loyal, and coming back for more, right?

30:57You want those customers you've already got. Those are the best ones to continue to buy your product or service. And when you have Horatio on your team, that's going to give you the ability to focus on running your business and scaling it. See why fast-growing brands like Built Rewards, Bark, and Dr. Squatch rely on Horatio to provide exceptional customer service. So here's your call to action. Horatio isn't just outsourcing. It's seamless integration with your team. And the best part, their solutions are cost-effective and completely tailored to your business needs. Visit HireHoratio.com slash twist to learn more and get$2 ,000 off your initial setup.

31:37That's HireHoratio.com slash twist. It's awesome to me if, you know, we can just blow everything up and start over and solve these problems. I hope we have empathy, deep empathy for displacement of humans. And I'm going to go off on a little emotional tangent here. We have to remember that when we make this stuff, it has an impact in the real world, right? It does. and we all benefit from it we all make incredible amounts of wealth tons of money just flows to whoever hits the the gusher right and listen i've been there when a gusher gets hit and i had my bucket out and hey whoa you know we hit oil you know it's like uh there will be blood right i was here's what i was thinking of that's a great movie by the way if you haven't seen i mean let's watch it i mean such a great film um let's all watch it and you know you drink everybody's milkshake i drink your milkshake yeah but let's get let's just remember that when that person is crossing the rio grande right and they're coming here to this country to have a better life um or you automate all those truck drivers or the cashiers you know uh give weight to toast and we all, you know, the ordering service.

33:04And hey, you know, all the venture capitalists and the CEOs and everybody gets nice and rich, you know? And oh, wow, this is great. We solved a big problem. Just remember your fellow human beings who helped you build the last business, who you convinced to come join you on that adventure to build the last one that just got displaced. They need a place in the world. And let's have some thoughtfulness about that. I'm glad you said that. I'm very optimistic about us as a species figuring out some good path forward if technology improves at the pace we're thinking. But at the same time, there's an interesting kind of irony to this DeepSeek story because a lot of VCs have put tons of capital to work, backing, anthropic, and open AI, and owning shares in meta that are spending billions of dollars.

33:52And then, Jason, this comes out, and this is a set of data points from artificialanalysis.ai, which I use a lot to track models. And if you look at where DeepSeq R1, which is their OpenAI O1 equivalent ranks, it's darn close to exactly as good as OpenAI's O1 thinking model. It's slower, but critically, look at how cheap it is compared to O1. It's like 8 % of the cost or something like that. It's insanely affordable. and that to me just says that look all the money that you know coastler or whoever put into open ai better get to work because apparently six million dollars and some nerds in china are out there changing their everything but here's the best part for startups that are not open ai or anthropic or one of the giants this is this is great news do you want cool tools that cost less and are open source here you go have fun so i'm going to restate my empathy we need to have empathy for the venture capitalists and for the CEO who have deployed hundreds of billions of dollars only to be wiped out by open source.